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Sledneck
06-09-2008, 09:54 AM
Just curious why they did away with the judges comment cards from last year? Has to be a system where at least you have to give a mandatory comment for anything below a 6. The 4-8-8 in received in chicken i think really owes me an explanation for the 4. With the skyrocketing cost of doing these comps with regard to food fuel etc more feedback is necessary or just out of respect for all the cooks that put so much in to this.

Tinybud
06-09-2008, 02:57 PM
I'd like to know that as well,, I judged the event, and i know from competing that an explanation for a low score would be a great thing to know..to get a better understanding what may have been wrong or what judges are looking for. And it doesn't take much time to fill one out. I'd like to see them at all contest.

Merl
06-09-2008, 05:28 PM
Jim Minion and I worked hard to get the Board to begin using judging slips with definitions, as well as comment cards. The Board would only allow it as a test program in 07. Jim, Linda, Mike, Merl and Don were the "Test Reps". As part of the test, we utilized post contest surveys. (more than 750 surveys were received and) the results were as follows:
98% of all surveys retruned by CBJ's wanted the comment cards
92% of all surveys returned by cooks wanted the comment cards.
However, the Board voted to not continue the comment cards into 08.
From the Novemeber 08 Board Minutes:
Jim Minion made a motion to use all comment cards in 2008. Votes were as follows: Gray-no, Kirk-no, Ownby-yes, Tuttle-no, Lohman-no, Lake-no, Whitebook-yes, Black-no, Minion-yes, Harwell-yes, Mullane-yes.

FAILS 6 NO to 5 yes

big blue bbq
06-09-2008, 07:14 PM
That about wraps it up for all political type people. Lets never listen to what the people want, lets give them what we think they want. Thanks for trying Merl!!!!

Tinybud
06-09-2008, 08:28 PM
Why'd they even bother with a survey,,, seems they do what they want any how,,, don't seem to care about what the members want,,if over 90 percent of teams and judges wanted the cards,,then it should have been a no brainer...

SmokeInDaEye
06-09-2008, 08:45 PM
That about wraps it up for all political type people. Lets never listen to what the people want, lets give them what we think they want. Thanks for trying Merl!!!!

Hear hear! For the record, I only received the comment cards once and didn't know what the heck they meant (talking about my crisp chicken skin though I had to turn in chicken sans skin since it was burnt), I could definitely could see the potential with some practice.

Sled, was the 4 in appearance that far off from the other scores? A four seems pretty harsh.

Tinybud
06-09-2008, 08:56 PM
I remember judging at Berk's last year, I gave someone a 4 in apperance,, think it was in pork, and when I turned in my score card, the contest rep asked me to explain why I gave it a 4, and I had to explain to him my reason,,
We competed at Franklin last year (smoke on the alleghany) and we got comment cards back,, some were helpful,, and others didn't make any sense,,but I think if judges got the cards more often and was explained what to put down, like why did you give someone a low score,, or what did you like the most about the entry,, wouldn't have to be anything complicated,, dry, salty, overcooked, uncooked,,etc,,, anything would be helpful.

Sledneck
06-10-2008, 04:20 AM
Hear hear! For the record, I only received the comment cards once and didn't know what the heck they meant (talking about my crisp chicken skin though I had to turn in chicken sans skin since it was burnt), I could definitely could see the potential with some practice.

Sled, was the 4 in appearance that far off from the other scores? A four seems pretty harsh.yes, i know its only one score and it gets dropped but i would still like an explanation. Having a rep ask the judge why does me no good. Interesting vote vs. survey. Thank You KCBS. board on another great decision in the best interest of us the cook and judges. What do we know?:rolleyes: Ridiculous . For personal reason I have been thinking about quitting competition cooking, this helps my decision

backporchbbq
06-10-2008, 04:45 AM
I would like to see comments. Some of our scores were really good and on the same turn in we got ripped by another judge. I don't understand how I can get a 9 on something and another judge gives me a 5. I love doing the contests, but it is kind of annoying. It may make me think about cutting down on the comps each year.

BigBarry
06-10-2008, 09:35 AM
Thanks Merl. Nice to know the MEMBERS are well served by OUR board!

I think the comment cards would be great. I had high scores in one category and a 5-5-5!! Other people had a 5-5-5 with good to great scores in a category. The reps should really watch the judges and take one aside to find out why they are so way off from the rest of the judges on a turn-in box.

BBQ_Mayor
06-10-2008, 11:11 AM
I got only 1 of those comment cards and it didn't help at all.

The judge didn't score it down and thought it was perfect but just wanted to let me know that it really didn't taste like "bbq chicken":shock:. What ever:-?. I'll keep on doing what I'm doing.

acorette
06-10-2008, 11:57 AM
Jim Minion and I worked hard to get the Board to begin using judging slips with definitions, as well as comment cards. The Board would only allow it as a test program in 07. Jim, Linda, Mike, Merl and Don were the "Test Reps". As part of the test, we utilized post contest surveys. (more than 750 surveys were received and) the results were as follows:
98% of all surveys retruned by CBJ's wanted the comment cards
92% of all surveys returned by cooks wanted the comment cards.
However, the Board voted to not continue the comment cards into 08.
From the Novemeber 08 Board Minutes:
Jim Minion made a motion to use all comment cards in 2008. Votes were as follows: Gray-no, Kirk-no, Ownby-yes, Tuttle-no, Lohman-no, Lake-no, Whitebook-yes, Black-no, Minion-yes, Harwell-yes, Mullane-yes.

FAILS 6 NO to 5 yes


I'd like to see the "comment cards" from the board members who voted NO when all people with skin in the game (cooks and judges) wanted them! Why not? What's the harm? I'm with Sled on this one - a number doesn't tell us what we can do to improve... Frustrating.

Sledneck
06-10-2008, 12:03 PM
Would a petition from members work in this situation or just be a waste of time?

BigBarry
06-11-2008, 08:35 AM
Would a petition from members work in this situation or just be a waste of time?

I say surround the KCBS castle with pitchforks and torches!!! Arrrrrghhh!:shock:

Jorge
06-11-2008, 08:39 AM
I'd like to see the "comment cards" from the board members who voted NO when all people with skin in the game (cooks and judges) wanted them! Why not? What's the harm? I'm with Sled on this one - a number doesn't tell us what we can do to improve... Frustrating.

In fairness, it should be noted that some of the folks that voted NO spend a lot of time as competition cooks or Reps, and spend more time at contests than most. So they do, in fact, have 'skin in the game'.

WannaBeBBQueen
06-11-2008, 08:49 AM
Would a petition from members work in this situation or just be a waste of time?Good Question...I'd love to know the answer, I think the comment cards were a plus as well.

The Pickled Pig
06-11-2008, 11:37 PM
The comment cards as tested are not very useful and probably detract from the judging. If you get 9's from 5 judges in taste with a card from each that says "best chicken ever" and one judge gives you a 4 with a comment card that says "too salty" (sub hot, sweet, etc.) did you really learn anything that 5-9's and 1-4 didn't already tell you? How about if you get 2-7's, 2-8's 1-9, and 1-5 with all different comments? If you get all 6's and 7's with comments like "tough" and "dry", didn't you already know that before it went into the box? Being able to critique your own entry is part of the competition. Those that do it well are rewarded. Those that choose to stick their head in the sand, not heed their scores, and turn in the same crap are going to struggle.

Are there rogue judges - yes. Are there rogue tables - yes. Do tastes and opinions vary by region - yes. But you cannot escape the mathematical fact that the scoring from contest to contest is amazingly consistent. The top teams win consistently, and the top teams consistently win. If your scores are inconsistent you need to change what you're doing to appeal to a wider audience.

The bad part of the comment cards is that it very well may have a negative effect on the judging process. Judges that know they have to explain their rationale for exceptional scores will tend to select mediocre scores because they know they will not be challenged. People tend to avoid conflict and most are not comfortable with the concept of constructive criticism. And how many are going to score a 4 or 5 on something knowing that a table captain is going to make them write a comment about it, possibly alienating them from their judging peers? Other than some reality TV shows, I can't think of any sport where judges comment on their scores. Just watch the Olympics this summer and see if any judge comments on their scores.