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Brewmaster
07-04-2008, 07:37 AM
I know when you cook pork for KCBS you need to cook a 5lb piece of meat. My question is if I start with a 6lb piece of meat and I trim part of it (2lbs) and leave it connected and 3/4 of the way through the cook I remove this part because I want to slice it. I leave the rest (4lbs) on the smoker to cook longer. Is this legal? Do I only need to start with 5lb piece or do I need to end up with a 5 lb piece?

Then that brings me to my next questions. If I need to start with 5lbs, can I remove the 2lb piece after an hour?

If you have to finish with a 5lb piece, what happens if you start with a 5.5lb butt and it loses more than 1/2lb when when it cooks?

Cheers,

Nate

Pig Headed
07-04-2008, 07:52 AM
I would say, yes it's legal. In my limited comp experience, I've never seen a rep or anyone else check someone's smoker to see what size butts,brisket or any other meat was being cooked.

Just Pulin' Pork
07-04-2008, 07:55 AM
Yes its legal. Its what you start with that counts.

Solidkick
07-04-2008, 08:00 AM
On occasion, I've known of teams that de-boned a butt, but did not do it before hand just so they could prove that it met the weight requirement.

mds2
07-04-2008, 08:22 AM
I thought that it had to be cooked whole, and not parted in anyway during the cooking process. Or am I wrong?

Ford
07-04-2008, 08:30 AM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork
shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

So define cooked? is it 145 F or the final temp? This is one that needs to go to the KCBS BOD and probably the rules committee will want to discuss it for next year.

As I read it the answer is you can not cut the meat and put back on the pit. Nor can a piece "fall off" and be removed from the pit ahead of other peices.

Brisket can be parted so it's legal to put the point back on.

scottyd
07-04-2008, 08:56 AM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole

Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork
shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

So define cooked? is it 145 F or the final temp? This is one that needs to go to the KCBS BOD and probably the rules committee will want to discuss it for next year.

As I read it the answer is you can not cut the meat and put back on the pit. Nor can a piece "fall off" and be removed from the pit ahead of other peices.

Brisket can be parted so it's legal to put the point back on.


Ford by no means is this directed in your way.

Rules are put down to be followed: with that said the cooks will always find away to spilt hairs to make the rules fit there needs. As times change rules go in front of the BOD and a slight change might be made or not. This rule has been in effect for awhile I say live with it. Play by the rules and we as cooks need to quit trying to skirt the rules and man up and play the the rules put forth by the KCBS that we all worship so dearly.

Double D's BBQ
07-04-2008, 09:32 AM
Just curious why anyone would want to cook a puney butt or a small brisket to begin with. Give me a nine pound butt and a thirteen lb or bigger brisket anyday. There is plenty of time to cook large cuts of meat at comps unless your not showing up until Saturday at 8 in the morning. Seen that in the Grand Rapids contest BTW.

I don't see where cooking smaller cuts give you an advantage. Quite the opposite I would think! I like big butts and big briskets!

The Pickled Pig
07-04-2008, 09:42 AM
As I read it the answer is you can not cut the meat and put back on the pit. Nor can a piece "fall off" and be removed from the pit ahead of other peices.



If that is the case, then pulling and slicing the pork after being cooked and putting back on the cooker in a dredge pan or foil to reheat or stay warm would also be a violation. For that matter, "cooking" continues in a Cambro or dry cooler so the pork could not be parted prior to being wrapped in foil and placed in one of those vessels either.

I think a number of teams would be in violation of this rule if that is how it is interpreted. I would be very interested to hear from the rules committee on the topic.

CajunSmoker
07-04-2008, 09:44 AM
At our last comp, I wanted to put pulled and sliced pork in my box. I thought about doing just what you are talking about, but was afraid it would be a rule violation. Instead, I cooked two butts and pulled one at 180* to slice and let the other one go to 195* to pull.

Didn't improve my pork scores though:roll:

The Pickled Pig
07-04-2008, 09:47 AM
Just curious why anyone would want to cook a puney butt or a small brisket to begin with. Give me a nine pound butt and a thirteen lb or bigger brisket anyday. There is plenty of time to cook large cuts of meat at comps unless your not showing up until Saturday at 8 in the morning. Seen that in the Grand Rapids contest BTW.

I don't see where cooking smaller cuts give you an advantage. Quite the opposite I would think! I like big butts and big briskets!

Psst..pass it on...Double D likes big butts.

I think the issue is that many teams partially butterfly a portion of the butt prior to cooking and remove that portion from the butt at a lower finishing temp than what is used for pulled or shredded.

TexEx
07-04-2008, 09:51 AM
Absolutely Illegal...

"... Pork shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted."

Is anyone having a problem understanding "shall not be parted"?

You begin with a intact piece of pork and must conclude cooking with the very same piece of pork intact as one piece.

But I beleive it is OK to could cook more than one butt at a time and conclude cooking them at different times to have various degrees of doneness.

The bottom line is that after you cut off a piece (part) of pork you cannot put any of it back on to cook.

BBQchef33
07-04-2008, 10:06 AM
I believe that the starting product, before trimming, must be 5 lbs.

But as they say in the song.... I LIKE BIGG BUTTS AND I CANNOT LIE!! why would ya want to start with a little one? Anyway..

my interpertation of the rule is that it must be cooked whole, the entire time. If you seperate a piece at 145, the rest of the butt cannot be returned to the pit and used in the contest. If you want to use parts of different cuts, cooked to different temps, and put them in the same box, then cook seperate butts.

I have discussed (with reps) that some cooks will significantly cut around and seperate the money muscle, but leave it attached to the rest of the butt by a small piece. I was even given a demonstration(by the rep/pitmaster) of how this is done... Technically, its legal. however, using the technique above, if you seperate the money muscle and cook it so it APPEARS to be cooked seperately, there is a risk that this would be caught by an experienced judge or judge/pitmaster and questioned. This happened at a contest and the cook had to explain himself. You are risking a DQ for cooking a tenderloin, or parts, or seperating. After seeing this done and the result, I would not take the risk. Additionally, IMO, its splitting the hairs and not the how the rule was intended.

Most of the time, in contests, I use boneless butts and cook at least 2. I rub the hell out of it inside and out and then tie it up. I cook each to different temps and slice one and pull/chunk the other. But they remain intact throught the cook. Once Cooked to the proper temps, you can seperate the parts later. But once seperated, they cant be returned to the pit seperatly.

a few times(not in a contest) I have cooked them openfaced/butterflyied to allow more surface area and bark formation.. and the money muscle cooks open faced. the one(for slicing)I pull at a lower temp, but it was cooked intact just splayed wide open. The result was a much faster cook, and alot of pieces with bark. I personally like the result better when its tied up.




My nickles worth.. Your milage may vary.

drbbq
07-04-2008, 11:35 AM
Parting that butt and cooking half to a different degree of doneness would be cheating IMO. Figuring out how to declare it legal seems like word play to me. We all know what the intent of the rule is and once you separate it into two pieces, it's parted.

The Pickled Pig
07-04-2008, 12:25 PM
We all know what the intent of the rule is

Not to sound like a wise a$$, but what is the intent of the rule? I don't see a lot of difference in cooking a butt to 180 and another butt to 190 or cooking one butt and separating a part of it at 180 and cooking the rest to 190. What great spirit of competition is being violated?

I am not advocating one way or the other. I like the discussion because the rule seems poorly defined to me. I can read the rule one way and think that it's against the rules to dunk sliced or pulled pork in a hot/boiling bath of sauce because it will be "cooking" parted. I can read it another way and think that pork is "cooked" at 150 and anything after that is fair game.

It seems to me that a restrictive interpretation favors though of us with big cookers and ample resources. I can easily cook 8+ butts for a contest if needed. Those with smaller or fewer cookers will be limited.

And can we stop this underlying current that doing things somewhat differently is somehow skirting the rules or violating the spirit of competition? A rule is a rule. You either break it or you don't. There are not varying degrees of rules or hidden rules to play by. A team that "pushes the envelope" has just as much integrity as one that is more conservative as long as they do not cross the line and break the rule. If you think a rule is too liberal then lobby to have it changed but don't denegrate those teams that follow the rules differently than you do.

Brewmaster
07-04-2008, 12:28 PM
We all know what the intent of the rule is and once you separate it into two pieces, it's parted.

I guess we all don't know. What is the intent of the 5lb rule?

Nate

Brewmaster
07-04-2008, 12:37 PM
I have discussed (with reps) that some cooks will significantly cut around and seperate the money muscle, but leave it attached to the rest of the butt by a small piece.

This was exactly what I was talking about. Here is a practice shot I did at home. My goal is not to cook a lot of extra meat. I would like to cook two money muscles. So if I did that and still wanted pulled pork, I would need to cook at least three butts.

This was not separated (parted) from the rest of the butt when cooked.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i266/ngrodeon/IMG_7813.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i266/ngrodeon/IMG_7814.jpg

The reason for the small butt questions was I am considering using Berkshire pork. And my Berkshire supplier's butts are smaller than normal. So if I butterflied the money muscle my pulled portion would be less than 5lbs.

I'm just trying to think outside the box and I don't want to do anything illegal. That is why I ask all these dumb questions.

Cheers,

Nate

Double D's BBQ
07-04-2008, 12:55 PM
The pork looks fantastic Nate! Pork is cheap compared to the contest entry fees. I did have a judge ask me in Fairbanks during the meat inspection if my butts were over 5 lbs. He acutally took the temp of the meat too so I know some of these guys are checking. I'd try to stay comfortably over the 5lb rule just in case.

drbbq
07-04-2008, 12:56 PM
I guess we all don't know. What is the intent of the 5lb rule?

Nate

Well I've been around a long time so maybe I have better insight on the intent thing. (I'd say the intent was to make us cook whole butts while they're whole)

So let's take it literally.

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork
shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

It must weigh at least 5 lbs and it must be cooked without being parted. I don't see any gray area.

Paola Greg
07-04-2008, 01:09 PM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork
shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

It must weigh at least 5 lbs and it must be cooked without being parted. I don't see any gray area.

When the rule states in part,,, "shall not be parted",,,that seems very clear to me. Also, I don't want to see no rule book an inch thick in fine print.

Brewmaster
07-04-2008, 01:14 PM
Well I've been around a long time so maybe I have better insight on the intent thing. (I'd say the intent was to make us cook whole butts while they're whole)

So let's take it literally.

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork
shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

It must weigh at least 5 lbs and it must be cooked without being parted. I don't see any gray area.

Thanks for responding but, that still does not answer my question of why they want us to cook a 5lb piece. Why only have a weight limit on pork? What is the "intent" of this rule.

Dale P
07-04-2008, 01:21 PM
:eek:

Solidkick
07-04-2008, 01:41 PM
Maybe the 5lb rule was established for equality........

drbbq
07-04-2008, 02:18 PM
Thanks for responding but, that still does not answer my question of why they want us to cook a 5lb piece. Why only have a weight limit on pork? What is the "intent" of this rule.

I thought the question was "Is it legal?"

The 5lb rule is because it's BBQ and pork butt is the category. A real butt weighs at least 5 pounds. A piece of a butt doesn't.

Solidkick
07-04-2008, 02:29 PM
A real butt weighs at least 5 pounds. A piece of a butt doesn't.

Whew....am I glad this isn't in Woodpile.....this could go wrong so fast.......:shock: LOL

beam boys bbq
07-04-2008, 04:19 PM
i was told at meat inspection the butt had to be 5lb or higher and you can't lobe out the meat (the money pc )

this is what i have all ways went by

cooking it whole is the only way to go any way


my thoughts

york

Ford
07-04-2008, 05:06 PM
What is the intent of the 5 lb rule? Not being at the rules meeting where this change was discussed I will have to speculate. Here's my best guess.

A very creative cook wants a money mucsle with bark all the way around. So he takes a but and "trims" it until he has the money muscle. Then he throws out the rest of the meat as "trimmings". Before the 5 lb rule that was totally legal. Now I'm not so sure it is.

AND while it must be more than 5 lbs when inspected I don't need to have packaging that shows each butts weight. A cryovac with 2 butts could be 15 lbs with one weighing 11 and the other waiting 4. And of course I can buy a case unopened so there's no weight. If a rep wants to know what a butt weighs then they better be able to pick up a 2 pack and estiamte the weight or have a scale to weigh them. And if they need each weighed individually then they better let cooks know as we need to have sinks, etc. set up before meat inspection if that's the case.

Podge
07-04-2008, 07:00 PM
I hate grey rules. I deal with them almost every day, with all sorts of codes and different ways of interpretation. I even have inspectors throw words into the codes that aren't there and that's their interpretation, therefore law.

Let's look at this:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork
shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

So, taking it literally, when does the "shall not be parted" section of this rule apply, and when does it not ?

When is a butt allowed to be parted ? Obviously, when you take the butt, part it, and put it in the box for turn in. But does the rule tell you when you can part a butt ? no.. It only implies when you can not part a butt and that's when it's not cooked.

So, when is a butt cooked per KCBS rules ? (I will now reference rule #15, G. par. 3) I would assume that, since this is the only rule that has a temperature reference with it, I'd interpret that doneness temp to be at least 165 f.

So, my interpretation is that for a butt to be cooked, it has to reach a temperature of at least 165 f. after that, it can be parted.

but, since this is such a grey intepretation, if I'm in a contest i want to have slices for, i cook a butt specifically for that. I can't imagine trying to do it any other way.

This rule is badly worded. it says pork has to be cooked whole and it can't be parted.. fit a 6 pound cooked butt in the box.

BBQchef33
07-04-2008, 07:11 PM
This was exactly what I was talking about. Here is a practice shot I did at home. My goal is not to cook a lot of extra meat. I would like to cook two money muscles. So if I did that and still wanted pulled pork, I would need to cook at least three butts.

This was not separated (parted) from the rest of the butt when cooked.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i266/ngrodeon/IMG_7813.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i266/ngrodeon/IMG_7814.jpg

The reason for the small butt questions was I am considering using Berkshire pork. And my Berkshire supplier's butts are smaller than normal. So if I butterflied the money muscle my pulled portion would be less than 5lbs.

I'm just trying to think outside the box and I don't want to do anything illegal. That is why I ask all these dumb questions.

Cheers,

Nate

thats how its done..

thats how it was shown to me

and thats what was done at the contest. The box was called to the attention of the table captain because a judge thought it was a tenderloin. The table captain brought it to the attention of the reps. It was a close call DQ.

Since its cooked intact, it is legal, and it may be creative thinking, but it may also cost you a DQ when just one judge kicks it back as parted or a tenderloin and the rep doesn't feel like taking a run to your tent and asks for an explanation during judging.... and have you try to convince them.

our 2 fat Polacks team got creative and figured out how to get super crispy skin in their lang. Their process was documented here, it was practiced and practiced until perfected. It is cooked IN the cooker, not a pan, No oil or butter.. it was SO GOOD, it got DQ'ed as being fried. They thought outside the box, and it cost them. I personally learned form that.

i try not to force the judges, reps, TC's to have to make decisions, assumptions or take guesses.

maybe im being to conservative, but.. oh well..

Pig Headed
07-04-2008, 10:54 PM
This is the kind of thread that I like. All kinds of opinions and conflicting ones can both seem to be right. Just to add a little fuel to the fire, define parted.
It could be interpreted that it means to wholly seperate the piece of meat, thus butterflying would be legal. It could just as easilly be interpreted that slicing it open is parting it. Which is right? It's a matter of interpretation. The rule is ambiguous (sp?) and should be cleared up.

Jeff_in_KC
07-04-2008, 11:04 PM
How is the hell could ANYONE mistake the money muscle for a tenderloin? That's just stupid!

MilitantSquatter
07-04-2008, 11:05 PM
This is the kind of thread that I like. All kinds of opinions and conflicting ones can both seem to be right. Just to add a little fuel to the fire, define parted.
It could be interpreted that it means to wholly seperate the piece of meat, thus butterflying would be legal. It could just as easilly be interpreted that slicing it open is parting it. Which is right? It's a matter of interpretation. The rule is ambiguous (sp?) and should be cleared up.

To your point along with Phil's description on cooking them boneless becomes similar in some ways to parting.

ZBQ
07-04-2008, 11:57 PM
Just thought I would add this:

In the cooking class that I took from Paul Kirk, he showed us how to butterfly a butt
and told us that was legal for KCBS.

He boned it and cut it along the seam of fat that runs all the way through from side to side and left it intact at the end.

Chef Paul is on the BOD and that is good enough......... for me anyways.:cool:

ZBQ
07-05-2008, 12:08 AM
since this is such a grey intepretation, if I'm in a contest i want to have slices for, i cook a butt specifically for that. I can't imagine trying to do it any other way.


Well said, butt is cheap enough, why not just cook one for each and stop
trying to spit hairs and stretch the definition of a word phrase to mean something other than face value?

BBQchef33
07-05-2008, 01:36 AM
How is the hell could ANYONE mistake the money muscle for a tenderloin? That's just stupid!

sorry to go a little off topic.

In my post, I was not talking about those big arse tenderloins, but the small ones. APPEARANCE WISE THEY can easily be mistaken for money muscle to someone who doesn't know.

One new team intentionally turned in tenderloins for 2 years before someone pointed out it was illegal. Not only did the team not know it was illegal, but meat inspectors and judges did not notice it. It was finally caught by a rep.

The small marinaded tenderloins that come in 2 packs in costco when cut in half, look like money muscles.... rub them all around, cook them low an slow and and slice them into medallions.

Put them in a box..... and I will bet it passes the majority of the time.

Like this... you dont think slicing this would pass if it were in a box?


OK.. back on topic.. :)

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/DGV/DGV077/pork-tenderloin-green_%7E200199622-001.jpg

drbbq
07-05-2008, 02:03 AM
IMO this is the kind of thing that's changing the cookoff circuit. People want to wholesale blame the money but I think guys trying to sidestep the rules are going to create a whole different KCBS as we go forward. I guess now they'll have to write a micro rule describing exactly what a parted butt is and then there will be some micro rule needed for when you can actually pull or slice it and if you can do it at 165 or 193 and then we're going to need an official to watch every team and when the entry fees go up everyone will be mad. Is it really that gray or are guys trying to manipulate it?

ZBQ
07-05-2008, 02:20 AM
IMO this is the kind of thing that's changing the cookoff circuit. People want to wholesale blame the money but I think guys trying to sidestep the rules are going to create a whole different KCBS as we go forward. I guess now they'll have to write a micro rule describing exactly what a parted butt is and then there will be some micro rule needed for when you can actually pull or slice it and if you can do it at 165 or 193 and then we're going to need an official to watch every team and when the entry fees go up everyone will be mad. Is it really that gray or are guys trying to manipulate it?

I couldn't agree more Ray.
Sometimes I feel like I need a thesaurus and a frigging dictionary to figure out
how they are twisting the words and phrasing to mean something different.:roll:

But.....what do I know?:oops:
Nuthin, the wife tells me.:-?:oops:

tonto1117
07-05-2008, 07:07 AM
My interpretation of the rule is exactly what Ray has said. My 2 cents: easy solution would be for reps to make the rounds during the cooking cycle and do spot inspections of the pits. As a cook, if you knew there was a fair chance of an inspection, perhaps the rules would not be stretched.

At any given contest, if there were 20-30% random chance of a rep inspection, it would be curious to see how twisted interpretatoins of the rule might change.

drbbq
07-05-2008, 07:55 AM
My interpretation of the rule is exactly what Ray has said. My 2 cents: easy solution would be for reps to make the rounds during the cooking cycle and do spot inspections of the pits. As a cook, if you knew there was a fair chance of an inspection, perhaps the rules would not be stretched.

At any given contest, if there were 20-30% random chance of a rep inspection, it would be curious to see how twisted interpretatoins of the rule might change.

I think this kind of thing will eventually have to be put in place. I truly think there is more "creative interpretation" going on than we know and until it's policed it will continue. Problem is the reps are pretty busy already for the pay and this would need to happen at 4:00am to be effective so there will have to be an additional official and then the fees will go up and the organizers will be mad and the cooks will have to pay more and so on........

Dale P
07-05-2008, 08:32 AM
I do not have the answers to these problems, all I can do is play fair, hope everyone else does too. The reps can come look in my cooker anytime they want since it only takes a couple minutes for my little Spicewine to get back to temp.
"shameless plug for Jay"

IMHO if you get caught cheating, as in turning in tenderloins for example, your team picture should be posted on a new "page of shame" in the bullsheet.
I have zero tolerance for lieing, cheating SOBs. But I know in my heart, that cheating doesnt happen very often, especially in the south. :razz:
I have to believe that or I would quit this crazy expensive game and go back to competitve Bass fishing. Thats a whole other thing. Whew boy.

scottyd
07-05-2008, 09:34 AM
Forgive me if I keep missing the point here but Rules are rules for a reason to keep things on a even playing field. splitting hairs is what is happing all the time. Parted is parted you as a cook know when you have crossed the line.

If it is as big of an issue as i am reading it is go to the KCBS banquet and go to the Rules meeting and voice your concerns for your 2 minutes. I will be there rooting for ya. But as for now Follow the rules. As they are in black and white.

Alexa RnQ
07-05-2008, 10:26 AM
I guess now they'll have to write a micro rule describing exactly what a parted butt is and then there will be some micro rule needed for when you can actually pull or slice it and if you can do it at 165 or 193
It seems to me that the need for micro rules comes about as the desirability of particular portions increases. This particular permutation arises as cosmetically-optimal slices became the gold standard. But in parts of the country where slicing isn't so gold-standard as to become practically mandatory, it's not an issue. The rule was probably written when pulled/chopped was still the norm in a box.

So, some refinement of rules becomes necessary as norms change. Do they get tightened to exclude slices? Probably not gonna happen. Do they get tightened to exclude boned butts, or to define parting in terms of weights and temperatures, or what?

I find this discussion terribly interesting because our team doesn't use a behemoth cooker, so our capacity is limited. Someone who can cook a half-dozen intact butts has the luxury of selecting among them to find the best. Then again, slices aren't so heavily favored in our area, so this discussion hasn't yet impacted our team -- but you can be sure that it won't be too long before it will.

Dr_KY
07-05-2008, 10:43 AM
Everyone wants to win but it starting to look as though the fun is being sucked out of the game and that's a shame.

Big Mike
07-05-2008, 10:43 AM
I have to agree with ray and a few others. The rule seems pretty straight forward to me.

drbbq
07-05-2008, 10:46 AM
Actually the Kansas City cooks who started it all have been slicing their pork since the beginning. Pulled and chopped is new to them.

scottyd
07-05-2008, 10:59 AM
Actually the Kansas City cooks who started it all have been slicing their pork since the beginning. Pulled and chopped is new to them.


Agreed, you do see more sliced pork around the central US than anywhere else.

tonto1117
07-05-2008, 11:14 AM
I think this kind of thing will eventually have to be put in place. I truly think there is more "creative interpretation" going on that we know and until it's policed it will continue. Problem is the reps are pretty busy already for the pay and this would need to happen at 4:00am to be effective so there will have to be an additional official and then the fees will go up and the organizers will be mad and the cooks will have to pay more and so on........

I agree...there are definatley financial and logistical issues for somthing like this to be put in place....but to your point...
" this is the kind of thing that's changing the cookoff circuit. People want to wholesale blame the money but I think guys trying to sidestep the rules are going to create a whole different KCBS as we go forward".
Unfortunate, but true.With the amount of money teams spend to compete these days, I see no other alternitive but for the KCBS to find a way to change with the times.

How much per event would it take?.......if it were $10-$15 per team per comp, it seems feasible.

Pig Headed
07-05-2008, 11:32 AM
IMO this is the kind of thing that's changing the cookoff circuit. People want to wholesale blame the money but I think guys trying to sidestep the rules are going to create a whole different KCBS as we go forward. I guess now they'll have to write a micro rule describing exactly what a parted butt is and then there will be some micro rule needed for when you can actually pull or slice it and if you can do it at 165 or 193 and then we're going to need an official to watch every team and when the entry fees go up everyone will be mad. Is it really that gray or are guys trying to manipulate it?

Hey guys, I was just stirring the pot. I don't put slices in my box, so I have no reason to "part" my butts. That being said, I reiterate, define part. I go by the old expression "They parted ways", which mean totally seperated, so butterflying would be legal (which I don't do).

drbbq
07-05-2008, 12:46 PM
The first description seems like the answer to me.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
part·ed Audio Help /ˈpærtɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[par-tid] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. divided into parts; cleft.
2. divided by a part: parted hair.
3. set or kept apart; separated.
4. Botany. (of a leaf) separated into rather distinct portions by incisions that extend nearly to the midrib or the base.
5. Heraldry. party (def. 18).
6. Archaic. dead; deceased.
[Origin: 1350–1400; ME; see part, -ed2]

HoDeDo
07-05-2008, 01:11 PM
First let me state - that the rules were designed to be simple, and have a standard interpretation... Everything here is about wordplay on definition of a specific term in a rule... The rules were not designed to have one word distorted out of context... they were designed for honest individuals to use as a guideline to maintain a level playing field - and they do have a fairly easily decernable intent. For this pork rule.... it is so that you can cook, all the way up to a whole shoulder, or a cut as small as a boston butt roast. I butt roast is typically not less than 5lbs. Some folks were trying to game the roast size (to get the effect Phil discribed) so the 5lb minimum was noted. Now we are trying to take specific words out of the rule, and change the intent. follow the rule, work with the same confines as the rest of us. keep an even playing field as intended.
I would say, yes it's legal. In my limited comp experience, I've never seen a rep or anyone else check someone's smoker to see what size butts,brisket or any other meat was being cooked. The Reps should not have to come and check -- folks used to take pride in the idea that with everyone starting from the same cuts, and same state of prep.... they on any given day they might be able to have better food than the guy next to them. I remember my dad competing in the KCKCC Blue Devil cook-off before KCBS was sanctioning the events... IT was about pride, and being the best cook under the given set of variables. no one wanted to game the system...

If that is the case, then pulling and slicing the pork after being cooked and putting back on the cooker in a dredge pan or foil to reheat or stay warm would also be a violation. For that matter, "cooking" continues in a Cambro or dry cooler so the pork could not be parted prior to being wrapped in foil and placed in one of those vessels either.

I think a number of teams would be in violation of this rule if that is how it is interpreted. I would be very interested to hear from the rules committee on the topic.

You have to maintain foodsafe temps on your meat... your statement you prove out the rule. after your meat is cooked, you can put it in a pan or a cambro, or whatever you like.... Again -- rather than twist the rule by distorting a word... look at the rule... it is defined to say, "Keep your meat whole until you are done cooking." You know at what point that is.... are you cooking to slice? you are at 185.... cooking to pull it? 200? IF you are still cooking your meat to get it to it's finished state.... dont part it. very simple, unless you are trying to slice and pull meat out of the same butt.... or get a money muscle parted for a full bark effect. but if you look at the rule... cook it til it is done, then part it.

Parting that butt and cooking half to a different degree of doneness would be cheating IMO. Figuring out how to declare it legal seems like word play to me. We all know what the intent of the rule is and once you separate it into two pieces, it's parted.

Exactly.

Not to sound like a wise a$$, but what is the intent of the rule? I don't see a lot of difference in cooking a butt to 180 and another butt to 190 or cooking one butt and separating a part of it at 180 and cooking the rest to 190. What great spirit of competition is being violated?

The difference is the rule... very simply stated is to not part your meat. If you end state is 190, cook it to 190 and part it. If you end state is 180, cook it to that and part it... but do not cook it further. The rule does not say you can not sauce it, foil it etc.... just dont cook it further. You cook whole butts, and see how yours are against the rest of the field. parting it and cooking the rest on up to a different higher temp... would be violating the rule, not the spirit of competition.

And can we stop this underlying current that doing things somewhat differently is somehow skirting the rules or violating the spirit of competition? A rule is a rule. You either break it or you don't. There are not varying degrees of rules or hidden rules to play by. A team that "pushes the envelope" has just as much integrity as one that is more conservative as long as they do not cross the line and break the rule. If you think a rule is too liberal then lobby to have it changed but don't denegrate those teams that follow the rules differently than you do.

The need for all the "micro" definitions is changing the intent and core values we are supposed to share. We need to take a step back and look at why they are there... The folks breaking them know it. The rest of us want to play fair.

I think the good Dr. has it nailed here... this is really easy to take the rule as it is, so why can't we just do that? When we have to have rules to define the rules, and monitors to watch the monitors watching the cookers - where will the "fun" be in this anymore. I like to think I'm a serious competitor, but if the fun ever goes away, there isnt going to be much reason to come out every weekend and spend the money..

Pig Headed
07-05-2008, 01:38 PM
The Reps should not have to come and check -- folks used to take pride in the idea that with everyone starting from the same cuts, and same state of prep.... they on any given day they might be able to have better food than the guy next to them. I remember my dad competing in the KCKCC Blue Devil cook-off before KCBS was sanctioning the events... IT was about pride, and being the best cook under the given set of variables. no one wanted to game the system...

First of all, I do take great pride in my cooking and I don't bend or break the rules, at least intentionially. As I said before,this rule really doesn't apply to me as I neither butterfly or trim my butts to affect one part over the other and I don't turn in slices. (Maybe that's why I don't do better).
I like my butts to be at least 7.5 lbs or bigger.

I just think that the rule is not as clear as some seem to think.

HoDeDo
07-05-2008, 02:02 PM
First of all, I do take great pride in my cooking and I don't bend or break the rules, at least intentionially. As I said before,this rule really doesn't apply to me as I neither butterfly or trim my butts to affect one part over the other and I don't turn in slices. (Maybe that's why I don't do better).
I like my butts to be at least 7.5 lbs or bigger.

I just think that the rule is not as clear as some seem to think.

I understand your point.... but this rule happens to be clear... cook cuts that are 5lb or larger. And don't part them until you are done cooking them. Not trying to be inflammatory Ron, I just think this is one of the cases where it is fairly clear, and folks wanting a different rule should just submit for a new rule. This particular one is clear.

Butterfly - legal. The meat is still whole. That is a technique to get more bark. Can also dry out your meat depending on your cooking methods.

Trimming - legal. Trim all you want. but the piece of meat you cook is still whole, and 5lbs or greater, right?

I guess I don't understand how it is not clear?? what isnt clear about 5lbs or greater, and not parting during cooking?

I typically cook two 6-8lb butts, one that I can slice and one I can pull. They go to different temps, so I cook two - since the rule states you cant part them during cooking.

Paola Greg
07-05-2008, 03:14 PM
I just think that the rule is not as clear as some seem to think.

How would you suggest the rule be made more clear than Don't Part the Butt like it says now?

Pig Headed
07-05-2008, 04:03 PM
I guess that I'm reading that some think parting is to cut a piece off competely and some think parting is butterflying or trimming the money muscle so that it is barely connected so that it either gets more bark or can be cooked to a different temp. Maybe I'm reading some posts wrong, but that is what I feel that I've read. That is what I based my comment on that there seems to be 2 different opinions on the rule.

drbbq
07-05-2008, 04:10 PM
Some people think Rachel Ray is good looking too, so go figure.

Dr_KY
07-05-2008, 04:13 PM
Some people think Rachel Ray is good looking too, so go figure.
Is that good looking or looking good enough to...?

:twisted:

The_Kapn
07-05-2008, 04:13 PM
Well,
I have certainly learned a lot from this thread.

For many years I wrote and enforced "rules" for Army Aviation.
Discovered the concept of "unintended consequences".
Discovered that folks will always word-smith the rule to their advantage.
Discovered that the truly professional aviators and units had no need to "fine tune' or "word-smith" the rules.
They just did their job as professionals and all was well.

So--maybe just look at the big picture and do it.

Just my nickle.

TIM

BBQ Grail
07-05-2008, 04:18 PM
Well,
I have certainly learned a lot from this thread.

For many years I wrote and enforced "rules" for Army Aviation.
Discovered the concept of "unintended consequences".
Discovered that folks will always word-smith the rule to their advantage.
Discovered that the truly professional aviators and units had no need to "fine tune' or "word-smith" the rules.
They just did their job as professionals and all was well.

So--maybe just look at the big picture and do it.

Just my nickle.

TIM

Thank you, oh wise one!

HoDeDo
07-05-2008, 04:53 PM
I guess that I'm reading that some think parting is to cut a piece off competely and some think parting is butterflying or trimming the money muscle so that it is barely connected so that it either gets more bark or can be cooked to a different temp. Maybe I'm reading some posts wrong, but that is what I feel that I've read. That is what I based my comment on that there seems to be 2 different opinions on the rule.

I thought Phil gave a great example... But the rule states that you can cook it without the bone... cooking it splayed open, would essentially give you that butterflied effect. Tying it shut would give you a traditional roast.
You can bone the roast... so how you cook it after that, would be individual technique. Just keep it whole. :smile:

Some people think Rachel Ray is good looking too, so go figure.

Now that's funny I don't what rules you work by.... :biggrin:

Well,
I have certainly learned a lot from this thread.

For many years I wrote and enforced "rules" for Army Aviation.
Discovered the concept of "unintended consequences".
Discovered that folks will always word-smith the rule to their advantage.
Discovered that the truly professional aviators and units had no need to "fine tune' or "word-smith" the rules.
They just did their job as professionals and all was well.

So--maybe just look at the big picture and do it.

Just my nickle.

TIM

You always have a great way of stating things Tim! Thanks.

jbrink01
07-05-2008, 05:05 PM
i'm coming into this after the fact, so please indulge me. GOOD GOD!!!!!!!! What part of 5#'s is confusing? Sorry, just seems so simple to me........If during the cooking process you make it smaller, it's not legal. Right?

Dale P
07-05-2008, 05:21 PM
Some people think Rachel Ray is good looking too, so go figure.

Guilty and i bet even she knows what parted means.

Pig Headed
07-05-2008, 07:11 PM
Some people think Rachel Ray is good looking too, so go figure.

That would be Vinny.:twisted:

parrothead
07-05-2008, 07:49 PM
Some people think Rachel Ray is good looking too, so go figure.

You now owe me a new laptop Ray. I just spit my rum all over the place when I saw that.

QDoc
07-05-2008, 10:24 PM
I was told that the word "parted" referred to the practice of dissecting and then cooking the individual muscles in a butt. Apparently this was a practice of some cooks prior to the rule. Also it was instituted to prevent a cook from submitting sliced loin or tenderloin. However it was and is most disappointing to learn that the "rule" has been and is bent by prominent teams some of whom are closely associated with the KCBS BODs. I refer to the now common practice of "trimming" parts of the butt or butterflying in order to have acceptible pieces for slicing which is in violation of the rule as I originally interpreted it. Unfortunately no matter how well the rules are written, some teams will find ways to bend them to their needs. This is why the reps are there. But, it would be helpful if the Reps reported decisions made in the field and perhaps later ratified by the board in the form of a " Rules Decision Section" published on the website.

drbbq
07-06-2008, 06:39 AM
Butterflying has always been acceptable and was never considered "parting".
Parts is parts. One part is not parted.

Neil
07-06-2008, 07:53 AM
Being one who has never competed in a sanctioned event but would like to someday I have found this to be a very informative thread. Thank you all. What really concerns me though is that it seems the world of competitive Q'ing is in danger of falling prey to lawyers!:eek:

smoke showin'
07-06-2008, 08:50 AM
if you have to ask if it's legal it probably isn't

River City Smokehouse
07-06-2008, 06:43 PM
The way I see it is if the meat is attached then it isn't parted, so cook it how you want til it becomes a issue and then deal with it. If it needs pulled at 185* then do it. When it's done, it's done. I think some are thinking way too hard here. IMO

tboneld
07-06-2008, 08:31 PM
Anyone have any diagrams? Or instructions? I've only turned it in pulled.