Ultra-high Heat Brisket ala Texas Old School?

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

Rereading "Legends of Texas Barbecue" I am struck by a couple of passages where we are told that some of the best Texas BBQ is smoked at 600 degrees.
Robb Walsh then goes on to say that Kreuz's pits in Lockhart have been measured at that temperature. The implication is that such high temperatures are not practical for home/backyard smokers.

Does anyone know how they cook such exceptional barbecue at such a high temperature? It sure does challenge the present day conventional wisdom of low and slow.

It seems to me that the Ceramic Smokers come very close to producing the same cooking environment as the big brick smokers that Krutz uses. I have the urge to give it a try and wonder if anyone has explored this or tried it?

[Norcoredneck]

Hope your at the store now buying a brisket and batteries for the camera!

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

I'm pit rich and brisket poor right now.

Might be able to afford a chuckie. Bought rechargeable batteries before I started buying smokers -- so, got batteries at least. :mrgreen:

[Norcoredneck]

Have you seen Kick Ass bbq website on high temp cooking?

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

Yes I have seen it. I like his site and attitude :mrgreen: - but haven't tried to do it yet.

What I am considering here is a much higher temperature so there might be different issues and methods -- but perhaps not?

[bigmo]

About two weeks ago I tried a quick cook brisket using Kickass's directions (here (http://www.kickassbbq.com/quick_cook_brisket.htm)).

7 pound brisket, 350 to 425 (avg 375) cooker temp on my gECB (half cowboy lump/half royal oak briquets, 3 hickory chunks, minion method, empty water pan, refuel x1). She hit 195 internal quick--3 hours. I could not believe she cooked that quick so I let the fire die down, added water to the pan for cooker temps of 200-220 and kept her on for 2 more hours to an internal temp of 208.

I sliced half and shredded half. She turned out dry but still tasty. Next time I'll trust the thermometer. I will definitly try this again.

I have not posted any pics because I felt it was not worthy but since the subject has been brought up here she is...

[Edit- I know that HeSmellsLikeSmoke was asking about "Ultra-High Heat Brisket" but at least I got pics :rolleyes:]

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

Thanks for posting this BigMo.

Did you cook it in an pan as he does? Did you think it tasted smoked enough? I have wondered if high temperatures would quickly sear the outside and stop the smoke from penetrating?

Many of the old Texas joints just use salt and pepper for rub -- which should not burn as much as a rub with sugar in it. What rub did you use?

I will be very interested in your next high temp cook when you trust that thermometer.

[CajunSmoker]

I trimmed down a packer to a 8" wide brisket flat this week. I marinaded it in Moore's marinade overnight then rubbed it with Spicewine's heffer dust. I put it in the UDS at 350* for 2 hours. It hit 165 in 2 hours. I put it in a pan with some liquid (about a cup) and kept the heat up until it hit 200* internal which took about another 1.5 hours. I pulled it and put it in the cooler for about an hour and a half. Sliced it on the slicer and it was like Butta:cool: Nice smoke flavor, good bark.

However, no pics, so it didn't happen:biggrin:

[Brian in Maine]

I started reading "Legends of Texas BBQ" yesterday, and am almost through with it. Really a great read!
I fast cooked a couple of butts last spring, because I really didn't have time to go low and slow. It came out good, but not good enough for me to cook it that way if I had the time to do it slow. Brian

[bigmo]

HeSmellsLikeSmoke,
No pan but I did foil at 160.
No smoke ring worth talkin about but great bark:icon_devil.
Smoke flavor was light but noticeable.
My rub was 1 measure salt - 1 measure pepper - half measure chili powder - 2 tablespoons sugar,
all over a slather of half frenchs yellow mustard and cattlemans original.
I'll say again - She turned out dry but still tasty. Next time I'll trust the thermometer. I will definitly try this again.
Thanks

[jgh1204]

I believe Texas BBQ places like Kreuz and Cooper's use the pit bbq method, somewhat like a UDS. Or to be more accurate, a UDS is more like real pit bbq.

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

The ones shown in the book look like waist high brick pits with a full, counter weighted steel lid. But it does look to be raised direct like the UDS concept.

I seem to remember the ones at Cooper's looking similar.

The brick must give a lot of radiation like the ceramic ones, which is what got me to thinking.

[Joe Bryant]

I did a tour a few years back and hit Kruez Market before they moved. I asked the guy cooking about taking 10+ hours to cook brisket and he just smiled. Said they cook them much faster and it was hard to argue with the results.

J

[QansasjayhawQ]

I did a tour a few years back and hit Kruez Market before they moved. I asked the guy cooking about taking 10+ hours to cook brisket and he just smiled. Said they cook them much faster and it was hard to argue with the results.
Yeah - I just got off the phone with my brother. He's cooking a brisket on the 22.5" weber grill indirect. He said 'I'm having some trouble telling when it's done since it's cooking a little faster on the weber'.

I told him that as long as it makes it to 190F internal that it would be good.

I think with brisket, it's one of those TxS=D formulas. The values are inter-related but you can adjust any one of the three parameters and wind up at the same place. Time X Speed = Distance OR Volts / Ohms = Amps

Then you can think that Distance / Speed = Time OR Amps X Volts = Ohms

Wait - I think it's called Ohms Law.

So - Time X Temp = 190F (Done)

Bottom line is, no matter what you do, even Turbo brisket, as long as you achieve 190F internal, you're good.

Hope this helps. My brothers - please let me know if I'm way off base on this. (or if I'm sounding like bro. billy)

[jeffjenkins1]

I seen a special where someone did a whole strip loin like that but never a brisket.

Jeff

[Ron_L]

A bunch of Chicago area competition teams get together in January for a mid-winter cook off. This year the air temp was between -5 and -10 degrees the morning of the cookoff and several teams had equipment problems because of the cold. One team had problems with frozen locks and arrive very late. They cooked their brisket in 90 minutes in a WSM and ended up taking first place!

[smokinbadger]

Has anyone here who has done the fast cooking method with brisket tracked the meat temperature during cooking? I ask because I have always assumed that the plateau time is important due to the conversion of connective tissue to gelatin. It would be very interesting to see if there is a plateau during the fast cooking version as well.

I'm thinking that during the fast method, even if less connective tissue gets broken down, perhaps the reduction in drying of the meat compensates for this.

Anyone have data?

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

Very good question, to which I have no answer.

I have speculated that 600 degrees would quickly sear the crust and would hold in juices much like flash searing a steak.

[smokinbadger]

I agree with the searing, but I think Alton's right when he says that searing does not prevent drying. It could be that shorter cooking time prevents drying though.

If I try this I will check the temperature vs. time and see what I see. I'm not sure if I'll post the data here, though, given the abuse I took a couple of weeks back when I posted a Stoker Log screen shot!

[McClung]

Ahh come on, give us another graph, we'll like it, really.

My dad was a cowboy on the 6666's so I'll ask him how the cooks on the chuckwagon cooked the meat. He told me once a long time ago but can't remember what he said.

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

I, for one, would love to see a graph of a 600 degree cook.

[JamesB]

I have cooked many briskets at 350°, but never at 600°... I too would be interested in the results of such a high temp cook...

Here are a couple of pics from the brisket I cooked a week or so ago on my UDS at around 350°. Not much smoker ring, but a good smokiness and a lot more juicy than the pics appear... 600°? Just dunno about that...

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg311/TexasQCrew/Food/UDS%20Cook%20051108/th_DSCN6259.jpg (http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg311/TexasQCrew/Food/UDS%20Cook%20051108/DSCN6259.jpg)http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg311/TexasQCrew/Food/UDS%20Cook%20051108/th_DSCN6260.jpg (http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg311/TexasQCrew/Food/UDS%20Cook%20051108/DSCN6260.jpg)

James.

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

The brisket looks really good. The UDS's are brisket machines.

Is it possible to do a 600 degree brisket on a UDS? I have done a few short cooks that hot on the BGE, but never a long one. Gonna pick up a chuckie today and experiment with it before I spring for a brisket.

[paydabill]

I have seen more and more people try this. I am not sure i am a believer.

[Cabntmkr1]

"She turned out dry but still tasty. Next time I'll trust the thermometer. I will definitly try this again."

I'd still hit that!:grin:

[jiarby]

Here's the central Tx style pits...

This one is Kreutz:
http://www.optimacreations.com/Gold/DSCN0743.JPG

And at Coopers in Llano:
http://www.optimacreations.com/Gold/DSCN0771.JPG
http://www.optimacreations.com/Gold/DSCN0773.JPG

[Professor Salt]

Here's the central Tx style pits...

http://static.flickr.com/44/109439077_1abd14e9d0.jpg?v=0

Here's some more shots I took at Kreuz from my blog report on Lockhart & Luling (http://professorsalt.com/2006/05/09/dont-mess-with-texas/). The thing about the Kreuz pits is they're long, brick pits about 25 feet long. A hot post oak fire is built on one end, the chimney is on the other end, and there are no coals directly under the meat (like you'll find in some Carolina pits, or a UDS).

Myself, I don't have an offset heat source on my cooker, so I wouldn't be able to replicate the heat convection that the Kreuz pit puts out. YMMV on this point.

Mike Mills' book sheds a little more light on the way Kreuz pulls off their brisket. Mills reports that they cook at 400F. They don't season with much else besides salt & pepper. I would imagine that's so because sugar and alot of spices would tend to burn at 400F, even if the heat source is offset.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/109439084_0d24fc4c44.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/47/109764461_0645a144ce.jpg?v=0

[Dustaway]

a lot of vfw's and other lodges in texas have that style of pit and turn out some of the best briskets

[Bigmista]

So - Time X Temp = 190F (Done)

Bottom line is, no matter what you do, even Turbo brisket, as long as you achieve 190F internal, you're good.



So should we call this Q's law?

[jiarby]

I think the longer it spends between 165-175 the more collagen/fatty tissue gets broken down. If you rocket through the threshold then the meat doesn't get a chance to slowly melt that stuff down.


maybe..?

[jgh1204]

Apparently, you need mutton chop sideburns to make this work.

FYI, searing a steak to hold in juices is a myth according to Alton Brown. The searing does add flavor through caramelization.

[ushi]

A friend of mine's grandfather cooks brisket directly with high heat. He trims off a lot of the charred parts after it is done. Hands down one of the best briskets I have had. I tried oust the secret from him, but he was elusive.

I am going down to his house sometime in June, I will try and document the process if he lets me.

[Norcoredneck]

A friend of mine's grandfather cooks brisket directly with high heat. He trims off a lot of the charred parts after it is done. Hands down one of the best briskets I have had. I tried oust the secret from him, but he was elusive.

I am going down to his house sometime in June, I will try and document the process if he lets me.
http://www.mjelectronics.com/pages/new/suncam.html

[bowhnter]

So who's going to give this a try and report back? Should be able to be done on a Weber?

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

I bought a CAB chuck roast which I am going to experiment on as soon as my plate setter arrives today for the Egg.

If that turns out great, the I will give it a try on a packer (hard to find and very expensive around here).