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ihbobry
04-16-2008, 07:42 AM
Simply put what is average when scoring? Is it average competition bbq or just average bbq? This really was not covered in the CBJ class I took. And frankly I didn't think to ask at that time.

I wonder because I was thinking while looking at some turn in photos, that almost everyone here was giving 8-9's I thought they looked great but I would expect them to if they where turn ins. If I saw them in person I expect I would say to myself they look way above average for bbq from the back yard but they look average for a turn in.

I think the same would translate to the taste and texture.

So what is average?

tonto1117
04-16-2008, 08:06 AM
Simply put what is average when scoring? Is it average competition bbq or just average bbq? This really was not covered in the CBJ class I took. And frankly I didn't think to ask at that time.

I wonder because I was thinking while looking at some turn in photos, that almost everyone here was giving 8-9's I thought they looked great but I would expect them to if they where turn ins. If I saw them in person I expect I would say to myself they look way above average for bbq from the back yard but they look average for a turn in.

I think the same would translate to the taste and texture.

So what is average?

Not exactley sure I understand the question, but if your judging a KCBS event, you are not judging "back yard BBQ" So according to the new scoring an average would be a 6.

New Judging Procedures and Score Sheet for 2008

December 23, 2007

The Board of Directors have approved changes in the judging procedures for 2008. After, a year of testing and development, a new judging slip will be used beginning March 1st, 2008. Each number on the judging slip will have a definition associated with it. The starting point of six has been abolished. There will be no starting point. The definitions are as follows.

9 Excellent
8 Very Good
7 Above Average
6 Average
5 Below Average
4 Poor
3 Bad
2 Inedible
1 Disqualified

YankeeBBQ
04-16-2008, 08:39 AM
Simply put what is average when scoring? Is it average competition bbq or just average bbq? This really was not covered in the CBJ class I took. And frankly I didn't think to ask at that time.

I wonder because I was thinking while looking at some turn in photos, that almost everyone here was giving 8-9's I thought they looked great but I would expect them to if they where turn ins. If I saw them in person I expect I would say to myself they look way above average for bbq from the back yard but they look average for a turn in.

I think the same would translate to the taste and texture.

So what is average?

Personally I believe the word Average has no place in KCBS judging since the judging is supposed to be non-comparative. You have to compare the entry to something else in order to say it's average right ?

STX Cue
04-16-2008, 08:50 AM
Not a certified judge, but have judged a couple of local events and I agree YankeeBBQ on the use of "average". In order for me to know what was average, wouldn't I have to look at all of the entries at the same time, then rate them accordingly? That is the only way that you could do it objectively.

tonto1117
04-16-2008, 09:02 AM
Personally I believe the word Average has no place in KCBS judging since the judging is supposed to be non-comparative. You have to compare the entry to something else in order to say it's average right ?

Excellent point! I have often wondered how many times judges have tasted the entry..marked down a score...ect...ect..Only to think he/she wished they could go back and change a score because "compared to" enty #(x) they would mark it up or down.

ihbobry
04-16-2008, 09:25 AM
Not exactley sure I understand the question, but if your judging a KCBS event, you are not judging "back yard BBQ" So according to the new scoring an average would be a 6.



You understand perfectly. I know it's not backyard bbq, that's why I would expect eyepopping turn ins. Hence the 'average" moves upward with that expectation. Look @ the recent thread on someones chicken box, http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40223
so many people chimed in with 7's, 8'sand even 9's for appearance, to me it was what I would expect for a turn in; it's a 6. It looks like an "average" comp turn in to me. So in this case I ask what is average?

Another part of this is are others afraid to score it average on a forum like this because 1. they know how hard the guy worked for it and want to make him feel good/not pick on him, or 2. don't want to say hey, no that's not a 9 or 8 because other people said it was a 9 or an 8?

I don't mean any harm to the cook of the referenced turnin, it seems to me the same thing happens with every "rate my turn in" thread, hios was just the latest.

I agree that the word average is nebulous at best, and misleading in practice.

KC_Bobby
04-16-2008, 09:27 AM
I wonder because I was thinking while looking at some turn in photos, that almost everyone here was giving 8-9's I thought they looked great but I would expect them to if they where turn ins. If I saw them in person I expect I would say to myself they look way above average for bbq from the back yard but they look average for a turn in.


If the turn in looks like an 8 or 9, score it as an 8 or 9. One can only put so much make-up on a pig (literally :biggrin:) to make it look good. Keep in mind, some pictures don't represent the turn ins as good as seeing them in person. Pictures can show the meat as a different color then the actual turn in based on the camera settings and lighting.

TexEx
04-16-2008, 10:09 AM
Not exactley sure I understand the question, but if your judging a KCBS event, you are not judging "back yard BBQ" So according to the new scoring an average would be a 6.

That doesn't answer the question "What Deserves To Be Called Average".
BackYard or Comp can be judged using the same criteria.



Personally I believe the word Average has no place in KCBS judging since the judging is supposed to be non-comparative. You have to compare the entry to something else in order to say it's average right ?

You are correct. But you don't compare to the other entries. You compare to your own personal expectations built on past experience. If you think the entry is ordinary in quality then that sould be what you call average.



Not a certified judge, but have judged a couple of local events and I agree YankeeBBQ on the use of "average". In order for me to know what was average, wouldn't I have to look at all of the entries at the same time, then rate them accordingly? That is the only way that you could do it objectively.

See previous reply...



Excellent point! I have often wondered how many times judges have tasted the entry..marked down a score...ect...ect..Only to think he/she wished they could go back and change a score because "compared to" enty #(x) they would mark it up or down.

See previous reply.
Although average can be a mathematical term which requires multiple numbers, average (and in our case) can also mean "usual or ordinary in kind and/or quality". This is all subjective. When you judge you are the authority, right or wrong. It is your opinion.

Suppose you only have one entry to judge. Does that stop you from judging as you should? Of course not, you judge it as you feel it deserves compared to your personal expectations. So judge each entry that way, not against each other.

Ray

ihbobry
04-16-2008, 10:15 AM
you judge it as you feel it deserves compared to your personal expectations. So judge each entry that way, not against each other.

Ray

And that is why I asked because I was begining to think perhaps my personal expectations are off when I go and look @ one of those rate my box threads. I also don't think the word average has a place in subjective evaluation of an entry. So far that's being confirmed.

tonto1117
04-16-2008, 10:57 AM
That doesn't answer the question "What Deserves To Be Called Average".
BackYard or Comp can be judged using the same criteria.

When I said "you are not judging "back yard BBQ" it is in reference to an appearence stanpoint....poeple do not go to the time and trouble to "present" thier BBQ as they would do in a comp....I sure don't.


Although average can be a mathematical term which requires multiple numbers, average (and in our case) can also mean "usual or ordinary in kind and/or quality". This is all subjective. When you judge you are the authority, right or wrong. It is your opinion.

Suppose you only have one entry to judge. Does that stop you from judging as you should? Of course not, you judge it as you feel it deserves compared to your personal expectations. So judge each entry that way, not against each other.



I agree. KCBS judging should not be comparitive. Decide what your standard for "average" is and all samples should be based on that criteria and reference standards.With that being said, I still wonder how many judges do what I mentioned about comparing.

butts a fire
04-16-2008, 11:29 AM
I agree with a lot of what has been said before me the word average is subjective but honestly I can't think of a better word.

When I look at a turn in box I have an idea in my head of what I want it to look like if it just meets those expectations it is average if it excedes them it scores better if it does not meet them it is scored accordingly. The same goes for taste and tenderness.

To say you aren't supposed to compare is a stretch at the best to accurately judge something you have to have a base line to judge from. If a person who had never in their life tasted BBQ before were to judge one entry they could score it 999 because it is the best bbq they have ever had. But once they get that first taste everything they judge from then on is based on past experience.

QDoc
04-16-2008, 02:30 PM
According to Roget's Definition: Of moderately good quality but less than excellent.Synonyms: adequate (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/adequate), all right (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/all%20right), common (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/common), decent (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/decent), fair (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/fair), fairish (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/fairish), goodish (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/goodish), moderate (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/moderate), passable (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/passable), respectable (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/respectable), satisfactory (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/satisfactory), sufficient (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/sufficient), tolerable (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/tolerable), average (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/average)
Definition: Commonly encountered.Synonyms: commonplace (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/commonplace), general (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/general), normal (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/normal), ordinary (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/ordinary), typical (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/typical), usual (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/usual), average (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/average)
Definition: Being of no special quality or type.Synonyms: common (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/common), commonplace (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/commonplace), cut-and-dried (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/cut-and-dried), formulaic (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/formulaic), garden (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/garden), garden-variety (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/garden-variety), indifferent (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/indifferent), mediocre (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/mediocre), plain (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/plain), routine (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/routine), run-of-the-mill (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/run-of-the-mill), standard (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/standard), stock (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/stock), undistinguished (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/undistinguished), unexceptional (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/unexceptional), unremarkable (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/unremarkable), average (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/average)

KC_Bobby
04-16-2008, 03:27 PM
Based on scores I've received and given, I'd say getting a 6 for appearance is basically below average for a KCBS standard of turn in - a presentation that doesn't necessarily make the judge want to jump into the box and get a hand in there.

7 - looks nice, probably good stuff
8 - now that looks pretty tasty
9 - wow, let me dive in right now - did Pavlov just ring a bell?

But I'll admit, I'm a judge that doesn't generally give less then a 6 unless the turn in really gives me a reason - basically a non-subjective reason. Not fully cooked meat, disqualification, something I'd only eat if I were hungry and stranded. I wouldn't give a 4 unless I wouldn't feed it to my dog.

Why? If a judge is giving a turn in a 6, that pretty much takes away the competitors chance of winning. And if it truly is a 6 (or less), the other judges will view it the same. No reason to beat a man down after spending lots of money and hard work.

I want to give out quality scores, but 8s and 9s are earned. For taste, 9's are always entirely eaten by me after all the other judges at my table have turned in their cards ... 8's probably too, at least get another bite. Seven's probably not unless it's the best taste score I was served per catagory. 6's, no need to go back to it for another bite after the table has completed judging for the catagory.

If a judge is giving less then a 7, I personally wonder why they want to take it home...

Now these are just my opinions and beliefs.

Sawdustguy
04-16-2008, 05:00 PM
Don't forget you are judging the meat!!!!!! If someone turned in the best looking meat in the world and had nothing else in the box (no garnish) you would have to score that higher than the prettiest looking garnish and so-so looking meat. When I took the class this was highly emphasized. Garnish is optional and is only used to make the meat look better. No points are to be deducted for non use of garnish.

Paola Greg
04-16-2008, 05:25 PM
Don't forget you are judging the meat!!!!!! If someone turned in the best looking meat in the world and had nothing else in the box (no garnish) you would have to score that higher than the prettiest looking garnish and so-so looking meat. When I took the class this was highly emphasized. Garnish is optional and is only used to make the meat look better. No points are to be deducted for non use of garnish.

Exactly, the meat should be judged as submitted, irregardless of garnish.

Roo-B-Q'N
04-16-2008, 05:43 PM
Exactly, the meat should be judged as submitted, irregardless of garnish.


You know this is a great looking box. I think it looks better than some of the boxes I have seen with garnish. I would love to see KCBS do away with the garnish.

Oh and I would give that an 8 in appearance.

Ford
04-16-2008, 05:51 PM
Average - we've been having this discussion ever since we went from the start at 9 system. What is average for one judge is not for another. On this Forum you will normally see boxes that should be 7-9 with the occasional poor one. At a real contest you'll see quite a variety including some that look like they were just thrown in or maybe even up.

The real problem with average is in taste that counts 4/7ths of the score. Is average what you get at Famous Daves or Smokey Bones? Is it what you get at Smoking Guns? Is it the average of what you have tasted at 100 contests you judged? Or to make this discussion more interesting is your BBQ the benchmark and you score down from it? I know judges that have stated nothing is better than mine.

Judging is subjective not objective. Use your best judgement considering that you judge an entry without comparison. Good luck. We win some, we lose some and sometimes it rains. Except we don't get rainouts.

ihbobry
04-16-2008, 05:54 PM
Based on scores I've received and given, I'd say getting a 6 for appearance is basically below average for a KCBS standard of turn in - a presentation that doesn't necessarily make the judge want to jump into the box and get a hand in there.

7 - looks nice, probably good stuff
8 - now that looks pretty tasty
9 - wow, let me dive in right now - did Pavlov just ring a bell?

But I'll admit, I'm a judge that doesn't generally give less then a 6 unless the turn in really gives me a reason - basically a non-subjective reason. Not fully cooked meat, disqualification, something I'd only eat if I were hungry and stranded. I wouldn't give a 4 unless I wouldn't feed it to my dog.

Why? If a judge is giving a turn in a 6, that pretty much takes away the competitors chance of winning.

So a 7 is average based on what your saying here in the first part, the part about taking away someones chance at winning I don't understand. ( I do but I don't :confused: )

CajunSmoker
04-16-2008, 07:43 PM
I have judged 2 events now and I can say that the boxes presented to me have run the gamut from excellent (9) to poor (2). That being said I haven't given a score below a 5 in appearance and only one of those. That was for a rib box in Hammond that looked like the cook threw the ribs up in the air and caught them in his box, slammed the lid closed and handed it to the turn in person.

Having cooked, I have a hard time judging down too harshly on boxes because I know how hard the teams work to make them perfect. I've also noticed listening to my fellow judges that most of them are not happy with everything being sauced so heavily and many have mentioned that they wish that KCBS would do away with the garnish.

stlgreg
04-16-2008, 08:35 PM
You know this is a great looking box. I think it looks better than some of the boxes I have seen with garnish. I would love to see KCBS do away with the garnish.

Oh and I would give that an 8 in appearance.
i am giving those bones a 9!

watertowerbbq
04-16-2008, 09:38 PM
If I saw them in person I expect I would say to myself they look way above average for bbq from the back yard but they look average for a turn in.

If they looked way above average, then they are an 8 or a 9. Either they look good or they don't. The example I heard in the class was that the bbq looked so good you just wanted to jump in and eat it, not it looked so good that you want to jump in but you should expect that since this is a turn-in. IMHO.


I think the same would translate to the taste and texture.
same as above

another way to look at it is that if you are saying that it is great by backyard standards, but not up to contest standards, then by default you are comparing the entry to something else. you, as a judge, are instructed not to compare to any other bbq you have tasted, whether that be at the contest or in the backyard.

it is hard to not compare one entry to another. it happens. you're human.

remember you're not supposed to try and find fault with the cooks entry, but rather judge it fairly. one way to judge how you score with others is to discuss your scores AFTER all of the cards have been turned into the table captain.

Mutha Chicken BBQ
04-16-2008, 09:46 PM
But let me ask this, And not to hijack the thread.
Having a word associated with the number now makes it subjective and makes you naturally associate the past experience of eating any food with the corresponding number. In other words a judge is now going to compare all food to each other. Weather intended or not.

Just my 2 cents, And great topic BTW

KC_Bobby
04-16-2008, 10:30 PM
So a 7 is average based on what your saying here in the first part, the part about taking away someones chance at winning I don't understand. ( I do but I don't :confused: )

Maybe it goes back to what you are saying about backyard average vs competition average. I believe scores should be based on average BBQ - which would include backyard, thus I feel a 6 at the competition level is a little below average for most competitors. Without doing the math, I'd guess that most competitors finish above an average 6-6-6 total score.

If a judge gives someone a 6, either one of two things generally happened:
1) that competitor didn't do well with that turn in
2) if the competitor did do well, the judge that gave them the 6 most-likely didn't do well (see below)- cause the other judges must have viewed it differently

Of course if I received six 6-9-9's, I wouldn't complain much. Would that be about a 174?

StLouQue
04-17-2008, 07:12 AM
I've also noticed listening to my fellow judges that most of them are not happy with everything being sauced so heavily and many have mentioned that they wish that KCBS would do away with the garnish.

Parsley sticking to a heavily-sauced entry is obnoxious. It's a good thing I am required to judge appearance before having to pick off the bits of garnish.

lunchlady
04-17-2008, 08:27 AM
just another thought...

I think that maybe some judges are getting used to seeing 'above average' boxes all the time... wouldn't that then become their own personal standard? With the quality of competition nowadays, which I enjoy immensely BTW, even great looking boxes can become somewhat average

So when a team does everything 'right' and then still comes up with 6's in appearance... it's very hard to figure out why, to yourself - as that team.

So... how do you get stars to shoot out of the damn box when it is opened in order to get yourself an 8 or a 9 in appearance? :>

Smokin Gator
04-17-2008, 08:27 AM
Florida BBQ uses a different scale but when I took the class the instructor told us two things that have stuck with me and given me a baseline to work from. He told us that "average" BBQ is Sonny's BBQ (anyone from down here knows Sonny's well). He said that would be a 7. If it is better than that then mark it up. If it is worse mark it down.

He also said that if it makes it to the table you should start at 7. Only mark up or down from there if it merits the movement.

butts a fire
04-17-2008, 10:37 AM
just another thought...

I think that maybe some judges are getting used to seeing 'above average' boxes all the time... wouldn't that then become their own personal standard? With the quality of competition nowadays, which I enjoy immensely BTW, even great looking boxes can become somewhat average

So when a team does everything 'right' and then still comes up with 6's in appearance... it's very hard to figure out why, to yourself - as that team.

So... how do you get stars to shoot out of the damn box when it is opened in order to get yourself an 8 or a 9 in appearance? :>


I agree with you here it seems that the competition is getting better and the appearance of boxes is getting better along with it. If I see a great looking box it will get an 8 or 9 if every box I see that day looks great they will all get 8's or 9's even if every box I see is above average I will not adjust what average is to me and I think this is the issue does average change with the more boxes you see?