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KC_Bobby
02-06-2008, 11:51 AM
Who should a KCBS sanctioned competitions give judging priority to if the competition has numerous of judging volunteers in plenty of advance of the competition?

(Of course, we'll probably all agree past event certified judges should have first priority, thus this choice was omitted)

I bring this up today because earlier this week I sent an email to one of the local competions this spring letting them know I would like to judge and I provided my CBJ number. The response was that they gave past judges priority. Now, if they had 100% CBJ's last year - no problem, I agree with their proceedure. However, if they didn't, well then I think all KCBS competitions should strive for 100% CBJ's when possible and all CBJ's volunteering prior to a certain date prior to the event should get priority over past judges who are not CBJs.

Not only do I feel that this is in the best interest of all competitors, I think this is in the best interest of the competition and the KCBS as a whole - especially if they are on a membership drive. Ain't no such thing as a free lunch - literally in this case.

butts a fire
02-06-2008, 12:00 PM
I voted for certified judges, I think that an event should give them firdt crack at the judging since they take the time to be trained to me that means that they should be able to judge more fairly based on the judging criteria. I also feel that a certified judge will take it more seriously than an non-certified judge. There are always going to be extremes one way or another but I feel better getting low marks from a certified judge than from Joe down the street who just listened to the judging tape for the first time.

eurycea
02-06-2008, 12:02 PM
I voted for past judges. You know they have experience, I don't think you'd have to worry as much about them not showing up, and they've supported the contest in the past.

KC_Bobby
02-06-2008, 12:07 PM
I voted for past judges. You know they have experience, I don't think you'd have to worry as much about them not showing up, and they've supported the contest in the past.

I don't totally disagree, but just because Ed or Ethel lives a block away from the event and has judged this one event in the past does not generally give them the nod (in my book) over someone who is a dues paying member that took the time to become certified. However, do keep their numbers handy that morning when a judge does not show.

timzcardz
02-06-2008, 12:07 PM
They should give priority to those judges that helped to get them to where they are today regardless of whether they are certified or not, just like they should give priority to past teams regardless of whether they are KCBS members or not.

Dale P
02-06-2008, 12:16 PM
Seems to me it would be best if the Judges were trained. How hard could it be to school somebody on how to Judge at the contest? CBJs all the way, even Ed and Ethel can be trained in what, less then an hour or 2?

eurycea
02-06-2008, 12:21 PM
I don't totally disagree, but just because Ed or Ethel lives a block away from the event and has judged this one event in the past does not generally give them the nod (in my book) over someone who is a dues paying member that took the time to become certified.


Which is why choosing judges should probably be done on a case by case basis instead of just going one way or the other. But given the choice you gave me, I'd go with the group I know rather then the one I don't know.

But if I were starting a contest, I'd put the non-certifieds on the waiting list until it was obvious that I wasn't going to get enough certifieds.

Ford
02-06-2008, 12:26 PM
I voted past judges. As a cook I like CBJ's although I don't like brand new CBJ's too much. :biggrin:

BUT as an organizer I would want to have sponsors judge if they wanted to. It's a perk for the sponsors and after all they are funding the contest. While most of our entry money goes back to cooks there are $1,000's of dollars in expenses to run a contest plus getting volunteers to do most of the work.

Bottom line is IMHO it's up to each contest to decide who will judge. We're already trying to force things on organizers and after a certain point they will decertify the contest.

Remember if it has a proclamation and gets 50 teams it's a qualifier so they don't need the KCBS. Or they could easily go to the IBCA. Get a few reps trained up north and they could start competing for contest dollars.

Tinybud
02-06-2008, 12:26 PM
I voted for certified judges, just for the fact that you are competing in a kcbs event, it outta be judged by kcbs judges. But knowing that it isn't always possible to fill all judges spots with a cbj, then someone that has judged the event in the past would be suitable. I would not like to see an event turn down a cbj for someone that isn't, just because they judged it last year. Ya pay a premium price to compete in a kcbs event, we deserve to have kcbs cbj's,,, but that is just my opinion on the subject.

MoKanMeathead
02-06-2008, 12:37 PM
I voted for past judges. I feel that organizers should stick with the people that have supported their contest in the past. I judged the Blue Springs. MO contest for years before I became a certified judge. Just because I became certified didn't by itself make me a better judge. Cooking contests made me a better judge but the CBJ class really didn't change the way I judged.

timzcardz
02-06-2008, 01:27 PM
I voted for certified judges, just for the fact that you are competing in a kcbs event,

Therein lies the confusion.

It is not a KCBS event, it is the organizer's event. KCBS is just giving it their blessing ... for a fee of course.

jminion
02-06-2008, 01:38 PM
KCBS is and will post the presentage of CBJ's at the contest the year before. This allows the cook to decide what is important, high precentage of CBJs or not. If there are two contests to chose from and one offers 100% CBJ's if that is important to you then that will effect what contest you attend.

KC_Bobby
02-06-2008, 01:49 PM
Jim, where is that info available?

thanks

tony76248
02-06-2008, 02:28 PM
I know that I am beating a dead horse on this issue, but the whole certified judge issue is simple. What exactly does a certified judge have compared to a past judge? What exactly does the certification add to a judges ability to determine good Q?

CharlieBeasley
02-06-2008, 03:26 PM
There is a reason to spend the time and money to become a judge. If you want to have them you have to give them some respect not all of us judges are there for the food. (There are some) I think at least most of us try to be fair, equitable, and do the job requested. I will compete some day and am not sure which should come first but head knowledge helps in any thing you do. I you are going to go to an event because it is KCBS certified then unless you missed the point you should want KCBS trained judges. If it is not a KCBS event make up what you want and live with it!

tony76248
02-06-2008, 05:18 PM
Well I personally think that certified judges are way over rated. As is garnish and appearance. I mean if a rib tastes great who cares what it looks like. Also, who needs to be trained to know good BBQ, and who trains the trainers? I would also have to think that if you try for appearance, you might be taking away from taste. I mean wouldn't you rather have a chicken thigh that tastes great with crispy skin and not so pretty or one that looks pretty with slightly rubbery skin. It's a no-brainer, you take the crispy skin every time.

Tinybud
02-06-2008, 07:27 PM
I admit that the judges class wasn't really an eye opener for me, I know what I like in bbq, and I know what the kcbs rules are, But for me, I enter kcbs sanctioned events, becasue I am a member of the kcbs, and like being a member, and knowing that the judges are certified, then I know they support the kcbs. I'm by no means saying all judges have to be certified, I'm only saying that a cbj shouldn't be turned away because of a non cbj is in place.

watertowerbbq
02-06-2008, 08:15 PM
I voted for the certified judges, although with some of the things I've heard at the juding table, it makes you wonder if they were awake during the class. I think you're going to get a more balanced scoring system with certified judges. During our class with Mike Lake, it was a real eye opener when we had to judge the entry and discuss why we gave the score we did. Hard to duplicate that experience at the contest site.

What I really want is a judge who is going to be consistant and fair. I HATE judges who are really just in it to scarf up as much bbq to take home. I've judged at tables where the judge seemed more interested in getting some food home than actually judging the entry. That's farken ridiculous!

motoeric
02-06-2008, 08:15 PM
KCBS is and will post the presentage of CBJ's at the contest the year before. This allows the cook to decide what is important, high precentage of CBJs or not. If there are two contests to chose from and one offers 100% CBJ's if that is important to you then that will effect what contest you attend.

Actually, what the cook should be concerned with is 'will there be enough judges show up so that the organizer doesn't have to pull people from the street'. If someone has shown that they are dependable and are interested enough to sign up in advance and show up when asked to, I'm happy to have them.

As an organizer, I would prefer to have 100% cbj's, but my main concern is that I have enough judges show up. At our event last year we had more than 30% of the people who wanted to judge not show up and a good number of those were cbj's.

Eric

jminion
02-07-2008, 01:14 AM
Jim, where is that info available?

thanks

It will on the calendar as part of the information on the contest.

Ford
02-07-2008, 08:10 AM
As an organizer, I would prefer to have 100% cbj's, but my main concern is that I have enough judges show up. At our event last year we had more than 30% of the people who wanted to judge not show up and a good number of those were cbj's.

Eric
I believe you've hit the nail on the head. Judges sign up to judge then decide to do something else and some don't bother to call the organizer. Now the good ones will let you know. So local people are easy to find during the last week or even on Saturday morning.

I'd love to see organizers report CBJ's that do not show up and don't let them know. Now I know things ome up but there's just no excuse not to call.

Scottie
02-07-2008, 09:14 AM
Honestly, I would rather see stats for "experienced" judges. Being a CBJ means nothing to me. You can go to a contest and have 90% of the CBJ's, this being their first contest ever judged. So next year, you see 100% CBJ's, when in reality, they had never judged a contest before. That is a great selling point for an established contest or a new contest in a established region. Where the CBJ's have a lot of experience...

Your score sheet can look like a roller coaster with new CBJ's. I say this from experience, as my region is growing by leaps and bounds and we have a lot of brand new CBJ's wanting to go out and judge...

Scottie

TOPS BBQ
02-07-2008, 09:58 AM
Well I personally think that certified judges are way over rated. As is garnish and appearance. I mean if a rib tastes great who cares what it looks like. Also, who needs to be trained to know good BBQ, and who trains the trainers? I would also have to think that if you try for appearance, you might be taking away from taste. I mean wouldn't you rather have a chicken thigh that tastes great with crispy skin and not so pretty or one that looks pretty with slightly rubbery skin. It's a no-brainer, you take the crispy skin every time.

There are a LOT of people that need to be trained to know what good BBQ is, i.e. all the people who look for BBQ that's like Chili's Restaraunts' BBQ. Experienced teams typically train the trainers. You also have to remember that garnish IS optional. No one is making you do it.

My concern is people looking specifically for crispy skin. What about bite through (not rubbery)? This is not a no brainer. A lot of teams put in a lot of practice to get that bite through skin. This is a good reason to be trained.

Ford
02-07-2008, 10:03 AM
My concern is people looking specifically for crispy skin. What about bite through (not rubbery)? This is not a no brainer. A lot of teams put in a lot of practice to get that bite through skin. This is a good reason to be trained.
I competed in a number of contests with split judges (CBJ and Non CBJ) and I can tell you that bite thru skin scored great with both groups. And Slabs flavor profile did pretty good too. Some judges don't even taste the skin although they are supposed to or they put it in the mouth to taste but don't bite it.

Like I said earlier it's up to the organizer to determine who judges.

KC_Bobby
02-07-2008, 11:28 AM
Honestly, I would rather see stats for "experienced" judges. Being a CBJ means nothing to me. You can go to a contest and have 90% of the CBJ's, this being their first contest ever judged. So next year, you see 100% CBJ's, when in reality, they had never judged a contest before. That is a great selling point for an established contest or a new contest in a established region. Where the CBJ's have a lot of experience...

Your score sheet can look like a roller coaster with new CBJ's. I say this from experience, as my region is growing by leaps and bounds and we have a lot of brand new CBJ's wanting to go out and judge...

Scottie

Scott, I agree 100%. But I also think it's likely that some judges who judged last year at a specific comp have only judged that one competition in the past, and just because they judged one event last year without training doesn't necessarily make them a good judge (nor does taking the class, but I think taking the class lowers the risk of a judge not knowing what's going on).

I don't know the answer. Maybe it's a training session for all first-time and non CBJ judges right before the event. Yet, I already see the problem with this - when it's game time and not enough judges are there, something needs to happen. Which begs me to ask, is it practical for competitions to get a list of all CBJ's within X distance from the event so the reps have numbers to call when they realize they are short on judges? Again, unlikely.

I guess this stems from me volunteering to judge 4 times now and only 1 competition had room for me. Then when it came time to judge, we were about to start getting turn ins, reps and others were scrambling to find more judges.

I know it's a fineline to keep people happy and it only takes one upset person to turnover the applecart.

Tinybud
02-07-2008, 11:54 AM
I'd love to see organizers report CBJ's that do not show up and don't let them know. Now I know things ome up but there's just no excuse not to call.
I like that idea,, if you agree to come judge an event as a cbj, and you don't show up, and don't call and let someone know you can't make it, then it should be like a 3 strikes and your out, you loose your cbj status. A phone call does not take long to make, to say hey something came up, I can't make it,...

Dale P
02-08-2008, 08:54 AM
I try to stay out of politics because frankly, i am not qualified. But I concur with Ford on turning in no show judges. That makes perfect sense to me.
Maybe judges should put up $25 bucks that is given back to them after completing their job.
See. That is why i stay out of politics.:)

paydabill
02-20-2008, 07:42 AM
I have heard both sides of the arguement. I know one contest in my local area did not care if you were cbj. I think the comment used was "what have they done for me outside of the contest."

However, as a cook I rather have a CBJ. I will cook more contest that support CBJs then those who do not. I think it comes down to knowing what they are suppose to be looking for.

Divemaster
02-20-2008, 03:25 PM
I voted for CBJ's... At least I would now what I'm cooking for... As for the new CBJ's, that would be me, I've judged a number of events prior to getting my CBJ... does that still make me a rookie?

Scottie
02-20-2008, 03:32 PM
I just want to know the difference with a rookie CBJ (or one that has judged 2 or 3 contests) and someone off the street?

Transformer BBQ
02-20-2008, 03:41 PM
I just want to know the difference with a rookie CBJ (or one that has judged 2 or 3 contests) and someone off the street?


About 4-6 hours and $75

LindaM
02-21-2008, 10:59 AM
I believe you've hit the nail on the head. Judges sign up to judge then decide to do something else and some don't bother to call the organizer. Now the good ones will let you know. So local people are easy to find during the last week or even on Saturday morning.

I'd love to see organizers report CBJ's that do not show up and don't let them know. Now I know things ome up but there's just no excuse not to call.
As a rep I can give you some crazy numbers as to how many don't show with no call. Here on the east - 20 -30% at each contest is a no show. That's right. And almost no calls. Scary numbers. I always tell my organizers to add at least an additional 15% - 20% to what we need. Then there are always those who show as part of the roving group - you guys know who you are - and no one gets turned away - not at any contest we do anyway.

KC_Bobby
02-21-2008, 11:30 AM
So if I get a wild hair on any Saturday morning that I feel like judging a local comp, it's likely that my services would be appreciated?

Do reps have a list of "local on-call CBJ's"? Something that would give them a start to fill empty spots when judges are not signed up by the specified time?

Maybe as part of the KCBS santioning paperwork, the organizer would have to provide zip codes within X miles of the comp location, then KCBS could provide a list of judges in that area. (An easy process to provide in Excel)