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BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 12:39 PM
Congrats to all the winners and anyone who got a call. We got shut out this weekend. We went behind the trailer and cried for a minute or two but it's all good now.


i think everyone did because of the poor judging.. i have not been in the competition end of this stuff very long but i know good bbq and i know what tastes good.... since i refuse to dumb down my bbq for those judges we got beat for it... the food was amazing and yet nothing.. not even a walk.. we got 899,789, 887, 765, and 764 in one category... and then i get a 4 from one judge on APPLE TENDERNESS!!?!? what a joke.. we made a complete flop for the apples and they loved the junk.. you know what it was!?!? A DAMN BOBOLI PIZZA CRUST WITH EVERY LEFT OVER WE HAD IN OUR FRIDGE, FROM PULLED PORK, TO HONEY HAM, TO BLUE CHEESE, MOZZ CHEESE... it was good.. but looked like hell and we took 7th!!!

judgeing at these competitions has become and joke and unless the KCBS changes their judging and gets professionals and some standardized judging into these comps i am done!!!!!

Q Haven
08-19-2008, 01:02 PM
How do you really feel?

Transformer BBQ
08-19-2008, 01:08 PM
judgeing at these competitions has become and joke and unless the KCBS changes their judging and gets professionals and some standardized judging into these comps i am done!!!!!

Sometimes you need to take a breath... and just move on. You'll give yourself a heart attack if you let yourself get too worked up. I'm there with you that sometimes its frustrating as to how you think the scores should be vs what comes out on those sheets (I didn't exactly think the ribs I turned in were going to end up where they did)... and I understand you spent a lot of $$ and all the other issues... I get it, I'm there with you... but...

sometimes you need to realize its just farking bbq... and there is always next weekend.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 01:12 PM
Sometimes you need to take a breath... and just move on. You'll give yourself a heart attack if you let yourself get too worked up. I'm there with you that sometimes its frustrating as to how you think the scores should be vs what comes out on those sheets (I didn't exactly think the ribs I turned in were going to end up where they did)... and I understand you spent a lot of $$ and all the other issues... I get it, I'm there with you... but...

sometimes you need to realize its just farking bbq... and there is always next weekend.


YOU AINT LYING!!!

Jacked UP BBQ
08-19-2008, 01:14 PM
After looking in the judges room for the first time ever, I went from using sauce to geritol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sledneck
08-19-2008, 01:32 PM
judgeing at these competitions has become and joke and unless the KCBS changes their judging and gets professionals and some standardized judging into these comps i am done!!!!!
That is one of the dumbest statements I have ever read

Sledneck
08-19-2008, 01:33 PM
After looking in the judges room for the first time ever, I went from using sauce to geritol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!All espresso jokes aside that is not cool and not funny. These folks spend their own time and money to do this. They should be appreciated .....

Paola Greg
08-19-2008, 01:45 PM
i think everyone did because of the poor judging...

I disagree. The judging was not poor when I did my first comp here in town 5 years ago and finished 64th of 70. And the judging will not be poor this weekend when we cook our 59th contest since that first one. There is both skill and luck involved in our sport/hobby (as in most), and sometimes we don't finish where we wished or expected to. But the one constant that remains, is that if you don't enjoy the time at a contest with friends you make along the way, and are not able to handle both the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, then maybe it's not for you, but don't blame the judges.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 01:46 PM
All espresso jokes aside that is not cool and not funny. These folks spend their own time and money to do this. They should be appreciated .....


They should also be standardized.. and realistic... they are not professionals and i feel if you are going to have professional barbecue comps that you should have professional judges... not someone who like to have a side of sauce with their ribs.. but someone who can judge flavors and combination of flavors... anyone can go and get a stock rub from shop rite and slap it on the smoker and top it with some sweet baby rays...

the problem is these people are one way minds and dont know what real food is.. you want real competition?! get some real judges who know food and have some culinary experience... it can not be based on a i like and i dislike.. it has to do with the way it taste and the tastes go together..

if you dont like spicy then people who use chilis are screwed?!?! thats not fair at all.. that is actually pretty pathetic.. i have tasted some of the competitions food and it is outstanding and some of them dont even get to walk or anything.. this i not just for me this is for everyone.. some of these guys really deserve better scores and some kind of standardized judging....

If there are not professional judges with experience than there is no such thing as a professional barbecue comp...

just my opinion..

goodsmokebbq
08-19-2008, 01:59 PM
Whats wrong with sweet babys rays :-P, seriously though what do want for experience, all CIA grads?

Jacked UP BBQ
08-19-2008, 02:03 PM
Whats wrong with sweet babys rays :-P, seriously though what do want for experience, all CIA grads?

Chit, I love sweet baby rays. How about a masters, better yet a phd in BBQ.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 02:06 PM
Whats wrong with sweet babys rays :-P, seriously though what do want for experience, all CIA grads?


yes... that would be the correct experience needed.. or atleast more than a 3 hour class....

the only thingi am saying is that there should me NO AND I MEAN NO I LIKE THIS OR I DONT LIKE THIS...

that is not how judging works.. it is all wow this has great flavor, wow this box looks nice.. wow that wasabi glaze goes great with sweet rub..

that is how it should be judged.. there should be NO PERSONAL TASTE BUDS... even if it is not your favorite if it still works it still works.. that is why it is comes down to finding out what they like and sticking with it..

but i dont think you should have to go with sweet baby rays and no other spices to make these judges happy.. i just dont think there is a good handle on the judging..


would also like to put this out there that we did not finish dead last and actually did halfway decent but i am still un happy for myself and alot of others who food is awesome and should have been better judges!!!

to much inconsistancey and i have had some agree with me that are very influencial in the bbq world...

Jorge
08-19-2008, 02:14 PM
but i dont think you should have to go with sweet baby rays and no other spices to make these judges happy.. i just dont think there is a good handle on the judging..

OK. How do you explain the fact, that even with judges pulled off the street you see the same teams finishing consistently much more often than not? When you factor in the fact that judges, and cooks both have 'off' days I think the judges get it right much more often than not. You turn in the best product you can turn out on any given day, and hope for the best. That will never change as long as there are real people in the process.

You are talking about judging, which by definition is subjective.

Transformer BBQ
08-19-2008, 02:14 PM
I think you're walking a fine line here... when you make blanket statements on the judges you're in a way insulting the teams that did walk and did do well. In a backhanded way you're saying that if you did well you turned in bland generic food...

Chris won brisket... so were the judges saying his was the plainest that was turned in? He was 1st place brisket at the American Royal last year out of 530? teams... were those judges wrong too?

And as a side note... if you're using a wasabi glaze at a KCBS contest... please feel free to come anywhere I'm competing.

Side Note #2: Chris, your brisket was awesome, and deserving of the scores... (I got to taste it)

YankeeBBQ
08-19-2008, 02:15 PM
wow that wasabi glaze goes great with sweet rub..

Ummm this is a bbq/barbecue/Barbeque (however you want to spell it) competition. Shouldn't the first step be making it taste like bbq ? Just because something tastes great doesn't mean it should do well in a bbq competition.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 02:16 PM
OK. How do you explain the fact, that even with judges pulled off the street you see the same teams finishing consistently much more often than not? When you factor in the fact that judges, and cooks both have 'off' days I think the judges get it right much more often than not. You turn in the best product you can turn out on any given day, and hope for the best. That will never change as long as there are real people in the process.

You are talking about judging, which by definition is subjective.


it is totally subjective and the same teams do win over and over and show good in most events.. but why? is their food that good? I dont know if i believe that.. i think they might just know what the judges want..

BigBarry
08-19-2008, 02:17 PM
i think everyone did because of the poor judging.. i have not been in the competition end of this stuff very long but i know good bbq and i know what tastes good.... since i refuse to dumb down my bbq for those judges we got beat for it... the food was amazing and yet nothing.. not even a walk.. we got 899,789, 887, 765, and 764 in one category... and then i get a 4 from one judge on APPLE TENDERNESS!!?!? what a joke.. we made a complete flop for the apples and they loved the junk.. you know what it was!?!? A DAMN BOBOLI PIZZA CRUST WITH EVERY LEFT OVER WE HAD IN OUR FRIDGE, FROM PULLED PORK, TO HONEY HAM, TO BLUE CHEESE, MOZZ CHEESE... it was good.. but looked like hell and we took 7th!!!

judgeing at these competitions has become and joke and unless the KCBS changes their judging and gets professionals and some standardized judging into these comps i am done!!!!!

OK - first of all, you are fairly new to competition BBQ (and the Brethren) so I'll cut you some slack (for now.)

This is my team's second year competing and here are some thoughts:

- Why do so many teams (across the nation) seem to win consitently? They must be doing something right. in the NE it's I-Que, Lakeside Smokers, Purple Turtles, SIDE, Q-Haven, BBQ Brethren, Anchormen, Swamp Pit, Sledneck, etc. They generally finish in the top 10 in at least one category and many take GC and RGCs at least once a year.

- Yes, the judging can sometimes be frustrating: a 4 or 5 thrown in amongst 7s, 8s and even 9s. That's why they drop the lowest score - so they can weed out a bonehead at each table. We all get pi$$ed off at times with the judging and there are definitely some areas that could use improvement but overall see the previous point.

- We have been disappointed with our placing in some categories and totally surprised in others. We have not broken the top ten in any category but we are getting there. We also have not practiced enough and that is the main reason why we have not gotten better.

- Remember: You, your team members and friends and family may love your food but you have to remember the judges (most of them) have a standard that they are measuring against. Yes - there are issues that need to be addressed in judging and we hope they improve the system.

- Read this site and glean as much as you can re: turn-in boxes, flavor profiles, pictures, winning rubs and sauces (packaged, customized or scratch-made), temps, cooker mods, fuel, times, post-cook, etc. There is so much to learn and we are only beginning to get better. We finished in the middle of the pack overall a few times, and sometimes worse, but we are improving steadily.

- Most importantly: Have fun!!! It's a tough "sport" but it can be rewarding. If you're not having fun you should stop competing.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 02:19 PM
Ummm this is a bbq/barbecue/Barbeque (however you want to spell it) competition. Shouldn't the first step be making it taste like bbq ? Just because something tastes great doesn't mean it should do well in a bbq competition.


that is my point... bbq i not just tomato bases sauces but everyone thinks it is.. that is not the truth at all... glazes and sweet rubs can be bbq.. bbq can be anything you want it to me as long as it is cook low and slow as they say...

but that is the problem with the judges.. they think bbq should be ribs slopped with bbq sauce.. that is not the way it should be.. you should HAVE to make your own rubs... you should have to make your own sauces... and there should be no saucing.. saucing is an excuse to cover your meat.. that why you can go to any bbq joint in the country and get your ribs nakes with nothing on them..

that is real bbq.. not slopped with sauce..

YankeeBBQ
08-19-2008, 02:19 PM
in the NE it's I-Que, Lakeside Smokers, Purple Turtles, SIDE, Q-Haven, BBQ Brethren, Anchormen, Swamp Pit, Sledneck,


Damn Big Barry give me some LOVE. We have been NEBS team of the year for 3 years running. I'm hurt.

I Smell Smoke !!!

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 02:21 PM
OK - first of all, you are fairly new to competition BBQ (and the Brethren) so I'll cut you some slack (for now.)

This is my team's second year competing and here are some thoughts:

- Why do so many teams (across the nation) seem to win consitently? They must be doing something right. in the NE it's I-Que, Lakeside Smokers, Purple Turtles, SIDE, Q-Haven, BBQ Brethren, Anchormen, Swamp Pit, Sledneck, etc. They generally finish in the top 10 in at least one category and many take GC and RGCs at least once a year.

- Yes, the judging can sometimes be frustrating: a 4 or 5 thrown in amongst 7s, 8s and even 9s. That's why they drop the lowest score - so they can weed out a bonehead at each table. We all get pi$$ed off at times with the judging and there are definitely some areas that could use improvement but overall see the previous point.

- We have been disappointed with our placing in some categories and totally surprised in others. We have not broken the top ten in any category but we are getting there. We also have not practiced enough and that is the main reason why we have not gotten better.

- Remember: You, your team members and friends and family may love your food but you have to remember the judges (most of them) have a standard that they are measuring against. Yes - there are issues that need to be addressed in judging and we hope they improve the system.

- Read this site and glean as much as you can re: turn-in boxes, flavor profiles, pictures, winning rubs and sauces (packaged, customized or scratch-made), temps, cooker mods, fuel, times, post-cook, etc. There is so much to learn and we are only beginning to get better. We finished in the middle of the pack overall a few times, and sometimes worse, but we are improving steadily.

- Most importantly: Have fun!!! It's a tough "sport" but it can be rewarding. If you're not having fun you should stop competing.




AMEN!!! GREG YOU SAID ENOUGH!! i have met you and barry and the crew and i know you guys as well as your food!! TRUST ME THIS IS WHAT NEEDED TO BE SAID AND YOU GOT IT OUT THERE WELL!! THANKS

YankeeBBQ
08-19-2008, 02:21 PM
that is my point... bbq i not just tomato bases sauces but everyone thinks it is.. that is not the truth at all... glazes and sweet rubs can be bbq.. bbq can be anything you want it to me as long as it is cook low and slow as they say...

but that is the problem with the judges.. they think bbq should be ribs slopped with bbq sauce.. that is not the way it should be.. you should HAVE to make your own rubs... you should have to make your own sauces... and there should be no saucing.. saucing is an excuse to cover your meat.. that why you can go to any bbq joint in the country and get your ribs nakes with nothing on them..

that is real bbq.. not slopped with sauce..

And that's just "Your Opinion". You can't turn in turtle soup at a chili competition and expect to win so you shouldn't turn in some whacked out flavor profile in a KCBS competition and expect to win.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 02:24 PM
And that's just "Your Opinion". You can't turn in turtle soup at a chili competition and expect to win so you shouldn't turn in some whacked out flavor profile in a KCBS competition and expect to win.


you can turn in turle based chili.. it doesnt matter.. it is still cooked in the same matter.. that is the problem...

i turned in some "whacked flavors" as my first backyard bbq competition which was judges by all "PROFESSIONAL" teams and i won grand champion along with 1st place ribs and 1st place chicken.. so how does that add up????

good pallets are good pallets... bbq has nothing to do with ketchup.. kethchup is for hot dogs and hamburgers.. not bbq.

BigBarry
08-19-2008, 02:25 PM
Damn Big Barry give me some LOVE. We have been NEBS team of the year for 3 years running. I'm hurt.

I Smell Smoke !!!

Sorry!!! I was trying to get this dang response typed up befor eth thread went into limbo!!!

You guys rock!:mrgreen:

Rhapsody
08-19-2008, 02:26 PM
I understand your concern, but in your topic heading you say " professional judging" I think that's where people who have a problem with judging are confused. There is no such thing as a "professional" bbq judge, just as there is no such thing as a " professional" bbq team. You invest alot of time and money into this and you expect the best results, so does the next guy. I am positive that your best barbecue can go against anyone's best in the country, thats the case with everyone. If you are able to put out a product that is exactly how you would like, its going to score well. Just always try to put your best out and don't worry who is eating it, because if its good, its good.

ModelMaker
08-19-2008, 02:28 PM
Sounds to me that your idea of BBQ is somewhat different than the norm. Thus your taste buds are crap, and everbody else is doing ok.......
ModelMaker
Don't start bustin nads fresh out of the gate. There's a reason the constant winners are constant winners.

YankeeBBQ
08-19-2008, 02:29 PM
kethchup is for hot dogs and hamburgers.. not bbq.

Ketchup has no place on a hot dog but I guess that's an argument for another thread.

What is a professional bbq team ?

BigBarry
08-19-2008, 02:30 PM
And that's just "Your Opinion". You can't turn in turtle soup at a chili competition and expect to win so you shouldn't turn in some whacked out flavor profile in a KCBS competition and expect to win.

I am by no means a veteran but I can tell you this simple fact:

You/we were at a K-C-B-S sanctioned BBQ event. Kansas City-style BBQ is sweet and smoky. Plain and simple.

While the judges are not necessarily KC natives, they are generally aware of the flavor profile and stick to it. They also talk amongst themselves and reinforce it with newer judges.

These events are run by the KCBS with judges that (for the most part) are trained BY the KCBS, eating food cooked and presented by KCBS members who know what this means.

There are 100s of styles of BBQ across the US and the world (read Raichlen's books and you'll see). These events are focused on ONE style and we need to cook to that style in order to do well.

Cheers.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 02:30 PM
Ketchup has no place on a hot dog but I guess that's an argument for another thread.

What is a professional bbq team ?


if you get paid if you win it is a professional competition.. hands down..

Jorge
08-19-2008, 02:32 PM
The thread title is mine. I split this topic off from another thread. If the original poster has another title that the feel accurately represents their thoughts they can let me know and I'll make the change to the title.

I understand your concern, but in your topic heading you say " professional judging" I think that's where people who have a problem with judging are confused. There is no such thing as a "professional" bbq judge, just as there is no such thing as a " professional" bbq team. You invest alot of time and money into this and you expect the best results, so does the next guy. I am positive that your best barbecue can go against anyone's best in the country, thats the case with everyone. If you are able to put out a product that is exactly how you would like, its going to score well. Just always try to put your best out and don't worry who is eating it, because if its good, its good.

Jacked UP BBQ
08-19-2008, 02:32 PM
Holy Farking Chit! This is getting way to deep!

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 02:32 PM
I am by no means a veteran but I can tell you this simple fact:

You/we were at a K-C-B-S sanctioned BBQ event. Kansas City-style BBQ is sweet and smoky. Plain and simple.

While the judges are not necessarily KC natives, they are generally aware of the flavor profile and stick to it. They also talk amongst themselves and reinforce it with newer judges.

These events are run by the KCBS with judges that (for the most part) are trained BY the KCBS, eating food cooked and presented by KCBS members who know what this means.

There are 100s of styles of BBQ across the US and the world (read Raichlen's books and you'll see). These events are focused on ONE style and we need to cook to that style in order to do well.

Cheers.


That is correct.. but why just kansas city bbq? so if you are from kansas city you should always win since you are local correct? There is no standard on bbq and just because everyone in kansas city makes their bbq sauces with a tomato base doesnt mean that it is a world wide thing like you said and the judges should judge accordingly..

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 02:33 PM
I Rest My Case.. Good Night...

Rhapsody
08-19-2008, 02:35 PM
The thread title is mine. I split this topic off from another thread. If the original poster has another title that the feel accurately represents their thoughts they can let me know and I'll make the change to the title.


Oops, my mistake. I still subscribe to the theory that if you just put out your best, you will win, no matter who the judges are.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 02:38 PM
Oops, my mistake. I still subscribe to the theory that if you just put out your best, you will win, no matter who the judges are.


i hope i get to try your stuff in philly!! hoping to make it out there to check it out!!

Sledneck
08-19-2008, 02:38 PM
The thread title is mine. I split this topic off from another thread. If the original poster has another title that the feel accurately represents their thoughts they can let me know and I'll make the change to the title.
I could think of a few:rolleyes:

MayDay
08-19-2008, 02:46 PM
Read this post for similar deep stuff from the other side of things...

First (and probably last) time judging (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46301&highlight=time+judging) (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46301&highlight=time+judging) 2 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46301&page=2&highlight=time+judging) 3 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46301&page=3&highlight=time+judging) 4 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46301&page=4&highlight=time+judging) 5 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46301&page=5&highlight=time+judging) 6 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46301&page=6&highlight=time+judging) ... Last Page (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46301&page=12&highlight=time+judging))

All the best to cooks and judges....
__________________
MayDay
Kamado Claypot, Cobb

Transformer BBQ
08-19-2008, 02:46 PM
it is totally subjective and the same teams do win over and over and show good in most events.. but why? is their food that good? I dont know if i believe that.. i think they might just know what the judges want..


It is that good...

Countryhb
08-19-2008, 02:53 PM
wow that wasabi glaze goes great with sweet rub..

If I went into a BBQ joint and was served ribs with a wasabi glaze, I'd be kicking someone's ass. However, if I went into a 2-Michelin Star restaurant and was served the same dish, I imagine I'd probably enjoy it.

Now, if you were turning that in on Iron Chef, perhaps you'd do very well. Unfortunately, most KCBS judges aren't going to have the same palate as a Mario Batali or Ferran Adria. I am learning that the key is to cozy up to those that do very well consistently and try to learn what it is that the judges are looking for. From there, I'll play with the flavors a bit, but I want to keep the base the same. If I decide to go completely outside the normal flavor profile, even if it turns out extraordinary, I am prepared to accept the results.

Don't think for a second that I am completely opposite of you in my feelings of KCBS judging. I have become a huge fan of IBCA events where the judges are basically just pulled from the crowd...no preconceived ideas about specifics they are looking for. They just tell you whether or not your BBQ tastes like good BBQ.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 02:59 PM
If I went into a BBQ joint and was served ribs with a wasabi glaze, I'd be kicking someone's ass. However, if I went into a 2-Michelin Star restaurant and was served the same dish, I imagine I'd probably enjoy it.

Now, if you were turning that in on Iron Chef, perhaps you'd do very well. Unfortunately, most KCBS judges aren't going to have the same palate as a Mario Batali or Ferran Adria. I am learning that the key is to cozy up to those that do very well consistently and try to learn what it is that the judges are looking for. From there, I'll play with the flavors a bit, but I want to keep the base the same. If I decide to go completely outside the normal flavor profile, even if it turns out extraordinary, I am prepared to accept the results.

Don't think for a second that I am completely opposite of you in my feelings of KCBS judging. I have become a huge fan of IBCA events where the judges are basically just pulled from the crowd...no preconceived ideas about specifics they are looking for. They just tell you whether or not your BBQ tastes like good BBQ.


that is what i have been learning and we have turned it into a more friendly sauce and rubs.. but we did win 3rd pork shop with a wasabi plum glaze for nebs.. so they must have had something they liked... i just dont get it is what i was starting or trying to get at...

i will not bash anyone for their food or what they like.. but i am not going to spend 2000k a month going to competitions to have judges tell me they want straight bbq.... once again like in the thread posted above everything you think personally gets left at the door...

flavor is flavor.. if it has good flavor it is a high score wether you prefer it or not..

your right about batali and the alike.. they would serve something like that and that is why it has been trial and errored before and has worked and not worked...


like stated before.. if bbq is sweet baby rays type sauces and such then why at my first backyard bbq comp did i win 1st place ribs with a soy wasabi glaze, 1st place chicken with a plum glaze, and i got grand champion.. this was all judged by competition teams...

so explain that one...

Alexa RnQ
08-19-2008, 03:00 PM
You just need to find your niche.
If you want to experiment with bold, unique flavors, do a local "Iron Chef" comp.
If you want to compete sauceless, do an IBCA comp.

But you simply cannot go to a KCBS comp, claim your purity of ethics don't allow you to cook to the standard, and then stamp your feet and shout that "the system" is farked.

We've learned to cook KCBS successfully, and while we find flaws in its system, it's better than some others out there. We work proactively within that system to improve it when warranted.

ModelMaker
08-19-2008, 03:00 PM
I am by no means a veteran but I can tell you this simple fact:

You/we were at a K-C-B-S sanctioned BBQ event. Kansas City-style BBQ is sweet and smoky. Plain and simple.

While the judges are not necessarily KC natives, they are generally aware of the flavor profile and stick to it. They also talk amongst themselves and reinforce it with newer judges.

These events are run by the KCBS with judges that (for the most part) are trained BY the KCBS, eating food cooked and presented by KCBS members who know what this means.

There are 100s of styles of BBQ across the US and the world (read Raichlen's books and you'll see). These events are focused on ONE style and we need to cook to that style in order to do well.

Cheers.

Don't speak for me. I'm a third year KCBS certified judge and how I judge is not the same as everbody else. I have my own mind and my own thoughts on BBQ. I judge based on what KCBS wants execpt I have my own taste buds and palate. I also cook BBQ and it's not uncommon to be judging BBQ that does not match up to mine, but that has no bearing on what I'm judging on any given Saturday.
You cooks do your best and I give you my best every time I sit down in the tent. Just don't lump us all in the same catagory.
ModelMaker

Scottie
08-19-2008, 03:01 PM
Damn Big Barry give me some LOVE. We have been NEBS team of the year for 3 years running. I'm hurt.

I Smell Smoke !!!


Man, how quick they forget.... :roll: lol Still laughing...

YankeeBBQ
08-19-2008, 03:04 PM
Man, how quick they forget.... :roll: lol Still laughing...

Do I need buy that hat for you ?:mrgreen:

Scottie
08-19-2008, 03:07 PM
Do I need buy that hat for you ?:mrgreen:

Probably... As I am still laughing... Where is the love and respect? I mean, I always think of you guys within the first 10 NEBS teams that I can think of...


Sorry, I better quit before Big Barry gets mad at me for having such a laugh.... :icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon _shy:icon_shy:icon_shy

Transformer BBQ
08-19-2008, 03:07 PM
You've pointed out why in your post... Entries in a NEBS grilling contest and in a non-KCBS contest (making that assumption since I can't imagine comp teams showing up to judge rather than compete in a KCBS event)... are both going to be very very different than what's turned in for the 4 categories in a KCBS event...

Transformer BBQ
08-19-2008, 03:11 PM
Probably... As I am still laughing... Where is the love and respect? I mean, I always think of you guys within the first 10 NEBS teams that I can think of...


Sorry, I better quit before Big Barry gets mad at me for having such a laugh.... :icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon _shy:icon_shy:icon_shy


He has one tough weekend and wow... off the radar.

I mean at least in the top 12 I'd mention ISS!...

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 03:11 PM
You've pointed out why in your post... Entries in a NEBS grilling contest and in a non-KCBS contest (making that assumption since I can't imagine comp teams showing up to judge rather than compete in a KCBS event)... are both going to be very very different than what's turned in for the 4 categories in a KCBS event...


then how come most if not all the judges that did nebs did the kcbs?

Countryhb
08-19-2008, 03:11 PM
like stated before.. if bbq is sweet baby rays type sauces and such then why at my first backyard bbq comp did i win 1st place ribs with a soy wasabi glaze, 1st place chicken with a plum glaze, and i got grand champion.. this was all judged by competition teams...


I was once told by a very wise man, "If what you did yesterday still looks big today, you haven't done much today." OK, maybe I wasn't directly told that, but you get my drift. Stop dwelling on how you did in your first backyard...it don't mean CHIT. Either adjust your cooking for KCBS standards, cook in events sanctioned by another body, or take up catering, because it sounds like you are looking for people to kiss your arse about your food, not judge it against a standard, and that's what catering is all about...people going ga-ga over your food.

Sledneck
08-19-2008, 03:12 PM
Probably... As I am still laughing... Where is the love and respect? I mean, I always think of you guys within the first 10 NEBS teams that I can think of...


Sorry, I better quit before Big Barry gets mad at me for having such a laugh.... :icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon _shy:icon_shy:icon_shyI think it is even funnier that I made the list:eek:

BigBarry
08-19-2008, 03:12 PM
like stated before.. if bbq is sweet baby rays type sauces and such then why at my first backyard bbq comp did i win 1st place ribs with a soy wasabi glaze, 1st place chicken with a plum glaze, and i got grand champion.. this was all judged by competition teams...

so explain that one...

It's easy - NEBS is grilling. Open grilling. You can turn in anything and hope it "wows" the judges. They welcome and even might expect "interesting" flavors and meat selections. It's not the same with KCBS.

We got 5th place grilling for both fruit and wings in previous contests (woo:tongue:). We used a bourbon chipotle maple glaze on pineapple and an even spicier profile for our wings. They tasted great and I was glad we placed but I would never do that in a KCBS event.

Scottie
08-19-2008, 03:14 PM
He has one tough weekend and wow... off the radar.

I mean at least in the top 12 I'd mention ISS!...


No shazam or nothing. Just poof... They're gone... I was thinking more like the top 13... And that is only if Doug is with them...

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 03:17 PM
This Has Nothing To Do With My Turn Ins Or My Food... It Is What It Is.. You Guys Miss The Point And It Is All About The Judges... There Is No Such Thing As Standard Bbq... If There Is I Guess I Am Missing Something.. Thats Why Everything Is Different..

Countryhb
08-19-2008, 03:27 PM
This Has Nothing To Do With My Turn Ins Or My Food... It Is What It Is.. You Guys Miss The Point And It Is All About The Judges... There Is No Such Thing As Standard Bbq... If There Is I Guess I Am Missing Something.. Thats Why Everything Is Different..

So you did well in a backyard and now you can't score well in a comp? You must be right...it's all the judges fault and has nothing to do with your turn ins or your food.

Smokin Gator
08-19-2008, 03:27 PM
.. i think they might just know what the judges want..

In any competition I can think of were there is judging a competitor would certainly strive for this. Anytime The Kapn and I are talking about what we are doing or want to do it is with the backdrop of what the judges want... NOT what we want.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 03:31 PM
So you did well in a backyard and now you can't score well in a comp? You must be right...it's all the judges fault and has nothing to do with your turn ins or your food.


We have done out share of comps and have gotten to walk at every single one... so i guess our good i pretty damn good... i am just trying to understand what the judges want...

we got plenty of hardware to prove it.. we took home a lot of stuff trust me..

ONCE AGAIN.. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY FOOD OR TURN INS.. HAS TO DO WITH THE INCONSITENT JUDGES NOT FOR ME BUT FOR ALL.. bringing it up thinking that something needs to or has to be done.. if you feel different thats fine.. but this is by no means towards just me so take a deep breathe!!

Transformer BBQ
08-19-2008, 03:34 PM
then how come most if not all the judges that did nebs did the kcbs?

I don't know how you'd know that the judges were the same... but it doesn't really matter. Let's say they were.

Actually lets use the apple category... since we know those are the exact same judges. The apples could very well have been a NEBS grilling category. Judges are looking for creativity, a huge variety of tastes, textures... and are really looking for people to think outside the box on this one. This applies to all NEBS grilling events... do a search on here and you'll find some really incredible looking things.

KCBS contests are looking for BBQ... Memphis/Kansas City/North Carolina/Texas/alabama or a version of these American BBQ staples... KCBS contest isn't looking for Japanese inspired fusion food, or italian breaded chicken... or even buffalo wing sauce...

The grilling event is the time for that interesting twist... regadless of your personal tastes and thoughts on what these should really be about... you're going to go broke and need blood pressure medication if you can't sort of accept KCBS contests for what they are.

Jorge
08-19-2008, 03:35 PM
Probably... As I am still laughing... Where is the love and respect? I mean, I always think of you guys within the first 10 NEBS teams that I can think of...


Sorry, I better quit before Big Barry gets mad at me for having such a laugh.... :icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon _shy:icon_shy:icon_shy


Did you type that left handed?:icon_shy

BBQchef33
08-19-2008, 03:37 PM
it is totally subjective and the same teams do win over and over and show good in most events.. but why? is their food that good? I dont know if i believe that.. i think they might just know what the judges want..



Yeah.. i think u got it..

It IS THAT GOOD... AND they are not going to wreck the judges taste buds with wasabi.. or licorice, or to much of or to prevelant of anything.

the products of the top teams like Cool smoke, I-que, I smell smoke, Mike Davis, Scotty J, PelletEnvy, JOS, etc .. is so good that no matter where they go, they win or place. They have honed their products to the point where based on the judging criteria of appearance/tenderness/taste, they will score 7-8-9s consistently. You do NOT have to place in the top to win, but u have to have consistency and a product that will not bottom out(try wasabi, just once and you'll see what I mean).

On a side note regarding the concept of trained palletes from CIA..
Case in point.. At guitarbeque one year, we had a new team next to us.. The pitmaster was a professional chef, 20 years restaurant and catering and CIA grad.. he was convinced that his homemade sauce was the best thing since sliced pineapples. He called me over to taste it as it was boiling away on the stove. He had beef and pork bones in there and a load of other colorful things. Plan was, once it reduced he puts in in the blender and makes sauce. Ok.. fine.. i tasted it and it was great..
for a wedding
maybe a graduation
or a confirmation party/bah-mitzvah
but NOT BBQ..
It was loaded with black bean/or anise/or 5 spice... something along that licorice profile. I told him its good stuff, but its not BBQ, and the judges will trash him.. he declined my advice and came in DAL. Was the food bad..NO.. was it BBQ NO.. there ARE expectations in this sport, not rocket science

IMO, fulfilling those expectations is part of the challenge and yeah, they vary. Having the ability to produce a consistently good product, regardless of the judges palette and preferences its what makes those top teams stand out and what we are trying to archive. Regardless of all the containers on my prep table labeled secret stuff and super secret stuff, there is no secret ingredient, no secret technique.. its all consistency and attention to detail and a little bit of luck.

Blaming the judges is just a cop out.. i did it once(happened to be ribfest 05 or 06) and got lectured by the good doctor.. he made me realize it wasn't the judges.. they liked my stuff, i got 7-8-9.... and some 5-6... what it was was that someone else got more 9's more 8's and more 7's and less 5-6s. My stars were not in alignment that day. Its that simple.. Your not competing alone, your competing against other pitmasters and without being compared to them, you have to beat them... and it has to be done blindly.. so its not the judges that make you loose.. its the teams around you.. (<-- I Blame I Smell Smoke and I-Que. Its ALL their fault)

Its a sport, its supposed to be fun and when it stops being fun, and you start to over analyze, its time to take a break.

motley que
08-19-2008, 03:39 PM
As a judge I would prefer to get away from honey ribs and get a rib with no sauce so I can taste only meat

However I judge to the best of my ability and what I like is different than others

Last week I tasted a chicken turn in with a spicier sauce. Got 9's from me. The woman next to me gave it a 6 as it was too much for her. That's why people keep it sweet and plain

Just my perspective

Q Haven
08-19-2008, 03:42 PM
The judges had another bad day lol....

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 03:43 PM
I don't know how you'd know that the judges were the same... but it doesn't really matter. Let's say they were.

Actually lets use the apple category... since we know those are the exact same judges. The apples could very well have been a NEBS grilling category. Judges are looking for creativity, a huge variety of tastes, textures... and are really looking for people to think outside the box on this one. This applies to all NEBS grilling events... do a search on here and you'll find some really incredible looking things.

KCBS contests are looking for BBQ... Memphis/Kansas City/North Carolina/Texas/alabama or a version of these American BBQ staples... KCBS contest isn't looking for Japanese inspired fusion food, or italian breaded chicken... or even buffalo wing sauce...

The grilling event is the time for that interesting twist... regadless of your personal tastes and thoughts on what these should really be about... you're going to go broke and need blood pressure medication if you can't sort of accept KCBS contests for what they are.



our apple category was a joke and we made it a joke because we didnt have the time to prepare apples... we had other stuff on our minds and we placed 7th in apples with a rediculous thing that you wouldnt even believe.. that is my point..

i am not over analizing anything and if you guys re read all of your posts you will see what i mean..

like poobah said.. you figure out what they like and what works and stick with it.. perfect it.. and then make it consistent and that wins.. but since when has someone come and made a standard on bbq???

we have used some off the wall sauces and have come in good shape... that guys seemed a little off the wall to me to but have won stuff with crazy stuff and that is the fun of it and trust me i am not bitching, complaning or anything..

it is just trying to figure out what the judges like and making it over and over again.. what is bbq!?!? someone please tell me

how do you make your sauceS???

i just dont get the standard on bbq when there is no standard.. not one place on the kcbs web site does it say this is the standard for judging.. m

think i am going to take a judging class and find out!!!! ON MY WAY!!

BigBarry
08-19-2008, 03:46 PM
Probably... As I am still laughing... Where is the love and respect? I mean, I always think of you guys within the first 10 NEBS teams that I can think of...


Sorry, I better quit before Big Barry gets mad at me for having such a laugh.... :icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon _shy:icon_shy:icon_shy

Keep on laughing!!

I don't get mad...umm, what was I supposed to say...

Oh yeah, I get eeeeeeeeeven!!!!:mad::icon_pissed:eek::biggrin:

Sledneck
08-19-2008, 03:49 PM
how do you make your sauceS???


FEDEX!

Jorge
08-19-2008, 03:50 PM
think i am going to take a judging class and find out!!!! ON MY WAY!!


Giddyup!:wink::lol::icon_cool

jbrink01
08-19-2008, 03:53 PM
[quote=BBQSMYBFF;715929]
think i am going to take a judging class and find out!!!! ON MY WAY!![/quot

Taking a judging class will be good for you to do, but don't expect to learn any tricks / tips / or secrets. The class I took had pretty much middle of the road BBQ. What I took away from that class, aside from practice and procedual information, was not to be overly hard on someone if they don't turn in exactly what you personally like. Judge each entry based on it's own merits.

Just cook your best, assuming that sweet with limited heat and plenty of smoke is the rule, and try not to screw up any of the easy stuff.

PimpSmoke
08-19-2008, 03:58 PM
Figure out your definition of "best".

If it does not fall in line with the usual winning KCBS entry, then cook somewhere else.

Thats just the bottom line.

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 04:01 PM
Figure out your definition of "best".

If it does not fall in line with the usual winning KCBS entry, then cook somewhere else.

Thats just the bottom line.


but what is the best?

brown sugar, paprika, garlic, onion power, salt, pepper,and some other spices... rubbed on a topped with store bought sauce or a normal sweet sauce?!

if they are going to be subjective judging why are they having any standards at all?? it just doesnt add up.. i dont care either way as i really enjoy hanging out and partying, and meeting all the people and such..

i am just wondering what kcbs and their judges define as good bbq...

BBQchef33
08-19-2008, 04:02 PM
think i am going to take a judging class and find out!!!! ON MY WAY!!


oh chit. Ding Ding Ding Ding!!

If you havent taken a judging class, and your not CBJ, then it all makes sense. u need to take that class and see what 'the standards' are...

but they are not standards, they are expectations.

The class explains what a balanced flavor profile is, as opposed to I hate nutmeg and i'll give it a 3. But you as a judge must be able to determine that balance, and as said before, if a judge says I hate nutmeg and scored it low, he just did a disservice. But if he/she said "all i taste is nutmeg, and no meat", well so much for well balanced. Thats why IMO, NOT doing anything to bold or off the wall will get u higher scores.. do not risk overbearing or confusing the judge as to what they are eating.

With that in mind, those classes are level setting, what is right.. what is wrong, but not setting any standards. i dont believe there are any.. Thats where the people factor comes in.. and when you say judging... you know theres the people factor. If there were fixed standards, then a computer can do the judging. What fun would that be. ??

BBQSMYBFF
08-19-2008, 04:06 PM
oh chit. Ding Ding Ding Ding!!

If you havent taken a judging class, and your not CBJ, then it all makes sense. u need to take that class and see what 'the standards' are...

but they are not standards, they are expectations.

The class explains what a balanced flavor profile is, as opposed to I hate nutmeg and i'll give it a 3. But you as a judge must be able to determine that balance, and as said before, if a judge says I hate nutmeg and scored it low, he just did a disservice. But if he/she said "all i taste is nutmeg, and no meat", well so much for well balanced. Thats why IMO, NOT doing anything to bold or off the wall will get u higher scores.. do not risk overbearing or confusing the judge as to what they are eating.

With that in mind, those classes are level setting, what is right.. what is wrong, but not setting any standards. i dont believe there are any.. Thats where the people factor comes in.. and when you say judging... you know theres the people factor. If there were fixed standards, then a computer can do the judging. What fun would that be. ??


see now all it takes it an open mind and open arms to explain what i have been trying to say.. thanks bbq that is what i mean and you hit the nail on the head!!!

Scottie
08-19-2008, 04:11 PM
Keep on laughing!!

I don't get mad...umm, what was I supposed to say...

Oh yeah, I get eeeeeeeeeven!!!!:mad::icon_pissed:eek::biggrin:

Oh heck.. We even carried it on via private emails... Damn near had Steve running off the road, he was laughing so hard... He finally got to post the picture of the hat that he was going to get me. Sounds like he might get a multi discount for buying one for Brendan too.... 8-)

PimpSmoke
08-19-2008, 04:12 PM
Figure out your definition of "best".

If it does not fall in line with the usual winning KCBS entry, then cook somewhere else.

Thats just the bottom line.


Note bold, if you don't know your own personal opinion of "best" I can't help you.



And the other side is the "winning" KCBS entry.

butt head
08-19-2008, 04:30 PM
what happens if they use pro judges and you still don't win?:rolleyes:

SmokeInDaEye
08-19-2008, 04:31 PM
I think it is even funnier that I made the list:eek:

Funnier still, I made the list and I've only done 5 KCBS contests!:eek:

Seriously, though, I came into my first one (New Paltz, in fact, 2 years ago) thinking my home made sauce and flavor profiles were all that. Got handed my arse on a plate.

I was pissed at the judges, my team, everyone. But I regrouped and spent the winter reading this site and learning from all the talent that resides here.

Second contest, I broke the top 20. Next contest, broke the top 12 (and a 2nd place call), then the top 10 (and a first place call), then the top 4 a couple weeks ago. Next contest, I want to get two calls. Baby steps.

And now I save all the crazy recipe sh*t for grilling contests.

Buster Dog BBQ
08-19-2008, 04:53 PM
Maybe you should take a judging class and then judge a contest and you can get a real feel for what is being turned in. Everyone thinks their BBQ is good and so do their friends and families. They are the worse ones to listen to.

Countryhb
08-19-2008, 04:55 PM
i think everyone did because of the poor judging.. i have not been in the competition end of this stuff very long but i know good bbq and i know what tastes good.... since i refuse to dumb down my bbq for those judges we got beat for it... the food was amazing and yet nothing.. not even a walk..
...judgeing at these competitions has become and joke and unless the KCBS changes their judging and gets professionals and some standardized judging into these comps i am done!!!!!

Perhaps if you started by asking what a judge looks for when judging, as opposed to flaming the entire KCBS judging crew, you would have gotten an answer like BBQChef's 4 1/2 pages ago...

carlharper
08-19-2008, 06:45 PM
BBQSMYBFF:

I have re-read all of these posts............Number 32 could have been my favorite if it had only been true. Your retirement from competition is probably in order, at least until you have had a chance to become a CBJ and judge a few contests. I'd love to see how you apply your standards to your fellow competitors.

Let us know next year.

CajunSmoker
08-19-2008, 06:51 PM
I just read this whole thread and held off on posting. The only thing I would add that hasn't been said already is this.

If your not thick skinned enough to let someone judge your food without getting your feelings hurt, maybe you should find a new hobby, cause as long as HUMANS are judging, you are going to have differing tastes and opinions.

pigmaker23
08-19-2008, 08:03 PM
And thats the way it is, August 19, 2008. its a BBQ contest, thats all it is, as someone who is not used to finishing in double digit territory, I can say that Highland was a bloodbath. :sad:

BUT it was also a wakeup call, :-D the flavor profile is changing and the judges are excited about newly tweaked sauces, rubs etc, the mission now is to find out what new flavors are producing results. The best teams in country have discovered what works where and they adjust to the contest. Johnny Trigg can cook in TX, MO, MD, or VT and always be in the top ten, its all about consistancy with minor adjustments to the region.

enough said...

Buster Dog BBQ
08-19-2008, 08:12 PM
As my friend Smokin Clone once said...."Did the team with the most points win?" if so it was judged correctly.

MilitantSquatter
08-19-2008, 08:34 PM
Funny... I though the judging was pretty good at HV Ribfest !! :biggrin:

It's a hobby, it's a crapshoot/gamble but you've got to put yourself in the position to be lucky by cooking and presenting decent stuff.

If you don't like the rules, change them by starting your own contest with rules for judging you like or offer a clear plan for KCBS to consider.

I'm not sure I buy into the fact that judges palates are changing to new rubs/sauces/marinades etc.. It's one of those things that if enough people begin saying it, then it will be believed to be true without anything to go by other than some paper with scores written on it, not knowing who judged it or why it was scored as it was.

As far as being a "professional" (judge or cook)... I've never subscribed to that designation. You're a BBQ cook/judge.. nothing more nothing less and you might win some $ while your at it. You play by the rules and just because you paid to enter a contest doesn't mean any of us are better BBQ cooks than the guy whose never entered a contest. For those lucky enough to get paid by someone to cook at a contest even if they don't win.. those are professional.
To put it in perspective...I have several aunts who play BINGO at the local senior and church centers several times a month. They win money sometimes.. Think they are "professional" ?

CTSmokehouse
08-19-2008, 09:02 PM
I don't know how you'd know that the judges were the same... but it doesn't really matter. Let's say they were.

Actually lets use the apple category... since we know those are the exact same judges. The apples could very well have been a NEBS grilling category. Judges are looking for creativity, a huge variety of tastes, textures... and are really looking for people to think outside the box on this one. This applies to all NEBS grilling events... do a search on here and you'll find some really incredible looking things.

KCBS contests are looking for BBQ... Memphis/Kansas City/North Carolina/Texas/alabama or a version of these American BBQ staples... KCBS contest isn't looking for Japanese inspired fusion food, or italian breaded chicken... or even buffalo wing sauce...

The grilling event is the time for that interesting twist... regardless of your personal tastes and thoughts on what these should really be about... you're going to go broke and need blood pressure medication if you can't sort of accept KCBS contests for what they are.



Well said...

Yours in BBQ and Grilling,

Cliff

CTSmokehouse
08-19-2008, 09:06 PM
[QUOTE=MilitantSquatter;716189]Funny... I though the judging was pretty good at HV Ribfest !! :biggrin:


Congrats on RGC...way to go BBQ Brethren!


Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

Cue's Your Daddy
08-19-2008, 09:22 PM
http://www.sportfishermen.com/p/?p=NTAwL21lZGl1bS9EU0NGOTg3NC5KUEc=
I have a few questions.. If u say your team has so many metals, why did u compete in a backyard event.. also, this is your rib turn in box, it looks horrible...Not trying to come at you, but the way you make it sound is that your bbq is the best there ever is, was and will ever be. My brother and i came in 3rd in chicken, we did use sweet baby rays as a base but added stuff to it, but according to u its not real bbq. If u want our trophy, u can have it, its not why we compete. In chicken we had 2 judges give us all 9's and one judge give us 4,5,5.. WHATEVER. get over it.. BBQ is ahobby for us, a love, once u make it more then that it is a job and you lose the love. Your BBQ probably kicks A@# and i would love to try it, hopefully at the next contest over a beer.. CHEERS BRO

Bbq Bubba
08-19-2008, 09:45 PM
it is totally subjective and the same teams do win over and over and show good in most events.. but why? is their food that good? I dont know if i believe that.. i think they might just know what the judges want..

Bingo!!

http://www.sportfishermen.com/p/?p=NTAwL21lZGl1bS9EU0NGOTg3NC5KUEc=

And trust me, this isin't it!!
You could have saved a lot cyberspace by showing this pic with your original complaint.....:icon_sleepy

Muzzlebrake
08-19-2008, 10:17 PM
anyone get 3's? one for taste one for tenderness
I did. sandwiched between an 8 and a 7 and I think a 7 and a 6
now I knew it wasn't that good, but come on man, a 3? that farker better have spit that all over the person across from him to be that bad

and how can you make rare tuna any more tender?

BBQ Grail
08-19-2008, 10:17 PM
And to think I didn't want to give my impressions on my first time judging because I didn't want a fire storm to start.

I'm feeling pretty crappy about myself right now. I'd never judged a competition before, but can Que with the best of them. Here I thought I'd done a good job, but after reading this thread I find out I'm really just an old, geritol eating, non-professional with no taste buds who doesn't know he difference between sauce types.

I guess I'll go back to using my gasser and boiling ribs.

Anyone seen my KC Masterpiece?

StLouQue
08-19-2008, 10:28 PM
judgeing at these competitions has become and joke and unless the KCBS changes their judging and gets professionals and some standardized judging into these comps i am done!!!!!

Professional judges? What, like chefs? Right. There's a group that has nothing better to do on Saturday morning. Where do you suppose you're going to find 36 food professionals to judge 'que? Do you have any idea how many competitions occur every weekend? Me neither, but it's a LOT. Oh, and aren't professionals typically, y'know... paid? Who do you imagine is going to foot the bill to compensate these so-called professional judges? Yep, competitors.

Look, I'm a first year judge, and I've never competed. I judge because I love barbecue, I crave the smell of the smoke and I enjoy the company of my fellow CBJs Ė people who often drive across state lines, at their own expense. I'm learning. In fact, I'm learning that I may be too generous with 7s, 8s, and 9s. Am I a better judge today than I was at the beginning of the season? Absolutely. And I'll be even better next year.

Dude, you've taken a sucker punch at good people who deserve better. You owe them an apology for your blanket insinuations. While I agree with a couple points you've stated in this thread, I feel sorry for you that you chose a very ugly way to express yourself.

Consider this for improving both barbecue and life: Stop injecting or glazing your product with sour grapes. Doing so is neither appealing or appetizing.

ique
08-19-2008, 10:58 PM
LOL, Who are those I Smell Smoke guys again? :lol::lol::lol:

I'm glad I'm not cooking New Holland this weekend, payback is a bitch and I'd bet Steve puts in a hell of a cook.


but that is the problem with the judges.. they think bbq should be ribs slopped with bbq sauce..

How do you know this? Have you cooked many KCBS events? Have you ever tasted entries that have won a KCBS event?

In my opinion winning a KCBS contest has little to do with what rubs or sauces you use (with the exception of wasabi glazes). Its all about cooking the meat properly so its tender and juicy... Its a meat contest, not a rub/sauce/glaze contest.

No sauce or glaze is going to help a dry brisket or a tough rib... FWIW, our pork and brisket entries had very little sauce on them.

BBQ Grail
08-19-2008, 11:05 PM
Sounds like:

http://www.sallyminker.com/art/2-d/images/grapes-print.jpg

CTSmokehouse
08-19-2008, 11:10 PM
In my opinion winning a KCBS contest has little to do with what rubs or sauces you use (with the exception of wasabi glazes). Its all about cooking the meat properly so its tender and juicy... Its a meat contest, not a rub/sauce/glaze contest.

No sauce or glaze is going to help a dry brisket or a tough rib... FWIW, our pork and brisket entries had very little sauce on them.

I truly agree... it is not what you put on your meat it is how you cook it... if you cook it right the judges will know...and you will be rewarded accordingly... unless you do the wasabi glaze thing...

Listen to Chris... he is a champ...great advice!!!

Thanks Chris,

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

Rookie'48
08-20-2008, 12:45 AM
As a judge I would prefer to get away from honey ribs and get a rib with no sauce so I can taste only meat....Last week I tasted a chicken turn in with a spicier sauce. Got 9's from me. The woman next to me gave it a 6
I've got the same tastes. But when judging, I try to grade each entry on its own merits. Although when I think that there's just a bit of heat another judge might be on fire.
like poobah said...perfect it.. and then make it consistent and that wins.. but since when has someone come and made a standard on bbq??? i am going to take a judging class and find out!!!! ON MY WAY!!
Take the class by all means, but listen to the instructor when he tells you what the rules are.

Maybe you should take a judging class. Everyone thinks their BBQ is good and so do their friends and families. They are the worse ones to listen to.
As my friend Smokin Clone once said...."Did the team with the most points win?" if so it was judged correctly.
The last two posts are self explanitory.

CivilWarBBQ
08-20-2008, 07:51 AM
You just need to find your niche.
If you want to experiment with bold, unique flavors, do a local "Iron Chef" comp.
If you want to compete sauceless, do an IBCA comp.

But you simply cannot go to a KCBS comp, claim your purity of ethics don't allow you to cook to the standard, and then stamp your feet and shout that "the system" is farked.

We've learned to cook KCBS successfully, and while we find flaws in its system, it's better than some others out there. We work proactively within that system to improve it when warranted.

Amen.

The bottom line is that if the system were really totally broken and judging so random you wouldn't see the same teams winning consistently over the course of each season.

There are rules to the game, both written and unwritten, and that is what is necessary in order to have a barbecue contest. If you don't like the KCBS rules then don't play, but claiming KCBS is a "bad game" makes as much sense as trying to play baseball at a football game and complaining that nobody likes what you are doing.

Scottie
08-20-2008, 08:34 AM
LOL, Who are those I Smell Smoke guys again? :lol::lol::lol:

I'm glad I'm not cooking New Holland this weekend, payback is a bitch and I'd bet Steve puts in a hell of a cook.


Why do you think I can do it... He'll forget about it the next time he see's me. Unless I get lucky and get my bung pulled, then I would see him in October. I'm just getting him all riled up for you guys out East... :twisted:

BBQSMYBFF
08-20-2008, 08:52 AM
SOUNDS LIKE A BUNCH OF CRY BABY WOMEN TO ME... WAH WAH WAH.. LOL

This has turned into a typical forumn site.. bunch of people with nothing better to do than when someone makes a normal unhappy post the jump all over his **** because you have nothing better to do.. there is no such thing as standard bbq and no one can tell me there is..

the judges are regular people and like i said bring in their likes and their dis likes into judging which should not be...

that was a backyard bbq contest i did a while ago and you can say all you want but this is not a farking presentation event.. it is a cooking event..

so just like muzzlebrake said.. how the fark do you get a 3 sandwiched in with 7s??? i dont give a **** what you use or what kind of stuff you cook... you got a problem with wasabi glaze?? thats because you all good bbq with sauce... and for you guys to say you use baby rays... well that is just farking rediculous.. make your own chit..

you want to jump on my **** and ridicule me that is fine... i dont care because i made a statement and thats that..

if you got the time to sit and play with parsley for four house and play with your meat go rigth ahead.. the food is what matters...

Podge
08-20-2008, 09:02 AM
We can all b$tch about judging all day long.. but at the end of most contests, and at the end of the year, the cream still rises to the top. Check out the pickled pig web site, all those great teams in the top 25 and the ones with all those grands are damn good cooks... Great cooks !!.. The law of averages prevails.

Inconsistent judging can make mediocre cooks lucky and great cooks unlucky.

It is what it is.

goodsmokebbq
08-20-2008, 09:06 AM
If you don't like the program, turn the channel...

SmokeInDaEye
08-20-2008, 09:08 AM
Why do you think I can do it... He'll forget about it the next time he see's me. Unless I get lucky and get my bung pulled, then I would see him in October. I'm just getting him all riled up for you guys out East... :twisted:

I really appreciate your generosity, Scottie. Looking forward to getting my butt wooped this weekend.

Alexa RnQ
08-20-2008, 09:09 AM
SOUNDS LIKE A BUNCH OF CRY BABY WOMEN TO ME
The difference between you and me is that I'm a crybaby woman THAT WINS. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

Jorge
08-20-2008, 09:27 AM
Before this goes any further, or gets out of hand I'll remind you of a very simple rule I laid out earlier.

KEEP IT CIVIL, OR KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.

That's the last time you will hear it.

Scottie
08-20-2008, 09:32 AM
I am sorry Jorge. I have been very mean and uncivil towards my good friend YankeeBBQ.... It won't ever happen again...:icon_blush:

Jorge
08-20-2008, 09:36 AM
I am sorry Jorge. I have been very mean and uncivil towards my good friend YankeeBBQ.... It won't ever happen again...:icon_blush:

In his case, I'd normally let it go....but I have to be nice to him so that he will consider bringing me some Harpoon:rolleyes:

Scottie
08-20-2008, 09:42 AM
I don't need to suck up to him that bad... As I got a bunch still left from Lake Placid... I've now got the bargaining chip though. As he turned the the NEBites on to Italian Beef's... :roll:

BRBBQ
08-20-2008, 10:21 AM
I've said it before, all contest judges should be certified. I've judged a few contest and if they don't have enough judges to judge, they just find people off the street, no class training or prior experience, this isn't fair to the cooks. I don't compete but personally I wish the garnish was removed from comps, it's just a waste of food and money. It looks great but a waste.... BBQSMYBFF did you see the Bobby Flay BBQ competion throw down? He's a master/culinary chef and he got his butt kicked twice by authenic BBQ cooks, Bobby tried to bring flavor to his food, but authenic bbq flavor won. I guess he should be ticked being a culinary chef and all.

Podge
08-20-2008, 10:27 AM
The difference between you and me is that I'm a crybaby woman THAT WINS. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

Giddy Up !!!:mrgreen:

BBQSMYBFF
08-20-2008, 11:09 AM
BBQSMYBFF did you see the Bobby Flay BBQ competion throw down? He's a master/culinary chef and he got his butt kicked twice by authenic BBQ cooks, Bobby tried to bring flavor to his food, but authenic bbq flavor won. I guess he should be ticked being a culinary chef and all.


i have and i have spoken with butch and he kicked his butt!! lol hahah

it is just a lottery.. i understand it totally just saying how i felt and everyone got twisted. lol hahah

but your right.. get rid of the garnish.. and sauce. lol haha

Transformer BBQ
08-20-2008, 11:18 AM
what is a lottery?

GaryT1
08-20-2008, 11:27 AM
I sure know what your talking about! Sometimes the people the contests get to judge are not very bright. Organizers at our last one even admitted it and are going to correct next year.
One thing we did on our team was to BECOME Judges and try to judge a contest each year. This way you get to taste the winners stuff and how it may differ from yours. It may be not that good to you but at least you know what they are looking for.
If you watched the olympic gymnastics over the past week, the "professional" judges really screwed up. So I am not totally convinced that this is the total answer. Our feelings are that if there is a variance of 2 points between judges at a table, then there needs to be a conference had and the issue resolved. Someone would have to lower or raise the score based on mediation.
Anyway just a thought.

GaryT1

Lakeside Smoker
08-20-2008, 11:33 AM
it is just a lottery..

I've been keeping my mouth shut for 2 days...but, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

So, if you do good, it's just luck?
I've been competing for just over 3 years. The first year and a half I sucked. My friends and family said I was good, but the judges told me I sucked. Ya know what? I listened to the judges...now I'm better (except at Harpoon). Instead of blaming people, I looked in the mirror, and practiced every chance I got. Chicken has been our week point for the past 2 years. I Think I cooked chicken every day over last winter. This year our chicken is MUCH better. I guess I just got lucky.
My Dad has a great saying: "the harder I work, the luckier I get."

Mike

BBQSMYBFF
08-20-2008, 11:45 AM
I've been keeping my mouth shut for 2 days...but, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

So, if you do good, it's just luck?
I've been competing for just over 3 years. The first year and a half I sucked. My friends and family said I was good, but the judges told me I sucked. Ya know what? I listened to the judges...now I'm better (except at Harpoon). Instead of blaming people, I looked in the mirror, and practiced every chance I got. Chicken has been our week point for the past 2 years. I Think I cooked chicken every day over last winter. This year our chicken is MUCH better. I guess I just got lucky.
My Dad has a great saying: "the harder I work, the luckier I get."

Mike


WHY DOES EVERYONE TAKE THIS SO PERSONAL.... if i win i am happy.. if i lose i am happy.. it doesnt matter and i dont give a rats behind.. what i am saying is that the judging has to be up to par.. not for me..not for my team.. for everyone.. i saw some inconsistent numbers on a lot of peoples sheets and it made me sick.. look at the post by muzzle brake..

how do you say raw tuna is not tender?? PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT ONE...

tuna is good.. there are a grade, b grade, and then low grade.. there is no differ in tenderness except for some can get mushy.. it doesnt make sense..

my point is not saying that the constant winners are lucky.. but it is a lottery of judges hoping you get the right ones and people who are decently knowledgable about bbq or food for that matter... if you have never eaten good food than you can not consitantly judge a bbq contest.. and it is the people who can not get out of their minds that each food is individual is the problem..

like a judge stated on here earlier.. if he got a nice spicy chicken and he loved spicy he could judge it a 9.. but if it didnt taste good even though it was spicy and he likes that it is not right he give it a good score.. but if it was really good and spicy and he loved it it got a 9.. not the lady next to him and bites into a blazing chicken and goes damn that chit is spicy and i hate spicy and gives it a 6.. that is pathetic and doesnt deserve to judge..

by NO MEANS AM I SAYING THAT ANYONE HEAR IS LUCKY AT WINNING AND I AM SURE ALL YOUR BBQ AND MEAT IS AWESOME.. YOU ARE ALL READING WHAT I AM WRITING WRONG..

i am saying that there needs to be more consitancy in judging and is has to be done.. if there is no way to do it than fine..

but one again i say.. there is no such thing as standard bbq.. so if you all want to poke fun at a wasabi glaze go right ahead.. but dont knock it until you tried it...



THINK ABOUT IT THIS WAY FOR EVERYONE.. AND I KNOW EVERYONE HAS DEALT WITH THIS..

EVER GO TO A COMPETITION AND COOK YOUR RIBS AWESOME AND TAKE FIRST PLACE AND KNOW THEY TASTED AWESOME!?!? I THINK SOME OF US HAVE.. AND THEN YOU GO THE NEXT COMP AND YOU COME IN DEAD LAST WITH THE SAME MEAT, SAME SAUCE, SAME RUB, AND SAME EVERYTHING.. EVEN THE BEST HAS THIS HAPPEN TO THEM.. EXPLAIN THAT ONE PLEASE.. IT IS ALL THE JUDGES..

Papa Hogg
08-20-2008, 11:50 AM
Our feelings are that if there is a variance of 2 points between judges at a table, then there needs to be a conference had and the issue resolved. Someone would have to lower or raise the score based on mediation.
Anyway just a thought.

GaryT1

Maybe we could get Tony Soprano to be the mediator :roll:

I like to think of BBQ as art & not everyone has the same taste in art, I personally like Terry Redlin, one of my sisters is not so fond of his work. I personally like my BBQ spicier & a little off the norm, so this is what I do at home, but when I cook at a KCBS event I adhere to that style & I have done ok so far, when I tried to be a little different I did not do so well.

But I do not blame the judges when I don't score well...I shrug it off & look forward to getting together with friends & cooking again.

But to actually want to see people be forced to change their scores because they were different from the other judges :roll: and I thought this was America.

tonto1117
08-20-2008, 11:55 AM
If after reading everyone's responses here and your still not getting it, by all means...please go ahead and continue to compete and use your Wasabi glaze.....I'll be the one waving to you from the stage.......

Jorge
08-20-2008, 11:56 AM
WHY DOES EVERYONE TAKE THIS SO PERSONAL.... if i win i am happy.. if i lose i am happy.. it doesnt matter and i dont give a rats behind.. what i am saying is that the judging has to be up to par.. not for me..not for my team.. for everyone.. i saw some inconsistent numbers on a lot of peoples sheets and it made me sick.. look at the post by muzzle brake..

how do you say raw tuna is not tender?? PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT ONE...

tuna is good.. there are a grade, b grade, and then low grade.. there is no differ in tenderness except for some can get mushy.. it doesnt make sense..

my point is not saying that the constant winners are lucky.. but it is a lottery of judges hoping you get the right ones and people who are decently knowledgable about bbq or food for that matter... if you have never eaten good food than you can not consitantly judge a bbq contest.. and it is the people who can not get out of their minds that each food is individual is the problem..

like a judge stated on here earlier.. if he got a nice spicy chicken and he loved spicy he could judge it a 9.. but if it didnt taste good even though it was spicy and he likes that it is not right he give it a good score.. but if it was really good and spicy and he loved it it got a 9.. not the lady next to him and bites into a blazing chicken and goes damn that chit is spicy and i hate spicy and gives it a 6.. that is pathetic and doesnt deserve to judge..

by NO MEANS AM I SAYING THAT ANYONE HEAR IS LUCKY AT WINNING AND I AM SURE ALL YOUR BBQ AND MEAT IS AWESOME.. YOU ARE ALL READING WHAT I AM WRITING WRONG..

i am saying that there needs to be more consitancy in judging and is has to be done.. if there is no way to do it than fine..

but one again i say.. there is no such thing as standard bbq.. so if you all want to poke fun at a wasabi glaze go right ahead.. but dont knock it until you tried it...



THINK ABOUT IT THIS WAY FOR EVERYONE.. AND I KNOW EVERYONE HAS DEALT WITH THIS..

EVER GO TO A COMPETITION AND COOK YOUR RIBS AWESOME AND TAKE FIRST PLACE AND KNOW THEY TASTED AWESOME!?!? I THINK SOME OF US HAVE.. AND THEN YOU GO THE NEXT COMP AND YOU COME IN DEAD LAST WITH THE SAME MEAT, SAME SAUCE, SAME RUB, AND SAME EVERYTHING.. EVEN THE BEST HAS THIS HAPPEN TO THEM.. EXPLAIN THAT ONE PLEASE.. IT IS ALL THE JUDGES..

Why do you think, that so many people, with so much more experience in competition BBQ are telling you that you are way off base?

Jorge
08-20-2008, 12:00 PM
I sure know what your talking about! Sometimes the people the contests get to judge are not very bright. Organizers at our last one even admitted it and are going to correct next year.
One thing we did on our team was to BECOME Judges and try to judge a contest each year. This way you get to taste the winners stuff and how it may differ from yours. It may be not that good to you but at least you know what they are looking for.
If you watched the olympic gymnastics over the past week, the "professional" judges really screwed up. So I am not totally convinced that this is the total answer. Our feelings are that if there is a variance of 2 points between judges at a table, then there needs to be a conference had and the issue resolved. Someone would have to lower or raise the score based on mediation.
Anyway just a thought.

GaryT1

Your comparison breaks down at this point... Olympic judges are juding one performance. KCBS judges are juding six different pieces of meat from one cook. If your product isn't consistent I can understand a judge's score being off by more than a couple of points.

Now if one KCBS judge is consistently scoring well outside of the norm, then there is an issue.

Jorge
08-20-2008, 12:02 PM
Is it just me, or is this the first thread in the history of ever where the majority of cooks seem to be defending judges?:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::ee k::eek:

Sledneck
08-20-2008, 12:06 PM
Lottery eh? Hmmmmmmm The Mega millions jackpot is now $95 million. SO then a team lets just sau I smell smoke shouldnt even bother competing this coming weekend at New Holland. They are so damn lucky all of the time that winning the Jackpot should be a sure thing!

Lakeside Smoker
08-20-2008, 12:13 PM
.. if i lose i am happy..

clearly

Scottie
08-20-2008, 12:19 PM
Lottery eh? Hmmmmmmm The Mega millions jackpot is now $95 million. SO then a team lets just sau I smell smoke shouldnt even bother competing this coming weekend at New Holland. They are so damn lucky all of the time that winning the Jackpot should be a sure thing!


Steve is going to get a complex.... I wonder if he can just order a case of those hats? :roll:

Sledneck
08-20-2008, 12:29 PM
Steve is going to get a complex.... I wonder if he can just order a case of those hats? :roll:hehehe

Solidkick
08-20-2008, 12:34 PM
BBQSMYBFF

Dude.....it all begins with you......consistent product, consistent flavor profile......

I'm not bragging, just giving you the facts.......the last 10 competitions that I've competed in.......seven 1sts in brisket, one 2nd in brisket, one 10th in brisket, one out of the top 10 because I changed a process that kept my product from being consistent, and I knew it was not right for a good placing......the contests were contests that were 100% certified judges, a mix of ceritfied and celebrity judges, and some that had all celebrity judges.
I did not hit 9 lucky tables.....the odds just don't back it up........

Take the judging class........and work on your skills...........

BBQchef33
08-20-2008, 12:47 PM
BBQSMYBFF heres your cattle call.

My name is Vinnie and i started my BBQ as an amateur just going to contest with my brother and friends of OC Pig Assassins..

I was then entered into my first competition EVER and my first time EVER smoking anything in my life at Yardley Pa BAckyard BBQ contest.

I went out and bought my first smoker in home depot and off i went! I had a small knowledge of culinary that i have learned and i loved to cook. i had a good background on rubs and sauces as i do cook alot but i just never smoked a thing!

Well now it was time and started the smoker and smoked away!

I ended up pretty good as it was my first time for everything and i got 1st place chicken, 1st place ribs and grand champion!!!!

I could beleive it and my sauces and glazes went over highly with the judges and myself included!!

Well now i am officially a "professional" and have recently joined forces with my brother on the OC pig assassins and hope that we can compete and do great together!




Vinnie, I believe I met you and your brother at Yardly outside Big Barrys tent. We had a brief discussion on your sauces and i offered my opinions on the 'crazy stuff"... which is in line with the opinion presented to you here. But after going back and reading your cattle call, I'd like to make a few suggestions and point out a few things.

Its not often I have a fit, but I'm gonna step in because you just thru a blanket over my forum, its membership, KCBS and the judging pool by saying we are like everyone else with nothing better to do :icon_pissed.. Heres a reality check addressing some of the things in this thread.

1 - Get certified as a judge. Go to the class and learn what the baselines are that your required to cook to for a KCBS Contest. .. it will help you understand what the judges are looking for and stop blaming them. It will help you understand that crazy sauces and deviating too far from the the norm is detrimental. Right now, your comments and accusations seem like nothing more than a disgruntled and inexperienced competitor. We are all aware of the risk of inconsistencies in judging, we accept it and even expect it. But there is this small hole in the center of the BBQ Universe that if you find it, you will consistently score higher than your peers. It is no longer luck, or a good table of judges you land on, but it is YOUR product that is just that good, you may not get all 9's, but u wont get 2 6's that will drag u down. The system WORKS.

2 - Get out of your head that getting a check makes you a pro. Your NOT, I'm not and 99.8% of us here ARE NOT. We are hobbiests, we are enthusiasts, and some even are pitmasters, but we(you included) are NOT Professional Pitmasters or BBQchefs. I don't care how much CIA or culinary experience you have. 2-3 contests and a walk does NOT qualify anyone as a pro on this circuit. Mike Davis, Ray Lampe, Rod Gray, Johnny Trigg.. etc.. they make their living doing BBQ. They have years and years and YEARS of experience and cook more in 8 months than some of us would do in a lifetime. We are the weekend warriors, they are the pitmasters and the folks who will hand us our heads with their eyes closed and a bag of lump. Teams Like I-que, I smell smoke, Cancer sucks, etc..., they are climbing that ladder rung by rung and paying their dues. Its the guys of THAT caliber that qualify as the "PROFESSIONALS". Look up the credentials of Great Grills of Fire, The boys form Tornado Alley, Munching Hogs at the Hilton, Quau, to name a few. But to beat your chest because you got a paycheck is loading yourself into the cannon of disappointment. Slow down, and learn from those around you, or you will be humbled in the blink of a eye. I'm heading to the the American Royal Invitational and possible The Jack this year, and honestly I'm scared chit of what I'm up against and I have been cooking BBQ for 25 years. There are REAL PROS out there.

After 25 years of cooking BBQ and 4 years competing in about 20 contests(4-5 a year), I have a table of trophies, a got bunch of checks.. but I will NEVER claim to be a PROFESSIONAL. I am still learning from the members here and on the circuit, and I respect the opinions and advice of those that offer it. Especially those that know better than I. I won't dismiss their advice and fight for my right to deviate. I take the advice and decide if I want to use it and win, or conversely, try to change the game.

3 - Dump the sour grapes. Use this forum for what its here for. TO LEARN. Face it, you are in a place many of us have been. Your coming off a high from a previous contest and you get your clock cleaned at the next. Been there done that. It's the nature of the beast, and until you accept that, you will be bitter or confused after every contest that you don't take a walk in. If you can not accept the game for what it is, then find another game. Keep this in mind, A GC in an open/backyard/grilling event IS JUDGED UNDER SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS THAN A KCBS CHAMPIONSHIP. Your cattle call states you take pride in crazy sauces and unique products. By all means do that, and learn form the results, but don't chastize the judges because they dont like the product. Experiment in the open events and you may do well, but push the envelope to far to either side in the KCBS event, and you will have a rude awakening. As I stated before, there are expectations in the judges tent. If you choose to ignore those expectations and experiment with the judges, you can not blame anyone but yourself for poor scores.

Face it. Judges will NEVER all agree. The KCBS system drops the low score and weighs the rest. One of my last contests I had 4-8-9-9-9-9... in appearance :eek::confused:. WTF?.. I laughed and moved on. It is part of our sport.

4 - Look down this thread and read the names of some of those that have offered advice. Ignore those that threw back the jabs, the moderators will scrub them out again. But their are ALOT of people who have alot.. and I mean many YEARS more experience than you, and they are trying to explain how things work on the KCBS circuit, yet it seems you are fighting it and not accepting things for what they are. You have your opinions and expectations of what this sport should be. We here, are trying to help you understand what IT IS. They do not and will not match up. Everyone who has ever competed was pissed at the judging pool at one tim eor another, but to make blanket statements with disregard to those around you who know better is not going to help you improve. And worse, it's not going to make people around you want to help you to improve.

i apologize if this rant comes across harsh, but at the stage of the thread, the bad Karma being seeded and the constant jabs being thrown, its time to either accept it for what it is, or add it to your ignore list.

BBQSMYBFF
08-20-2008, 12:47 PM
BBQSMYBFF

Dude.....it all begins with you......consistent product, consistent flavor profile......

I'm not bragging, just giving you the facts.......the last 10 competitions that I've competed in.......seven 1sts in brisket, one 2nd in brisket, one 10th in brisket, one out of the top 10 because I changed a process that kept my product from being consistent, and I knew it was not right for a good placing......the contests were contests that were 100% certified judges, a mix of ceritfied and celebrity judges, and some that had all celebrity judges.
I did not hit 9 lucky tables.....the odds just don't back it up........

Take the judging class........and work on your skills...........

WELL SAID MAN!! PEOPLE LIKE YOU MAKE ME WANT TO WORK HARDER.. I APPRECIATE THE NO BASHING AND GOOD COMMENTS... VERY WELL TAKEN AND THANKS MAN!!!!

Scottie
08-20-2008, 12:56 PM
Good post Poobah....

FWIW I will cook anywhere from 20-25 contests a year. I do not consider myself a pro. If I am still learning, I can't be a pro... It's all part of the game, that is why it is called Judging... While I get upset with a wacky score, it's all part of our game. We can't teach taste and tenderness to an individual judge.

Scottie

Podge
08-20-2008, 12:57 PM
BBQSMYBFF heres your cattle call.




Vinnie, I believe I met you and your brother at Yardly outside Big Barrys tent. We had a brief discussion on your sauces and i offered my opinions on the 'crazy stuff"... which is in line with the opinion presented to you here. But after going back and reading your cattle call, I'd like to make a few suggestions and point out a few things.

Its not often I have a fit, but I'm gonna step in because you just thru a blanket over my forum, its membership, KCBS and the judging pool by saying we are like everyone else with nothing better to do :icon_pissed.. Heres a reality check addressing some of the things in this thread.

1 - Get certified as a judge. Go to the class and learn what the baselines are that your required to cook to for a KCBS Contest. .. it will help you understand what the judges are looking for and stop blaming them. It will help you understand that crazy sauces and deviating too far from the the norm is detrimental. Right now, your comments and accusations seem like nothing more than a disgruntled and inexperienced competitor. We are all aware of the risk of inconsistencies in judging, we accept it and even expect it. But there is this small hole in the center of the BBQ Universe that if you find it, you will consistently score higher than your peers. It is no longer luck, or a good table of judges you land on, but it is YOUR product that is just that good, you may not get all 9's, but u wont get 2 6's that will drag u down. The system WORKS.

2 - Get out of your head that getting a check makes you a pro. Your NOT, I'm not and 99.8% of us here ARE NOT. We are hobbiests, we are enthusiasts, and some even are pitmasters, but we(you included) are NOT Professional Pitmasters or BBQchefs. I don't care how much CIA or culinary experience you have. 2-3 contests and a walk does NOT qualify anyone as a pro on this circuit. Mike Davis, Ray Lampe, Rod Gray, Johnny Trigg.. etc.. they make their living doing BBQ. They have years and years and YEARS of experience and cook more in 8 months than some of us would do in a lifetime. We are the weekend warriors, they are the pitmasters and the folks who will hand us our heads with their eyes closed and a bag of lump. Teams Like I-que, I smell smoke, Cancer sucks, etc..., they are climbing that ladder rung by rung and paying their dues. Its the guys of THAT caliber that qualify as the "PROFESSIONALS". Look up the credentials of Great Grills of Fire, The boys form Tornado Alley, Munching Hogs at the Hilton, Quau, to name a few. But to beat your chest because you got a paycheck is loading yourself into the cannon of disappointment. Slow down, and learn from those around you, or you will be humbled in the blink of a eye. I'm heading to the the American Royal Invitational and possible The Jack this year, and honestly I'm scared chit of what I'm up against and I have been cooking BBQ for 25 years. There are REAL PROS out there.

After 25 years of cooking BBQ and 4 years competing in about 20 contests(4-5 a year), I have a table of trophies, a got bunch of checks.. but I will NEVER claim to be a PROFESSIONAL. I am still learning from the members here and on the circuit, and I respect the opinions and advice of those that offer it. Especially those that know better than I. I won't dismiss their advice and fight for my right to deviate. I take the advice and decide if I want to use it and win, or conversely, try to change the game.

3 - Dump the sour grapes. Use this forum for what its here for. TO LEARN. Face it, you are in a place many of us have been. Your coming off a high from a previous contest and you get your clock cleaned at the next. Been there done that. It's the nature of the beast, and until you accept that, you will be bitter or confused after every contest that you don't take a walk in. If you can not accept the game for what it is, then find another game. Keep this in mind, A GC in an open/backyard/grilling event IS JUDGED UNDER SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS THAN A KCBS CHAMPIONSHIP. Your cattle call states you take pride in crazy sauces and unique products. By all means do that, and learn form the results, but don't chastize the judges because they dont like the product. Experiment in the open events and you may do well, but push the envelope to far to either side in the KCBS event, and you will have a rude awakening. As I stated before, there are expectations in the judges tent. If you choose to ignore those expectations and experiment with the judges, you can not blame anyone but yourself for poor scores.

Face it. Judges will NEVER all agree. The KCBS system drops the low score and weighs the rest. One of my last contests I had 4-8-9-9-9-9... in appearance :eek::confused:. WTF?.. I laughed and moved on. It is part of our sport.

4 - Look down this thread and read the names of some of those that have offered advice. Ignore those that threw back the jabs, the moderators will scrub them out again. But their are ALOT of people who have alot.. and I mean many YEARS more experience than you, and they are trying to explain how things work on the KCBS circuit, yet it seems you are fighting it and not accepting things for what they are. You have your opinions and expectations of what this sport should be. We here, are trying to help you understand what IT IS. They do not and will not match up. Everyone who has ever competed was pissed at the judging pool at one tim eor another, but to make blanket statements with disregard to those around you who know better is not going to help you improve. And worse, it's not going to make people around you want to help you to improve.

i apologize if this rant comes across harsh, but at the stage of the thread, the bad Karma being seeded and the constant jabs being thrown, its time to either accept it for what it is, or add it to your ignore list.

Probably one of the best BBQ posts I've ever read !! and no, I'm not just saying that to ki$$ the admin's a$$ either.

BBQ Grail
08-20-2008, 01:00 PM
Probably one of the best BBQ posts I've ever read !! and no, I'm not just saying that to ki$$ the admin's a$$ either.

This is why he is the Grand Poobah of BBQ. This is why I hope he runs for KCBS Board again. This is why the forum IS different than all others.

BBQSMYBFF
08-20-2008, 01:05 PM
BBQSMYBFF heres your cattle call.




Vinnie, I believe I met you and your brother at Yardly outside Big Barrys tent. We had a brief discussion on your sauces and i offered my opinions on the 'crazy stuff"... which is in line with the opinion presented to you here. But after going back and reading your cattle call, I'd like to make a few suggestions and point out a few things.

Its not often I have a fit, but I'm gonna step in because you just thru a blanket over my forum, its membership, KCBS and the judging pool by saying we are like everyone else with nothing better to do :icon_pissed.. Heres a reality check addressing some of the things in this thread.

1 - Get certified as a judge. Go to the class and learn what the baselines are that your required to cook to for a KCBS Contest. .. it will help you understand what the judges are looking for and stop blaming them. It will help you understand that crazy sauces and deviating too far from the the norm is detrimental. Right now, your comments and accusations seem like nothing more than a disgruntled and inexperienced competitor. We are all aware of the risk of inconsistencies in judging, we accept it and even expect it. But there is this small hole in the center of the BBQ Universe that if you find it, you will consistently score higher than your peers. It is no longer luck, or a good table of judges you land on, but it is YOUR product that is just that good, you may not get all 9's, but u wont get 2 6's that will drag u down. The system WORKS.

2 - Get out of your head that getting a check makes you a pro. Your NOT, I'm not and 99.8% of us here ARE NOT. We are hobbiests, we are enthusiasts, and some even are pitmasters, but we(you included) are NOT Professional Pitmasters or BBQchefs. I don't care how much CIA or culinary experience you have. 2-3 contests and a walk does NOT qualify anyone as a pro on this circuit. Mike Davis, Ray Lampe, Rod Gray, Johnny Trigg.. etc.. they make their living doing BBQ. They have years and years and YEARS of experience and cook more in 8 months than some of us would do in a lifetime. We are the weekend warriors, they are the pitmasters and the folks who will hand us our heads with their eyes closed and a bag of lump. Teams Like I-que, I smell smoke, Cancer sucks, etc..., they are climbing that ladder rung by rung and paying their dues. Its the guys of THAT caliber that qualify as the "PROFESSIONALS". Look up the credentials of Great Grills of Fire, The boys form Tornado Alley, Munching Hogs at the Hilton, Quau, to name a few. But to beat your chest because you got a paycheck is loading yourself into the cannon of disappointment. Slow down, and learn from those around you, or you will be humbled in the blink of a eye. I'm heading to the the American Royal Invitational and possible The Jack this year, and honestly I'm scared chit of what I'm up against and I have been cooking BBQ for 25 years. There are REAL PROS out there.

After 25 years of cooking BBQ and 4 years competing in about 20 contests(4-5 a year), I have a table of trophies, a got bunch of checks.. but I will NEVER claim to be a PROFESSIONAL. I am still learning from the members here and on the circuit, and I respect the opinions and advice of those that offer it. Especially those that know better than I. I won't dismiss their advice and fight for my right to deviate. I take the advice and decide if I want to use it and win, or conversely, try to change the game.

3 - Dump the sour grapes. Use this forum for what its here for. TO LEARN. Face it, you are in a place many of us have been. Your coming off a high from a previous contest and you get your clock cleaned at the next. Been there done that. It's the nature of the beast, and until you accept that, you will be bitter or confused after every contest that you don't take a walk in. If you can not accept the game for what it is, then find another game. Keep this in mind, A GC in an open/backyard/grilling event IS JUDGED UNDER SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS THAN A KCBS CHAMPIONSHIP. Your cattle call states you take pride in crazy sauces and unique products. By all means do that, and learn form the results, but don't chastize the judges because they dont like the product. Experiment in the open events and you may do well, but push the envelope to far to either side in the KCBS event, and you will have a rude awakening. As I stated before, there are expectations in the judges tent. If you choose to ignore those expectations and experiment with the judges, you can not blame anyone but yourself for poor scores.

Face it. Judges will NEVER all agree. The KCBS system drops the low score and weighs the rest. One of my last contests I had 4-8-9-9-9-9... in appearance :eek::confused:. WTF?.. I laughed and moved on. It is part of our sport.

4 - Look down this thread and read the names of some of those that have offered advice. Ignore those that threw back the jabs, the moderators will scrub them out again. But their are ALOT of people who have alot.. and I mean many YEARS more experience than you, and they are trying to explain how things work on the KCBS circuit, yet it seems you are fighting it and not accepting things for what they are. You have your opinions and expectations of what this sport should be. We here, are trying to help you understand what IT IS. They do not and will not match up. Everyone who has ever competed was pissed at the judging pool at one tim eor another, but to make blanket statements with disregard to those around you who know better is not going to help you improve. And worse, it's not going to make people around you want to help you to improve.

i apologize if this rant comes across harsh, but at the stage of the thread, the bad Karma being seeded and the constant jabs being thrown, its time to either accept it for what it is, or add it to your ignore list.


amen! amen!! not harsh at all.. glad you got in!! thanks poobah.. just lock it down and out with the entire thread.. easier to do that.. we all got our comments, answer, and anything else that was thrown into the mix.. see you at another comp soon!!

YankeeBBQ
08-20-2008, 01:13 PM
Lottery eh? Hmmmmmmm The Mega millions jackpot is now $95 million. SO then a team lets just sau I smell smoke shouldnt even bother competing this coming weekend at New Holland. They are so damn lucky all of the time that winning the Jackpot should be a sure thing!

I'm going to play the lottery and go to New Holland !!

Yakfishingfool
08-20-2008, 02:00 PM
I grew up showing dogs, Pollocks will know of what I speak. There is a standard for a breed. No dog will ever be "THE" standard. But that is what is strived for. Now the judges are trained to understand the standard. They are looking for "THE" standard. But there isn't one. So which dog is closest? Depends on the judge, does he prefer a better top knot over a better hock? Does the KCBS judge, looking at what the standard has been taught to him prefer a slightly beefier taste vs a sweeter taste? He may, but the next judge may prefer a bit sweeter. Both judges will probably give a score within a point of each other as they realize there is no perfect standard BBQ to be had. But they understand the concept of being closest to the standard. and people that consistently win are putting out a product, or breed if you will, that is consistently closer to the standard set forth. Take the class, it was the second thing I did after getting a pit. Then go to a competition and judge or walk the aisles looking at creativity. Ask a few questions. I will tell you there is a night and day difference in backyard and comp cooking. This weekend I made some social ribs, they were tasty, but by no means were they comp ribs.

You get one, maybe two bites for the judge to go WOW!!! If he's trying to figure out if that is a wasabi glaze or a tumeric paste, you've lost him and he/she will score accordingly. Ever pick up a drink and expect to be something it isn't? Remember the assault to your senses? That's what a judge feels when they bite into a BBQ that doesn't taste like a KCBS standards. Confused, disappointed, and they will show it to you in your scores.

I'm good in the backyard, ask all my neighbors and friends, I've still got a lot to learn on the comp flavors. But I will say, it has to grab them. Scott

BBQSMYBFF
08-20-2008, 02:03 PM
I'm going to play the lottery and go to New Holland !!


good luck!!! HOPE YOU GUYS WHOOP ARSE AND TAKE NAMES!!

Muzzlebrake
08-20-2008, 03:06 PM
I grew up showing dogs, Pollocks will know of what I speak. There is a standard for a breed. No dog will ever be "THE" standard. But that is what is strived for. Now the judges are trained to understand the standard. They are looking for "THE" standard. But there isn't one. So which dog is closest? Depends on the judge, does he prefer a better top knot over a better hock? Does the KCBS judge, looking at what the standard has been taught to him prefer a slightly beefier taste vs a sweeter taste? He may, but the next judge may prefer a bit sweeter. Both judges will probably give a score within a point of each other as they realize there is no perfect standard BBQ to be had. But they understand the concept of being closest to the standard. and people that consistently win are putting out a product, or breed if you will, that is consistently closer to the standard set forth. Take the class, it was the second thing I did after getting a pit. Then go to a competition and judge or walk the aisles looking at creativity. Ask a few questions. I will tell you there is a night and day difference in backyard and comp cooking. This weekend I made some social ribs, they were tasty, but by no means were they comp ribs.

You get one, maybe two bites for the judge to go WOW!!! If he's trying to figure out if that is a wasabi glaze or a tumeric paste, you've lost him and he/she will score accordingly. Ever pick up a drink and expect to be something it isn't? Remember the assault to your senses? That's what a judge feels when they bite into a BBQ that doesn't taste like a KCBS standards. Confused, disappointed, and they will show it to you in your scores.

I'm good in the backyard, ask all my neighbors and friends, I've still got a lot to learn on the comp flavors. But I will say, it has to grab them. Scott

dog shows ruin dog breeds, maybe BBQ contests are ruining BBQ
:twisted:
lol

Podge
08-20-2008, 03:43 PM
You get one, maybe two bites for the judge to go WOW!!! If he's trying to figure out if that is a wasabi glaze or a tumeric paste, you've lost him and he/she will score accordingly. Ever pick up a drink and expect to be something it isn't? Remember the assault to your senses? That's what a judge feels when they bite into a BBQ that doesn't taste like a KCBS standards. Confused, disappointed, and they will show it to you in your scores.


the drink example is a good one !!!.. slip someone's beer away and replace it with orange Crush and see what kind of responce they'll get..

If it doesn't taste like good ol' Traditional American BBQ, and if you try to redefine it, you'll get what you asked for.

ssbbqguy
08-20-2008, 04:34 PM
Well said Phil,and several others have offered honest, hard earned advice. Key word-EARNED. As said somewhere, if it was easy, everyone could do it. As told go to classes-judging, cooking, whatever helps to become better. Use this forum for great help, and time saving tips. Steve.

BBQchef33
08-20-2008, 04:36 PM
**Sidebar**

If anyone would like to offer more constructive comments, lets go for it and we will leave the floor open. Lets avoid the negativity and move forward leaving an educational thread in our archive that new competitors can learn from.. what to do, and what NOT to do..

The_Kapn
08-20-2008, 06:42 PM
**Sidebar**

If anyone would like to offer more constructive comments, lets go for it and we will leave the floor open. Lets avoid the negativity and move forward leaving an educational thread in our archive that new competitors can learn from.. what to do, and what NOT to do..

Well... "Shucks".
I have been away and was just ready to launch on this thread :oops:

Great wrap-up Phil.
You hit the nail on the head.

TIM

Smoky River BBQ
08-20-2008, 07:28 PM
My only .02 worth is this...when I go to a contest, I want to learn something. It may be a cooking technique, a taste that is popular in that region of the country, or even a hint as to how to better the garnish in a turn in box. If the day ever comes that I feel like I am not learning anything anymore, that will be the day that I quit. I am such a long way of even being in the same level as most of the people I compete against...Podge has seen how I place...but this to me is a fun, learning experience. You take either one of those ingredients out...well, what is the point? Sure, there have been times I wanted to personally look for a judge...who hasn't? But what it boils down to is that when the smoke clears, I am still having FUN! :-D Life is too short not to, ya know??

bbqbull
08-20-2008, 07:37 PM
Is it just me, or is this the first thread in the history of ever where the majority of cooks seem to be defending judges?:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::ee k::eek:

Ive never bashed the KCBS and their judges.

Citizen Q
08-20-2008, 07:58 PM
How's about we compile a list of actual problems specific to KCBS judging and suggest possible solutions that we could put to KCBS? I've got a few.

First off I believe judging should be transparent. That is to say that the judges should not be anonymous, I can think of no legitimate sport where the judges and their indivdual scores are not known to the competitors. I have personally witnessed completely ridiculous scoring in the judges tent (899 for canned tuna on a saltine) and have spoken with organizers and Reps who acknowledge the existence of judges who consistently score outside the norm yet are still allowed to participate in the process even though KCBS is supposed to track and deal with this sort of behavior. KCBS deals with it mostly by ignoring it, and this is the major hurdle to getting this info to the cooks. And before some dimwit makes a comment about protecting judges from the violent wrath of irrate cooks, let me say that if the judges of highly trained and physically conditioned hand to hand martial arts competitors are safe from harm, why in the hell would anybody be afraid of a fat bastard in a greasy shirt with a Pabst and a spatula?

Has anyone else ever noticed that while nobody at a KCBS BBQ contest has ever said "MMMMM, barbequed chicken is my favorite!", chicken seems to be the category that consistently scores the highest across the board. I have a working theory on this phenomenon: The time spent after a judges arrival waiting for the contest judging to begin builds up a great deal of anticipation which leads to higher average scores given out by the judges for the first category of the day. Some judges then compensate for this by lowering their scores for subsequent categories. Pair this with the scoring of judges who gorge themselves on chicken and ribs only to yet face the pork and brisket entries which can't possibly taste good to somebody who is already sickened by the sheer volume of BBQ consumed thus far. I say that KCBS should draw the category order out of a hat for each contest at the time of sanctioning. I'd be willing to bet you'd see a lot more 7's, 8's and 9's for brisket if it were the first category of the day.

While we're at it, somebody should address the annual KCBS "Changing of the Scoring Process". I believe this effectively nullifies any attempt to legitimize this sport by certifying judges in the first place. If each year's crop of judges is trained how to score an entry differently than the previous year's, what's the point of it?

And another thing about the judges class, why is there a pull test for brisket and not for pork or chicken? KCBS rules state that each entry "may be submitted sliced, chopped or pulled as the cook sees fit", yet only with brisket is there a pull test for a sliced entry, and it is further taught in these classes that chopped or pulled brisket is usually an indication of a cook trying to cover up a poorly cooked piece of meat. WTF??? This practice needs to eliminated and intensive retroactive training needs to be enforced at every judges meeting.
You will never convince me that even the most perfectly cooked flat of a brisket cannot be made even more perfect by chopping and mixing it together with it's equally perfect point. BUT, serve that to a panel of experienced KCBS judges and here are your scores: 999, 898, 787, 677, 645, 454. Broken down, this would suggest that 2 judges loved it and respect your maverick style, 2 more liked it but refuse to acknowledge that BBQ should ever be different than what is in every other turn-in box, and the last 2 judges are just simple minded A-holes who refuse to judge an entry turned in "as the cook sees fit".

As it now stands the only requirements to be a KCBS Certified Judge are to pay the class fees and keep you KCBS dues up to date. Ka-ching $$$$$$ How does that make you feel when you try to discuss BBQ as a legitmate sport?

I would also like to hear fewer examples of the personal preferences of the training reps being taught in KCBS Certification classes. I have judged without ever taking the class and I believe I have been nothing but fair in my assesments. I can read and fully comprehend the judging rules and guidelines and I can honestly say to anyone reading this that the same cannot be said of every single KCBS Certified Judge active today.

To wrap up this post, I'd like to acknowledge that consistency on the part of the cook is absolutely key to performing well in these competitions, but I don't think it unreasonable to ask the same consistency on the part of the folks sitting in judgement on us.

Rookie'48
08-20-2008, 08:32 PM
Citizen Q - I have my own theory on why the chicky scores are the highest. This isn't scientifically proven, it's only a guesstimation on my part, but here goes .................... the judges don't eat breakfast :eek:!

When you know that a couple of pounds of (mostly) damn good food is going to be set in front of you, why would you eat corn flakes before showing up? I don't think that judges try to "compensate" for their high chicken scores, its only that you are very hungry when the first entry is brought in (usually chicken but it could be Kids-Q, sausage or whatever) so what you see & taste first is great. Kinda like going to the grocery store when you're starving - everything looks so good that you buy more.

Maybe they could try moving the categories around like you said, but I'll bet that the first one to be scored gets more points :biggrin:.

Buster Dog BBQ
08-20-2008, 09:36 PM
I figured it was because chicken has less chance of being dried out like the other three could.

butts a fire
08-20-2008, 09:53 PM
you must have missed my chicken scores, they are Consistently my lowest scoring catagory

Rookie'48
08-20-2008, 10:08 PM
you must have missed my chicken scores, they are Consistently my lowest scoring catagory

I only was guesstimating in general. I haven't looked, but I'd be willing to bet that as a whole the first category turned in on any given day will score higher than the others (except desert). May be one of the Reps or BOD can chime in here ???

BRBBQ
08-20-2008, 10:23 PM
If your right, I think chicken scores better because of the presention! Just look at all the pics of posted chickens they look great, beef & ribs have to be up there also, to me sliced pork looks better then pulled pork, but not always. I've seen alot & tasted it all. I have no problem telling whats bad, you can see bad. If KCBS could do people a favor get rid of garnish, some teams are out on appearance alone, I know it's the food but if you could only see some of the box's. I judged a contest in St Joseph Mo and it was very very tough on presentation, I almost thought everybody was copying everybody else, garnish & presentation was top notch in everybox, it told me that these teams have done their home work. I'm sure the scores were close.

Nitrofly
08-21-2008, 12:30 AM
Well I have just stumbled on this thread.. :icon_blush:
Please Please remember this is our Hobby sure we have
lots of passion about this fine sport of BAAAHHHBEQUE !!!
I just poured a fresh Vodker so if I spell anything wrong
just blame it on the Vodker.. I really wish people would stop
slamming Judges when they score poorly.. They give an afternoon
or even a Weekend of their time to judge our food.. I do believe that
there is an element of luck in a BAAAHHHBEQUE !!! contests..
But with that said.. if it was all luck and bad judges all the contests
would end in a crap shoot.. Teams that cook consistantly good
BAAAHHHBEQUE !!! get calls.. Look at ISS and IQUE for a couple
they know how to cook good BAAAHHHBEQUE !!! Those two teams
do well because they are good consistant cooks.. Ique took 1st in
brisket at the Royal and this weekend at New Platz because Chris
cooks a killer brisket.. You still need to have your food land of a table
of judges that like what you gave them.. Flavor is still a personal taste
But the top teams win a lot because the cook consistant BAAAHHHBEQUE !!!
ISS,IQUE,Lottabull , Cancersuckschicago and HomeBBQ.. Cook killer
BAAAHHHBEQUE !!!BAAAHHHBEQUE !!!
One of the first things I learned from a wise BBQ pitmaster. Uncle Jed.
If you think that was the best BBQ meat you ever cooked it will
most likely tank.. and if you think it sucks.. It might just do pretty well..
If we piss off all the Judges we won't be able to have any more contests
Are they right all the time NOT!! Thats why KCBS drops the low score
to try an level the playing field.. Please just rememeber that just because
you uncle willy thinks you make the best ribs in the world they might just
be OK.. What you turn in on saturday moght just be DAL and the same
product on sunday could come in 1st place.. Please don't take this
BAAAHHHBEQUE !!! tooo personal... Unless your using wasabi glaze
on your brisket.. I am a KCBS CBJ never during my class did they
talk a about KCBS style BBQ.. They talk about what well cooked meat
should taste like.. We have never cook in South Carolina but I would
guess if you don't give them a vinegar sauce with your pulled pork you
will tank.. There is a lot of personal taste in judging BAAAHHHBEQUE !!!
I wise BAAAHHHBEQUE !!! cook once told me you have one bite to WoW
the a Judge and I truely believe most CBJ's want to give every entry a
fare shake.. Judging BAAAHHHBEQUE !!! is a Judges hobby just as cooking
BAAAHHHBEQUE !!! is cooking teams hobby.. We need each other..
Just please play nice.. :biggrin:

PatioDaddio
08-21-2008, 01:08 AM
BBQSMYBFF - I think you need a new keyboard. Your period.. key.. seems.. to be.. sticky.. Of course, if you get.. paid.. by.. the.. period.., rock on.. your shift key also appears to be... malfunctioning. :wink:
John

Bastey Boy
08-21-2008, 01:45 PM
I've been at this for 10 years, and I sometimes get frustrated, too. As has been written before, instead of trying to change the minds of many, you can change your own mind, and thereby, your approach to cooking competition BBQ.

You say they should not judge by what they like, but by what works. But if they don't like it, then obviously it doesn't work for them!

Personally, I love wasabi glaze, and now that you mentioned it, I'll probably use some tonight for MY dinner, but I guarantee you I won't use it at my next contest...sorry Sully!

I will also not use it at my next catering gig, because I doubt it would be appreciated by more than a handful of guests.

I try to treat a competition the same way I'd treat cooking for friends, family or for a party...cook they way THEY like it.

If I'm cooking for myself, I cook what I like, if I'm cooking for you, I'm going to try and cook what you like. I love spicy food, but I'm not going to convince my mother, for example, that habenero is good on ribs, so she gets ribs they way she likes them.

That being said, again I've been at this 10 years, and as soon as I figure out what the judges like, I'll let you know. :confused:



By the by...Sully - Vodker? Bwwwaaaahahahahaha!!

Sean, excellent points about judging...I'll save them for future reference:icon_devil

watertowerbbq
08-21-2008, 08:08 PM
Maybe you should take a judging class and then judge a contest and you can get a real feel for what is being turned in. Everyone thinks their BBQ is good and so do their friends and families. They are the worse ones to listen to.

I always say that the only person who I really trust with respect to how my bbq tastes is my wife. As everyone knows, wife's are brutally honest. :-D

bbqbull
08-21-2008, 08:26 PM
I always say that the only person who I really trust with respect to how my bbq tastes is my wife. As everyone knows, wife's are brutally honest. :-D

Amen....my wife is my worlds best critic, my neighbors are my second.
If you dont trust their opinions........your in trouble.

JD McGee
08-21-2008, 09:22 PM
Amen....my wife is my worlds best critic, my neighbors are my second.
If you dont trust their opinions........your in trouble.

Ditto...I'm doing my first solo comp soon with my wife. She'll be my "official" taster. If it passes her pallete...it'll be good enough for me!

I hope to get a walk or two and I'll do my best to make sure all is on schedule according to our game plan...but that's as far as I'm gonna worry about.

The majority of my BBQ is for family, friends, and co-workers (who think I'm a BBQ God! :biggrin:)...there's my walk! :-P

watertowerbbq
08-21-2008, 09:47 PM
in 2007, we competed in a local contest and our ribs scored 5th out of 42 (i think). we were on cloud 9. in 2008, we competed at the same contest with the same ribs and finished 39th out of 39.

same scenario and now we are talking pork. in 2007 we got 4th and in 2008 it was 11th.

when we left the contest i was upset about our rib score, but the more i thought about it i realized that our ribs probably weren't 5th the year before and probably weren't 39th the next. the real result was probably somewhere in between.

BTW, now i'm really ready to get back to that contest next year and get the sour taste out of my mouth.

bbqbull
08-21-2008, 10:50 PM
I did three monster cooks before our first KCBS contest, changing things and got my wifes and neighbors opinions before my first contest.
Our team took 3rd in chicken, I was blown away and really wonder why I ever want to do another contest.
In no way am I gloating here.........but ive reached my pinnacle in life in my profession so still wondering why I bother doing competitions.
Rather host a Brethren Bash here on my property and just enjoying life.

BRBBQ
08-21-2008, 11:01 PM
I missed this some where, whats a wasabi glaze:?:

CivilWarBBQ
08-21-2008, 11:19 PM
Personally, I love wasabi glaze...

By the by...Sully - Vodker? Bwwwaaaahahahahaha!!



BTW - My buddy came back from a trip to California with two bottles of Wasabi Vodka. I thought it was horrible stuff, but he and his wife love it! Tastebuds are very mysterious things indeed.

8-)

Dale P
08-22-2008, 05:31 AM
We are weird and try different things and it bit us on the A$$ at Madison. I thought, no WE thought everything was good and it was scored that way. Middle of the pack, which is good not great. The Judges got it right.

Meat Burner
10-18-2008, 10:38 PM
i think everyone did because of the poor judging.. i have not been in the competition end of this stuff very long but i know good bbq and i know what tastes good.... since i refuse to dumb down my bbq for those judges we got beat for it... the food was amazing and yet nothing.. not even a walk.. we got 899,789, 887, 765, and 764 in one category... and then i get a 4 from one judge on APPLE TENDERNESS!!?!? what a joke.. we made a complete flop for the apples and they loved the junk.. you know what it was!?!? A DAMN BOBOLI PIZZA CRUST WITH EVERY LEFT OVER WE HAD IN OUR FRIDGE, FROM PULLED PORK, TO HONEY HAM, TO BLUE CHEESE, MOZZ CHEESE... it was good.. but looked like hell and we took 7th!!!

judgeing at these competitions has become and joke and unless the KCBS changes their judging and gets professionals and some standardized judging into these comps i am done!!!!!

As a KCBS judge, the next time I drive 10 hours each way, take an unpaid day off, pay my own meals and motel, and truely try to judge objectively, as an avid competitor and judge, I will appreciate how little you think about my dedication. Thanks a lot for for you appreciation of my voluntary work for my love of BBQ. Makes me feel really good to have someome like you cooking at the event. DO NOT APPRECIATE YOUR SELFISH AND UNAPPRIATED, AMATURE REMARKS. GROW UP!! This forum is full of unselfish tutors from the best. Life is full of curves we do not like. To rant and rave is childish. You stated you know good bbq and taste??? Wish everyone was as great as you think you are. My apology to the great brethren on this forum. This has been a truely life changing experience for my bbq because of the unselfish sharing of recipes, techniques, times, tool, smokers, etc., and to have this self-centered rookie jerk, who thinks he knows it all, make these statements, just pi$$is me off. Kinda reminds me of some of my renters who think their unexected car expense is the reason they can not pay rent on time! IT IS ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE's FAULT!!! I SCORED BAD BECAUSE OF THE JUDGES...MY BBQ IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD AND THE JUDGES ARE STUPID AND UNPROFESSIONAL, IGNORANT, AND DON'T KNOW BBQ FROM FRIED CHICKEN. IT'S THEIR FAULT I DIDN'T WIN AND NOT MY FAULT. IT IS THEIR FAULT BECAUSE I KNOW BBQ AND TASTE OF BBQ AND I KNOW, SO THEY ARE THE REASON I DID'NT WIN. Sorry brethren, I sometimes just get tired of hearing about how everything is someone else's fault. EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES.

motoeric
10-18-2008, 11:01 PM
Meat Burner,

I would seriously suggest that you avoid threads like these. You obviously are very dedicated and take your role seriously.

Threads about how judges are the recipients of the generous benefices of cooks and how judges don't understand the dedication and efforts of cooks and can't properly judge until they do have such an understanding pop up with regularity here and on other forums.

Ignore them.

Meat Burner
10-18-2008, 11:19 PM
Thanks Moto, I appreciate getting me back down to earth. Really, I do appreciate it.

BBQchef33
10-18-2008, 11:22 PM
Admin note..

guys. Just in case some folks dont notice, and strictly as an FYI.. this is an old thread. Points been made and BBF has gotten the idea. MB just chimed in, but its from the archive.

no harm or foul, just dont want to open this one up like its fresh. Constructive stuff is still and always welcome.



Meat Burner... Cleansing breaths... Deep Cleansing breaths. In thru the nose, out thru the mouth. Think about puppies and walks on the beach. :mrgreen::mrgreen::wink:

Meat Burner
10-18-2008, 11:28 PM
I understand. Thanks for the education on thread knowledge. Love this place and turely appreciate the help and education. Thanks again, you know..passion is passion!

BBQ Grail
10-18-2008, 11:41 PM
http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/30015/123496/f/853034-stray-puppies-on-the-beach-0.jpg

http://www.dailypets.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/tired-puppies.jpg

Jacked UP BBQ
10-19-2008, 07:29 PM
The lips are zipped! Check out bigmistas thread, lets hear how you really feel about him!

Meat Burner
10-19-2008, 09:39 PM
Just read that thread. Keeping my mouth shut. Have a lot of respect for bigmista but also understand that no one wins every game! Sometimes the best team doesn't win that particular day. Makes life interesting and fun.

Meat Burner
10-19-2008, 09:55 PM
http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/30015/123496/f/853034-stray-puppies-on-the-beach-0.jpg

http://www.dailypets.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/tired-puppies.jpg

That is way cool! Priceless!

Unforgiven
10-20-2008, 01:03 PM
Hi,
This is my first post to this board and I have some really strong feelings about KCBS judging, so I figured as might as well chime in here.

In my opinion, the judging is broken. You do have to cook to a baseline, there is very little, if any room for creativity, because it might not be what the judges have been taught to look for.

While you will never be able to exclude personal taste totally, there could be a more specific matrix that the judges follow to keep it to a minimum.

I have thought that perhaps less judges but more experienced? Even pay them a stipend to make it worth the time and money they spend to judge. I don't know anyone elseís thoughts, but I would be glad to pay an extra 10 or 20 dollars a competition to insure quality judging.

Get rid of those who simply refuse to follow the established judging rules. I have seen posts from judges who say "if it is sauced", "If it is not sauced", "If it is sliced", "If it is pulled" then they lower the scores.

Following the rules in place alone would help some.

Just an example, one day I cooked a horrible brisket, and I mean horrible. All judges gave me 4's and 5's, and I deserved them. One judge gave me 8's and a 9!

The inverse has been true also, 7's 8's and 9's and one judge gives me a 5 and 4's

This totally invalidates the judging from a statistical viewpoint.

To say, "hey be nice to them, they spend their own money" is ridiculous. We all spend hundreds of dollars a weekend to compete, and one thing we do deserve, and should demand from the KCBS is professional, fair judging.

We are not getting it.

KCBS will never be taken seriously in comparison to other main stream sports and competitions until this is fixed. We stand on a precipice, able to be taken seriously except for a few flaws that could be fixed. One of them is judging. Then we would be very main stream and prizes would be in the tens of thousands of dollars. Major sponsors would be jumping at this. There would be a lot more televised events. Which means larger purses.

New rules and a new judging matrix needs to be created. The way it is done in other sports and competitions is like this;


An at-large member suggestion period
A large group works on those suggestions making the language specific
A smaller group tunes those results
The board then goes over each new rule change, publicly
Then the memberships votes on each rule change, pass or fail

This is great competition; the cooks are dedicated, informed and thoughtful. We deserve better.

YankeeBBQ
10-20-2008, 01:28 PM
Can you point me to one Sport or competition where people (normally the losing person or side) don't complain about the officiating ?

ie...
Tuck Rule in football
balls and strikes in baseball
chili comps and their perfectly cubed meat
personal fouls in basketball
points in a boxing match
have you watched any of those food network challenges ?

Being a judge or referee or umpire is a lonely job and complaints come with the territory.

The KCBS rules could use some improvement sure but for the most part they work. I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel.

There are some bad judges out there and those are the ones we hear about most of the time. In fact the bad ones are sometimes the most vocal because they think their opinion is superior to everyone elses. The fact is the majority of judges do a great job. I don't think someone has to judge ten contests to be a good judge. If somethings good you give it good score if it isn't then you don't. What's so hard about that ?

Unforgiven
10-20-2008, 01:37 PM
Can you point me to one Sport or competition where people (normally the losing person or side) don't complain about the officiating ?

ie...
Tuck Rule in football
balls and strikes in baseball
chili comps and their perfectly cubed meat
personal fouls in basketball
points in a boxing match
have you watched any of those food network challenges ?

Being a judge or referee or umpire is a lonely job and complaints come with the territory.

The KCBS rules could use some improvement sure but for the most part they work. I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel.

There are some bad judges out there and those are the ones we hear about most of the time. In fact the bad ones are sometimes the most vocal because they think their opinion is superior to everyone elses. The fact is the majority of judges do a great job. I don't think someone has to judge ten contests to be a good judge. If somethings good you give it good score if it isn't then you don't. What's so hard about that ?


But I won and I am still making suggestions about judging. I don't feel that because I question the veracity of the judging, that I am complaining. It is possible I just want to make a competition I am starting to really like, better.

What is so hard about, "If somethings good you give it good score if it isn't then you don't"? I think it is hard to be a good judge. I think the lack of a solid matrix and standards make it even harder.

Making changes to a set of rules that are broken is not really reinventing the wheel, It is more like fixing a flat tire. Until it works, it is pretty useless.

Umpires and Refs? there are procedural rules for challanging a call and getting it changed. There are no such rules here.

I agree that we hear about the bad judges the most and they are the most vocal, for the reasons you stated. They are the ones that skew the scores though, and trash someones, otherwise great day.

Jorge
10-20-2008, 01:44 PM
But I won and I am still making suggestions about judging. I don't feel that because I question the veracity of the judging, that I am complaining. It is possible I just want to make a competition I am starting to really like, better.

What is so hard about, "If somethings good you give it good score if it isn't then you don't"? I think it is hard to be a good judge. I think the lack of a solid matrix and standards make it even harder.

Making changes to a set of rules that are broken is not really reinventing the wheel, It is more like fixing a flat tire. Until it works, it is pretty useless.

Umpires and Refs? there are procedural rules for challanging a call and getting it changed. There are no such rules here.

I agree that we hear about the bad judges the most and they are the most vocal, for the reasons you stated. They are the ones that skew the scores though, and trash someones, otherwise great day.

Taste is sooo subjective that I'm not sure what you suggest is possible. How tight can you make judging guidelines without negatively impacting the freedom cooks currently have.

EDIT: I forgot to add; head to Cattle Call and introduce yourself:mrgreen:

YankeeBBQ
10-20-2008, 01:48 PM
What is so hard about, "If somethings good you give it good score if it isn't then you don't"? I think it is hard to be a good judge. I think the lack of a solid matrix and standards make it even harder.



I guess I'm a little confused on what you are looking for. On the one hand you say "You do have to cook to a baseline, there is very little, if any room for creativity, because it might not be what the judges have been taught to look for." And then you talk about a need for a matrix and standards which would squash any and all creativity.

If you've ever been to a judging class you would realize they really don't teach any baseline and what good bbq is. They spend more time on what is illegal and should be disqualified.

Unforgiven
10-20-2008, 02:02 PM
They are not mutually exclusive. Judges have to be taught to ignore there own preferences and look at things for what they are. I think a well defined matrix, judge mentoring and a culture that encourages being creative will help.

No, it is not going to be easy.

Here is an example from my own life;

I pretty much hate fish, and I really hate salmon. My wife and I go to a restaurant named TRU a few times a year. The best in chicago. One time one of the courses was salmon. I tasted my wife's and although I did not personally find the flavor good, I could tell that, it was fresh, clean, blanced. The sauce was balanced and flavorful. It complimented that nasty salmon perfectly.

I would have given that course a 10. even though on a personal level, I wanted to spit it out.

That is fair judging and that can be accomplished to a degree with a matrix. there is a great blog about this very topic and I will find it. It explainsthe concept of a matrix far better than I can.

But you are both right, personal taste is hard to ignore, but to have really fair judging, if the guy next to me is cooking with rum and allspice, and I am using honey and bay leaves. We both deserve to be judged on what we are cooking, not if one of the judges hates rum or bay leaves.

This is at the core of all competition judging, and it is what makes it so hard.

Transformer BBQ
10-20-2008, 02:10 PM
Taste is sooo subjective that I'm not sure what you suggest is possible. How tight can you make judging guidelines without negatively impacting the freedom cooks currently have.

EDIT: I forgot to add; head to Cattle Call and introduce yourself:mrgreen:


ahhh... my army of BBQ judge robots will soon be complete!!:twisted::twisted:
just need to save up that $75 each to get them all certified and I'll be on my way!!



"Yankee" you obviously don't compete...

YankeeBBQ
10-20-2008, 02:11 PM
But you are both right, personal taste is hard to ignore, but to have really fair judging, if the guy next to me is cooking with rum and allspice, and I am using honey and bay leaves. We both deserve to be judged on what we are cooking, not if one of the judges hates rum or bay leaves.

This is at the core of all competition judging, and it is what makes it so hard.

I agree with that but as I said way back in the beginning of this thread you should also be judged on whether or not Rum and bay leaves are actually Barbecue. It is after all a 'Barbecue Competition'.

Hey Brendan can't you get that Bank of Yours to buy the KCBS ? They've bought everything else out there.

Jorge
10-20-2008, 02:22 PM
The Smack Talk is strong in New England today.

Jorge
CSTJ #1
(Certified Smack Talk Judge)

Unforgiven
10-20-2008, 02:29 PM
I agree with that but as I said way back in the beginning of this thread you should also be judged on whether or not Rum and bay leaves are actually Barbecue. It is after all a 'Barbecue Competition'.

I think you are correct in that regard. What is bbq? Do we have iron man competitions where all ingredients are listed? I think that would make for a very interesting competition.

Do away with injections and see if those that use them can really "cook" Limit the kinds of spices and herbs. That might be one kind of competition. Maybe the answer is to hold various "forms" of competitions.

there are a lot of possible solutions. What we should be doing is starting to create a thoughtful, detailed list and then do from there.

This is our society, KCBS is nothing without it's members. Maybe it is time we took a little more control over our own destiny's in this.

Paola Greg
10-20-2008, 02:55 PM
I would have given that course a 10. even though on a personal level, I wanted to spit it out.



I honestly don't think you would make a good bbq judge if you would give an entry a 10 that tasted so bad it made you want to spit it out.....:)

Unforgiven
10-20-2008, 03:22 PM
I honestly don't think you would make a good bbq judge if you would give an entry a 10 that tasted so bad it made you want to spit it out.....:)


Greg,
Even though your statement was obtuse, it does help me make my point. You can't see how you could judge something fairly, without bringing your personal tastes into it.

And that's the problem, and please do not take it personally, it is the culture that has been created by the KCBS and the fault, if there has to be any (which there does not) lays with them.

My point was I hate fish, just hate it. The question was is it possible for someone to be fair and not bring their own food prejudice to the judging table. I think it is, and I think most of the judges would be willing to do it.

They just have to be taught. It is what is fair, and in the "sports" best interest.

Do these competitions have any validity, if someone loses because one person doesn't like cayenne?

No they don't.

This competition uses weighted statistical measures to score. If you are going to use that methodology, fairness has to be an innate part of the base measure, which is the whole numbers we are given by the judges.

As I said, the system is broken, even if strictly from a mathematical stand point. We should all want better.

HBMTN
10-20-2008, 03:34 PM
I don't get caught up in place finishes any more, I try to look at score instead. Finishing 15th for instance sounds way back but if there is less that 10 points separating you and first and 150 points separating you and 30th, then 15th is a good finish. After going to KCBS Judging School and seeing how it is done my goal is not to win, my goal is to be good enough to get in the top 10. Because from there it is a crap shoot "solely" dependant on the judges of that day. IMO it is out of your control from there. If you don't finish top 10 it does not mean your food is not good but you wont get top ten with bad food. The judging system I feel is rough when for every six teams there is a different set of judges. I think a better system would have 8 judges per type of meat and those 8 judges score all teams for say ribs, then a different 8 judges score all teams for pork. That way if there is a low scoring judge for ribs at the table then every team will get a low score. Then at the end make sure all judges get to take home a GOOD tray of all types of meats to feast on. But under the current judging system if there is a judge who is scoring lower in ribs then only 6 teams will be affected by the score. It is still a blast though!

Bentley
10-20-2008, 03:43 PM
judgeing at these competitions has become and joke and unless the KCBS changes their judging and gets professionals and some standardized judging into these comps i am done!!!!!


They are getting better, but I believe they got a long way to go!

Shouldn't the first step be making it taste like bbq ?


Yes!

Now is your definition of BBQ going to be used or his?

BBQSMYBFF
10-20-2008, 03:56 PM
I think you are correct in that regard. What is bbq? Do we have iron man competitions where all ingredients are listed? I think that would make for a very interesting competition.

Do away with injections and see if those that use them can really "cook" Limit the kinds of spices and herbs. That might be one kind of competition. Maybe the answer is to hold various "forms" of competitions.

there are a lot of possible solutions. What we should be doing is starting to create a thoughtful, detailed list and then do from there.

This is our society, KCBS is nothing without it's members. Maybe it is time we took a little more control over our own destiny's in this.



but since it got started again.. lol

we all appreciate what the judges do but it is all voluntary. no one asks you to drive 10 hours to eat food.

also there is no such thing as bbq.. what is bbq!!?!? it does not say in the dictionary that it is completely tomato based sauces and rubs..

it says nothing of the sort..

i am going to start a new competition somewhere.. where no one can use anything store bought.. lets have a serious competition then..

the judges are not the entire problem.. the problem is there is no standard.. and that was the original point..

Lakeside Smoker
10-20-2008, 04:10 PM
Sorry, couldn't resist...
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q82/boomn4x4/Gifs/beating-a-dead-horse.gif?t=1224537192

BBQchef33
10-20-2008, 04:28 PM
can i put that horse on a spit and cook it?

Unforgiven
10-20-2008, 05:01 PM
There are some really great ideas coming out of this. Now if we could only get the board of the KCBS to stop living in a vacum and actually be proactive and assist in this.

What is BBQ? I sure don't know, but in my own opinion, it is a cooking method, not really the sauce or the spices. Almost every culture has a form of bbq. Korean bbq is awesome, but I am certain it would score low.

The green egg cooker is based on a very old asian form of cooking. So asian is bbq also? I would say so.

That is my point actually, we should all be allowed to cook as we see fit on the equipment that is in the rules, and using the methods listed in the rules.

We should not be judged on what it is not, but on what it is. In Marcus Aurelius, it is stated "Of each particular thing, ask: What is it in itself?"

Zen and the art of bbq :)

But with all seriousness, it is an art, and many of you I have met are artisans and we deserve the best and most fair judging system that can be created.

Yes it would be hard work. Yes it would take time. In the end though, it will help this sport grow and become even better.


I wonder if the Admin of this site, or another site would be willing to create a category just for rule changes? One set up so that for the first week or month or some specific length of time, no comments are allowed, only the rule change itself.

Then after that time, comments can be made on each rule change suggestion.

After or hopefully, during the process, the KCBS rules committe (I hope there is one) can be looking at and talking about this.

CivilWarBBQ
10-20-2008, 05:04 PM
...
Then we would be very main stream and prizes would be in the tens of thousands of dollars. Major sponsors would be jumping at this. There would be a lot more televised events. Which means larger purses.


While I think you have some interesting ideas, I would be very sad to see your vision for what KCBS should be come true. My team and many others follow the barbecue trail because we love the camaraderie with the cooks and judges, as well as the feeling of community as each small town opens their hearts to embrace our smoky little traveling show for the weekend.

I don't deny that many feel as you do, but I firmly believe that taking KCBS down the NASCAR road would kill the soul of the thing. Should that unhappy day ever come, a good number of us will move to other sanctioning organizations that want to promote BBQ while preserving the qualities that made cook-offs so enjoyable, just like stock car racers have. NASCAR has thousands of spectators, but very few drivers. Compare that to your local dirt track where the percentage of participants is much higher.

Perhaps KCBS might consider creating a premium competition series similar to what Versus & Kingsford put together in 2007. That could be a way to satisfy those with the thirst for fame and fortune without destroying the existing cook off culture.

Unforgiven
10-20-2008, 05:32 PM
I firmly believe that taking KCBS down the NASCAR road would kill the soul of the thing.


I can see your point, but the reality is, WE are the soul, you, me, everyone involved. That would not change with growing it.

The reason I have even spent the time doing this, is because I have really discovered a very cool, fun thing for myself and my family to be involved with.

It is my hope that we, as a group can make it better.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-20-2008, 06:32 PM
Has a thread ever been deleted before? can we make this a first???:-P:-P:-P

Unforgiven
10-20-2008, 06:50 PM
hmmm,
what is it about this thread that offends you so much?

Transformer BBQ
10-20-2008, 08:14 PM
hmmm,
what is it about this thread that offends you so much?


Its a topic that is so over talked about and beaten into the ground people are sick of it. Please please don't take it personally, but there are hundreds of people who think they have the solution and the answer...

While you very well may be the one who does have the answer... talking about it on message boards real is just that... talk. I can see you've recently joined this group... we're very happy to have people who have passion about bbq, so welcome. Take a look around and you'll see thread after thread on this same topic and you'll get a feel of what I'm saying.

There is a KCBS rules committee every January that considers and discusses any changes. Ban power drafts, clarify par-boiling... etc. Changes come up every year and some happen some don't... if you want something considered there is a process that allows proposals...

When it comes to giant overhauls of the system... just realize that there are a lot of people who realize what we have has some flaws, but in general like it. There is a reason may have chosen KCBS format contests over some of the other options out there...

-B

Unforgiven
10-20-2008, 08:28 PM
I appreciate your response, I don't see taking it up on a message board as just talk though. I see it as a first step. Almost all change begins with talking.

I hope this message board is able to do more than just be a rant area for people. I have always found that things are as good as how you use them.

I know that there are always people that want to dump on every idea and keep things the same. But if we as a competition are to be taken seriously, then we should have rules and judges that reflect the professionalism most of us want.

Once again, it is a question of fairness and equity. That does not have to wait for a once a year

LindaM
10-20-2008, 09:04 PM
You are asking for professional judges.... be careful what you ask for. ....
Food Critics and chefs are the worst judges. They will score you so low you will be crying for weeks. Keep the CBJ's you have, they are doing a great job.

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 06:27 AM
You are asking for professional judges.... be careful what you ask for. ....
Food Critics and chefs are the worst judges. They will score you so low you will be crying for weeks. Keep the CBJ's you have, they are doing a great job.

I can understand your opinion, and agree in some part, but I really don't think I would cry. I don't always cook good. Often I deserve most of the scores I get. It the aberrant scores, that affect all of us, that concern me. They make the scoring system broken and meaningless.

I do not think all judges are doing a great job. I think some do. I think others lack the training and/or experience to do a great job. I think that those that bring their own prejudices to the judging table, in spite of the published rules, do a horrible job and do all of us, the competitors, a great disservice.

given that the difference between a great score, and a good one, can rely on a single judge, the system does need to be changed. It is more than possible to change it.

I have to wonder why anyone who competes would want to be negative, instead of offering something positive.

YankeeBBQ
10-21-2008, 06:41 AM
given that the difference between a great score, and a good one, can rely on a single judge, the system does need to be changed.


Actually that statement is not true. It would take two low scores to kill you in a category. The lowest score is dropped.

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 06:47 AM
Actually that statement is not true. It would take two low scores to kill you in a category. The lowest score is dropped.


I have heard that from a couple sources, but have yet to find it in the rules except where it concerns a tie. Can you please direct me to where this is written?

Thank you.

YankeeBBQ
10-21-2008, 06:56 AM
I have heard that from a couple sources, but have yet to find it in the rules except where it concerns a tie. Can you please direct me to where this is written?

Thank you.
4. The scoring system is from 9 to 2, all whole
numbers between two and nine may be used to score an
entry. 9 excellent, 8 very good, 7 above average,
6 average, 5 below average, 4 poor, 3 bad, and
2 inedible
5. A score of one (1) is a disqualification and requires
approval by a Contest Rep.
Grounds for disqualification:
Appearance: Unapproved garnish, sculptured meat,
marked turn-in container, foreign object in container,
less than 6 samples of meat or pooled sauce.
Taste & Tenderness: Sculptured meat, marked turn-in
container, foreign object in container, or judges not
receiving a sample.
6. The weighting factors for the point system are as
follows: Appearance - 0.5714, Taste - 2.2858,
Tenderness / Texture - 1.1428
7. The low score will be thrown out. Results will be
tallied. If there is a tie in one of the categories, it will be
broken by the computer, as follows: The scores will be
compared (counting all five judges) for the highest
cumulative scores in taste, then tenderness, then
appearance. If still tied, then the low score, which was
thrown out, will be compared and the higher of the low
scores will break the tie. If still tied, then a computer
generated coin toss will be used.
8. Total points per entry will determine the champion
within each classification of meat.
9. Cumulative points for only the four (4) KCBS
classifications will determine the Grand Champion and
Reserve Grand Champion (except the Dodge City, KS;
BarbeQlossal; Tryon, NC, contests, or at the election of
these organizers.)

http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2008RulesAndRegulations.pdf

U2CANQUE
10-21-2008, 07:08 AM
It sucks when we spend what we spend, to do what we do, to get slammed....but, we all know that it is part of it all. I do not hear complaints as much from when we are upset, thinking that we are turning something in that is not up to our standards....and low and behold get a call for something that we were not wanting to put in the box. You just cannot take it personally, it is not like they know who they are judging, and there is no such thing as a perfect set up on judging. All we can do is either let it go, or be miserable....me, I am going for the side of letting it go, and enjoying the ride.

FatBoyz
10-21-2008, 07:38 AM
I have to say this I have had scotty and scots and others i know kick my ass latey...
I came to stop and rewind and find what I FARK UP!!!!! and I found it it is not the judges.it is each cook.... saying the judging is chit is saying scotty and scots you realy cant cook you just got lucky.... well bull**** if you cant handle this and be hounest with your self about your cook or your cooking booboos, then get into gardaning or pottery....on a personal note judge 6 was an ******* who dont no chit

HBMTN
10-21-2008, 07:44 AM
>Actually that statement is not true. It would take two low scores to kill you in a category. The lowest score is dropped.



But if one judge at your table scores a 4 what all other judges are scoring a 7 and your lowest score other than that is a 6 then you lost 3 points there instead of one.

I don't think we want pro's doing the judging, like Linda said they would be too critical. Maybe the same judges judging all teams in say ribs where a low scoring judge scores every team in the comp, or two judges tasting together and giving one score after consulting each other. I just don't know.

YankeeBBQ
10-21-2008, 08:04 AM
>Actually that statement is not true. It would take two low scores to kill you in a category. The lowest score is dropped.



But if one judge at your table scores a 4 what all other judges are scoring a 7 and your lowest score other than that is a 6 then you lost 3 points there instead of one.



Huh ?

HBMTN
10-21-2008, 09:08 AM
YankeeBBQ, say like you stated the lowest score the 4 is dropped. But if the judge that gave the 4 who is scoring everything at your table low would have given you a 7-8 like all the other judges. Then your lowest score would have been say a 6 and the rest 7's-8's. If the judge who scores low would not have been at your table the and the lowest score for you other wise was a 6 then the 6 gets dropped instead of the 4. and gues after thinking about it then it costs you 1 instead of three in each catagory.

Here is my point: Two teams could go to a competition and set up side by side. Only one team cook meat and plate and garnish the same cut of meat identically. Then one team turn in one of the boxes and the other team turn in the second box. Keep in mind these are off the same cut of meat say pulled pork all pulled apart and mixed up and then plated and garnished by one person doing both boxes. Then taken to the judges tent at the same time. Now if one box ends up at one table and the other at another table of judges then these two teams could virtually say one finished 19th and the other finished 2nd. Soley because these meats were judged by two different sets of judges with different taste buds and idea's of scoring in their minds. I would not suggest teams doing that but hopefully that gets my point accross and that is why you can finish very high one time and cook what you consider not as good the next time and place much better.

G$
10-21-2008, 09:33 AM
This thread reminds me how happy I am that we use 'competitions' as an excuse to drink beer.

:icon_clown

Bentley
10-21-2008, 10:17 AM
There is a KCBS rules committee every January that considers and discusses any changes. Ban power drafts, clarify par-boiling... etc. Changes come up every year and some happen some don't... if you want something considered there is a process that allows proposals...

-B


I know I am seen as the great basher of KCBS by the CA BBQ community, but I feel this has to be said.

Its great that KCBS has a rules committe, but when you are a member and you send in ideas about how to make it better and you dont even get a response, you kind of think maybe its all just fluff!

Thats why I am not a KCBS member anymore.

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 10:47 AM
I have to say this I have had scotty and scots and others i know kick my ass latey...
I came to stop and rewind and find what I FARK UP!!!!! and I found it it is not the judges.it is each cook.... saying the judging is chit is saying scotty and scots you realy cant cook you just got lucky.... well bull**** if you cant handle this and be hounest with your self about your cook or your cooking booboos, then get into gardaning or pottery....on a personal note judge 6 was an ******* who dont no chit

I really don't think that to question a broken judging system means you are not accepting personal responsibility for bad cooking days.

I also think it is incumbent on us all to expect a judging system that is fair and equitable. Without us, the KCBS is nothing. True you have the ďstarsĒ, the teams that seem to mostly be the ones that win, but that goes more to the point of cooking to a baseline, rather than allowing anything different or creative. That does not mean what they cook is not good, in fact, some of it is great.

Without the rest of us, there would not be enough teams to make it profitable for the sponsors; there would be no KCBS, even with the stars.

rbinms33
10-21-2008, 11:33 AM
Here is my point: Two teams could go to a competition and set up side by side. Only one team cook meat and plate and garnish the same cut of meat identically. Then one team turn in one of the boxes and the other team turn in the second box. Keep in mind these are off the same cut of meat say pulled pork all pulled apart and mixed up and then plated and garnished by one person doing both boxes. Then taken to the judges tent at the same time. Now if one box ends up at one table and the other at another table of judges then these two teams could virtually say one finished 19th and the other finished 2nd. Soley because these meats were judged by two different sets of judges with different taste buds and idea's of scoring in their minds. I would not suggest teams doing that but hopefully that gets my point accross and that is why you can finish very high one time and cook what you consider not as good the next time and place much better.

With 6 judges at each table, 3 criteria per entry and a scoring range on each criteria from 2-9, I doubt both boxes would be scored perfectly the same on each table regardless of the amount of training each judge is given. While it is possible, I believe it would be unlikely since each judge is allowed to input their own personal subjective opinion on each entry. This is a subjective opinion that is proportional to their own level of life experience with BBQ. To get to the level of equality you want to see on the scoring of both boxes would require objective judging with detailed rules and requirements to some level with no individual subjectivity whatsoever. Quite frankly, I think that would be rather boring for the teams as well as the judges. Of course, Transformer's robots might like it. :biggrin:

YankeeBBQ
10-21-2008, 11:44 AM
Here is my point: Two teams could go to a competition and set up side by side. Only one team cook meat and plate and garnish the same cut of meat identically. Then one team turn in one of the boxes and the other team turn in the second box. Keep in mind these are off the same cut of meat say pulled pork all pulled apart and mixed up and then plated and garnished by one person doing both boxes. Then taken to the judges tent at the same time. Now if one box ends up at one table and the other at another table of judges then these two teams could virtually say one finished 19th and the other finished 2nd. Soley because these meats were judged by two different sets of judges with different taste buds and idea's of scoring in their minds. I would not suggest teams doing that but hopefully that gets my point accross and that is why you can finish very high one time and cook what you consider not as good the next time and place much better.

How about this. You turn both boxes of meat into the same table. I'll bet the judges give them different scores. I've seen it happen in judging classes. We cook all the meat the same yet present it as different entries and people give them different taste and tenderness scores. It's funny to watch. Humans are not machines.

JamP
10-21-2008, 11:45 AM
I started judging this year and the Sayville event will be my 6th of the year. As the year has progressed, I notice that there seems to a great difference in judges when it comes to their commitment levels. While it's fine to show up at an occasional contest to judge, it's the extra time spent cooing your own BBQ and occasionally reviewing the standards for each type of meat so they are always in the back of your mind during the judging period. The problem I see is that some judges simply rely on the taste of the product rather than judging it against the standard. There is also a lack of any two way communication between the judges and the cooks. Several times I would like to have been able to provide some feedback to a team. You're right, it should be taken seriously but it also costs me about $400 for every weekend I go to a contest to judge so i plan to do the best job I can. :wink:

HBMTN
10-21-2008, 12:05 PM
I agree with you all. I too have been at the table in judging class and wonder if people were even on the same planet with me when they talk about the same piece of meat we all just ate. I also believe you could be correct about submitting both entries to the same table and getting two different scores. This probably could even happen with pro judges as well.
I can see both sides of it I guess. Ultimatly I guess it comes down to you could place bad with good food, but I don't think you would place good at least at the comp's I have been to with bad food, and I know that ain't even true probably.

Does anyone know of another competition series where teams are judged by different sets of judges in the same competition?

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 12:11 PM
With 6 judges at each table, 3 criteria per entry and a scoring range on each criteria from 2-9, I doubt both boxes would be scored perfectly the same on each table regardless of the amount of training each judge is given. While it is possible, I believe it would be unlikely since each judge is allowed to input their own personal subjective opinion on each entry.

You can never completely take out personal experience from taste, but with properly trained judges and oversight, you can keep it to a minimum, and a well built matrix can in fact, really improve areas like appearance and tenderness.

There was one idea, where a table of 8 judges scores all entries in a category. That was a great idea.

In, letís say, an Olympic competition, they donít have one set of judges score one competitor, then have a different set of judges score another one in the same event. It simply makes no sense.

This is a subjective opinion that is proportional to their own level of life experience with BBQ.

The point is, it should not be as subjective as it is, and what if they donít have much ďlife experienceĒ? Should any competitors scored be at the mercy of someone that only likes bbq made with honey and scores anything else poorly?


To get to the level of equality you want to see on the scoring of both boxes would require objective judging with detailed rules and requirements to some level with no individual subjectivity whatsoever.

And what is wrong with that? Many, if not most other types of competitions, use very detailed matrix designs and try as hard as they can to eliminate ďsubjectivityĒ. If this is really a professional organization, then we should demand nothing less.


Quite frankly, I think that would be rather boring for the teams as well as the judges.

Why would it be boring to be judged fairly and with equality?

I think being able to cook away from the standard and know you will be judged on what you are cooking, not on what you didnít cook, would be fabulous for the teams and keep more teams from leaving because they never stand a chance of winning because they donít cook to the baseline.

Bentley
10-21-2008, 12:13 PM
With 6 judges at each table, 3 criteria per entry and a scoring range on each criteria from 2-9, I doubt both boxes would be scored perfectly the same on each table regardless of the amount of training each judge is given. While it is possible, I believe it would be unlikely since each judge is allowed to input their own personal subjective opinion on each entry. :biggrin:

I agree somewhat with this statement. I also think that a 3 or 4 hour class is not enough 1 time and thats it. I also do not think that the best use of those hours is concentrating on garnish. Let me say, I have not been to a KCBS judging class since 2003 in KC, so maybe things have changed. To me I would concentrate on showing the judges what, subjectively, good and not good BBQ is.

I ask you cooks. If you tasted 3 different samples of Chicken, Ribs, Pork, and Brisket. For sake of argument, lets say you cooked 3 briskets, 1 to 170*, 1 to 200*, and 1 to 230*. Do you think there migh be a different profile in each of those meats?

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 12:20 PM
4. The scoring system is from 9 to 2, all whole
numbers between two and nine may be used to score an
entry. 9 excellent, 8 very good, 7 above average,
6 average, 5 below average, 4 poor, 3 bad, and
2 inedible
5. A score of one (1) is a disqualification and requires
approval by a Contest Rep.
Grounds for disqualification:
Appearance: Unapproved garnish, sculptured meat,
marked turn-in container, foreign object in container,
less than 6 samples of meat or pooled sauce.
Taste & Tenderness: Sculptured meat, marked turn-in
container, foreign object in container, or judges not
receiving a sample.
6. The weighting factors for the point system are as
follows: Appearance - 0.5714, Taste - 2.2858,
Tenderness / Texture - 1.1428
7. The low score will be thrown out. Results will be
tallied. If there is a tie in one of the categories, it will be
broken by the computer, as follows: The scores will be
compared (counting all five judges) for the highest
cumulative scores in taste, then tenderness, then
appearance. If still tied, then the low score, which was
thrown out, will be compared and the higher of the low
scores will break the tie. If still tied, then a computer
generated coin toss will be used.
8. Total points per entry will determine the champion
within each classification of meat.
9. Cumulative points for only the four (4) KCBS
classifications will determine the Grand Champion and
Reserve Grand Champion (except the Dodge City, KS;
BarbeQlossal; Tryon, NC, contests, or at the election of
these organizers.)

http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2008RulesAndRegulations.pdf


Yankee,
I just wanted to say thanks for finding that for me. I always read that as a way to break a tie.

Now the problem is, both the judging AND the scoring system is flawed. Dropping the lowest score can change the results dramatically in some cases.

In my "real" job, I compile weighted statistics and averages all day long. Dropping a set of numbers from anything is absolutely the worst way, from a pure mathematical perspective, to have relevant totals.

This weekend I will take a sheet at random from our competitions and work the math on it. I already know, that by restoring the dropped set of scores, that the results order is going to change, by as much as 3 places in any direction per team, so that could be as much as 6 places difference in some cases.

YankeeBBQ
10-21-2008, 12:23 PM
There was one idea, where a table of 8 judges scores all entries in a category. That was a great idea.


.

So if there are 55 teams in the event the judges will have to sample 55 different ribs. I don't think that would work. Unless you want them to spit it out like a wine tasting. Ewwww

Jacked UP BBQ
10-21-2008, 12:25 PM
I think a big part of the comp is finding the flavor profile. Find it and you might win!!

YankeeBBQ
10-21-2008, 12:26 PM
Yankee,
I just wanted to say thanks for finding that for me. I always read that as a way to break a tie.

Now the problem is, both the judging AND the scoring system is flawed. Dropping the lowest score can change the results dramatically in some cases.

In my "real" job, I compile weighted statistics and averages all day long. Dropping a set of numbers from anything is absolutely the worst way, from a pure mathematical perspective, to have relevant totals.

This weekend I will take a sheet at random from our competitions and work the math on it. I already know, that by restoring the dropped set of scores, that the results order is going to change, by as much as 3 places in any direction per team, so that could be as much as 6 places difference in some cases.

Well I'm not going to argue statistics with a statistician I have better things to do with my time LOL. Good luck with that.

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 12:30 PM
So if there are 55 teams in the event the judges will have to sample 55 different ribs. I don't think that would work. Unless you want them to spit it out like a wine tasting. Ewwww


True, but most have in the 25 team range. There still would be issues with that, the biggest issue being the time it takes to judge all the entries. you would almost have to have two turn in times per category so that it was all fresh and at least warm.

Even two tables with 8 judges each would be better than what we currently have.

Then they could drop two scores :)

stlgreg
10-21-2008, 12:36 PM
Regardless if I agree or disagree, with 8 judges you would have to have 8 chicken thighs in one box. For that reason alone I dont see it passing.

Paola Greg
10-21-2008, 12:49 PM
True, but most have in the 25 team range.

Of the 248 contests completed so far in 2008 the average number of teams/contest is 39. Four contests had more than 100 teams. Excluding the contests with 100 or more teams, the average number of teams is 36. The smallest contest had 9 teams, the largest contest had 459 teams.
Data courtesy of The Pickled Pig website.

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 12:51 PM
Regardless if I agree or disagree, with 8 judges you would have to have 8 chicken thighs in one box. For that reason alone I dont see it passing.

You could use a bigger box :). Every idea has issues that have to be overcome.

You could use 3 very qualified judges with one master judge, there are a lot of possibilities. Without a doubt though, what we have now is broken.

I myself will be petitioning the board, but there is always strength in numbers and in the end, I hope we all get to vote on any rules change.

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 12:54 PM
Of the 248 contests completed so far in 2008 the average number of teams/contest is 39. Four contests had more than 100 teams. Excluding the contests with 100 or more teams, the average number of teams is 36. The smallest contest had 9 teams, the largest contest had 459 teams.
Data courtesy of The Pickled Pig website.


What kind of average? Range, Median, Mode or Mean? It makes a difference.

I know most of the ones I have been to have been in the 25 to 30 range.

KC_Bobby
10-21-2008, 01:09 PM
Average average - total team with full participation divided by number of comps

The median would be 225 (small - 9, large 459 - difference = 450 /2)
The mean would be ... well I don't know without looking at the data to determine how many comps were larger and smaller then X, but it would probably be slightly lower then the average as I'm guessing more competion fields are between 9-39 then 40-459
The mode, that wouldn't surprise me if it were 25 as some comps find teams at the last minute as an effort to get to 25 teams
Range - wouldn't that be 9-459?

I hope I have these terms right, junior high math was a long time ago.

Many of the comps around MO and KS generally get above the 39 number. Seems that when they do not, they are competing with another comp or two the same date within a short distance.

goodsmokebbq
10-21-2008, 01:12 PM
What kind of average? Range, Median, Mode or Mean? It makes a difference.

I know most of the ones I have been to have been in the 25 to 30 range.

He gave you the range, 9 to 459. The median, mean and mode will all be very similiar with 248 data points.

Just saying :-D

Jorge
10-21-2008, 01:14 PM
So if there are 55 teams in the event the judges will have to sample 55 different ribs. I don't think that would work. Unless you want them to spit it out like a wine tasting. Ewwww

hehe. At the World Championship Steak Cook-off every entry is sampled by each judge. This year there were 64 steaks turned in:eek: The judges are seated at a table, facing the public, in a store window. Even if you figure each sample is 1/2 oz. that's still 2 lbs. of beef at one sitting.

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 01:14 PM
Average average - total teams participated divided by number of comps

The median would be 225 (small - 9, large 459 - difference = 450 /2)
The mean would be ... well I don't know without looking at the data, it would probably be lower then the average - but pretty close
The mode, that wouldn't surprise me it it were 25 as some comps find teams at the last minute as an effort to get to 25 teams
Range - wouldn't that be 9-459?

I hope I have these terms right, junior high math was a long time ago.


yeah you are close, but I am not sure I would include the invitational events. those really are not part of the normal event schedule, kind of like the regular season of baseball and the playoffs.


But I wonder how they compiled the averages they use. not that it really matters, The number of teams don't affect anything in terms of the ideas presented.

I am just curious because I like numbers

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 01:16 PM
hehe. At the World Championship Steak Cook-off every entry is sampled by each judge. This year there were 64 steaks turned in:eek: The judges are seated at a table, facing the public, in a store window. Even if you figure each sample is 1/2 oz. that's still 2 lbs. of beef at one sitting.


So there you go

goodsmokebbq
10-21-2008, 01:30 PM
Average average - total team with full participation divided by number of comps

The median would be 225 (small - 9, large 459 - difference = 450 /2)
The mean would be ... well I don't know without looking at the data to determine how many comps were larger and smaller then X, but it would probably be slightly lower then the average as I'm guessing more competion fields are between 9-39 then 40-459
The mode, that wouldn't surprise me if it were 25 as some comps find teams at the last minute as an effort to get to 25 teams
Range - wouldn't that be 9-459?

I hope I have these terms right, junior high math was a long time ago.

Many of the comps around MO and KS generally get above the 39 number. Seems that when they do not, they are competing with another comp or two the same date within a short distance.


The mean is just the simple plain jane average.

To find the median you need to list the 248 contests from smallest to largest and then pick the middle value (in this case because it is even you would average the two middle values). Would be way less then 225 and very close to the mean

The mode would represent the contest count that appeared the most times in the 248. Assuming a gaussian distribution (bell curve) this means that this point will most likely be at the geometric mean.

Don't forget that 57% of statistics are made up! :-D:-D

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 01:34 PM
Mean is 36
Median is 32
Mode is 25

This is not counting invitationals. In this case both mode and median are relevant.
Mean averages, although they are the most common, are the most unreliable from a statistical standpoint in almost every situation.

goodsmokebbq
10-21-2008, 01:37 PM
Where did those come from? The reliability is a function of the underlying distribution. If Gaussian then the mean is extremly "reliable"

WOW off topic or what...

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 01:50 PM
Where did those come from? The reliability is a function of the underlying distribution. If Gaussian then the mean is extremly "reliable"

WOW off topic or what...


http://www.thepickledpig.com/PPapps/rankings/KCBSContestresults.cfm

remember, i excluded invitationals.

I think it is fun, no reason not to use some math. What I meant by the mean not being reliable is that in a large record set usually, mode and median are the most reliable mathmatically. Mean works well for a small record set where the numbers are not spread so wide

KC_Bobby
10-21-2008, 01:59 PM
The mean is just the simple plain jane average.

To find the median you need to list the 248 contests from smallest to largest and then pick the middle value (in this case because it is even you would average the two middle values). Would be way less then 225 and very close to the mean


Thanks, now I don't have to worry if this weekend's dance being chaperoned by my math teacher. :-P

rbinms33
10-21-2008, 02:01 PM
You can never completely take out personal experience from taste, but with properly trained judges and oversight, you can keep it to a minimum, and a well built matrix can in fact, really improve areas like appearance and tenderness.

I agree but you would have to be careful with the matrix you put in place. Too many standards in the form of rules and regulations could impact a cook's creative ability. While creativity can exist in any set of standards, I just think the amount of standards is inversely proportional to the amount of creativity.


There was one idea, where a table of 8 judges scores all entries in a category. That was a great idea.

In, let’s say, an Olympic competition, they don’t have one set of judges score one competitor, then have a different set of judges score another one in the same event. It simply makes no sense.

Having a set of judges for all entries in one category sounds good in theory, but would be a logistical challenge. If I understand correctly, a contest that has 30 teams competing would have all 30 rib entries judged with a table of 8 judges. If it takes me 15 minutes in today's world to judge 6 ribs entries then it would take me an hour and 15 minutes to judge 30 ribs. That wouldn't work because entries 13-30 would be stone cold by the time I tasted them. To counter that, you have to stagger turn in times. By doing that, you then have to stagger the turn in times for the other 3 categories as well. While it is doable, albeit confusing, it would also set the stage for a very lively cook's meeting.

The point is, it should not be as subjective as it is, and what if they don’t have much “life experience”? Should any competitors scored be at the mercy of someone that only likes bbq made with honey and scores anything else poorly?
I have one question for you. What qualifications/experience should a suitable BBQ competition judge possess?

And what is wrong with that? Many, if not most other types of competitions, use very detailed matrix designs and try as hard as they can to eliminate “subjectivity”. If this is really a professional organization, then we should demand nothing less. .

Again, this requires objective judging. Objective judging requires a set of rules commensurate to the accuracy of the results. I still feel the level of rules impacts the level of creativity that can be applied.

Why would it be boring to be judged fairly and with equality?

I think being able to cook away from the standard and know you will be judged on what you are cooking, not on what you didn’t cook, would be fabulous for the teams and keep more teams from leaving because they never stand a chance of winning because they don’t cook to the baseline.

Maybe I misunderstood you. That comment was based on what I thought was your desire to create a detailed set of standards that determined how a team cooked and how a judge scored.

Regarding the baseline you mention, I agree that it exists. I believe it is a trend that has evolved into a cultural acceptance by both cooks and judges. I also believe it is subject to change.

goodsmokebbq
10-21-2008, 02:05 PM
http://www.thepickledpig.com/PPapps/rankings/KCBSContestresults.cfm

remember, i excluded invitationals.

I think it is fun, no reason not to use some math. What I meant by the mean not being reliable is that in a large record set usually, mode and median are the most reliable mathmatically. Mean works well for a small record set where the numbers are not spread so wide

Moving this discussion to geek forum... :-D:-D

Jacked UP BBQ
10-21-2008, 02:12 PM
SOunds like the mingle in the dingle would get you to equal the tingle. Dont forget the net with the zet, if you want the total get.

goodsmokebbq
10-21-2008, 02:28 PM
How did I get tangled up in this thread again? Die, die, die...

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 02:31 PM
I agree but you would have to be careful with the matrix you put in place. Too many standards in the form of rules and regulations could impact a cook's creative ability. While creativity can exist in any set of standards, I just think the amount of standards is inversely proportional to the amount of creativity.

Yes, the matrix would be the thing that takes time and thoughtfulness to put together. There could even be testing and the like to determine what works and what doesnít. It would not be easy, but even slow modest improvements over time would be better than what we have.


Having a set of judges for all entries in one category sounds good in theory, but would be a logistical challenge. If I understand correctly, a contest that has 30 teams competing would have all 30 rib entries judged with a table of 8 judges. If it takes me 15 minutes in today's world to judge 6 ribs entries then it would take me an hour and 15 minutes to judge 30 ribs. That wouldn't work because entries 13-30 would be stone cold by the time I tasted them. To counter that, you have to stagger turn in times. By doing that, you then have to stagger the turn in times for the other 3 categories as well. While it is doable, albeit confusing, it would also set the stage for a very lively cook's meeting.

I think the practical side of it might prevent that, but it is a great idea. Maybe with some modifications.


I have one question for you. What qualifications/experience should a suitable BBQ competition judge possess?

Me personally, I think it really requires more explanation to the judges. How many judges do you see post here, saying they score off for one thing or another, when the rules say nothing about those things?

Judges need to take this seriously, most do, but it is the ones that donít that can ruin someoneís score.

One thought I had, was to do away with garnish. If it is not to be judged, then why have it in there? I know from experience, I get better scores when I garnish, then when I donít. That is just wrong.


Again, this requires objective judging. Objective judging requires a set of rules commensurate to the accuracy of the results. I still feel the level of rules impacts the level of creativity that can be applied.

In my mind anyway, the rules could be set out, that allow for more creativity, not less. A good example from my own experience is I did a bbq Asian chicken breast.

It was fantastic, it scored very very low. I believe it was because it was not what the judges consider bbq. The flavor was good, tender, moist. But it was so different, it failed. Now 2 of the judges got it and I received 8ís and 9ís from them. The rest did not.

Pulled or sliced chicken scores very poorly, even though the rules specifically say it is allowed.

If it is hammered into the judges that you are not to use your own preferences, that you judge something for what it is, not for what it isnít and remove judges that clearly donít do that, you will have a better competition.

There has to be oversight.

Maybe there should be a way to challenge a decision?

Maybe I misunderstood you. That comment was based on what I thought was your desire to create a detailed set of standards that determined how a team cooked and how a judge scored.

Not how teams cook, but how judges judge. I have seen and tasted a lot of really great food since I started doing this, A lot of the people I tasted it from said that it was their personal food, not what they turn in because it would get low scores.



Regarding the baseline you mention, I agree that it exists. I believe it is a trend that has evolved into a cultural acceptance by both cooks and judges. I also believe it is subject to change.

You are right, it is part of the culture, and that lays at the feet of the KCBS and how judges are trained.

Arlin_MacRae
10-21-2008, 02:39 PM
Unforgiven, I'd say you could come up with a decent 'wish list' from this thread to present to the KCBS board.

Great discussion, guys. We've been watching you with fingers on the button, but you've held it together nicely!

Arlin

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 02:43 PM
Unforgiven, I'd say you could come up with a decent 'wish list' from this thread to present to the KCBS board.

Great discussion, guys. We've been watching you with fingers on the button, but you've held it together nicely!

Arlin

I would agree with you, I would love to really hear from people regarding other ideas.

I had mentioned in a previous post about a category for rules changes on this board.

Care to comment?

Arlin_MacRae
10-21-2008, 02:58 PM
I would agree with you, I would love to really hear from people regarding other ideas.

I had mentioned in a previous post about a category for rules changes on this board.

Care to comment?

We do have a forum where you can present your ideas to the KCBS Board, actually. :-D Look up at the top of this, the Competion BBQ forum, and you'll find the "For the Board" forum. We're priveleged to have board members as Brethren so try and be as concise as you can. The wide discussion here is great, but you might try and be suggestive vs. questioning in that area. Good luck!

FatBoyz
10-21-2008, 04:24 PM
I really don't think that to question a broken judging system means you are not accepting personal responsibility for bad cooking days.

I also think it is incumbent on us all to expect a judging system that is fair and equitable. Without us, the KCBS is nothing. True you have the ďstarsĒ, the teams that seem to mostly be the ones that win, but that goes more to the point of cooking to a baseline, rather than allowing anything different or creative. That does not mean what they cook is not good, in fact, some of it is great.

Without the rest of us, there would not be enough teams to make it profitable for the sponsors; there would be no KCBS, even with the stars.
why is it brocken?tell me why cause you made food and did not get a pat on the backno the judges did not like my food there for there wrong bullchit if you suck deal with i am not winning i suck i am working on it

the level of whining in this tread is facking amazin

Stoke&Smoke
10-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Unforgiven http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?p=762596#post762596)
I really don't think that to question a broken judging system means you are not accepting personal responsibility for bad cooking days.

I also think it is incumbent on us all to expect a judging system that is fair and equitable. Without us, the KCBS is nothing. True you have the “stars”, the teams that seem to mostly be the ones that win, but that goes more to the point of cooking to a baseline, rather than allowing anything different or creative. That does not mean what they cook is not good, in fact, some of it is great.

Without the rest of us, there would not be enough teams to make it profitable for the sponsors; there would be no KCBS, even with the stars.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to disagree.

The person who won the Royal this year has only been at this for 3 or 4 years.He in fact was "one of the rest of us" until fairly recently. Not sure if he is one of the Brethren or not. But for the sake of this discussion that isn't important

While I sometimes agree that there should be more leeway, the point is that there is a consistency, across the country apparently when it comes to KCBS comps. And the simple truth is that anything too far outside that flavor profile range is not scored well. What tastes good at home simply is not competition BBQ, and isn't going to score well. The teams that consistently win do so not because of bad judging, but because they have learned to put out a good, consistent product that appeals to the average judge, and they know how to stay cool when something goes wrong and still turn in a respectable entry. In essence, they know how to perform under pressure.

I also think that if you were to look at judging over the years, you'd find that, as in everything else, things and tastes change. It may be true that chicken breast or something other than thighs don't usually do well this year, but I can tell you that there are more and more white meat and other non-thigh entries hitting the judges tables. Teams are anticipating that judges are getting tired of the same old thing, and tastes do change. But there is no substitute for the combination of a beautiful presentation and tasty, perfectly cooked meat.

As to the mentions of scoring of off category items (i.e. desserts, sides, etc.) by definition they are side categories, so since there are few rules, opinions and scores can vary widely.

I, for one, intend to keep practicing, keep working at it, and hope to be one of those that are frequently called. When I did finally get a third place call this year, I was on cloud nine, and you know what, a lot of members of those consitent winning teams congratulated me, and that made me feel even better! I may not always get a call, but I enjoy every competition to the fullest. And I also enjoy the freindship and camraderie of all my fellow teams. and that, to me, is what it's all about. If you're in it just for the medals and the money, you should probably quit now before you let the bitterness drive you to an early grave.

But that's probably just me

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 05:25 PM
The person who won the Royal this year has only been at this for 3 or 4 years.He in fact was "one of the rest of us" until fairly recently. Not sure if he is one of the Brethren or not. But for the sake of this discussion that isn't important


Thatís anecdotal and the exception to the rule, while it is awesome someone besides the stars won, it rarely happens in the regular competitions. I have noticed it happens more frequently in the larger ones though. I wonder if that could have anything to do with the judging J


And the simple truth is that anything too far outside that flavor profile range is not scored well.


I didnít see anything about Flavor Profile Range in the official rules. That is part of the problem. Having to cook to a baseline rather than having the freedom to create good BBQ.

The person next to me, probably has a different idea of what BBQ is, as do you, we all deserve a fair and equal chance at good scores.


The teams that consistently win do so not because of bad judging, but because they have learned to put out a good, consistent product, and they know how to stay cool when something goes wrong and still turn in a respectable entry.


You are making my point for me, cooking to a baseline is not that hard, you just have to be willing to do it. I just think that the judges should follow the written rules and judge things for what they are, not for what they are not.

Thatís why there are rules, so that they can be followed, the problem is that some judges donít follow them. there seems to be no oversight and no method of disputing a score. which does exist in all competitions I can think of.


I also think that if you were to look at judging over the years, you'd find that, as in everything else, things and tastes change.


Judging over the years is not really the issue, the state of judging now is. I think from all the positive comments on this thread, it is pretty clear that many people feel the same sense of frustration in regards to being judged fairly.


If you're in it just for the medals and the money, you should probably quit now before you let the bitterness drive you to an early grave.


I enjoy the people and the event also, but yes, given the great expense, I would like to win sometimes also, I have had calls in fact, but that does not have anything to do with the judging being fair and equitable.

We all deserve better as competitors.

CivilWarBBQ
10-21-2008, 07:22 PM
Good grief.

It's barbecue, not rocket science.

Maybe you need to try a different hobby like drag racing. That would satisfy your desire for precision to 4 decimal places.

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 07:40 PM
Good grief.

It's barbecue, not rocket science.

Maybe you need to try a different hobby like drag racing. That would satisfy your desire for precision to 4 decimal places.

Thank you, but I think I will stick to this one :-D.

Seriously though, I don't see anything wrong with wanting things to be fair.
Now cooking as science.... Let's go ask Alton Brown about that one!

MilitantSquatter
10-21-2008, 07:46 PM
Unforgiven - Welcome to our forum... How about a visit to our Cattle Call section so we can get to know you a bit better aside from just these posts in this thread. :lol:

Anyway.. nothing wrong with wanting things to be fair.. All of us can ask all we want but things are not gonna happen by magic. You say competitors deserve better. IMO, competitors deserve nothing more than we are willing to put back into this activity to improve it. Competing is a privilege not a right. Many of us like to complain and point out the problems (including me) but unless we are ready to step up and either lead the charge for change or start our own organizations with our own set of rules we like, I don't see how endless debate is gonna solve anything.

Again Welcome !!!

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 08:11 PM
Unforgiven - Welcome to our forum... How about a visit to our Cattle Call section so we can get to know you a bit better aside from just these posts in this thread. :lol:

Anyway.. nothing wrong with wanting things to be fair.. All of us can ask all we want but things are not gonna happen by magic. You say competitors deserve better. IMO, competitors deserve nothing more than we are willing to put back into this activity to improve it. Competing is a privilege not a right. Many of us like to complain and point out the problems (including me) but unless we are ready to step up and either lead the charge for change or start our own organizations with our own set of rules we like, I don't see how endless debate is gonna solve anything.

Again Welcome !!!


As I said earlier, I do plan on petitioning the board, I really want to hear from people though, I have always felt that debate is a great thing, that changes can only happen after everyone gets to speak.

Even the posters that are just negative, add something to the whole thing, even if they don't know it.

And hey, pointing out the problems is what leads to the solutions.

Now, I do have to take exception to one thing, We do all deserve better. This may not be a right, but it is not a privelige either. We are competitors in a contest, one that we pay to enter. the one right we do have, is to be treated fairly, and that everyone plays by the same rules, including the judges.

But thank you for the welcome. Just like the contests, the people are great here to.

BBQchef33
10-21-2008, 09:01 PM
geezz.... I look at it this way. Simple math, Im happy with anything above 7.

Regardless of the science behind the system, every team out there has to deal with the same system, and same judges. So IMO, that makes it fair. Same 'flawed' system is applied to all teams in the contest. I'm there to cook, drink tequilla, have some fun. Apply the same set of rules to all the teams, and the judging field is equal.

simplistic, minimalistic approach? yes, but I am paid all week long to overthink things. I dont want to do it on weekends. Gimme a rack of ribs, a box and a judge. Im happy.



advil?

anyone??

Advil?? Tylenol?

Morphine?

Unforgiven
10-21-2008, 09:22 PM
Regardless of the science behind the system, every team out there has to deal with the same system, and same judges. So IMO, that makes it fair.


That doesn't even make any sense. We do not all have the same judges and not all judges follow the written rules. I really don't understand why you would not want things to be equal for everyone.

How you score should be about whatyou have cooked, not a roll of the dice, otherwise, we could just roll dice and everyone would have a fair chance.


Same 'flawed' system is applied to all teams in the contest. I'm there to cook, drink tequilla, have some fun. Apply the same set of rules to all the teams, and the judging field is equal.


that's great for you, it really is, but some of us really take this seriously, and it is not just an occasion to drink and have fun.

KCBS does not promote itself as a fun drinkfest, it promotes itself as a professional competition. All I am saying is it should be one, not just talk the talk.

CTSmokehouse
10-21-2008, 09:25 PM
'geezz.... I look at it this way. Simple math, Im happy with anything above 7.

Morphine?

How about Jack Daniel's?

JD will make you happy...Morphine will make you constipated!

Best Wishes to you at the Jack!!!

You're right ... It's BBQ! Win or lose, same Judges... ... sometimes you get a break, sometimes you don't, over time it averages out... life is too serious... BBQ is a refuge and a great way to "meat" new people...I make serious decisions every day (life and death..).
BBQ is a way to get away from that and relax...I don't think that the system is broken and I do not take the results of the Judging personally or too seriously... For me it is a learning experience...and a great time!

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

BBQchef33
10-21-2008, 10:05 PM
that's great for you, it really is, but some of us really take this seriously, and it is not just an occasion to drink and have fun.

KCBS does not promote itself as a fun drinkfest, it promotes itself as a professional competition. All I am saying is it should be one, not just talk the talk.

Let me get this straight.
did u just insinuate that I don't take this seriously?

:confused:

I will leave you to leading this charge. Like any other system that has the human factor, it will have flaws. Its called subjectiveness. It is also part of my expectations when i close that 9x9 box.

IMO, the system works. It is obvious when you look at the top teams and consistent top placements. If you want Bobby Flay, and Alton Brown and Emeril to judge your food, so be it. I prefer to be judged by my peers in BBQ. Some are cooks, some are not. Most of them do the damn best they can and try to do it fairly and to the best of their ability. You may want fixed standards, but when the day comes that I am judged by a computer who sniffs my food, analyzes it and spits out the chemical breakdown of my rubs and sauces to ensure balance, and does carbon dating on my smoke penetration.. I am done. Until then, I look to the CBJ's to do their best and I look to KCBS to maintain the integrity of the contests and ensure smooth waters. I am not looking for rocket science, I am looking for a weekend to unwind, and relax and cook. If your looking for perfection and analysis.. may I suggest.... Chess.

Me, I'm going to take my not so serious ass and finish packing and preparing for the The Jack.

This weekend I will cook, have fun, and turn all my entries into the "incompetent, non standard, non professinal" judges you want to displace. They will judge, and I may or may not win or walk. But I will have done my best and will be confident that those judging my food will have done their best to judge fairly. I guarantee, i will have a 6 on the same page as the 9, and guess what.. i will say WTF.. accept it, and move on.

Bentley
10-21-2008, 10:54 PM
KCBS does not promote itself as a fun drinkfest, it promotes itself as a professional competition. All I am saying is it should be one, not just talk the talk.


It seems to me that KCBS does promote itself as the Premier sanctioning body in BBQ, and at times I find they fall short of that proclamation!


Like any other system that has the human factor, it will have flaws. Its called subjectiveness. It is also part of my expectations when i close that 9x9 box.

It is obvious when you look at the top teams and consistent top placements.

Very true words! And the latter is where I have the most trouble pointing fingers at judges!


and will be confident that those judging my food will have done their best to judge fairly.

Most, but unfortunately not all, that is where I have the problem. And we have no way to track the ones that don't!

CTSmokehouse
10-21-2008, 10:56 PM
Let me get this straight.
did u just insinuate that I don't take this seriously?

:confused:

I will leave you to leading this charge. Like any other system that has the human factor, it will have flaws. Its called subjectiveness. It is also part of my expectations when i close that 9x9 box.

IMO, the system works. It is obvious when you look at the top teams and consistent top placements. If you want Bobby Flay, and Alton Brown and Emeril to judge your food, so be it. I prefer to be judged by my peers in BBQ. Some are cooks, some are not. Most of them do the damn best they can and try to do it fairly and to the best of their ability. You may want fixed standards, but when the day comes that I am judged by a computer who sniffs my food, analyzes it and spits out the chemical breakdown of my rubs and sauces to ensure balance, and does carbon dating on my smoke penetration.. I am done. Until then, I look to the CBJ's to do their best and I look to KCBS to maintain the integrity of the contests and ensure smooth waters. I am not looking for rocket science, I am looking for a weekend to unwind, and relax and cook. If your looking for perfection and analysis.. may I suggest.... Chess.

Me, I'm going to take my not so serious ass and finish packing and preparing for the The Jack.

This weekend I will cook, have fun, and turn all my entries into the "incompetent, non standard, non professinal" judges you want to displace. They will judge, and I may or may not win or walk. But I will have done my best and will be confident that those judging my food will have done their best to judge fairly. I guarantee, i will have a 6 on the same page as the 9, and guess what.. i will say WTF.. accept it, and move on.


Well said...

Good luck at the Jack!

Yours in BBQ and passed my bedtime,

Cliff

HoDeDo
10-22-2008, 01:02 AM
First - let me say that I believe the system is not bad, considering we have to use humans, and subjective tastes. In addition to that - the judges are volunteers. Paying judges would obviously have a very different impact on costs to the cooks, but could give them a reason to "take it to the next level".
That doesn't even make any sense. We do not all have the same judges and not all judges follow the written rules. I really don't understand why you would not want things to be equal for everyone.

We all have a shot a getting the same judges, and we do hit different tables every time... Everyone else has the same chance you do. While it is a variable to contend with, I would hold that since we all have the same chance to hit a table... it is fair.

How you score should be about whatyou have cooked, not a roll of the dice, otherwise, we could just roll dice and everyone would have a fair chance.

I would say this is accurate - so lets go to your asian inspired chicken. What if I turned in a spedini I cooked in the smoker... It would taste wonderful - but it would still be a rustic italian style of chicken, not BBQ.
Just because I cooked it right, does not mean it should score well at a BBQ contest. I definately think flavor profiles are part of BBQ... and you do need to find one that pleases most of the judges. consistency, and a flavor that "pops" as BBQ for the judges is key.

The fact that teams that have that score well week after week proves out the judging is fair. And while it may not be precise... it does appear to have a modicum of accuracy.

Heck, In multiple states, and different size contests, I have gotten several Reserve Grand Championships this year... not quite good enough for that Grand. But it is consistent! :razz:



that's great for you, it really is, but some of us really take this seriously, and it is not just an occasion to drink and have fun.

KCBS does not promote itself as a fun drinkfest, it promotes itself as a professional competition. All I am saying is it should be one, not just talk the talk. KCBS does not promote itself as a professional competition. They do however promote themselves as the premier sanctioning entity for they style of contest... they are branching out into other styles as well -- leveraging this style of sanctioning.

I would say a large portion of the event organizers DO promote thier events as fun, and many include some other activity - music, car shows, and BBQ is NOT the main focus... usually it is some other cause/benefit. Rotary, Cancer Research, Brain Injury, Sertoma, you name it.... Without those organizations at the core... many of the events might not exist at all -- so keep in mind the core driver for these is to raise money for thier cause. The BBQ contest is just a vehicle to assist with that. Not saying there are not stand alone BBQ events... they are just few and far between. Even the American Royal, is obviously for educational benefit of the youth involved. If those programs went away, the contest would likely be very different.


Now, I do have to take exception to one thing, We do all deserve better. This may not be a right, but it is not a privelige either. We are competitors in a contest, one that we pay to enter. the one right we do have, is to be treated fairly, and that everyone plays by the same rules, including the judges.

It is definately a privledge. Most organizers are volunteers, most of the folks running around helping the teams are volunteers, as are the judges.
We pay to enter - but without all the support of the volunteers, we would not have the privledge of competing. Without organizers and judges, there is no contest to compete in. Then it is just a group of guys burning meat and sharing supposition (sounds like last weekend's bash:icon_cool) Until you are willing to pay more to enter, so that you can fund organizers and judges in addition to the funds being raised for the cause assoicated with the event I would say you do have the right is thank the judges, volunteers, and organizers for their time, and take the outcomes as they are presented. Win and lose gracefully.

I can tell you that one thing that is evident... is that folks that win alot... cook alot. I mean daily. I know more than one competitor, that practices almost daily. It isthose folks that win, and like anything else... practice makes perfect :)

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 07:24 AM
Let me get this straight.
did u just insinuate that I don't take this seriously?

I donít insinuate things. If I thought that, I would have said it plainly, I was referring to your statement that ďI'm there to cook, drink tequilla, have some funĒ

That is not my purpose for being there, and it certainly isnít the stated goal of the KCBS. They purport themselves to be an established, professional competition. I am only asking them to really be that.

If I offended you, you do have my apology, I probably could have said that in a different way.



I will leave you to leading this charge. Like any other system that has the human factor, it will have flaws. Itís called subjectiveness. It is also part of my expectations when i close that 9x9 box.

IMO, the system works. It is obvious when you look at the top teams and consistent top placements. If you want Bobby Flay, and Alton Brown and Emeril to judge your food, so be it.


True, most scoring systems have some flaws, look at gymnastics, but the system we use is seriously flawed, to the point of being broken.

The system does not work, thatís the problem. Our scores should not be based on if get a ďgoodĒ set of judges or not. Once again, I donít really see why anyone would not want a system that actually works, has oversight and transparency. Like every other professional competition.



I prefer to be judged by my peers in BBQ. Some are cooks, some are not. Most of them do the damn best they can and try to do it fairly and to the best of their ability. You may want fixed standards


Peer judging is ok, but it does not make this a professional compitetion. It makes it an organized backyard bbq contest. You are right MOST do try to do a great job. It is the ones that donít, the ones that donít follow the written rules and guidelines, that ruin it for all of us.

As for fixed standards, that is what the KCBS claims to have, they just donít enforce them or teach the judges well enough that they do it themselves.


Until then, I look to the CBJ's to do their best and I look to KCBS to maintain the integrity of the contests and ensure smooth waters. I am not looking for rocket science, I am looking for a weekend to unwind, and relax and cook.


Thatís the problem, the reality of it is, the scores have no integrity. It is a dice roll.



Me, I'm going to take my not so serious ass and finish packing and preparing for the The Jack.


I wish you the best!


This weekend I will cook, have fun, and turn all my entries into the "incompetent, non standard, non professional" judges you want to displace. They will judge, and I may or may not win or walk. But I will have done my best and will be confident that those judging my food will have done their best to judge fairly.


I never said incompetent, I do think that some do not take it seriously, and bring there own prejudices to the table, which is against the rules.

I donít want to displace them, I want them to act in a professional manner, one that is commensurate with the time, effort and money we all spend to do this.

I donít think that is asking for to much

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 07:31 AM
KCBS does not promote itself as a professional competition.


Read this
http://kcbs.us/news.php?id=81

She may not use the words "professional competition" right next to each other, but she sure uses the word professional a lot.

HoDeDo
10-22-2008, 07:44 AM
Read this
http://kcbs.us/news.php?id=81

She may not use the words "professional competition" right next to each other, but she sure uses the word professional a lot.

Actually that article states the same thing I have... that they are a santioning body.... not an event organizer. The comps are not thier events. - from your link:
Now in its 22nd year, KCBS is the official sanctioning body of almost 300 barbeque contests throughout the nation. The society uses a blind-judging process that allows teams to compete fairly and consistently across four primary categories: chicken, pork ribs, pulled pork and brisket.

From local fairs to state bbq championships, contests using the KCBS judging and sanctioning process are located in almost every state, coast to coast, border to border.


There is a very specific role they play.... They sanction judging for events that choose to employ thier format. Organizers run competitions. The two are mutually exclusive. I would challenge you to find a contest that KCBS is more than a santioning body, who provides reps to run cooks meetings, and the judging.

many competitors choose to go to KCBS sanctioned events -- due to the belief that the judging will be fair, and in a standardized format that they know. There are also many, many unsanctioned contests that use different judging than KCBS...

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 07:55 AM
Actually that article states the same thing I have... that they are a santioning body.... not an event organizer. The comps are not thier events. - from your link:
Now in its 22nd year, KCBS is the official sanctioning body of almost 300 barbeque contests throughout the nation. The society uses a blind-judging process that allows teams to compete fairly and consistently across four primary categories: chicken, pork ribs, pulled pork and brisket.

From local fairs to state bbq championships, contests using the KCBS judging and sanctioning process are located in almost every state, coast to coast, border to border.


There is a very specific role they play.... They sanction judging for events that choose to employ thier format. Organizers run competitions. The two are mutually exclusive. I would challenge you to find a contest that KCBS is more than a santioning body, who provides reps to run cooks meetings, and the judging.

many competitors choose to go to KCBS sanctioned events -- due to the belief that the judging will be fair, and in a standardized format that they know. There are also many, many unsanctioned contests that use different judging than KCBS...

She uses the word professional many times in the article to. If you have professional teams, a phrase she uses more than once, I don't think it is a leap that the organization itself is a professional one.

That is why there are KCBS events, and backyard events.

It amazes me that some peope just don't want a system that is fair to everyone. I can't see how it could do anything but help this "sport" for lack of a better word.

I am glad to see there are enough people that maybe we can affect some change. It is discouraging that rather than focus on what really matters (in this thread anyway), we digress into semantics about if KCBS is professional or not.

My guess would be they consider themselves to be professional and that is how they sell themselves to television and advertisers and festivals.

Nascar, IHRA, NHRA are all sanctioning bodies, they set the rules, just like KCBS and the rules should be followed by everyone

Sledneck
10-22-2008, 08:06 AM
sorry, couldn't resist...
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q82/boomn4x4/Gifs/beating-a-dead-horse.gif?t=1224537192bump