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View Full Version : Turning in two forms of meat in the same box


Ron_L
06-29-2008, 09:26 PM
I brought this up in another thread but I created a separate thread so as to not hijack the original.

In my judging class we were told that if a team turns in two forms of meat in a box (e.g., slices and pulled for pork, slices and chunks/burnt ends for brisket) we were to taste both forms and judge the entry based on both. If that is the case, and the box doesn't have six portions of both forms of the meat (e.g., six slices of brisket and six chunks), and every judge doesn't get a piece of both, has that box been judged correctly by each judge? Should the box be DQ'd for not providing 6 portions of each form of the meat?

I would love to hear from some experienced reps and table captains on this.

BlueHwyBBQ
06-29-2008, 09:49 PM
This exact situation came up three weeks ago. A brisket box had 7-8 slices of brisket and 4 chunks. The table captain called the rep over (a very experienced rep) and the rep said that since there were 6 or more individual servings the box was ok. No DQ.

Scott

MilitantSquatter
06-29-2008, 09:53 PM
I don't think there are any rules specifically stating that a DQ is required if not equal types in a box. Just 6 total pieces... that could be 5 slices and 1 burnt end or 4 wings and two thighs etc. Common sense to score best and courtesy dictate to include 6 or more of the same.

In my judging class it was stated that if multiple forms are submitted, the cook wants you to try both and then they should be judged equally. But if If a box has 6 burnt ends and 6 slices, I'm not even sure if a judge is required to select one of each. Couldn't they just select a burnt end only as their judging portion and grade on that only ?

HoDeDo
06-29-2008, 09:58 PM
I don't think there are any rules specifically stating that a DQ is required if not equal types in a box. Just 6 total pieces... that could be 5 slices and 1 burnt end or 4 wings and two thighs etc. Common sense to score best and courtesy dictate to include 6 or more of the same.

Agreed. I would not DQ for it, but if I am judge 6 and I don't get a burnt end.... that better be the best slice I ever ate :twisted:

Sawdustguy
06-29-2008, 10:10 PM
I agree with Vinny and Andy.

NotleyQue
06-29-2008, 11:15 PM
As long as there are 6 individual pieces and each judge gets to have 1 piece the box is fine with me. No reason for a DQ, and the rules is straight forward on this, there should never be a different interpretation of that rule. 6 is 6 period.

ModelMaker
06-30-2008, 08:25 AM
6 pcs is 6 pcs. What has always bothered me is if the cook puts in both slices and chunks and I take a piece of each almost every time one is better than the other and I have to either decide the score on the good piece or the bad piece, or maybe even add them together and divide by two??????
In trainig I think they say to try each because the cook offers both and just decide the final score ( 1+1 /2).
What are your thoughts and expectations as a cook when you put both in the box and they both aren't great?
ModelMaker

Transformer BBQ
06-30-2008, 01:20 PM
What are your thoughts and expectations as a cook when you put both in the box and they both aren't great?
ModelMaker

As a cook... if I put both in the box and they aren't both good... I'm hurting myself.

If you have one option that is better than the other... that is the only one that should go in. Regardless if you plan that day was to put in slices and burnt ends... if the BE doen't come out well... its time to change your plan.

Never make the assumption judges are going to give you the benfit of the doubt... put bad food in, you should expect bad scores. Don't give someone the excuse to give you a bad score.

Have only 6 good pieces of chicken? but usually submit 9? Best move you can make is to only put in 6 that day.

CivilWarBBQ
06-30-2008, 01:44 PM
On my table this past weekend we had a box that contained two thighs, two leg quarters and four wings. In such a situation each judge takes a single piece and the last couple people get whatever is left. I don't think it's good practice to send in a box this way because:

A) Your scores will be hard to interpret because each judge is sampling something different.

B) The last judges see the full box but the type of piece they wanted to try is not in the box when it gets to them.

Ron_L
06-30-2008, 02:16 PM
This exact situation came up three weeks ago. A brisket box had 7-8 slices of brisket and 4 chunks. The table captain called the rep over (a very experienced rep) and the rep said that since there were 6 or more individual servings the box was ok. No DQ.

Scott

OK... The consensus here is no DQ. I can live with that since there are 6 servings, but apparently I am not the only one who wondered about that based on the experience above. So, three thoughts...

1. Why take a chance on someone else wondering about it and calling it to the rep's attention and
2. What does this do to the judges opinion if they see two types of meat and only end up with one of them and
3. as mentioned, if one of the two types sucks, you run the risk of a judge ending up with his or her only choice is the sucky meat.

tonto1117
06-30-2008, 02:24 PM
Brendan pretty much summed up how I think about it.

Muzzlebrake
06-30-2008, 07:36 PM
On my table this past weekend we had a box that contained two thighs, two leg quarters and four wings. In such a situation each judge takes a single piece and the last couple people get whatever is left. I don't think it's good practice to send in a box this way because:

A) Your scores will be hard to interpret because each judge is sampling something different.

B) The last judges see the full box but the type of piece they wanted to try is not in the box when it gets to them.

the last people at the table get whatever is left anyway, thats why the order of choosing is changed up, no?

the judges are each sampling something different anyway, the same piece of chicken isn't passed around.

if the judge wanted breasts and a whole box of thighs come in do they get pissed and mark it down? no reason for a judge to mark down a perfect leg because they wanted a wing

I think the argument that having one that you think is very good and one that isnt is valid, because it is hard to choose. I would choose to grade the better of two entries, and score the one that I thought was better

Plowboy
06-30-2008, 07:48 PM
the last people at the table get whatever is left anyway, thats why the order of choosing is changed up, no?

the judges are each sampling something different anyway, the same piece of chicken isn't passed around.

if the judge wanted breasts and a whole box of thighs come in do they get pissed and mark it down? no reason for a judge to mark down a perfect leg because they wanted a wing

I think the argument that having one that you think is very good and one that isnt is valid, because it is hard to choose. I would choose to grade the better of two entries, and score the one that I thought was better

I agree. This ain't a KFC variety bucket or thanksgiving dinner. You wanna be that picky, don't sit in seat 6. :roll:

CajunSmoker
06-30-2008, 07:59 PM
I agree. This ain't a KFC variety bucket or thanksgiving dinner. You wanna be that picky, don't sit in seat 6. :roll:


But half the time it's seat 1:biggrin:

Seriously I do agree that you shouldn't judge down cause you didn't get the piece that you want.

scottyd
06-30-2008, 08:00 PM
I like to be in seat # 2 or I just wont judge.


just kidding. I really don't care where I sit unless it's by John

CivilWarBBQ
06-30-2008, 08:55 PM
the last people at the table get whatever is left anyway, thats why the order of choosing is changed up, no?

the judges are each sampling something different anyway, the same piece of chicken isn't passed around.


Yes, each judge is getting a different piece, but unless you are able to produce perfect product for vastly different cuts (wing, thigh, breast, etc) at one time your scores will be hard to interpret when the judge who got the perfectly cooked thigh gives you 9s and the next judge who got the dry wing gives you 6s.


I think the argument that having one that you think is very good and one that isnt is valid, because it is hard to choose. I would choose to grade the better of two entries, and score the one that I thought was better

If I'm understanding you correctly, what you are saying is that when you are presented with two types of meat in the same box and have a sample of both, you would score only the better of the two. That's nice of you to give the cook a break, but contrary to what judges are told to do. At least at the judging class I took in 2006 the instruction was to sample all types of meat in the box if possible and award scores based on all the meat presented, so if one type was off the mark it pulls the scores for that entry down.

CivilWarBBQ
06-30-2008, 09:06 PM
But half the time it's seat 1:biggrin:

Seriously I do agree that you shouldn't judge down cause you didn't get the piece that you want.

Oh I agree, and I always judge what is presented for how good a rendition it is. My comments are based on my observations of what other judges have said. As a cook, I find judging to be an invaluable source of information on what not to do, more than what to do. My thinking is if I hear similar comments about why an entry was marked down in the judging tent at a few different contests then that is something to be avoided if possible, whether or not I personally consider it valid.

After all, in the end it's the judges I have to please, so their opinions are the only ones that matter. :wink:

Muzzlebrake
06-30-2008, 09:36 PM
Yes, each judge is getting a different piece, but unless you are able to produce perfect product for vastly different cuts (wing, thigh, breast, etc) at one time your scores will be hard to interpret when the judge who got the perfectly cooked thigh gives you 9s and the next judge who got the dry wing gives you 6s.


but the judge who gets the dry thigh is going to do the same thing. My point is that if you get a wing you cannot judge it on the characteristics of a thigh, or any other part.

like you said you have to judge it based on how good of a rendition that piece of meat is, not based on how it compares to the others in the box.

I have had the odd random 4 in the middle of 8 and 9 in a rib turn in and I can assure you they were all the same type of rib.

CivilWarBBQ
07-01-2008, 01:52 AM
I think we're in agreement then.

Anybody who's cooked a few shows has "enjoyed" that odd judge who can't seem to get on the same page as the rest of the table. I just hope no more than one of them is sitting at the table where my box hits!

Muzzlebrake
07-01-2008, 08:51 AM
I think we're in agreement then.

I think so.....

interesting point about scoring the 2 different cuts of meat though. What would you do in that case? Say you get both slices and pulled/chunks of a meat, one of which you think is a 9 the other you think is say a 5 how do you score that overall?

paydabill
07-01-2008, 09:10 AM
You can not DQ it - but as others said, #6 will not be happy.

I have heard this arguement with chicken. most people turn in 6 thigh. Judge #6 might have an opinion he is getting what is left. I do nto htink that is right, but what do you guys think?

Muzzlebrake
07-01-2008, 09:59 AM
Judge #6 might have an opinion he is getting what is left. I do nto htink that is right, but what do you guys think?

I think what we are saying is that Judge 6 does gets what is left unless there are more than 6 portions. It doesn't matter if it is all the same cut or not.

now for them to get PO'd about that is kind of ridiculous IMO, I turned in the box, not assign your seat. Dont knock the cooks scores, get pissed at the judge next to you that grabbed the piece you want.

Don't want the last choice in the box, get there early enough to sit in the middle of the table.

Ron_L
07-01-2008, 10:06 AM
To me it really isn't a judge getting PO'd that he didn't get the piece he wanted. It is more about each judge judging the same thing. If five judges are basing their scores on a slice of brisket and a burnt end, and judge six is only basing his score on a slice, it seems to me that the table isn't uniform.

CajunSmoker
07-01-2008, 10:43 AM
I posted this on the thread about turning in all drums, but it really fits in here better. I turned in this box of chicken in Pine Bluff,

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/cajunsmoker/chickenboxpinebluff.jpg

It got great appearance scores 989998
but the taste scores 897696
and the tenderness scores 788687
I feel really were affected by the different pieces of chicken that the different judges got.

Like I said in the other thread, I won't do that again.

Plowboy
07-01-2008, 11:36 AM
I may have misread this thread. If two forms of meat means Chicken and Beef... yes, that is a DQ. Whew!!! Now that this mystery is solved... back to the discussion of cheating if you use pellets.

G$
07-01-2008, 11:39 AM
6 pcs is 6 pcs. What has always bothered me is if the cook puts in both slices and chunks and I take a piece of each almost every time one is better than the other and I have to either decide the score on the good piece or the bad piece, or maybe even add them together and divide by two??????
In trainig I think they say to try each because the cook offers both and just decide the final score ( 1+1 /2).
What are your thoughts and expectations as a cook when you put both in the box and they both aren't great?
ModelMaker

As a cook, I sometimes include 2 types so that you, as a judge, select the one you are likely to enjoy more. :twisted:

If you try both (and I am sure many do, I have no problem with it), I guess you would have to sort of average them out. That seemse reasonable to me: You are judging the total of what you tasted.

G$
07-01-2008, 11:43 AM
To me it really isn't a judge getting PO'd that he didn't get the piece he wanted. It is more about each judge judging the same thing. If five judges are basing their scores on a slice of brisket and a burnt end, and judge six is only basing his score on a slice, it seems to me that the table isn't uniform.

Good point from that perspective, but I never even consider trying to present the same thing to each judge. I try to present something(s) that everyone will enjoy - that may require some diversity, rather than uniformity. Sometimes I feel one "cut" will do it, other times it won't.

I can see where our divergent "goals" bring about this very question. Good discussion.

Muzzlebrake
07-01-2008, 11:47 AM
To me it really isn't a judge getting PO'd that he didn't get the piece he wanted. It is more about each judge judging the same thing. If five judges are basing their scores on a slice of brisket and a burnt end, and judge six is only basing his score on a slice, it seems to me that the table isn't uniform.

but that isnt what is supposed to happen is it? arent judges supposed to judge the piece they taste?

it shouldnt matter if one gets a slice the other a chunk, they judge that piece they pull based on its own merits/shortcomings

CivilWarBBQ
07-01-2008, 04:16 PM
You've got to come up with some kind of average then between the two.

The bottom line is I never put anything in the box that I think might hurt me. For example if my brisket slices are spot on but I'm not thrilled with the burnt ends I leave them out. I'd rather take my chances of a rogue judge marking me down for not having them than risk having my scores lowered because the burnt ends weren't perfect.

QDoc
07-01-2008, 10:11 PM
Well you should not be dq'd. There are presumably 6 separated and identifiable (visable) portions; 3 thighs, a half breast, presumably sliced into 5 portions, and 2 drums. However, it presents a delimma for the judges. You have offered 5 portions of dark meat and 5 portions of white meat. How are the judges to choose and what will their scores tell you if the dark is better than the white. And what will happen if the first 5 judges take one of each thinking that is what they are supposed to do?
Contrary to popular opinion regarding offering more than six portions or filling the box up, it would be less confusing if KCBS required the submission of " 6 seperated and identifiable ( visable) portions only. In my opinion submitting a pile of pulled pork, or " fanned slices", or sliced and re-assembled breasts or ribs is a violation of this rule which is ignored by cooks, judges, and reps.