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DMDon
09-11-2008, 09:44 PM
Does anyone of a link to an excel spreadsheet used for KCBS scoring? Where I can enter the team names and scores and have it tabulate the totals and rankings. We did a small contest on Labor Day and got the results in the mail today. Its all jacked up. One of our Brethern (BBQ Council)set a new scoring record in pork loin with a score of 40.4532 in fact he got two of them. A 999 should equal 36, I got two of tehm in ribs and they were scored 35.5027. I don't want to embarass the group running the contest, but would like to provide them with an acurate scoring system.

CivilWarBBQ
09-12-2008, 01:04 AM
Are you sure you understand how KCBS scoring works?

The scores are weighted - each attribute is multiplied by a different number to reach the total perfect score. The factors are explained in the KCBS rules. You can get a copy here: http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2008RulesAndRegulations.pdf

Double D's BBQ
09-12-2008, 05:39 AM
My math may be a little off here but I thought three 9's equalled 27! Must be the new math and the inflation factor factored in to the formula:-D

U2CANQUE
09-12-2008, 06:13 AM
spoken like a true accountant....

BBQ_Mayor
09-12-2008, 06:32 AM
Maybe this will help you Don.
19006

Double D's BBQ
09-12-2008, 06:45 AM
Are you sure you understand how KCBS scoring works?

The scores are weighted - each attribute is multiplied by a different number to reach the total perfect score. The factors are explained in the KCBS rules. You can get a copy here: http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2008RulesAndRegulations.pdf

Thanks for posting that. I've been scratching my head lately trying to figure out how the scores can go out to 4 decimal points. Now I understand.

Taste 2.2858
Tenderness 1.1428
Appearance .5714

Total 3.0000

We lost a grand championship in Madison last month by .0006 of a point and last weekend missed fifth in pork by .0002. It just shows you how competitive these contests have become and how every little detail counts.

Sorry if I came of as a smart a$$ in my previous post. Just geeky accounting humour that I couldn't resist!:-D

Que'inKC
09-12-2008, 08:07 AM
Maybe you should let your brother do all the math, he seems pretty good at it...:-)

DMDon
09-12-2008, 10:33 AM
Are you sure you understand how KCBS scoring works?

The scores are weighted - each attribute is multiplied by a different number to reach the total perfect score. The factors are explained in the KCBS rules. You can get a copy here: http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2008RulesAndRegulations.pdf


Yes, I do. Are you sure you read my post correctly. I cooked the contest and the organizers had no idea how the scoring worked. I simply want to provide them with a spread sheet to help them out. BBQ Council understood the request and provided what I am looking for, not an explaination of the rules. So next time I need a copy of the KCBS rules, I'll get in contact with you.

DMDon
09-12-2008, 10:49 AM
Maybe this will help you Don.


19006



Ray,

Thanks for your help with this. That must have been some awesome loin to score in the 40's. I called the contest organizer last night, she had no idea that the scores were all wrong. She kept saying that she had the formulas on a spreadsheet so they must be right. Finally I got her to agree that marks of 999 will score a 36 and that is the max. So when I pointed out your 2 40's she finally realized something was wrong. Did you get your results in the mail?

Jeff_in_KC
09-12-2008, 11:26 AM
Regardless of how someone understands the score, a 36 is as good as you can get. How did Ray get a 40??? Maybe *I* misunderstood the post...

BBQ_Mayor
09-12-2008, 11:40 AM
Ray,

Thanks for your help with this. That must have been some awesome loin to score in the 40's. I called the contest organizer last night, she had no idea that the scores were all wrong. She kept saying that she had the formulas on a spreadsheet so they must be right. Finally I got her to agree that marks of 999 will score a 36 and that is the max. So when I pointed out your 2 40's she finally realized something was wrong. Did you get your results in the mail?

I thought is was awsome! But maybe not that good.

I calculated my scores. They're pretty crappy if you ask me, but I'm not giving my winnings back.:-D


Chicken - 165.1428
Ribs - 155.9998 :icon_sick
Loin - 161.7142
Overall - 482.8568

BBQ_Mayor
09-12-2008, 11:41 AM
Regardless of how someone understands the score, a 36 is as good as you can get. How did Ray get a 40??? Maybe *I* misunderstood the post...


I'm just that good Jeff..:icon_cool

DMDon
09-12-2008, 11:44 AM
Regardless of how someone understands the score, a 36 is as good as you can get. How did Ray get a 40??? Maybe *I* misunderstood the post...


Ok obviously, my post is not as clear as I thought it was.

My daughter and I cooked I one day first time contest.

The contest organizers built there own spreadsheet for scoring.

They awarded the first three places in each category at the contest.

They mailed the results out to the teams.

On ribs I got marks of 999(twice) and they scored it as 35.5something.

In the pork loin category another team(Ray) had two scores in the 40.something.

That is the point I am trying to make, its not possible. They have flaws in the scoring spreadsheet they used.

I just want to help them, by getting them a correct version so they can redo the results correctly. I don't care what they do about the awards they handed out. I would just like to see how results turn out with correct scoring.

I hope this helps explain.

Bride of Roo(BQ'n)
09-12-2008, 12:03 PM
Just curious, but why do you think you should share KCBS scoring with a non sanctioned contest?

Jorge
09-12-2008, 12:08 PM
Just curious, but why do you think you should share KCBS scoring with a non sanctioned contest?

A very fair question.

DMDon
09-12-2008, 12:44 PM
Just curious, but why do you think you should share KCBS scoring with a non sanctioned contest?


In an attempt to help them out. They're goal is to be KCBS sactioned by next year. they had 14 teams this year, so only will need one more for a first year contest. But if they don't make things right this year on the scoring, they will lose us and more than likely others who feel the same way. That will make it more difficult for them to get their 15. I agree that the that the KCBS scoring is probably protected information and them using it violates some guideline, but its not rocket science and some one some where has created their own spreadsheet to recreate this scoring method. Since the contest organizers weren't able to get it right. I would like to help shortern their learning curve with this info.

DMDon
09-12-2008, 12:49 PM
In an attempt to help them out. They're goal is to be KCBS sactioned by next year. they had 14 teams this year, so only will need one more for a first year contest. But if they don't make things right this year on the scoring, they will lose us and more than likely others who feel the same way. That will make it more difficult for them to get their 15. I agree that the that the KCBS scoring is probably protected information and them using it violates some guideline, but its not rocket science and some one some where has created their own spreadsheet to recreate this scoring method. Since the contest organizers weren't able to get it right. I would like to help shortern their learning curve with this info.


ps, If it was a contest where they were making a profit from entry fees after expenses and prize money, I would probably take a different stance. But based on the entry fee and the prize $ given out they lost $ big time. It was put on by the town as a part of their celbration days.

BBQ_Mayor
09-12-2008, 01:04 PM
But based on the entry fee and the prize $ given out they lost $ big time. It was put on by the town as a part of their celbration days.

Lost $800!. Thats what Chad told me Tuesday.

I agree with Don. We need to help these people out to give them a better shot of being sacationed next year or the year after. They did a good job with what little they knew. They just need a push in the right direction.

afreemaniii
09-12-2008, 01:12 PM
The KCBS weighting factors are spelled in their rules and regulations that anyone can download from their site. Any contest in the world could find those and use them if they choose to. Providing a spreadsheet that is known to work and not have flaws in the formulas is a nice gesture and one that doesn't give away any trade secrets the KCBS may have.

It's a shame that the spreadsheet they did use wasn't built properly and therefore created bad scores. They could use any factor they wanted to as long as their spreadsheet didn't have errors in the formulas. Oh well. Hopefully this straightens everything out and next year the same 14 teams return along with a few more to make it a full blown KCBS contest.

Plowboy
09-12-2008, 01:50 PM
Just curious, but why do you think you should share KCBS scoring with a non sanctioned contest?

That is exactly where I was going to go. This is a very good reason why sanctioning by KCBS is a good thing. You go to a non-sanctioned contest... you get what you get.

The only non-sanctioned contests I go to, don't use KCBS scoring or rules. Wouldn't that be like stealing if they did? As a card carrying, dues paying member of KCBS, does it make sense to support a non-sanctioned contest stealing what equates to intellectual property? I think KCBS needs to, tactfully, address this issue that continues to come up.

Plowboy
09-12-2008, 01:54 PM
The KCBS weighting factors are spelled in their rules and regulations that anyone can download from their site. Any contest in the world could find those and use them if they choose to.


They COULD use them, but I doubt that KCBS posted the rules for that purpose. Those rules are copy written and the intellectual property of KCBS. You use them to organize a contest, you are stealing, IMHO.

Jeff_in_KC
09-12-2008, 01:59 PM
Yeah but Todd, those mulitplying factors are just numbers. They aren't a copyright or being infringed upon by using the same numbers that KCBS uses. KCBS chose to make them public and I think it's a good thing that contests want to emulate a KCBS contest. That's why we're getting more and more every year. Three years ago, Garden City used KCBS reps, computers, etc. for a non-sanctioned contest run with KCBS rules in hopes of growing to become sanctioned. The following year, they did not get it done but did last year and are repeating this year (weekend of the Jack). I think it's a great idea for non-sanctioned contests to have an interest in sanctioning and to see what goes into it firsthand.

DMDon
09-12-2008, 02:15 PM
As a card carrying, dues paying member of KCBS, does it make sense to support a non-sanctioned contest stealing what equates to intellectual property? I think KCBS needs to, tactfully, address this issue that continues to come up.


I chose to support the contest because I believe someday it will be a sanctioned KCBS event. The first year it was 3 teams, this year 14. They have to start somewhere and why not use KCBS guidelines, so they don't have to change midstream when they do become sanctioned. Now I realize there are some non sactioned events using KCBS protected material, that never intend to become santioned and there I agree with you.

I also support this contest because it is close to home, a one day cook(ribs, chicken and loin) and I get to spend the day with my 9 year old daughter as my teammate. Our common interests are becoming fewer and fewer, this is one thing that we can still enjoy together.

KC_Bobby
09-12-2008, 02:28 PM
Yeah but Todd, those mulitplying factors are just numbers. They aren't a copyright or being infringed upon by using the same numbers that KCBS uses. KCBS chose to make them public and I think it's a good thing that contests want to emulate a KCBS contest. That's why we're getting more and more every year. Three years ago, Garden City used KCBS reps, computers, etc. for a non-sanctioned contest run with KCBS rules in hopes of growing to become sanctioned. The following year, they did not get it done but did last year and are repeating this year (weekend of the Jack). I think it's a great idea for non-sanctioned contests to have an interest in sanctioning and to see what goes into it firsthand.

Yeah, I think what my bro is saying is that they (competitors at this non-kcbs sanctioned comp) were told the scoring would be done the same as how the IBS (Iowa BBQ Society) scores comps ... which happens to be the KCBS scoring system.

Last night Don mentioned that they had scoring as:
Appearance was half as important as taste and taste was half as important as tenderness.
As in:
App - .5714 per point
Taste - 1.1428 per point :eek:
Tenderness - 2.2858 per point
Just a bit out of order for the scoring system the organizer promoted. And who knows how they got scores over 36, but I want some of that handicap scoring action on my chicken!

Plowboy
09-12-2008, 02:39 PM
Yeah but Todd, those mulitplying factors are just numbers. They aren't a copyright or being infringed upon by using the same numbers that KCBS uses. KCBS chose to make them public and I think it's a good thing that contests want to emulate a KCBS contest. That's why we're getting more and more every year. Three years ago, Garden City used KCBS reps, computers, etc. for a non-sanctioned contest run with KCBS rules in hopes of growing to become sanctioned. The following year, they did not get it done but did last year and are repeating this year (weekend of the Jack). I think it's a great idea for non-sanctioned contests to have an interest in sanctioning and to see what goes into it firsthand.


The rules and scoring system are the property of KCBS. They aren't just numbers. They are part of a system. IMHO, they are publishing the rules so that the members know what they are. They aren't posting into the public domain for any contest to pick up and use.

KCBS will help contests that want to become sanctioned by even helping them run their contest the first year. It happened at Pleasant Valley, MO last year. A KCBS rep actually came in and helped so that this year, it will be sanctioned.

The motivations to help a contest become bigger is great. But I stand by my opinion that using the KCBS scoring system and rules without their approval is wrong.

Just Pulin' Pork
09-12-2008, 04:20 PM
KCBS will help contests that want to become sanctioned by even helping them run their contest the first year. It happened at Pleasant Valley, MO last year. A KCBS rep actually came in and helped so that this year, it will be sanctioned.


Are there KCBS reps in Iowa that are willing to help out? I am asking because I do not know. I love the idea getting more contests. All of us in KC are spoiled. There are contests nearly every weekend, within 30-60 miles from home. If Iowa is wanting to grow and get more contests let them! I understand the argument but come on he is trying to help out a contest that hopefully will have grown year after year!

BBQ_Mayor
09-12-2008, 04:27 PM
Way to stir the pot Don. :icon_shy. And you thought is was going to be an easy question. :wink:

DMDon
09-12-2008, 04:32 PM
Way to stir the pot Don. :icon_shy. And you thought is was going to be an easy question. :wink:


I did think this would be an easy one and done issue.

Plowboy
09-12-2008, 04:47 PM
Are there KCBS reps in Iowa that are willing to help out? I am asking because I do not know. I love the idea getting more contests. All of us in KC are spoiled. There are contests nearly every weekend, within 30-60 miles from home. If Iowa is wanting to grow and get more contests let them! I understand the argument but come on he is trying to help out a contest that hopefully will have grown year after year!

KCBS has a process to help contests like this. They just need to ask.

You are missing the point. There is a way for contests to grow. The KCBS rules and scoring system are not public domain no matter how good intentioned we are or how much we want it to be. This isn't about not wanting the contest to exist. The rules and scores are part of what you pay for as a sanctioned contest organizer... not just a piece of software.

This has been a topic at the board in the past. Again, they have a process if contests want to move toward sanctioning.

DMDon
09-12-2008, 06:07 PM
I thought is was awsome! But maybe not that good.

I calculated my scores. They're pretty crappy if you ask me, but I'm not giving my winnings back.:-D


Chicken - 165.1428
Ribs - 155.9998 :icon_sick
Loin - 161.7142
Overall - 482.8568




Ray,

I totaled ours
chicken 160.5714
ribs 160.5714
loin 146.2856
overall 467.4282

I don't think we should have got a call in chicken, but I think we would have in ribs. the loin sucked

Yakfishingfool
09-12-2008, 07:59 PM
I understand Todd completely. Those that have spent time, money, and effort in making a product, in this case KCBS scoring, deserve to have the proper recognition, and should ensure that the product is being used correctly, for even though they are not presenting it, it does reflect on them. what happens if some comp teams look at this contest and says damn, the scoring sucked! If that's KCBS judging and scoring then I want no part of comps or belonging to that crap. Now KCBS pays for the loss of potential member without ever having a crack at helping.

Now most of the times I have seen this kind of thing it has been an innocent attempt by amateurs to say the least. However, there should be, and probably is according to Todd, a simple way to get the ear of KCBS to help a start up group learn to do this. It should be done as part of KCBS's mission of expansion and should be done for little to no money the first time.

Would you be happy if someone was making BBQ and putting your label on it and the product sucked? Probably not. Surely every member of KCBS should be an advocate for KCBS and point those starting these tournament to them for direction and guidance. And KCBS should welcome these people with open arms and do the first one on the cheap or for free. Scott

PS, my two cents, I have experience with this in NYS after chapters of our parent organization (the NPA) decided to do things without coordinating with us. It cost us a lot of members and even more distressing a lot of political clout. S

Jeff_in_KC
09-12-2008, 09:34 PM
OK so a non-sanctioned contest passes out 9 inch clam shell boxes and tells teams they must use them and the team number must be on top and you can't use anything but leaf lettuce and parsley. So you really think the KCBS has the sole and exclusive rights to this? This is ridiculous and I would guess anyone trying to enforce it would find a difficult time winning in a court of law. now if you somehow got ahold of proprietary software and used that, sure, a problem exists. But there's no way anyone could enforce what figures a contest organizer plops into a spreadsheet. And if it WAS done successfully, this is one farked up world we live in... just MHO.

BBQchef33
09-12-2008, 10:44 PM
I agree with jeff.... along the same lines, using that opposite mindset, then only KCBS contests can cook chicken, ribs, pork and brisket? and if you do, your stealing the rules from KCBS? c'mon

KCBS has one time licensing for first year contests that are significantly cheaper than sanctioning fees. But with that license fee u get the EXPERIENCE and software, and reps and the use of the logo.. etc etc...

but to say they own the weights, or the rules is like saying they own the green leaf lettuce clause too. Not only would that be detrimental to startup contests, but real difficult to enforce. New contests, would feel strongarmed and avoid any perception of an infringment and before we know it we will be doing burger and hot dog contests.

I think they purpose of the one time licensing is to normalize and ensures the teams know they are entering into something with some form of quality control and they will expect the standard rules. For what i believe is 75$ the contest gets the use of the software, they get on the kcbs schedule, and they can get reps(still must be paid for by contest). They get something for that 75$.


just my 2cents. your mileage may vary.

Buster Dog BBQ
09-12-2008, 11:31 PM
Was that the Madrid contest? I wish I had done that one instead. Much closer to home.

Jeff_in_KC
09-13-2008, 12:50 AM
Just a thought here... the American Royal is not sanctioned, is it?

CivilWarBBQ
09-13-2008, 12:56 AM
Yes, I do. Are you sure you read my post correctly. I cooked the contest and the organizers had no idea how the scoring worked. I simply want to provide them with a spread sheet to help them out. BBQ Council understood the request and provided what I am looking for, not an explaination of the rules. So next time I need a copy of the KCBS rules, I'll get in contact with you.

Well excuse me. Now that I have been put in my proper place, I'll be sure not to make the mistake of attempting to help in the future.

Plowboy
09-13-2008, 01:12 AM
Just a thought here... the American Royal is not sanctioned, is it?

Open yes, invitational no.

KCBS runs both contests. You don't have to be sanctioned to have KCBS run your contest. You at least need their permission to use their rules.

Plowboy
09-13-2008, 01:27 AM
I agree with jeff.... along the same lines, using that opposite mindset, then only KCBS contests can cook chicken, ribs, pork and brisket? and if you do, your stealing the rules from KCBS? c'mon

KCBS has one time licensing for first year contests that are significantly cheaper than sanctioning fees. But with that license fee u get the EXPERIENCE and software, and reps and the use of the logo.. etc etc...

but to say they own the weights, or the rules is like saying they own the green leaf lettuce clause too. Not only would that be detrimental to startup contests, but real difficult to enforce. New contests, would feel strongarmed and avoid any perception of an infringment and before we know it we will be doing burger and hot dog contests.

I think they purpose of the one time licensing is to normalize and ensures the teams know they are entering into something with some form of quality control and they will expect the standard rules. For what i believe is 75$ the contest gets the use of the software, they get on the kcbs schedule, and they can get reps(still must be paid for by contest). They get something for that 75$.


just my 2cents. your mileage may vary.

KCBS doesn't own the concept of a BBQ contest. The own the way THEY officiate contests. They own their rules. MIM owns their rules.

It is similar to Coke and Pepsi. They both sell soda pop. The both come in 12 oz aluminum cans with pop tops. They are both sold from soda machines. However, Coke can't use Pepsi's logo or their formula outright.

If it was okay to, in whole, lift the KCBS rules off of the 2008 rules PDF, then why does it have a copyright on it? What is it protecting if not the language contained? It isn't the logo, because that has a TradeMark on it. The logo is protected form the TM.

Like anything legal :cool:, it is all in how far you push the envelope, I guess. Weighting a contest by taste, tenderness and appearance seems similar to "I want to sell my product in 12 oz. cans." But then setting your weights to the exact weights of KCBS is simply copying what they are doing. It isn't like those are some random integers: 1, 2, 3. You don't just pull those out of a hat.

IP isn't cut and dry, which is why there are corporate lawyers out there making millions on this stuff.

Yakfishingfool
09-13-2008, 07:45 AM
Let me expand my thoughts for a moment. This a branding issue. If the product is BBQ competitions and you are using KCBS guidelines it behooves both KCBS and the competition group to brand a similar product. This ensures that the consumer, the contestant, gets a known product. The thrill and excitement associated with a well run and accurately scored BBQ competition. IF you went to a "KISS" competition and the four categories were T-bones, Beans, Salad, and fruit (Big Barry mod), you may still enjoy the comp but it wouldn't be a typical competition sanctioned by KCBS, why? Because they have a brand, a brand of scoring, a brand of items to cook, a brand of the presentation. It is good for everyone involved to be branded, it keeps things consistent. It's how Ray Kroc made his fortune, a McDonalds burger is the same practically all over the world. Sure you get a lobster role in Maine, and a po-boy in Louisiana, maybe even a riblet in Texas, but the foundation is all branded the same. Scott

watertowerbbq
09-13-2008, 08:23 AM
Yeah, I think what my bro is saying is that they (competitors at this non-kcbs sanctioned comp) were told the scoring would be done the same as how the IBS (Iowa BBQ Society) scores comps ... which happens to be the KCBS scoring system.

Last night Don mentioned that they had scoring as:
Appearance was half as important as taste and taste was half as important as tenderness.
As in:
App - .5714 per point
Taste - 1.1428 per point :eek:
Tenderness - 2.2858 per point
Just a bit out of order for the scoring system the organizer promoted. And who knows how they got scores over 36, but I want some of that handicap scoring action on my chicken!

Bobby,

You've got the taste and tenderness values flipped. :icon_blush:

watertowerbbq
09-13-2008, 08:29 AM
They could have used a weighed average of:

appearance = 1
taste = 4
tenderness = 2

Oh wait........................(that would give the same proportional answer):evil::eek::-D

watertowerbbq
09-13-2008, 08:34 AM
I wonder if the NCAA knows that high schools across the nation are participating in their sports? :eusa_clap

DMDon
09-13-2008, 10:35 AM
Well excuse me. Now that I have been put in my proper place, I'll be sure not to make the mistake of attempting to help in the future.

Are you sure you understand how KCBS scoring works?

The scores are weighted - each attribute is multiplied by a different number to reach the total perfect score. The factors are explained in the KCBS rules. You can get a copy here: http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2008RulesAndRegulations.pdf

I kind of thought your first comment was somewhat insulting. I was not asking how the scoring works, but for a spreadsheet version of it. If that was not your intent, then I am sorry.

DMDon
09-13-2008, 10:39 AM
I wonder if the NCAA knows that high schools across the nation are participating in their sports? :eusa_clap


Now that is funny.

Jeff_in_KC
09-13-2008, 03:17 PM
I wonder if the NCAA knows that high schools across the nation are participating in their sports? :eusa_clap

And what about the NFL? They must be livid that the NCAA is so bold as to play 15 minute quarters in football as well. :eek:

Vince RnQ
09-13-2008, 08:54 PM
Dead Horse, party of one, your table is ready.

CivilWarBBQ
09-13-2008, 09:01 PM
Fair enough. Sometimes intent gets misconstrued on forums. No harm no foul.

-gf