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SmokeMeTender
07-28-2008, 02:58 PM
We have noticed alot of turn-in boxes with sliced pork. Can anyone tell us how you are slicing? Are you using a seperate pork loin or butt just to slice? Pictures would be great!:-D

Everything looks so good.

Thanks

Rhapsody
07-28-2008, 03:21 PM
i have been seeing this as well and while I know it is perfectly legal to slice pork for turn in, I know it is illegal to butcher the pork before cooking it. A pork shoulder, butt or picnic is too muscularly confusing to result in a perfect slicing peice like some people turn in. You can obviously see how some people are butchering their meat before cooking it due to the rub being around the entire slice of cut meat as well as a smoke ring around the entire perimeter of these newly popular slices. Why isn't this rule enforced more? I saw some in Wildwood and brought it to the attention of some people and they 'explained' to me how the team cut the meat after they cooked it, I don't buy all of it. Can any light be shed on this?


Here is the direct rule:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork
shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

Podge
07-28-2008, 03:29 PM
i have been seeing this as well and while I know it is perfectly legal to slice pork for turn in, I know it is illegal to butcher the pork before cooking it. A pork shoulder, butt or picnic is too muscularly confusing to result in a perfect slicing peice like some people turn in. You can obviously see how some people are butchering their meat before cooking it due to the rub being around the entire slice of cut meat as well as a smoke ring around the entire perimeter of these newly popular slices. Why isn't this rule enforced more? I saw some in Wildwood and brought it to the attention of some people and they 'explained' to me how the team cut the meat after they cooked it, I don't buy all of it. Can any light be shed on this?


Here is the direct rule:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork
shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.


there is a way to trim a butt in such a manner that will alow for maximum bark for slices, but still keep the butt in one piece. Also, the butt for slicing will be too under-cooked for pulled.

ssbbqguy
07-28-2008, 03:45 PM
Podge is right, creative knife skills can confuse some. Temps. for sliced is lower than pulled. Cooking methods enter that thought when using the same piece of product. Here in the midwest they like sliced pieces in the box. Steve.

KC_Bobby
07-28-2008, 05:06 PM
It's legal, we learned the slicing technique from taking a BBQ class ... taught be a board member.

It's commonly referred to as the money muscle, it's the muscle opposite the bone end of the butt. It's fairly simple to part the butt along this fat line so about 3/4 of this entire muscle is exposed to rub and air as it smokes. As Podge mentions, the butt that is getting used for the sliced portion of the turn in is not getting cooked to 195-200 internal, closer to 180, thus sliceable. And this muscle is still very tender to the bite even at that temp.

But here's my question. After I get the money muscle to my desired temp, can I cut it away from the rest of the pork butt and put the pork butt back in to get the rest of it to pull temp? Technically, pork is cooked at 160. I've been leaving my slicer butt whole after cooking it becuase I don't know the rules and don't want to take any chances of it drying out but man it would be nice to be able to get all the butts to pull temp so when they are eaten later they have that great texture.

The Pickled Pig
07-28-2008, 05:10 PM
There are a few ways to get good slices from a pork but. One method, is to partially separate a muscle or muscle group from the roast, leaving it partially attached. Since most people like to slice at a lower internal temp than they pull from, a separate butt is generally used for this purpose.

http://www.thepickledpig.com/ppforumimages/bbqpork/4.jpg

mds2
07-28-2008, 05:11 PM
But here's my question. After I get the money muscle to my desired temp, can I cut it away from the rest of the pork butt and put the pork butt back in to get the rest of it to pull temp? .

I dont think so. Once you part it in any way you can not return one part of it to the cooker, but I could be wrong.

SmokeMeTender
07-28-2008, 05:12 PM
If there is such a way to slice the pork, can you please tell me how? Are you using one to slice and another to pull? :-D

KC_Bobby
07-28-2008, 05:14 PM
yes. 1 to slice and 1 to pull

CajunSmoker
07-28-2008, 05:22 PM
Everything you could ask has already been asked in this thread.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45459&highlight=money+muscle

Podge
07-28-2008, 05:29 PM
But here's my question. After I get the money muscle to my desired temp, can I cut it away from the rest of the pork butt and put the pork butt back in to get the rest of it to pull temp? Technically, pork is cooked at 160. I've been leaving my slicer butt whole after cooking it becuase I don't know the rules and don't want to take any chances of it drying out but man it would be nice to be able to get all the butts to pull temp so when they are eaten later they have that great texture.

There was a thread a few weeks ago going over just this topic. I interpret that being a BBQ competition, and in competition, cooked pork for pulled is in the neighborhood of anywhere from 190-205, and sliced is lower than that. If a person was to separate the butt to get the money muscle off, and throw the rest of the butt in the cooker for pulled, that butt is not cooked all the way, and therefore parted before it's cooked. I believe that in my interpretation, this method is illegal.

(160 for techical, but since we're cooking for something other than food safety, i've rulled this temp. out)

The Pickled Pig
07-28-2008, 05:48 PM
But here's my question. After I get the money muscle to my desired temp, can I cut it away from the rest of the pork butt and put the pork butt back in to get the rest of it to pull temp? Technically, pork is cooked at 160. I've been leaving my slicer butt whole after cooking it becuase I don't know the rules and don't want to take any chances of it drying out but man it would be nice to be able to get all the butts to pull temp so when they are eaten later they have that great texture.

There was a lengthy thread on this very topic a few weeks ago (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45459).

Rub
07-28-2008, 05:55 PM
I've been thinking about this too, because there's not too much sliced down my way. To the one's who have experience in the area, is it necessary to put sliced in the box to be competitive at the Royal?

KC_Bobby
07-28-2008, 05:56 PM
Why thank you, that thread took place while I was offline. I didn't see it, I'll catch up on it tonight!

Solidkick
07-28-2008, 05:57 PM
It has to be cooked whole and connected to the butt. Once you've cut the part away that you plan to slice for turn ins, that butt can not be returned to cook longer for competition use.......take it home and finish it in the oven..... :)

Solidkick
07-28-2008, 06:02 PM
I've been thinking about this too, because there's not too much sliced down my way. To the one's who have experience in the area, is it necessary to put sliced in the box to be competitive at the Royal?
Rub....to be honest, I think it's become a midwest thing.......we didn't do slices for awhile in the beginning, but when the scores started dropping, we changed.....

Since we haven't cooked at the royal yet, I'll have to let some of the others answer that question.....I do know that we're planning on dancing with the one that brought us........

pipobbq
07-28-2008, 06:03 PM
An entry can be sliced and still be tender enough to pull (and not just barely). It's how I do mine all of the time.

Jeff_in_KC
07-28-2008, 10:17 PM
Holy crap!!! Can we remove this picture and size it down?????

How's that Lady Schick??

KC_Bobby
07-28-2008, 11:03 PM
I feel like I've taken one too many shots of Patron.

Jeff_in_KC
07-29-2008, 09:54 AM
Thanks for the photo edit! WHEW!!

pipobbq
07-29-2008, 12:05 PM
Sorry guys...most of the forums I usually post on are big picture friendly.

Mo-Dave
07-29-2008, 12:40 PM
Posted by Rahpsody: You can obviously see how some people are butchering their meat before cooking it due to the rub being around the entire slice of cut meat as well as a smoke ring around the entire perimeter of these newly popular slices. Why isn't this rule enforced more? I saw some in Wildwood and brought it to the attention of some people and they 'explained' to me how the team cut the meat after they cooked it, I don't buy all of it. Can any light be shed on this?
__________________________________________________ ________
This kind of statement from a judge really bothers me. You are making an assumption that the cook did something wrong, how else could they get a smoke ring all around the meat. As others have pointed out it is entirely possible to do this without cheating. After this process being explained you still drought it was done legally. I hope your scores did not reflect your assumption they cheated, if so please refrain from making accusations for what you think to be truth but in fact are false, please judge it as it is presented not as you preceptive to be cooked I hope you are not one of those judges that think if there is a lot of sauce on the meat the cook must be hiding something and so what if he is, does it look good, taste good, is it tender enough, that is all that should matter.

Sorry for that rant on you but like I said I really hate when I see these kinds of uninformed judgments being handed down by what are supposed to be informed people that we trust to be open and fair minded.
Dave
CBJ
Team Tuff Rub

Podge
07-29-2008, 01:20 PM
Posted by Rahpsody: You can obviously see how some people are butchering their meat before cooking it due to the rub being around the entire slice of cut meat as well as a smoke ring around the entire perimeter of these newly popular slices. Why isn't this rule enforced more? I saw some in Wildwood and brought it to the attention of some people and they 'explained' to me how the team cut the meat after they cooked it, I don't buy all of it. Can any light be shed on this?
__________________________________________________ ________
This kind of statement from a judge really bothers me. You are making an assumption that the cook did something wrong, how else could they get a smoke ring all around the meat. As others have pointed out it is entirely possible to do this without cheating. After this process being explained you still drought it was done legally. I hope your scores did not reflect your assumption they cheated, if so please refrain from making accusations for what you think to be truth but in fact are false, please judge it as it is presented not as you preceptive to be cooked I hope you are not one of those judges that think if there is a lot of sauce on the meat the cook must be hiding something and so what if he is, does it look good, taste good, is it tender enough, that is all that should matter.

Sorry for that rant on you but like I said I really hate when I see these kinds of uninformed judgments being handed down by what are supposed to be informed people that we trust to be open and fair minded.
Dave
CBJ
Team Tuff Rub

(First off, I've never judged before, and never went to the CBJ class, so forgive my ignorance.) :-D

Is it the duty of the table captain to judge if an entry is legal before showing it to the judges? if so, and the TC deems the entry legal, then the judges at his table should judge it as a legal entry to begin with, and it's not their call.

Neal
07-29-2008, 02:03 PM
(First off, I've never judged before, and never went to the CBJ class, so forgive my ignorance.) :-D

Is it the duty of the table captain to judge if an entry is legal before showing it to the judges? if so, and the TC deems the entry legal, then the judges at his table should judge it as a legal entry to begin with, and it's not their call.

I have always wondered why judges will second guess the legality of an entry and even score down based on this. This is absurd to me. It is the Table Captain's job to open the box, and make the determination on a legal entry.

I did take the class (admittedly, a few years ago) and we did go over legal and illegal entries. But we only went over the stuff that would DQ an entry to cover what to look for as a TC.

Judging is pretty simple. Judge what is presented to you.

ModelMaker
07-29-2008, 02:16 PM
At "Up In Smoke" in Mason City this weekend there was a pork entry that had a money muscle sliced and presented with chunks. I don't see how that much surface area can obtain bark and smoke ring and still be attached to the whole butt the way momma pig put it there. I almost called the rep over to look at it but I personally do not have perfect knowledge of how all money muscles set in any given butt.
What as cooks would you like judges to do if we question how that particular muscle is cooked and presented?
Should we just hope all are playing fairly?
ModelMaker

Mo-Dave
07-29-2008, 02:41 PM
(First off, I've never judged before, and never went to the CBJ class, so forgive my ignorance.) :-D

Is it the duty of the table captain to judge if an entry is legal before showing it to the judges? if so, and the TC deems the entry legal, then the judges at his table should judge it as a legal entry to begin with, and it's not their call.

Podge please let me apologize, this was not meant for you. It was intended for Rhapsody,s post. I guess I was on the wrong post, again I am sorry if I implied it was you I was referring to, my bad.:redface::redface::redface::redface:
Dave

Podge
07-29-2008, 02:47 PM
Podge please let me apologize, this was not meant for you. It was intended for Rhapsody,s post. I guess I was on the wrong post, again I am sorry if I implied it was you I was referring to, my bad.:redface::redface::redface::redface:
Dave

oh no, i know that wasn't meant for me, i was just bringing up a question i came up with from reading your post i quoted.

Mo-Dave
07-29-2008, 03:20 PM
oh no, i know that wasn't meant for me, i was just bringing up a question i came up with from reading your post i quoted.

I will have to show my ignorance here, first time for everything ya know:icon_wink.
I think the TC should look at it first to conclude that it is ok but it is ultimately up to the the judges to catch anything wrong, bring it to the TC attention and he TC should summons the Rep for approval/disapproval before moving on.
Dave

KC_Bobby
07-29-2008, 04:37 PM
I think even if the table capt notices that the entry is illegal that the table score it for appearence first as if it were legal and without mention/discussion that it is (could be) illegal. And if a judge notices/thinks it is illegal, keeps his/her comments to themselves until after all appearance judging for the entry is complete.

And at that point, the entry is taken to the rep for a ruling. Then the entry is brought back over to the table for taste and tenderness scoring and the judges are instructed to judge as it was legal.

Why? Because if it were determined that a rep was wrong to DQ (most cooks take pics of entries and the rep and cook could discuss after all judging took place), then the cook could be awarded their points with as little outside influence as possible from the judges.

SmokeMeTender
07-29-2008, 04:39 PM
This is soooo confusing. :roll: Just want to make sure that I am judging correctly when I see the slices. We will be judging the AR and others.
Some have stated that there is a way to cook the meat without removing or leaving a small piece that is attached, can you guys share how you guys are doing it?

I guess I have a question as to why KCBS has not addressed this.

thanks

KC_Bobby
07-29-2008, 04:42 PM
LOL, we did.

Basically, if the garnish is OK pork is pretty hard to DQ unless the box has a foreign object in it or sauce pooled. And by pooled, we don't mean drizzled - again, that's legal (and why I mentioned my thoughts on the scoring process) Drizzling is not marking in my book.

Podge
07-29-2008, 05:19 PM
This is soooo confusing. :roll: Just want to make sure that I am judging correctly when I see the slices. We will be judging the AR and others.
Some have stated that there is a way to cook the meat without removing or leaving a small piece that is attached, can you guys share how you guys are doing it?

I guess I have a question as to why KCBS has not addressed this.

thanks

That would be very hard for me to explain on here, but when you think about it, you are unable to see completely around the whole slice unless it's laid down on it's side. So, a judge (or TC for that matter) may not be able to tell if there's bark 360 all around the slice until it's pulled out of the box. I'm lucky to have 3/4 of that muscle barked up, but the way i present it, you can't see the un-barked side, which was attached to the butt to begin with. if you were to cut off just the bark off of my slices, it would make a "U" shape, not an "O" shape.

Jeff_in_KC
07-29-2008, 07:02 PM
This is soooo confusing. :roll: Just want to make sure that I am judging correctly when I see the slices. We will be judging the AR and others.
Some have stated that there is a way to cook the meat without removing or leaving a small piece that is attached, can you guys share how you guys are doing it?

I guess I have a question as to why KCBS has not addressed this.

thanks

rvn, just remember at the Royal - when you see MY box, it's 999. Got it? :lol: Seriously though, I was concerned at Warrensburg a couple of weeks ago that we would get judge farked when I separated the money muscle and found that it was close to 90% smoke ring around it. Luckily we did not and I should not have to worry about that kind of thing but you never know.

On another note, that farkin' HUGE photo is BACK today. :mad:

Solidkick
07-29-2008, 07:22 PM
Why are you judging the smoke ring? I don't think that is a required criteria........

A-HA! Comparision judging! LOL :twisted:
Remember, judge each entry on it's own merit.....

Where the fark is Ford at when you need him?? :cool:

Jeff_in_KC
07-29-2008, 07:28 PM
Why are you judging the smoke ring? I don't think that is a required criteria........

A-HA! Comparision judging! LOL Remember, judge each entry on it's own merit.....

Gary, I mention that only to say that some judges think they're looking at a pork loin (even though the damned diameter is less than 2 inches on the money muscle most times) if the smoke ring goes all the way around the meat.

Solidkick
07-29-2008, 07:31 PM
Gary, I mention that only to say that some judges think they're looking at a pork loin (even though the damned diameter is less than 2 inches on the money muscle most times) if the smoke ring goes all the way around the meat.
Understood.....I should have quoted rvn so that the reference didn't appear to be to you........:redface:

Solidkick
07-29-2008, 07:34 PM
Note to Rod, Linda, Merl, and Carol.........

Please disregard all this money muscle talk.....I just got my pork working again this year and don't want to change........ :twisted::mrgreen::wink:

SmokeMeTender
07-29-2008, 08:55 PM
Gentlemen

First I did not ask regarding the smoke ring and I do know not to judge. I have judged 29 contests around the midwest. We see all kinds of presentations. Some small slices to very large.

I ask questions here to help me become a better judge and the more information I get from teams on their side helps me.

I guess judges get a bad wrap when we try to find out more information and ask questions when all we are trying to do is educate ourselves a little more than what was given in the class and give the best scores on what we are presented. Judges in other parts of the US does not see slices.

Sorry to get your pants in such a wad

Plowboy
07-29-2008, 09:00 PM
It has to be cooked whole and connected to the butt. Once you've cut the part away that you plan to slice for turn ins, that butt can not be returned to cook longer for competition use.......take it home and finish it in the oven..... :)

Gary,

I had this discussion with a board member (in charge of rules) and two very long time, well respected contest reps a year ago. The board member said that this was definitely illegal. The contest reps, who teach CBJ courses, said that it isn't a problem to cut off a hunk of your butt once it reaches temp, and then continue cooking the rest.

I've never had to do this. I cook two butts exactly the same way. I pull and slice both of them. Cook them both in whole to the same temps, not one for pulling and one for slicing. Never butterfly them or lay some muscle out like it was a tenderlion. Call me old school.

If you are coming to the Royal. You don't need to slice. :rolleyes:

The Pickled Pig
07-29-2008, 10:32 PM
Gentlemen

First I did not ask regarding the smoke ring and I do know not to judge. I have judged 29 contests around the midwest. We see all kinds of presentations. Some small slices to very large.

I ask questions here to help me become a better judge and the more information I get from teams on their side helps me.

I guess judges get a bad wrap when we try to find out more information and ask questions when all we are trying to do is educate ourselves a little more than what was given in the class and give the best scores on what we are presented. Judges in other parts of the US does not see slices.

Sorry to get your pants in such a wad


I don't think anyone is attacking you RVN. To me, your question is valid and welcome. I appreciate judges that do research and learn their craft. There's been a common thread of controversy here and at other forums regarding judging bias very recently. A little sentiment of that other thread may be lingering.


Gary,
I had this discussion with a board member (in charge of rules) and two very long time, well respected contest reps a year ago. The board member said that this was definitely illegal. The contest reps, who teach CBJ courses, said that it isn't a problem to cut off a hunk of your butt once it reaches temp, and then continue cooking the rest.


I hate to beat this horse that just won't die Todd but can you clarify the statement above for me? What exactly is illegal? Your statement seems to contradict itself. Were you told that cooking the butt to a higher temp after removing the money muscle is okay or were you told that is against the rules?

Plowboy
07-29-2008, 10:35 PM
I hate to beat this horse that just won't die Todd but can you clarify the statement above for me? What exactly is illegal? Your statement seems to contradict itself. Were you told that cooking the butt to a higher temp after removing the money muscle is okay or were you told that is against the rules?


Both. My point is that even KCBS doesn't agree. One person told me that a cook couldn't seperate and continue cooking. Another told me that you could.

KC_Bobby
07-29-2008, 10:46 PM
So I don't necessarily need to read that other thead Paul pointed me to the other day?

The Pickled Pig
07-29-2008, 11:12 PM
Both. My point is that even KCBS doesn't agree. One person told me that a cook couldn't seperate and continue cooking. Another told me that you could.


I sure am glad that's resolved. :lol: I suppose, based on your source descriptions, that the board member in charge of rules is the ranking authority here.

tboneld
07-29-2008, 11:26 PM
Does turning in sliced pork improve your winning chances over turning in pulled pork? Assuming the quality is equal.

Plowboy
07-29-2008, 11:38 PM
I sure am glad that's resolved. :lol: I suppose, based on your source descriptions, that the board member in charge of rules is the ranking authority here.

Probably depends on who's the rep at your contest. Give it a try and let me know how it goes. :biggrin:

Does turning in sliced pork improve your winning chances over turning in pulled pork? Assuming the quality is equal.

Tough question. Depends on your table of judges I guess. We don't do true slices or true pulled. Kind of something in between.

Podge
07-30-2008, 08:08 AM
Both. My point is that even KCBS doesn't agree. One person told me that a cook couldn't seperate and continue cooking. Another told me that you could.

that's a good reason NOT to do it. Just play it safe.

ique
07-30-2008, 08:23 AM
Both. My point is that even KCBS doesn't agree. One person told me that a cook couldn't seperate and continue cooking. Another told me that you could.

What a silly rule. So many cooks do exactly that with Brisket every weekend, why the special rule for Pork?

Dale P
07-30-2008, 08:43 AM
What a silly rule. So many cooks do exactly that with Brisket every weekend, why the special rule for Pork?


I agree with the above 100 % but cooking 2 butts isnt that big of a deal i guess.

Plowboy
07-30-2008, 08:46 AM
What a silly rule. So many cooks do exactly that with Brisket every weekend, why the special rule for Pork?

The two reps, who've been a part of KCBS at least from the early 90's, told me that back in the day cooks would slice their pork butts and grill them. Could have been the money muscle or muscle groups. The rule was enacted to keep this BBQ and not grilling. Anyway, that's the story I got.

You are correct that there are no limitations on brisket sizes and people separate points and flats all of the time. Shoot, I've cooked points that are the about the size of your hand.

If it were me, I'd eliminate the pork size/parting rule all together. If that's what you think you need to do to beat me, go for it. I can and have beat these guys that butterfly their butts many times as it is. It isn't necessary, IMHO.

Before you know it, we'll be shaving our chicken thighs with pink razors. :eek:

Podge
07-30-2008, 09:30 AM
The two reps, who've been a part of KCBS at least from the early 90's, told me that back in the day cooks would slice their pork butts and grill them. Could have been the money muscle or muscle groups. The rule was enacted to keep this BBQ and not grilling. Anyway, that's the story I got.

You are correct that there are no limitations on brisket sizes and people separate points and flats all of the time. Shoot, I've cooked points that are the about the size of your hand.

If it were me, I'd eliminate the pork size/parting rule all together. If that's what you think you need to do to beat me, go for it. I can and have beat these guys that butterfly their butts many times as it is. It isn't necessary, IMHO.

Before you know it, we'll be shaving our chicken thighs with pink razors. :eek:

grilling the pork slices.. interesting !!.. never heard of that, but i'm still a newbie. doesn't stop people from grilling chicken either. oh well... i agree with everybody who says the "parting" rule is a silly rule to have when in fact we trim the beejesus out of other stuff.

Coz
07-30-2008, 08:09 PM
Before you know it, we'll be shaving our chicken thighs with pink razors. :eek:[/quote]


Dang it now I have to replace the purple one???

BigOlBoysBarBQ
02-16-2010, 07:14 PM
Ironically I was going to fire up the smoker this weekend and get some practice in on trimming and slicing of this "money muscle" though I have never done it. Very informational and almost clear as mud of an explanation...haha.

This Is How We Que It
02-17-2010, 04:52 AM
We have noticed alot of turn-in boxes with sliced pork. Can anyone tell us how you are slicing? Are you using a seperate pork loin or butt just to slice? Pictures would be great!:-D

Everything looks so good.

Thanks


Give me your rib secrets and I will tell you what you need to know!

lbmksu
04-20-2010, 04:28 PM
I am very solidly confused after reading the whole thread. It seems as if many people trim the butt to expose some of the the money muscle for a good bark... many do not.
The question is, will this lead to disqualification? Has this happened to someone?

monty3777
04-20-2010, 05:47 PM
I am very solidly confused after reading the whole thread. It seems as if many people trim the butt to expose some of the the money muscle for a good bark... many do not.
The question is, will this lead to disqualification? Has this happened to someone?


You can trim and expose the MM, but you can't separate the muscle from the butt and then return the other part to the smoker. So just make sure that you leave the exposed MM somewhat attached.

pop's smokin hot que
04-20-2010, 07:25 PM
As a KCBS CBJ I am seeing a lot of boxes with 3 offers of pork money muscle, pulled and chunks.

Rookie'48
04-20-2010, 08:28 PM
Lester, I'm seeing the same thing done with different degrees of success. When you put two, or three, seperate offerings in that box please remember that I'm going to judge it "as presented by the cook"; in other words as a whole. If the slices are over/under done then leave 'em out! The same goes for pulled, chopped, chunks or whatever is not "up to par" with your best pieces - don't put it in the box.