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Brew-B-Q
10-22-2008, 08:14 AM
Unforgiven, what is your team name? I compete in IL and am just curious if we've run up against each other. I've been next to a couple of teams from Naperville (names are escaping me) and just wondering if we've met.

HoDeDo
10-22-2008, 08:16 AM
I don’t insinuate things. If I thought that, I would have said it plainly, I was referring to your statement that “I'm there to cook, drink tequilla, have some fun”

If you think that you can't have fun, and be serious at the same time... that would be one area you might want to explore further at the competitions as well. I would submit to you, that the two are not mutually exclusive.

That is not my purpose for being there, and it certainly isn’t the stated goal of the KCBS. They purport themselves to be an established, professional competition. I am only asking them to really be that.

KCBS clearly states thier goals -


KCBS is the official sanctioning body of almost 300 barbeque contests throughout the nation.
Membership in KCBS ranges from backyard grillers to professional cook teams that travel the country for prizes and money, from BBQ “fans” to “certified” barbeque judges
The society recently rebranded itself, adopting the slogan of “America’s BBQ Experts”, and has started a PR campaign that includes a custom-designed info/demo tour that is making its way to 24 of the nation’s largest barbeque and food festivals.




True, most scoring systems have some flaws, look at gymnastics, but the system we use is seriously flawed, to the point of being broken.

This is your opinion... When I see that a top caliber team do well in 6 different states... I would say that means the system, while flawed, does work. We all have a shot, and the best food makes it to the top - regardless of location. Week after week, and year over year... a set of names comes to the top... those folks produce food that deserves to be there and has been chosen that way. I've eaten entries from many teams that do well -- there is a reason it is up there.


Peer judging is ok, but it does not make this a professional compitetion. It makes it an organized backyard bbq contest. You are right MOST do try to do a great job. It is the ones that don’t, the ones that don’t follow the written rules and guidelines, that ruin it for all of us.

We don't hire these judges - if these were professional events, we would be writing checks to experts to come and judge. They are volunteers.
KCBS "certifies" (they put it in parentheses too, on their website) judges - and it is a great tool to drive membership. Peer judging is at the core of the KCBS. And by thier definition - members go from backyarders to professionals... so you will get both in your judging pool. If you dont like that, do not compete in these style of events. Drastic changes, and massive increases in cost would need to occur to get to the "professional" level that you want to achieve. Salary and travel for judges that were professionals would change your entry fees many times over. We choose to compete in these events, knowing that the judges are volunteers.

As for fixed standards, that is what the KCBS claims to have, they just don’t enforce them or teach the judges well enough that they do it themselves.
Again, they teach them well enough that the cream still rises to the top.
You can only get so much out of a group of volunteers. I think your expectations are skewed. There are professional events out there... why not pay the several $1000 dollars it takes to enter them, and go compete on the level you feel you deserve?


I don’t want to displace them, I want them to act in a professional manner, one that is commensurate with the time, effort and money we all spend to do this.

I spend the money knowing that a group of folks are nice enough to volunteer to come and judge me, and hope they get quality food. If you want a professional... professionals are paid.

I don’t think that is asking for to much

I think you may be asking for too much from a KCBS sanctioned event. Most organizers want local involvement in thier events... judging and cooking. That means you have backyard guys next to "the pros"....same with the judges, you will have newbies, next to certified master judges.
We know it going in, many of the reps wear "no whining" badges - they do this for a reason. Don't take this thing tooooo seriously. You have to accept the system and look for incremental changes that help - but going "professional" with the judges simply isnt realistic in my humble opinion.

Sledneck
10-22-2008, 08:17 AM
I LOVE the current system

HoDeDo
10-22-2008, 08:20 AM
I love sled.....

Another example.... how else could you go from the East coast with 13th place chicken,.... then get 13th place chicken at the royal.

NOW THAT is consisitent. You non serious farker.....

Hey Buddy..... got aany..........???? :)

Ok, I'm done beating the dead horse too :) Well almost :)

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 08:23 AM
I think you may be asking for too much from a KCBS sanctioned event. Most organizers want local involvement in thier events... judging and cooking. That means you have backyard guys next to "the pros"....same with the judges, you will have newbies, next to certified master judges.
We know it going in, many of the reps wear "no whining" badges - they do this for a reason. Don't take this thing tooooo seriously. You have to accept the system and look for incremental changes that help - but going "professional" with the judges simply isnt realistic in my humble opinion.


I do take it seriously, it is a very expensive undertaking. I do not think asking for changing that make a broken system fair is whining.

Of course it is realistic, it is just hard and there would be a curve. I think that people who have posted actual suggestions, rather than just be negative, have shown many different ways that this could all be more fair.

The "stars" of this thing, do not have $50,000 rigs because they don't take is serioulsy, and I am NOT saying that they are not great cooks, they are. But I do think they have found that baseline that has to be cooked to, and that is one of the major flaws.

I would bet that there are those, that have just a great food, but have low scores, because it is not the baseline.

and that is unfair to everyone.

CivilWarBBQ
10-22-2008, 08:36 AM
The flaw here is you keep saying the scoring system is "broken" as if your opinion were fact. The replies indicate that the majority of posters here do not agree with that assessment.

Of course there is room for tweaking, and this is done by the BOD from time to time. But the simple fact is that if KCBS were "broken" it wouldn't have become the largest cooking competition sanctioning organization in the world.

You've expressed your opinion and this community has responded. At this point I think you are just posting for the sake of arguing. Like HoDeDo I too am done here.

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 08:49 AM
The flaw here is you keep saying the scoring system is "broken" as if your opinion were fact. The replies indicate that the majority of posters here do not agree with that assessment.

Of course there is room for tweaking, and this is done by the BOD from time to time. But the simple fact is that if KCBS were "broken" it wouldn't have become the largest cooking competition sanctioning organization in the world.

You've expressed your opinion and this community has responded. At this point I think you are just posting for the sake of arguing. Like HoDeDo I too am done here.


It is my opinion, if a scoring system does not produce fair, equal results, it is broken.

I see a lot of posters that agree actually.

I have to wonder why certain people are more concerned with proving me wrong, than actually contribute to something in a positive manner.

But to each their own.

This an other forums are filled with comments from judges that violate the written rules.

I think everone knows that the table your food lands at is a crap shoot and can make a huge difference in scores.

If some of you want to pretend that is not the case, fine. It is your right. I would rather make this fair to everyone. In doing so, it only elevates the entire process to a respectable level, one that outsiders can look at and take seriously.


I have to say this again, the "stars" of this show, do not spend all that they do, because it is a fun hobby, they do it so they can take anywhere from $1000 to $5000 home on an average weekend.


Now me personally, I don't see myself EVER being in that crowd, but I would like to be judged fairly and have everyone judged by the same rules. I see no harm in that. I am not sure why others do.

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 08:53 AM
But the simple fact is that if KCBS were "broken" it wouldn't have become the largest cooking competition sanctioning organization in the world.


I am sorry for making two commments on your post, but i wanted this seperate.

Sure it would, because as you have noted, many don't care if it works or not.

And has others have said, thay are here to "Drink and have fun"

HoDeDo
10-22-2008, 08:58 AM
She uses the word professional many times in the article to. If you have professional teams, a phrase she uses more than once, I don't think it is a leap that the organization itself is a professional one.

She also uses the term Backyard, BBQ Fan, etc.... they are not exclusive to "pros" - and thier membership includes all.

Again, KCBS does not run the events... they provide the sanctioning. IF an event wanted "professional" judging, they could buy it. There are groups that exist to provide it other than KCBS.

I am glad to see there are enough people that maybe we can affect some change. It is discouraging that rather than focus on what really matters (in this thread anyway), we digress into semantics about if KCBS is professional or not.

That truly is key... you have folks (backyard guys and pros) competing side by side, with peer judges. that IS KCBS,

My guess would be they consider themselves to be professional and that is how they sell themselves to television and advertisers and festivals.

I believe the statement about thier rebranding addresses it... so your guess is wrong -- they are actually trying to get to more folks, and a BBQ society that has value for its members... and spreads que to the masses... not just professionals. They get the advertisiers and festivals by promising to get out and interact with the people and have a presence for the audiences at these events. That is separate from the sanctioning of the judging. It's all in that article you referenced.

Nascar, IHRA, NHRA are all sanctioning bodies, they set the rules, just like KCBS and the rules should be followed by everyone

To compete in Nascar, IHRA etc. you have to meet a minimum standard to compete... perform at a certain level... Anyone with the entry fee and a desire to try can enter most BBQ contests (including KCBS sanctioned ones) It goes to the fact that some other organization, Brian Inj. Foundation, for example... wants as many entrants as they can get - to raise money for thier charity.

I can enter with a weber kettle, and lawn chair, and someone else can bring thier mobile catering rig.

Also - All those sanctioning bodies PAY thier officials and judges.
Again, i think you would not see organizers willing to support the costs it would take to bring "professional" judges to thier events. KCBS, while flawed, provides a great service, and it meets a need in the marketplace for both organizers and contestants. Heck part of the fun of competing is working within the confines of the judging. Partof the challenge. I think the system works, as I can score well in Arkansas, Ks, Nebraska, Mo, IA, and I will hopefully test that theory in florida this coming season as well.

Arlin_MacRae
10-22-2008, 09:02 AM
Unforgiven, are you a member of the KCBS?

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 09:05 AM
To compete in Nascar, IHRA etc. you have to meet a minimum standard to compete... perform at a certain level... Anyone with the entry fee and a desire to try can enter most BBQ contests (including KCBS sanctioned ones) It goes to the fact that some other organization, Brian Inj. Foundation, for example... wants as many entrants as they can get - to raise money for thier charity.

I can enter with a weber kettle, and lawn chair, and someone else can bring thier mobile catering rig.

Also - All those sanctioning bodies PAY thier officials and judges.
Again, i think you would not see organizers willing to support the costs it would take to bring "professional" judges to thier events. KCBS, while flawed, provides a great service, and it meets a need in the marketplace for both organizers and contestants. Heck part of the fun of competing is working within the confines of the judging. Partof the challenge. I think the system works, as I can score well in Arkansas, Ks, Nebraska, Mo, IA, and I will hopefully test that theory in florida this coming season as well.





None of that is really relevant in terms of what is at issue here, if the judging and scoring system needs fixing.

From now on I am not going to even go into all the side issues. I let myself become defensive, rather than focus on the important issue,

That the judging system is seriously flawed, if nor completly broken.

Thos of you who would like to have a hand in making changes, PLEASE comment. It would be great to hear from some positive people.

Jorge
10-22-2008, 09:18 AM
Besides your experience with numbers and statistics, what BBQ experience do you have that makes you a subject matter expert? Absolutely no flame intended. I'd like to be able to form an opinion as to your expertise and credibility.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-22-2008, 09:24 AM
I know how to make the system better, start with plowboy and end with blues hog!!!

Arlin_MacRae
10-22-2008, 09:26 AM
Unforgiven, you're coming across as a troll. You've not introduced yourself, you've not answered anyone's simple questions. We respect others' opinions, but trolls we don't tolerate.

Arlin

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 09:29 AM
Besides your experience with numbers and statistics, what BBQ experience do you have that makes you a subject matter expert? Absolutely no flame intended. I'd like to be able to form an opinion as to your expertise and credibility.


The question seems to be one intended to invalidate my opinion, but I will answer ir, because I think it is fair at it's core.

I have owned businesses involved in and worked in the food service industry for 25 years. I have trained with one of the Master chefs of america (there are only around 40 of them). I have won "fancy" cooking comps.

I have even had some calls in these competitons.

But none of that means I can cook bbq like some of you!

In my very first post I talked about how horrible some turn-ins were. I am learning a lot from some of the people I meet at these comps.

None of that is the real point though. Being able to see how things are broken has nothing to do with any of that.

Obviously, the system is seriously flawed. All I want to do it make it fair, and level the playing field for everyone involved.

Will fixing these things make me a great bbq cook? NO. but I will know that I got the scores I deserved, Low ones, or high ones, which right now, is not the case.

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 09:32 AM
Unforgiven, you're coming across as a troll. You've not introduced yourself, you've not answered anyone's simple questions. We respect others' opinions, but trolls we don't tolerate.

Arlin


Arlin,
this is not about my team, these are my opinions. Sorry if that offends you. If you are looking for a reason to invalidate me, and call me names, that's fine.

I have answered a lot of questions, many of which were not really relevant to this thread. But no, I won't be doing it anymore.

I hope people will see this for what it is, an attempt to make things fair and equal.

goodsmokebbq
10-22-2008, 09:37 AM
What isn't fair? What isn't equal? I still don't get your argument.

ique
10-22-2008, 09:38 AM
That doesn't even make any sense. We do not all have the same judges and not all judges follow the written rules. I really don't understand why you would not want things to be equal for everyone.

I don't want all the same judges. If you think competition cooks are all cooking the same now, with little creativity, wait until we have judges that are trained on what 'good' bbq is and what 'bad' bbq is.

There are cooks that win consistently regardless if the tables are full of master judges or newbies. They can compel pretty much anyone to say 'damn thats good'. Being able to do that with a wide variety of judge types (new system, old system, newbie, master, KC, nebs, FBA etc) is a lot harder than cooking to a normalized system taught to professional judges.

This is really what BBQ is about... appealing to people from all walks of life... Trying to make competition BBQ into a lab experiment would be a great detriment to the wild growth it has seen recently.

Sure, the system could use some tweaks. But as a cook who has been doing this for 10 years, in my opinion, the KCBS system is definitely not broken.

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 09:41 AM
What isn't fair? What isn't equal? I still don't get your argument.


Read the previous posts, if you don't find my reasoning there, explaining it again won't really serve a purpose.

Brew-B-Q
10-22-2008, 09:42 AM
If you are looking for a reason to invalidate me, and call me names, that's fine.


I'm not sure that asking who you are is an attempt to invalidate you. I personally just wanted to know if you were one of two teams I've met from naperville. I know it's a big city and all, but just curious. Geez. :roll:

Jorge
10-22-2008, 11:30 AM
This thread was locked temporarily by me. All opinions are welcome, as long as they are relevant to the thread and remain respectful.

Scottie
10-22-2008, 11:51 AM
Arlin,
I hope people will see this for what it is, an attempt to make things fair and equal.


Seeing that we are neighbors. We must of competed at some of the same contests. By your standards, I should feel insulted by your standards that I was allowed to win any contest that I have won. Which isn't fair. Especially seeing the record I have had for these local contests the last few months.

As for equal and fair. Should we treat this like kids soccer? Just give everyone a big ribbon and not make any winners, cause Unforgiven hasn't figured out to cook for a broad range of judges? To me, that is all about cooking for blind judges. Making sure we can hit a chili head or someone that doens't like spicy... We need to make out product fall somewhere inbetween. Should I apologize for being able to do that?

Honestly, I am not sure what state you want to take KCBS competitions?

Scottie Johnson
KCBS # 7644
cancersuckschicago.com
Westmont, IL

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 12:09 PM
You have done excellent, and if you feel insulted, I would not understand why. You cook exactly what the judges think is great bbq and you deserve to win.

What I am saying is that there are many instances where those of us in the bottom to middle tiers, get very uneven scoring.


[quote=Scottie;763472
.Making sure we can hit a chili head or someone that doens't like spicy... We need to make out product fall somewhere inbetween. Should I apologize for being able to do that?


No, you should not have to apologize for knowing how to cook to the largest common denominator, but you have helped me make my point.

The rules do not state that there is only one accepted style or method or flavor of bbq. In fact, the rules allow for many things that some judges will give you low scores for trying (pulled chicken, no garnnish for example)

The judges should be better trained and more accepting of bbq other than a standardized baseline bbq.

Why should anyone have to cook something to “win” rather than cook something great and be scored fairly on it? Fairly meaning accepting it for what it is, not what it is not.

Solidkick
10-22-2008, 12:19 PM
The rules do not state that there is only one accepted style or method or flavor of bbq. In fact, the rules allow for many things that some judges will give you low scores for trying (pulled chicken, no garnnish for example)

This is the competition part of a "BBQ contest" if you know it's going to score low, then why do it??........learn to compete


The judges should be better trained and more accepting of bbq other than a standardized baseline bbq.

Heard of the "WOW" factor?? That's when you try to make and turn in the best product you can, knowing that the judge is going to take 1,2,3 bites and you want the judge to go "WOW" i want more......again it is about learning to compete.

Why should anyone have to cook something to “win” rather than cook something great and be scored fairly on it? Fairly meaning accepting it for what it is, not what it is not.

Because it is a competition for cash prizes....most everyone here on the forum can cook good BBQ, not everyone can compete..........seems like that may be more the issue for you than the judges........

rbinms33
10-22-2008, 12:22 PM
The rules do not state that there is only one accepted style or method or flavor of bbq. In fact, the rules allow for many things that some judges will give you low scores for trying (pulled chicken, no garnnish for example)

The judges should be better trained and more accepting of bbq other than a standardized baseline bbq.

Why should anyone have to cook something to “win” rather than cook something great and be scored fairly on it? Fairly meaning accepting it for what it is, not what it is not.

I would bet that there are those, that have just a great food, but have low scores, because it is not the baseline.

and that is unfair to everyone.

I have really tried to keep an open mind during this discussion but this is going to be geared more towards any less than perfect judging that may be occuring and this "baseline" that keeps being referenced. While I think the system works for what it was designed for, any system in existence can be improved upon. I do believe there are judges out there that score lower than others, but I also believe there are judges out there that score higher than others. I rarely hear complaining about the high scoring judges although they are doing just as much a disservice as the low scoring ones because they also give someone an undeserving score. For those that do this on purpose, I believe they should be dealt with and I think KCBS is working on a way to identify them and provide additional training/consulting as needed. I believe you will have more chance of affecting this than what I am going to discuss below.

The judges above are the ones on the outside edges of the bell curve. Let's discuss an average judge though. In fact, let's take me as an example. I've been eating BBQ, albeit mainly Memphis style BBQ, for 30+ years now. I also cook BBQ for family and friends and have competed on the (now) MBN circuit for several years. I've eaten BBQ from states that use vinegar based, mustard based, mayo based as well as my native tomato based sauces. I've had Tex-Mex style BBQ and I've also eaten BBQ with no sauce that's just as good as the sauced product. That being said, I could probably count the number of times on one hand that I've had some form of Asian style BBQ, or BBQ with rum and allspice (although I am somewhat familiar with Jerk style cooking), or BBQ with wasabi sauce. Sure it's BBQ, but it seems to be more in the realm of a culinary creation rather than "traditional" BBQ. Traditional BBQ is what I would find in a restaurant such as Rendezvous, Corky's, Arthur Bryant's, Oklahoma Joe's, Top's and the other well known establishments. There's also the other thousands of "hole in the wall" BBQ joints that exist. Is it a coincidence that these establishments cook very similar to this baseline you speak of? The type of BBQ from these establishments is what I initially used to determine my average 6 score, so in a way I suppose I am supporting the baseline by judging the way I do. But I have to rely upon this experience to help me render a decision when the standards do not apply. While I cannot speak for every judge, I would hope that I am not too out of line with my thought process here.

With that in mind, if you put your Asian BBQ chicken entry before me, I would only have my "traditional" BBQ experience in addition to the existing standards to determine whether it is above or below average. Knowing that, is it fair for me to judge your turn-in? I'm not saying I would give it a low or high score, I just have nothing on it's level to compare it with to be able to judge it on it's own merit, especially in the taste category. The only thing I can compare it against is what I consider in my mind to be an average 6 based on the type of BBQ I have been exposed to. I am always open to new things but I am very curious to see what type of training can be provided to me as a volunteer judge to make my palette more diverse than what is already known and learned to me when it comes to BBQ. I am also curious to know what types of standards/rules/guidelines you would suggest to impact/enforce this.

I wish you well in your endeavors, just try not to overcomplicate a simple system of standards and measure that for the most part is serving it's purpose. If it was THAT broken, I seriously doubt there would be hundreds of cook teams trusting it to render a decision each week.

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 12:46 PM
I rarely hear complaining about the high scoring judges although they are doing just as much a disservice as the low scoring ones because they also give someone an undeserving score.


I did complain about a high score I was given, in one of my first posts. To me it demonstrates just how broken this is. It was a brisket that was so bad I almost did not turn it in. I got 3’s 4’s and a couple 5’s. one judge gave me 7’s and 8’s

But in a situation that was reversed, that could have caused real problems.




The judges above are the ones on the outside edges of the bell curve


But they are the ones that screw it up for all of us.


I've been eating BBQ, albeit mainly Memphis style BBQ, for 30+ years now. I also cook BBQ for family and friends and have competed on the (now) MBN circuit for several years. I've eaten BBQ from states that use vinegar based, mustard based, mayo based as well as my native tomato based sauces. I've had Tex-Mex style BBQ and I've also eaten BBQ with no sauce that's just as good as the sauced product. That being said, I could probably count the number of times on one hand that I've had some form of Asian style BBQ, or BBQ with rum and allspice (although I am somewhat familiar with Jerk style cooking), or BBQ with wasabi sauce. Sure it's BBQ, but it seems to be more in the realm of a culinary creation rather than "traditional" BBQ. Traditional BBQ is what I would find in a restaurant such as Rendezvous, Corky's, Arthur Bryant's, Oklahoma Joe's, Top's and the other well known establishments. There's also the other thousands of "hole in the wall" BBQ joints that exist. Is it a coincidence that these establishments cook very similar to this baseline you speak of? The type of BBQ from these establishments is what I initially used to determine my average 6 score, so in a way I suppose I am supporting the baseline by judging the way I do. But I have to rely upon this experience to help me render a decision when the standards do not apply. While I cannot speak for every judge, I would hope that I am not too out of line with my thought process here.


See, that is the whole problem, you yourself, who seems like a thoughtful person, open to new tastes, has not been taught as a judge, how to critique food in a way that allows anything outside of “traditional” bbq.

That is KCBS’s responsibility and we as competitors deserve that much.

And it may be that all KCBS has to do is define to cooks what they should be shooting for, but what they do now is say “bbq”, and that can mean many things.

BBQ is a culinary creation, almost all food is. We should be allowed to create great food and not be penalized because it is not like the next guys.


I am also curious to know what types of standards/rules/guidelines you would suggest to impact/enforce this.


I in no way have all the answers, that’s why I joined this thread. I regret it degraded into people taking it so personally, but that’s a choice they have to make.


I think enforcing the rules that exist is a great start


Designing a matrix for scoring that does not eliminate taste, but helps people be more discerning would be good also


I love one person’s idea of one table of judges for each category. That would be so fair. I do see the problems that would come with it though.


Maybe even set standards for cooks as to what is bbq and what it is not


Iron Man competitions! (just because I like them)


I would like to hear from everyone who thinks is has flaws and what suggestions they have though. I in now way think I am or should be the person who decides any of this. I just really don’t like that a competition that is so expensive, and is filled with such great people, should have such a poor system for scoring.


If it was THAT broken, I seriously doubt there would be hundreds of cook teams trusting it to render a decision each week.


There are not many choices out there, at least not in my area and as you can see from some of the posts, some are more interested in how drunk they can get than getting good scores.

Scottie
10-22-2008, 01:14 PM
What I am saying is that there are many instances where those of us in the bottom to middle tiers, get very uneven scoring.



Do you think that I don't get slammed by judges? I did OK last weekend... I had one 5 for taste for my pork. It also happened to finish in 3rd place overall. Another gave me a 6... I also had a few 6's sprinkled in my scoresheet... So let's not pretend that everyone doesn't get slammed. I probably just don't get slammed as much as you, because I am consistent with my product.

I think what the problem is is consistency. If I don't score, I usually know why. The reason? Because my product is the same from weekend to weekend. Sometimes I hit the right table and others I don't. Am I po'd about it? You bet I am. But I also have forgotten about it by the next weekend.

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 01:21 PM
Do you think that I don't get slammed by judges? I did OK last weekend... I had one 5 for taste for my pork. It also happened to finish in 3rd place overall. Another gave me a 6... I also had a few 6's sprinkled in my scoresheet... So let's not pretend that everyone doesn't get slammed. I probably just don't get slammed as much as you, because I am consistent with my product.

I think what the problem is is consistency. If I don't score, I usually know why. The reason? Because my product is the same from weekend to weekend. Sometimes I hit the right table and others I don't. Am I po'd about it? You bet I am. But I also have forgotten about it by the next weekend.

Scottie,

We should not have to accept getting "slammed" by judges. We all pay alot of money to do this, and yes I have seen your rig, you pay a lot more than most :)

KCBS should be training these judges properly so we get scored properly.

Everyone here, including you, talks a lot about "consistent" cooking. Why should we expect less than "consistent" judging?

A judges job is hard, no doubt, but they choose to do it and I don't think asking for "consistency" is asking to much.

It is possible, it will be a long process, but it is possible. So why not make this the best?

Scottie
10-22-2008, 01:29 PM
Honestly, I think you need som emore experience out on the circuit before jumping to these conclusions. And that is just my guess that you haven't been out on the circuit for long.

Let's face it... Judging is subjective. You can't teach judging. You can't teach judges that this box is a 9 and this one is a 4. That is why we have individual judges. We can teach them what needs to be in a box and what can't be in a box. But we can't teach them what to write down.

To me.. It's that old adage. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. That is how I look at judging. And yes, I am a cbj # 2714.... Because I think something is a 9, does not mean that the entire table thinks it should be a 9...

Trust me when I say... Every single box I put out at a contest is a 9... At least in my opinion.

butts a fire
10-22-2008, 01:31 PM
Having read this thread I have a couple of things I am going to add.

First I do not understand what matrix you are going to want to impliment that will take the subjectivity out of BBQ judging. If you have one I would be interested in seeing it.

Secondly having competed for 4 years now I do have a good idea when one of my entries is going to score well and when it is not good enough more specifically with my rib entry I can taste them now before I turn them in and know if I will get a call or not reguardless of the table it hits.

I also don't see how you can do away with the baseline in a competition any competition. For Chili competitions there is a baseline for what chili should taste like it should taste like chili. BBQ at a BBQ competition should taste like BBQ, For example I can cook a killer jerk chicken on the grill but I don not turn it in at "BBQ" competitions because it my be cooked within the rules but it is not a Jerk Chicken competition it is a BBQ competition.

As a judge if I were to get an asian style grilled chicken breast I would score it for what it is an asian stlye breast turned in at a BBQ competition this would not affect my appearance or tenderness scores but it would score lower in the taste section because it is not BBQ chicken it is asian style chicken.

I do not think the system is "Broken" I think it is actually quite fair I run middle of the pack more often than not and I am there because I deserve to be my BBQ was not good enough to score better.

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 01:36 PM
Honestly, I think you need som emore experience out on the circuit before jumping to these conclusions. And that is just my guess that you haven't been out on the circuit for long.

Let's face it... Judging is subjective. You can't teach judging. You can't teach judges that this box is a 9 and this one is a 4. That is why we have individual judges. We can teach them what needs to be in a box and what can't be in a box. But we can't teach them what to write down.

To me.. It's that old adage. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. That is how I look at judging. And yes, I am a cbj # 2714.... Because I think something is a 9, does not mean that the entire table thinks it should be a 9...

Trust me when I say... Every single box I put out at a contest is a 9... At least in my opinion.


Once again, and with all due respect, why is consistency so important for cooks, but should not be expected from judging?

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 01:51 PM
I also don't see how you can do away with the baseline in a competition any competition. For Chili competitions there is a baseline for what chili should taste like it should taste like chili. BBQ at a BBQ competition should taste like BBQ, For example I can cook a killer jerk chicken on the grill but I don not turn it in at "BBQ" competitions because it my be cooked within the rules but it is not a Jerk Chicken competition it is a BBQ competition.

As a judge if I were to get an asian style grilled chicken breast I would score it for what it is an asian stlye breast turned in at a BBQ competition this would not affect my appearance or tenderness scores but it would score lower in the taste section because it is not BBQ chicken it is asian style chicken.


I am not sure where you go for chili cook offs, but I have seen the most amazing varieties of any food in chili competitions. Made with beef, chicken, pork, lamb, vegetarian, hot, mild, 5 alarm, you name it, it is in a chili comp.


Jerk chicken IS Jamacian BBQ In fact true jerk is smoked with pimento wood

Here is a great article on a matrix.

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ddd6dkzs_12g2jnb3fr

I do have a question for you. why is asian bbq not bbq? it is not grilled asian breast, it was asian bbq. thousands of years old.

Paola Greg
10-22-2008, 01:52 PM
Unforgiven,
Since 2004 when I joined the KCBS and cooked my first sanctioned KCBS contest I and my teammate have cooked 65 sanctioned contests, turned in 260 entries, and been judged by 1560 judges. That's my background. Some here on this forum have cooked a lot less, some a lot more.

Along the way during our brief career the KCBS has made minor but good changes to the judging and scoring system, guidelines, and instructions, which have made the overall system better in my opinion, and they will continue to do so, based on suggestions and ideas from association members like yourself. But the bottom line is I personally do not think the system is 'broke' and never has been. I have seen our scores be more consistent and our results improve, and we have been more succesfull each year; but most of that I honestly contribute to having more experience and cooking better bbq.

If you would like to discuss this further, I would welcome a PM from you with your phone number, and will call you on my nickel, at a time convenient to you.

Scottie
10-22-2008, 01:53 PM
Once again, and with all due respect, why is consistency so important for cooks, but should not be expected from judging?

So you want consistency from a pool of individual judges? An individual cook team you can expect consistency, but not different judges...

Again, I think you just need more experience with this whole comp cooking that we do...

Sledneck
10-22-2008, 01:55 PM
Unforgiven... are you a member of KCBS?

goodsmokebbq
10-22-2008, 01:57 PM
[quote=Unforgiven;763645]
Here is a great article on a matrix.

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ddd6dkzs_12g2jnb3fr

/quote]

Instead of 3 subjective categories you think nine will be better???

HBMTN
10-22-2008, 02:00 PM
Considering something else, I guess we have to also consider the judges that may give scores of 8's and 9's to a meat that much lower. If we talk about the low scores of 4's and 5's that we feel should be higher how many of us have gotten more than we deserve. At my first competitions I cooked pulled pork that I felt ( to this day ) was some of the worst I had ever cooked. At the awards ceremony I got called up for 10th place out of 54 teams at a State Championship. So I guess it can go both ways.

How about an 8 judge system, and the judges with the lowest and highest over all scores at the table get dropped and the scores of the remaining six judges stand. Just giving some idea's to think about.

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 02:00 PM
So you want consistency from a pool of individual judges? An individual cook team you can expect consistency, but not different judges...

Again, I think you just need more experience with this whole comp cooking that we do...

yes I do scottie. Other forms of competition have found a way to be consistent. I do understand it can never be perfect.

I also do not think it is out of line to expect the scoring to be fair and equitable, to be consistent.

The Judges can be taught to do better, they can be taught to follow the rules already in place.

It is not impossible, and it is what is fair.

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 02:01 PM
[quote=Unforgiven;763645]
Here is a great article on a matrix.

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ddd6dkzs_12g2jnb3fr

/quote]

Instead of 3 subjective categories you think nine will be better???


they are just ideas. Do you have any?

rbinms33
10-22-2008, 02:03 PM
Once again, and with all due respect, why is consistency so important for cooks, but should not be expected from judging?

Let me try to explain with pork.

If Scottie cooks a boston butt each and every time using the same method, same ingredients and the same presentation, he can be pretty consistent as a cook.

If I judged Scottie's turn-in every time, I'm sure he'd get the same score from me every time. But how many cooks out there do exactly the same thing as another cook? Everybody has their little "spin" they put on things. I might see garnish, I might not. I might see pulled chunks, I might see chopped, I might see slices, I might see money muscle slices, I might see money muscle slices that are sauced (or not). I might taste salt and pepper on one and then a hint of chili powder or cayenne on another. This entry may have bitten through easy but this other one took a little bit more effort. But wait a minute, the second piece was thicker than the first.

This is what I have to interpret and score each and every time I sit down at a table to judge. With all those different attributes on any given presentation, I'm surprised as judges that we do score the same as much as we do. The only way to better ensure consistency would be to make a standard for each and every possible attribute for a turn-in. But then you'd still have interpretation differences from judge to judge. And an even bigger question, who decides "what is standard" for each attribute?

goodsmokebbq
10-22-2008, 02:06 PM
[quote=goodsmokebbq;763654]


they are just ideas. Do you have any?

I'm pretty happy the way it is, keep it simple...

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 02:10 PM
This is what I have to interpret and score each and every time I sit down at a table to judge. With all those different attributes on any given presentation, I'm surprised as judges that we do score the same as much as we do. The only way to better ensure consistency would be to make a standard for each and every possible attribute for a turn-in. But then you'd still have interpretation differences from judge to judge. And an even bigger question, who decides "what is standard" for each attribute?


I understand everything you are saying. That is what makes it hard. Making this all more consistent and fair, would take time. I think it is worth the effort in the end.

I think we are starting to get good suggestions again from some people, so who knows what the end result will be.

My only purpose to any of this is to make the KCBS better for everyone.

Sledneck
10-22-2008, 02:11 PM
My only purpose to any of this is to make the KCBS better for everyone.
Are you a member of KCBS?

U2CANQUE
10-22-2008, 02:12 PM
talk about strange scoring, I had a 3 from one judge on taste with my pork....thank god that was dropped because the rest of the scoring was enough to take me to third place pork....I didnt get pissed about it, just took it for what it was, and moved on....it sucks when it happens....but, just going for consistant is the goal.....

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
10-22-2008, 02:13 PM
I must say that I am enjoying the thread, the discussion is fantastic. I can also say that this was my second year of competition and have seen an increase in my scores, the more I learn (THANKS BRETHERN) the better my scores get. the more consistant i cook the more consistant my scores are becoming. I do belive there may be a little luck involved but for the most part when I score poorly I know it b4 it hits the judges table.

Sledneck
10-22-2008, 02:16 PM
talk about strange scoring, I had a 3 from one judge on taste with my pork....thank god that was dropped because the rest of the scoring was enough to take me to third place pork....I didnt get pissed about it, just took it for what it was, and moved on....it sucks when it happens....but, just going for consistant is the goal.....that judge could of bit in to a piece of fat etc. You never know

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 02:24 PM
What does everyone think about a creativity score? sort of Appearance\Taste\Tenderness\Creativity
and really promote differences, rather than sameness?

I kind of think it is too much, but it was suggested.

Sledneck
10-22-2008, 02:34 PM
What does everyone think about a creativity score? sort of Appearance\Taste\Tenderness\Creativity
and really promote differences, rather than sameness?

I kind of think it is too much, but it was suggested.Sounds good. Hey are you a member of KCBS?

rbinms33
10-22-2008, 02:55 PM
What does everyone think about a creativity score? sort of Appearance\Taste\Tenderness\Creativity
and really promote differences, rather than sameness?

I kind of think it is too much, but it was suggested.

Interesting thought but creativity would be limited from the beginning due to types of garnish allowed, no pooling of sauce, no sculpting of meat and no chunks within sauce bigger than 1/8" cubed.

Arlin_MacRae
10-22-2008, 03:00 PM
Wouldn't a creativity criterion make it even more subjective? That seems like a wide-open area.

Unforgiven
10-22-2008, 10:16 PM
Wouldn't a creativity criterion make it even more subjective? That seems like a wide-open area.

that was my thought, it does lend itself to even more subjectivity, but with the right matrix....

CTSmokehouse
10-22-2008, 10:37 PM
I don't want all the same judges. If you think competition cooks are all cooking the same now, with little creativity, wait until we have judges that are trained on what 'good' bbq is and what 'bad' bbq is.

There are cooks that win consistently regardless if the tables are full of master judges or newbies. They can compel pretty much anyone to say 'damn thats good'. Being able to do that with a wide variety of judge types (new system, old system, newbie, master, KC, nebs, FBA etc) is a lot harder than cooking to a normalized system taught to professional judges.

This is really what BBQ is about... appealing to people from all walks of life... Trying to make competition BBQ into a lab experiment would be a great detriment to the wild growth it has seen recently.

Sure, the system could use some tweaks. But as a cook who has been doing this for 10 years, in my opinion, the KCBS system is definitely not broken.

Amen...

What he said...

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

Unforgiven
10-27-2008, 07:58 AM
The only way to better ensure consistency would be to make a standard for each and every possible attribute for a turn-in. But then you'd still have interpretation differences from judge to judge. And an even bigger question, who decides "what is standard" for each attribute?


That is the exact reason to have a detailed scoring matrix. While you can never totally remove taste buds from the system, a matrix that asks the judge to consider specific points, would make the entire scoring system system be taken seriously.

As for who decides? We should all be deciding though the open, transparent development of new rules and a scoring matrix. These things should be voted on by the entire membership, not decided by a committee.

There will always be subjective choices the judges have to make. A well defined matrix only helps them make these choices in a fair and balances manner. It encourages the judges to think outside of their personal tastes and consider the items they are judging independently.

The only reason I even commented on this thread in the first place, was a desire to see the KCBS taken seriously as a true cooking competition. With the current state of judging, it can't be.

Even the "poll" someone created, as slanted as the poll questions may have been, demonstrates that most people the visit this forum, do not think the system as it exists today, works as well as it could.

stlgreg
10-27-2008, 02:46 PM
Since you arent answering Sledneck, maybe you will answer me....Unforgiven, are you a member of KCBS?

Bentley
10-27-2008, 03:09 PM
Since you arent answering Sledneck, maybe you will answer me....Unforgiven, are you a member of KCBS?


Does it matter if he is or not?

I am not a member of KCBS but I compete in KCBS events. Do I have a right as such to ask question or point out flaws I may percive? Does lack of membership preclued someone from asking questions or submitting reccomendations?

Scottie
10-27-2008, 03:12 PM
Yeah, I don't think you can complaint about a sanctioning body... When you aren't a member. If you want a voice... Pay the fee.

Bbq Bubba
10-27-2008, 03:48 PM
Does it matter if he is or not?

I am not a member of KCBS but I compete in KCBS events. Do I have a right as such to ask question or point out flaws I may percive? Does lack of membership preclued someone from asking questions or submitting reccomendations?


Ummmm...........yes.

Yeah, I don't think you can complaint about a sanctioning body... When you aren't a member. If you want a voice... Pay the fee.

bbqczar
10-27-2008, 04:10 PM
Yeah, I don't think you can complaint about a sanctioning body... When you aren't a member. If you want a voice... Pay the fee.


I agree,if you are not a member then you can't change anything and you shouldn't gripe about what the organization does.I guess it is like not voting, and then complaining about the outcome of an election.Pay the small fee and then "go to work " with the board !

Sledneck
10-27-2008, 04:16 PM
Thats why I keep asking and he has been avoiding

BBQ Grail
10-27-2008, 04:17 PM
I agree,if you are not a member then you can't change anything and you shouldn't gripe about what the organization does.I guess it is like not voting, and then complaining about the outcome of an election.Pay the small fee and then "go to work " with the board !

First, let me say that I agree you should be a member of an organization if you want to complain. However, the analogy with voting doesn't work. We have a constitutional right to complain about our government (at least until next week) but we have no such right when applied to a non-profit organization you have to join.

Unforgiven
10-27-2008, 05:01 PM
There is a difference between not answering someone and avoiding a question. I do not have to answer you, simply because you ask me something.

This is not about me, is it not about my team, that's why I did not answer you. That and I think it is funny as **** that you would spend so much energy asking.

Think about what I have said and will continue to say, or don't, that is up to you. It doesn't hurt my feelings, it has no effect on me at all.

Offer something useful, rather than try to obfuscate things by spending time making demands of my personal information. When people whom I consider reasonable have asked me, I have given them my phone number, and also phoned others, to talk about this and other things on this forum.

In my life, I have learned to listen to everyone, that there is something to be gained from anyone's life experience. I do not spend hours trying to find ways to belittle or degrade someone's opinion. Besides, there have been a lot of very useful ideas besides mine in this thread.

So I challenge all of you to actually add something thoughtful and helpful to this thread. Most of you already have.

You can waste your time, or use your time wisely. It is entirely up to you.

Sledneck
10-27-2008, 05:04 PM
There is a difference between not answering someone and avoiding a question. I do not have to answer you, simply because you ask me something.

This is not about me, is it not about my team, that's why I did not answer you. That and I think it is funny as **** that you would spend so much energy asking.

Think about what I have said and will continue to say, or don't, that is up to you. It doesn't hurt my feelings, it has no effect on me at all.

Offer something useful, rather than try to obfuscate things by spending time making demands of my personal information. When people whom I consider reasonable have asked me, I have given them my phone number, and also phoned others, to talk about this and other things on this forum.

In my life, I have learned to listen to everyone, that there is something to be gained from anyone's life experience. I do not spend hours trying to find ways to belittle or degrade someone's opinion. Besides, there have been a lot of very useful ideas besides mine in this thread.

So I challenge all of you to actually add something thoughtful and helpful to this thread. Most of you already have.

You can waste your time, or use your time wisely. It is entirely up to you.You are a tool

BBQ Grail
10-27-2008, 05:05 PM
I have found the "ignore" feature of this forum to be a fantastic way to avoid wasting time.

Unforgiven
10-27-2008, 05:06 PM
You are a tool

Well, at least tools are useful :)

BBQ Grail
10-27-2008, 05:08 PM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tool

MilitantSquatter
10-27-2008, 05:10 PM
Guys - Although this thread seems to be going nowhere..please let's try to keep this on topic (whatever the topic actually is at this point)..

On a personal note, IMO it would probably benefit everyone if this thread just died a slow death since nothing worthwhile will materialize from it.

Thanks !

Unforgiven
10-27-2008, 05:11 PM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tool



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tool

You probably won't like this definition though, it is the real one, and is not degrading.

BBQ Grail
10-27-2008, 05:16 PM
Guys - Although this thread seems to be going nowhere..please let's try to keep this on topic (whatever the topic actually is at this point)..

On a personal note, IMO it would probably benefit everyone if this thread just died a slow death since nothing worthwhile will materialize from it.

Thanks !

Vinny,

You are correct! I'm sorry. I'll stay away from this thread.

Unforgiven
10-27-2008, 05:17 PM
Guys - Although this thread seems to be going nowhere..please let's try to keep this on topic (whatever the topic actually is at this point)..

On a personal note, IMO it would probably benefit everyone if this thread just died a slow death since nothing worthwhile will materialize from it.

Thanks !

It is pathetic when a vocal few can hijack what is actually a useful thread and make it useless. It is funny who calls names and otherwise behaves like children and who doesn't.

Are you going to push me down and call me a doody next? :mrgreen:

Sledneck
10-27-2008, 05:17 PM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tool

You probably won't like this definition though, it is the real one, and is not degrading.
Are you a member of KCBS?

BBQ Grail
10-27-2008, 05:24 PM
Sometimes you need to take a breath... and just move on. You'll give yourself a heart attack if you let yourself get too worked up. I'm there with you that sometimes its frustrating as to how you think the scores should be vs what comes out on those sheets (I didn't exactly think the ribs I turned in were going to end up where they did)... and I understand you spent a lot of $$ and all the other issues... I get it, I'm there with you... but...

sometimes you need to realize its just farking bbq... and there is always next weekend.

Transformer! You are so correct. Your insight is great advice, and in hindsight extremely prophetic.

Unforgiven
10-27-2008, 05:53 PM
Transformer! You are so correct. Your insight is great advice, and in hindsight extremely prophetic.

Then you should take that advice. There are many of us, who take this all very seriously, it is not "just bbq". It is a competition that many of us wish to become skilled at, and we want the scoring system to be fair and equal.

Those of us who do not call names and actually add useful things to the thread.

I would love to hear your opinion, just one thing that would make judging better for everyone.

BBQ Grail
10-27-2008, 06:04 PM
Then you should take that advice. There are many of us, who take this all very seriously, it is not "just bbq". It is a competition that many of us wish to become skilled at, and we want the scoring system to be fair and equal.

Those of us who do not call names and actually add useful things to the thread.

I would love to hear your opinion, just one thing that would make judging better for everyone.

The scoring system is fair and equal. Just because someone doesn't like the results doesn't make it unfair or unequal.

I personally would do away with garnishes. They serve no purpose other than to confuse the issue and make "appearance" scores lack any credibility.

The thing is that no matter what scoring system you come up with the majority of people are going to be unhappy with it, because the majority of people will lose.

Sure winning is nice and all, but the friendship and fun that people experience at the comps is really where the focus should be.

Take gymnastics as an example. After the previous Olympics the entire scoring process went through several year study and revamping. They spent millions of hours and dollars to come up with a more "fair" system. And when this past Olympics started what was the first thing people complained about. The scoring system.

The same thing happened several Olympics ago with ice skating. New scoring, they wanted to make it less subjective. What happened? Everyone complained about how hard it was to understand.

The same thing is going changing the KCBS scoring system. You are going to complicate is so much that no one is going to be able to understand what's going on. Instead of making it easier for new judges to score properly any scoring system changes will just make it harder.

What competitors need to face is the fact that NO scoring system will make up for the soreness of losing. My recommendation is you show up, cook your meats, hang with some friends, have a potluck and just forget about if you walk or not.

If you come up with the perfect scoring system it's only going to take the fun out of it. If you have the perfect scoring system and you don't win you'll have nothing to blame but yourselves. And we know from several threads cooks don't blame themselves very often.

As a KCBS member I think they should just keep everything as it is and remember that it's just bbq.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
10-27-2008, 06:09 PM
Well, at least tools are useful :)

well are you a tool?

Dustaway
10-27-2008, 06:16 PM
I agree with IQUE judging is subjective and trying to standardize it will kill it.

I think people get way to caught up in the scoring sheets and read way too much into them some people are just going to score low no matter what and some high just facts.

I compete against teams that consistently win in KCBS & IBCA to totally different types of judging what are they doing different than me? they knpw how to cook good BBQ consistently it has taken more than a couple of years more like six or eight years for them to get that way and one team in particular cook at least 48 weeks a year and have been known to hit two events the same weekend.

Simply their is no magic pill,:cool: I do think the the class's the some teams have greatly help people learn faster.

As long as you have humans judging it will be subjective sorry :mad:

and umforgiven please don't turn into a troll:shock:

HoDeDo
10-27-2008, 06:31 PM
Larry -
Great points. And this last weekend, I again saw how accurate the judging system is... Four Legs Up BBQ has been a stellar performer all year... they win Grand Champ 700 miles from their normal haunt for contests in KS/MO/NE.... Bubba and Jeff... who have produced the best brisket I've ever eaten.... took first in brisket.

Proof again that the best Que still makes it to the top. Congrats to all the Jack winners this weekend. Oh, and obviously my scores were due to poor judging :) Lack of vision, and subjectivity. Oh and maybe the bad juju of drinking some darn fine 400th anniversary Black Bush courtesy of Muzzlebrake, while cooking deep in the heart of TN Bourbon whiskey country. As you noted, it couldnt be my cooking <laughing hysterically> that was actually an issue.

Still think it is interesting how fairness keeps coming up, as we all have the same chances of getting all the judges, and we get multiple tables... to keep it as even as possible. As far as accuracy goes...it should be obvious by the fact that the cooks who are known to produce excellent product, do well where ever they go that the judging is fairly accurate. IT appears precision is the measure where the issues are... And I dont think you can get precision when so many taste buds are involved.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-27-2008, 06:57 PM
WOW - I cannot believe this thread is still going strong. I just come to learn that we have good days and bad days, some have more bad days than others. I use to believe it was the judges fault, but after many more comps have come to realize that chit maybe my skin was way to farking tough thats why I got 22nd and my neighbors got 3rd with his bit through. Think about it like this for everyone who knows restaurants. French Laundry, California. Year after year they put out great food, maybe the best in the country and make 99% of their customers and critics happy. They are not getting lucky, you are getting the best of what you ordered everytime they put in on the plate in front of you. It's called consistancy. It works both in food and in business, do the best you can all the time and it will pay off for you more than it won't if you put out a good product. Remember these judges are essentially diners, they are ordering chicken, ribs, pork, and brisket. Give to them like they are your customers and hope to god you blow them away! Good Night!

Bentley
10-27-2008, 07:57 PM
Yeah, I don't think you can complaint about a sanctioning body... When you aren't a member. If you want a voice... Pay the fee.

If I compete in a KCBS sanctioned event, part of my entry fee is going to KCBS, isen't it.

Stop competing in KCBS events, now that migh be a good idea.

I agree,if you are not a member then you can't change anything and you shouldn't gripe about what the organization does.I guess it is like not voting, and then complaining about the outcome of an election.Pay the small fee and then "go to work " with the board !

I was a member, I still could not change anything, I could not even get the Society to acknowledge my submission. Not a real attentive Society, thats why I am not a member any more.

QDoc
10-27-2008, 09:06 PM
I've lived in Arkansas,Memphis,Georgia, and Texas. BBQ in these states when I lived there was regional and different. I am assuming the contest to which you refer was a Kansas City Barbeque Society contest. The key words are " Kansas City". I am sure your barbecue is exceptional but obviously it is not what the judges expected or wanted. "Pros" take that into consideration but still strike out at times. No matter how good an entry is, if it does not conform to the generally accepted " norm" of
" Kansas City" BBQ it is likely not to score well. You're never going to have professional Judges. Just people like you and me that like Bar-b-cue. People who give up their time to judge. In my opinion they judge fairly. Unfortunately you may encounter a judge "who knows bbq" but doesn't like yours. That is the reality of the game. Check around, take classes from winners. You'll do better. Save the exotic things for family and friends. They will tell you__to your face__ that it's wonderful.

Unforgiven
10-27-2008, 09:18 PM
Just because someone doesn't like the results doesn't make it unfair or unequal.

Not liking the results was never at issue. The issue is the scoring system fair or is it a dice roll, meaning it all depends if you get a “good table”, or 6 judges who take it seriously and follow the rules



I personally would do away with garnishes. They serve no purpose other than to confuse the issue and make "appearance" scores lack any credibility.


You are absolutely right. If garnish is not to be judged, why is it in the box? Appearance scores do lack any credibility, and that is the kind of thing that makes our scores broken and meaningless. For the 150- 300 dollars or more we all spend to enter these competitions, we deserve better.


The thing is that no matter what scoring system you come up with the majority of people are going to be unhappy with it, because the majority of people will lose.


I can only speak for myself, I don’t mind losing. I expect to rank in the bottom or middle. For me, going from 23rd to 19th place is a huge deal.

All I ask is that the judges follow the rules. Most do, but some don’t, and to suggest that can’t be fixed defies reality.


The same thing happened several Olympics ago with ice skating. New scoring, they wanted to make it less subjective. What happened? Everyone complained about how hard it was to understand.

The same thing is going changing the KCBS scoring system. You are going to complicate is so much that no one is going to be able to understand what's going on. Instead of making it easier for new judges to score properly any scoring system changes will just make it harder.


I just don’t think asking judges to follow the rules and be consistent is to much to ask. Using your own example of ice skating. It may be hard to understand at first, but it worked, and the competitors we far happier with it than previous.

Yes you can google for articles that state differently, but by and large, the competitors felt the system was less subjective and better. Here, in this forum, you have about 75% of all people who took the poll, unhappy with the system as it is.

As for making it easy? Maybe I am in the minority, but what I do to compete is not easy, why should I want to coddle judges so they can have it easy? I want them to take this seriously, commensurate with the amount of time and money we all spend on this.

What we need is less judges, with higher skill sets. I personally think, they should be compensated to some degree. If this was “just bbq”, than it should be free to enter. It isn’t, it’s expensive, as you all know.



What competitors need to face is the fact that NO scoring system will make up for the soreness of losing. My recommendation is you show up, cook your meats, hang with some friends, have a potluck and just forget about if you walk or not.

If you come up with the perfect scoring system it's only going to take the fun out of it. If you have the perfect scoring system and you don't win you'll have nothing to blame but yourselves. And we know from several threads cooks don't blame themselves very often.


How a fair scoring system would take the fun out of anything is beyond me. That doesn’t even make any sense. You focus on losing, when I doubt that is the issue for most competitors.

I think people just want it to be fair. As for cooks blaming themselves, I have done it several times in this thread, I also have seem many others blame themselves for terrible food.

None of that has anything to do with a rules system that is not much more than a coin toss that parades itself as fair and honest judging. Yes MOST do a good job, some even do a great job.

It is the rest that have created a system that is broken and needs serious work to elevate it to the level it should be at. There is nothing wrong with wanting a judging system to be on par with the skill and dedication of the competitors.

motoeric
10-27-2008, 09:45 PM
If I compete in a KCBS sanctioned event, part of my entry fee is going to KCBS, isen't it.


Not necessarily, no. Some events put the money taken in for entrance fees and puts that money back out as prize money.

Eric

ique
10-27-2008, 09:52 PM
Larry -
Oh and maybe the bad juju of drinking some darn fine 400th anniversary Black Bush courtesy of Muzzlebrake,

Damn. I had box #7 and thought I had luck going my way, that sip of Black Bush screwed it all up. Muzzlebrake is to blame, plus he is a Yankees fan.

motoeric
10-27-2008, 09:54 PM
What we need is less judges, with higher skill sets. I personally think, they should be compensated to some degree. If this was “just bbq”, than it should be free to enter. It isn’t, it’s expensive, as you all know.


????? What?

What is needed is more judges with higher skill sets. Here in the north east we have a problem getting enough judges, let alone CBJ's and then we run into a 30 - 35% attrition rate.

In an ideal world we would have qualified, eager judges clamoring to get into your event. If organizers had the luxury of being highly selective in who we accept it would be wonderous and beautiful world.

Eric

Unforgiven
10-27-2008, 10:03 PM
????? What?

What is needed is more judges with higher skill sets. Here in the north east we have a problem getting enough judges, let alone CBJ's and then we run into a 30 - 35% attrition rate.

In an ideal world we would have qualified, eager judges clamoring to get into your event. If organizers had the luxury of being highly selective in who we accept it would be wonderous and beautiful world.
Eric

You have a point, what I meant by that was I would prefer to have 3 skilled, fair judges than 6 where it is a crap shoot. Many competitions use a small number of judges, but you are correct, 6 skilled judges would be awesome.

If the judges were at least compensated to a degree for travel and a small stipend for judging, you would not get the attrition rate that you do.

Judges in most, if not all competitions where money changes hands, are compensated.

Bentley
10-27-2008, 10:47 PM
Not necessarily, no. Some events put the money taken in for entrance fees and puts that money back out as prize money.

Eric

If a promoter uses KCBS for sanctioning he is paying for it, and I am paying him. What you are saying is just semantics.

BBQ Grail
10-27-2008, 10:53 PM
If a promoter uses KCBS for sanctioning he is paying for it, and I am paying him. What you are saying is just semantics.

No, it's not just semantics. Either you are a member or you are not. Using your rational, if I go online and buy a KCBS hat I have just as much right to voice my opinion at a dues paying member.

Your entry fee covers the cost of that event. It does nothing towards funding the other activities of the organization.

HoDeDo
10-28-2008, 12:06 AM
You have a point, what I meant by that was I would prefer to have 3 skilled, fair judges than 6 where it is a crap shoot. Many competitions use a small number of judges, but you are correct, 6 skilled judges would be awesome.

If the judges were at least compensated to a degree for travel and a small stipend for judging, you would not get the attrition rate that you do.

Judges in most, if not all competitions where money changes hands, are compensated.

I think this is one of the big issues -- someone would have to pay for this compensation... and it will end up being the cooks. Lets say we have 50 judges at $25 stipend + travel... @ say, $25. That is an additional $2500 in overhead that would likely have to get absorbed in the entry fees. For a larger event - like the GAB where you can have 200 judges, and 35 table captains... you would be looking at a potential expense of $11750. A $50 bump in entry fee cost at a bare minimum.

In general I think most folks do not feel the system is broken enough to pay for a different setup. Because training, and even a matrix, would still leave the subjectivity in place, and get similar results.

Do you have some ideas around how such a system could work without impacting the costs to the cookers. (since most cookers are already trying to find ways to reduce costs, vs. increase them)

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 05:48 AM
No, it's not just semantics. Either you are a member or you are not. Using your rational, if I go online and buy a KCBS hat I have just as much right to voice my opinion at a dues paying member.

Your entry fee covers the cost of that event. It does nothing towards funding the other activities of the organization.

Everyone has a right to voice their opinion. The idea that you have to pay to have a voice is just silly.

True you don't have to listen to it, but using if, or how mush someone has paid as a litmus test makes no sense.

It is the opinion that matters, not the speaker or how much they did or didn't pay.

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 05:59 AM
I think this is one of the big issues -- someone would have to pay for this compensation... and it will end up being the cooks. Lets say we have 50 judges at $25 stipend + travel... @ say, $25. That is an additional $2500 in overhead that would likely have to get absorbed in the entry fees. For a larger event - like the GAB where you can have 200 judges, and 35 table captains... you would be looking at a potential expense of $11750. A $50 bump in entry fee cost at a bare minimum.

In general I think most folks do not feel the system is broken enough to pay for a different setup. Because training, and even a matrix, would still leave the subjectivity in place, and get similar results.

Do you have some ideas around how such a system could work without impacting the costs to the cookers. (since most cookers are already trying to find ways to reduce costs, vs. increase them)

That's the tough part, figuring out how to fix it without it costing everyone a lot. I know I would be willing to pay an extra 10-20 dollars an event for fair scoring.

Like I said, I think less judges, maybe a table of 6 for each category and they judge all entries. As someone said earlier, they do it in other food competitions. True that would not work for an event like the jack, but that is the exception to the rule.

What about blue ribbon panels? Guest judges? 3 judges and one master judge? Discussion during judging? There are a lot of possibilities.

The point is though, collect many different ideas and go through them, find the ones that make it work. develop a matrix (which would not add to the costs), open up the transparency of judging. Give teams the judges notes to help them do better next time.

Here is a question, why is the judging blind? I can't think of any other "for money" competition where the judges vote in secret and you don't know who is judging you. Does it really matter if a judge knows it is one teams entry over another? Just a question.

Scottie
10-28-2008, 06:58 AM
I think that you should cook in more than one contest, before you want to start torpedoing our circuit. Get a better taste for it and then make reservations.

Personally, I'd rather go to the IBCA judging system before we pay stipends for judges.

Can you explain, if this system is so flawed (your standards), that the same teams are winning? As I know that these teams do not use the same flavor profiles that you accuse everyone of submitting.

Look, it's the Kansas City Barbeque Society. You aren't going to get Memphis style or Texas style cooking. If you want to win, try cooking KC style. It's a great way to look at it and to succeed.

All that is happening now, is a dog chasing it's tail argument.

Scottie

U2CANQUE
10-28-2008, 07:20 AM
I would be willing to pay an extra 10-20 dollars an event for fair scoring.

And, how in the world would fair be defined? System works now, no need to reinvent the wheel.....
Agree with most here, consistency is the key, and that is why you see a lot of the same teams over and over....with different judges, different parts of the country....ala, Lotta Bull....Mike does not win every contest, but, I am sure that if you looked at his score sheets, he will be pretty much consistent over a period of time. Take a breath, and realize that at the end of the day, there is some luck....as in any scoring system, a lot of skill (getting to the point of consistency) and that sweet sells.....a lot more than blazing hot spiced will......

afterall, it is just bbq

Bbq Bubba
10-28-2008, 07:23 AM
http://www.theqjoint.com/forum/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 07:30 AM
I think that you should cook in more than one contest, before you want to start torpedoing our circuit. Get a better taste for it and then make reservations.


I have cooked in more than one contest. Wanting things to be better, more fair, more consistent, is not “torpedoing”. Personalizing this does not really accomplish anything. This is about rule changes. Many organizations have rule changes. It is not an insult to the competitors or judges.


Can you explain, if this system is so flawed (your standards), that the same teams are winning? As I know that these teams do not use the same flavor profiles that you accuse everyone of submitting.


“Accusing” is not really accurate. Nothing says that the same teams would be winning; I have seen scores that were off by very narrow margins. The results could be different if judges were as consistent as you think the teams should be.

I do, personally think, there is sameness in what is turned in and wins consistently. Nothing says that the teams that win now would not still be the teams that win if rule changes were made.

I guess I would question why anyone would be so worried about rule changes that make it fair and consistent for everyone, if as has been stated over and over here “cream floats to the top”

All it would do is bring real integrity to the scores, which, and it is not just me who has said it, is lacking to a degree.



Look, it's the Kansas City Barbeque Society. You aren't going to get Memphis style or Texas style cooking. If you want to win, try cooking KC style. It's a great way to look at it and to succeed.


The rules for judges very clearly state that the food is to be judged for what it is, not for what it isn’t. No where does it state you must cook “Kansas City” barbeque. This is a fallacy that has no basis in fact.


All that is happening now, is a dog chasing it's tail argument.


I don’t think that healthy discourse is pointless. It can only improve things in the end.

U2CANQUE
10-28-2008, 07:32 AM
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg

:biggrin:

U2CANQUE
10-28-2008, 07:32 AM
damn, didnt work, but, yeah, dead horse, is sooooooooooooooooooo beaten

BBQ Grail
10-28-2008, 07:34 AM
:biggrin:

damn, didnt work, but, yeah, dead horse, is sooooooooooooooooooo beaten

How about this one!

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15644&d=1211166952

CivilWarBBQ
10-28-2008, 07:39 AM
(bolts "Please Don't Feed the Trolls" sign to this thread)

U2CANQUE
10-28-2008, 08:02 AM
Thanks Larry.........much much, and I mean, MUCH better........maybe if they just go ahead and lock the thread now....we can all get back to prepping meat, shooting the SH**, and talking about something important like, I dunno, alcohol poisoning, a bi-product of competitions, or, or poor pouring control

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 08:16 AM
Thanks Larry.........much much, and I mean, MUCH better........maybe if they just go ahead and lock the thread now....we can all get back to prepping meat, shooting the SH**, and talking about something important like, I dunno, alcohol poisoning, a bi-product of competitions, or, or poor pouring control

You do have the option of not reading it. Clearly contributing somethng useful is not something you are interested in.

I think it is kind of cute, in the same way I look at my kids when they say something silly, that you try to negate any kind of positive responses with silly pictures, trite messages and name calling.

But hey, it's your time, spend it anyway you wish.

tonto1117
10-28-2008, 08:22 AM
Unforgiven,
I will say that you are Unrelenting!!

Some "Food for Thought" on letting it go.... ("Pun intended")



Admitting the obvious truth - that you are not responsible to affect a change or correct a problem which is beyond your competency, power, authority or responsibility.

Releasing over-responsibility - giving permission to yourself to be free from an overresponsible sense of obligation, duty, or requirement to make everything "perfect'' in your life and the life of others.

Get rational about what you can and cannot do - becoming realistic about what is and is not your obligation or duty to correct, change, or control.


Problem solving conclusion - culmination of extensive problem solving, brainstorming, and testing alternatives with the final conclusion that you can do nothing to change the circumstances of the issue out of your reach and control and that it would be saner and more realistic to free your energy.


And last but certainley not least.......


Freedom from Idealism - often due to your idealism and irrational belief system about how perfect things should be that you get trapped into unhealthy efforts to solve things which don't need to be solved, and by letting go you gain the ability to free up and focus on yourself, the one thing you can control and change.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-28-2008, 08:45 AM
Unforgiven - do you leave the computer at all????

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 08:45 AM
That's cute. Where did you copy it from?

We all have the ability to effect change. This, once again, is not about me. over 75% of the posters to this forum, that have responded to the poll, think some change is needed.

The only question is what change? Everyone could have a voice in that. If you would rather spend your time not adding to a healthy, useful dialogue, that is up to you.

There are others who wish to see things be better.

But maybe that is the "Old Guard" mentality, harass, obfuscate and muddy the waters with trite, meaningless, even hateful expression, so others that DO care, can't be heard.

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 08:56 AM
Unforgiven - do you leave the computer at all????

Sadly, no. My position requires me to be connected at all times.
But at least I get to read your silly attacks, and the useful posts too.

Jorge
10-28-2008, 09:06 AM
Everybody needs to read THIS post and make sure they understand it.

You will be civil, and extend common courtesy to each other. That means no personal attacks, or name calling, no belittling comments. If you act like adults you will be treated accordingly.

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 10:02 AM
Thank you Jorge. I will certainly do my part. It would be nice to see the return of the people with ideas.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-28-2008, 10:08 AM
Sadly, no. My position requires me to be connected at all times.
But at least I get to read your silly attacks, and the useful posts too.

Not exaclty sure where the silly attacks were. But now that you feel that way I am sure you will let me know.

Dustaway
10-28-2008, 10:09 AM
What makes for a professional judge? is it the size of your cooler you bring for the leftovers? or the number of times you judge in a year?

Jacked UP BBQ
10-28-2008, 10:20 AM
A professional is a person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person) in a profession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession) that requires certain types of skilled work requiring formal training (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training) or education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education) - I guess that would make CBJ professionals

Bentley
10-28-2008, 10:24 AM
Your entry fee covers the cost of that event. It does nothing towards funding the other activities of the organization.

That's right, it coveres the cost of the event. What happens in that event, judging of meats. What scoring system is used in a KCBS scantioned event, KCBS.

Thanks for highliting my point!

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 10:47 AM
Not exaclty sure where the silly attacks were. But now that you feel that way I am sure you will let me know.


I should have said THE silly attacks, as opossed to personalizing it towards you. My sincere apologies.

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 10:53 AM
What makes for a professional judge? is it the size of your cooler you bring for the leftovers? or the number of times you judge in a year?


That is a great question, and I am not sure there is an easy definition. For me, it is more a mind set, a manner of exercising or not exercising one’s discretion and subjectivity.

I think a judge that follows all the rules carefully and thoughtfully is certainly more professional than one that does not.

Paola Greg
10-28-2008, 11:28 AM
Well, I think I have probably read all the posts here since the thread began over two months ago. And I think I am in the majority that feels the current system works pretty well, but probably could be improved somewhat, (I'm talking minor changes, over time and with very careful consideration and research of any positive or negative impact.) But I do not feel the system is broke and needs a major overhaul.

With that said, I have not read here one single suggestion for improving the system that I could endorse, or feel that I would forward to the Board and/or Rules committee for consideration. Mostly all just bickering and complaints. It seems to me this whole thread is going no where, and has accomplished nothing thus far.

I do know for a fact that the members of the Board, are always open to ideas to make improvements to any aspect of the Association, be it judging, scoring, or whatever. But this thread seems to be a lost cause, in my opinion.

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 11:36 AM
With that said, I have not read here one single suggestion for improving the system that I could endorse, or feel that I would forward to the Board and/or Rules committee for consideration.


So do you have any suggestions? I think there have been several really good ideas so far, and there will be more.

As long as thoughful people keep making suggestions, no thread can be a lost cause.

carlharper
10-28-2008, 12:17 PM
I'll have to disagree. This thread has become a lost cause. Unforgiven, you have relentlessly complained about how the judging and scoring system is broken and how the KCBS can't be taken seriously because of the rampant unfairness and inequality that you beleive exists.

Your stated goals seem to be to promote discussion and solicit positive suggestions to "fix what's broke". That's great, however both are nothing but talk. I'd like to see you channel you passion and energy into a leadership role, rather than just as an instigator. You haven't set forth any specific suggestions to solve the problems that you perceive exist.

I think you should become a CBJ. I'll save you a seat right next to me at any competition. I'd like to see how you would judge your peers.

Let's have a lot less talk and a lot more action on your part.

Carl Harper
CBJ #22115

Paola Greg
10-28-2008, 12:28 PM
So do you have any suggestions?

Nope, sorry I don't. But if I did, I would send it to the chairman of the Rules committee, and copy the rest of the Board with it. Matter of fact I did just that a couple or three years ago, when I suggested to the Board I felt the judging procedures should be included in the cooks handbook/rules. Dang if they didn't agree that was a good idea, and voted for the change and started doing it...
So don't think that a good idea of yours, or any other association member will not be considered once sent to them. Improvements have been made and will continue I'm sure.

Scottie
10-28-2008, 12:46 PM
Clap clap clap. So you don't think they would take suggestions from a disgruntled cook that wasn't happy that he didn't get a soccer trophy and isn't a member of this association that he is complaining about?

Again... It's the dog chasing his tail...

ps Unforgiven, I am a local cook that you have probably cooked against. If you want to PM me and we can discuss, I am open to that. Otherwise, this thread has been going no where for about 20 something pages of posts...

Sledneck
10-28-2008, 01:14 PM
Unforgiven, are you a member of KCBS? :lol:

Bentley
10-28-2008, 01:19 PM
Dang if they didn't agree that was a good idea, and voted for the change and started doing it...



I am glad they responded to you.

motoeric
10-28-2008, 01:59 PM
If a promoter uses KCBS for sanctioning he is paying for it, and I am paying him. What you are saying is just semantics.


No, it's not semantics. There are events where the entirety of the money that contestants pay to compete are given back to the winning teams as prize money. Not one dime of the entry fee goes the the KCBS in those events.

The organizing body either takes a loss or pays the fees involved via sponsorship money or attenddee gate fees.

Eric

Unforgiven
10-28-2008, 01:59 PM
Clap clap clap. So you don't think they would take suggestions from a disgruntled cook that wasn't happy that he didn't get a soccer trophy and isn't a member of this association that he is complaining about?

Again... It's the dog chasing his tail...

ps Unforgiven, I am a local cook that you have probably cooked against. If you want to PM me and we can discuss, I am open to that. Otherwise, this thread has been going no where for about 20 something pages of posts...

Then stop reading it :)

Bentley
10-28-2008, 03:40 PM
No, it's not semantics. There are events where the entirety of the money that contestants pay to compete are given back to the winning teams as prize money. Not one dime of the entry fee goes the the KCBS in those events.

The organizing body either takes a loss or pays the fees involved via sponsorship money or attenddee gate fees.

Eric


If you say so. In the six years I have competed in CA I don't think that has happened.

ique
10-28-2008, 03:43 PM
Then stop reading it :)

Thats good advice... but its kinda like when there is a car accident on the side of the road... its hard not to look.

Sledneck
10-28-2008, 03:48 PM
I cant see changing a thing with the scoring system. How can (5) 13th place chicken finishes be wrong? Seems like judges are real consistent no matter where I go. BTW Unforgiven ,are you a member of KCBS?

oceanpigassassins
10-28-2008, 04:55 PM
Hey sled what about those ribs that you said were bad.Couldn't have been that bad for first place

HoDeDo
10-28-2008, 06:02 PM
Thats good advice... but its kinda like when there is a car accident on the side of the road... its hard not to look.

You nailed it there Chris... :rolleyes:

tonto1117
10-28-2008, 06:28 PM
Thats good advice... but its kinda like when there is a car accident on the side of the road... its hard not to look.


You nailed it there Chris... :rolleyes:


:lol:.....Kinda like this?? Sorry sled...but this one still cracks me up..:-P:wink:

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/5526/sledkp9.gif

Sledneck
10-29-2008, 07:18 AM
:lol:.....Kinda like this?? Sorry sled...but this one still cracks me up..:-P:wink:

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/5526/sledkp9.gifI really miss my cars

Nitrofly
10-29-2008, 10:25 AM
I really miss my cars

With that can we move on Please :mrgreen:

BBQchef33
10-29-2008, 10:44 AM
No, it's not semantics. There are events where the entirety of the money that contestants pay to compete are given back to the winning teams as prize money. Not one dime of the entry fee goes the the KCBS in those events.

The organizing body either takes a loss or pays the fees involved via sponsorship money or attenddee gate fees.

Eric

If you say so. In the six years I have competed in CA I don't think that has happened.


i'll vouch for this one..

At the Battle of the Brethren contest, 100% of the entry fees were returned to the prize pool. (thats the reason for the unrounded numbers). The Sayville Chamber of commerce stroked the checks to KCBS for ALL sanctioning and rep fees and took a loss in return for increasing foot traffic to the town festival. The odd amounts on the checks are due to the predetermined percentages assigned to each placment.

Sledneck
10-29-2008, 12:03 PM
Could you repeat that please ? I missed it

lunchlady
10-29-2008, 02:51 PM
yep... there have been (and will be) a LOT of contests in New England over the years that 100% of the entry fees went back to the prize pool. Cooks notice stuff like that.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
10-29-2008, 07:16 PM
Galvinell's in Conowingo MD ( a small non- KCBS contest, about 20 teams) has had a few comps and all entry fees went into the prizes or a donation to the local 4-h club. low on the entry fee, high on fun!!