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lwest99
01-24-2008, 12:59 PM
If you were a judge and were judging a chicken entry would you judge down if when you pulled the thigh from the box it also pulled several pieces of parsley? Because in many cases the parsley will stick to the BBQ sauce I suspect this happens quite frequently. Thanks in advance for the feedback.

jtfisher63
01-24-2008, 01:03 PM
If you were a judge and were judging a chicken entry would you judge down if when you pulled the thigh from the box it also pulled several pieces of parsley? Because in many cases the parsley will stick to the BBQ sauce I suspect this happens quite frequently. Thansk in advance for the feedback.

Good question, we use lettuce because of this. I actually think that all parsley looks better though. Do the judges write down the appearance scores after looking at the box or after they eat?

YankeeBBQ
01-24-2008, 01:04 PM
If you were a judge and were judging a chicken entry would you judge down if when you pulled the thigh from the box it also pulled several pieces of parsley? Because in many cases the parsley will stick to the BBQ sauce I suspect this happens quite frequently. Thansk in advance for the feedback.

That was always a concern of mine but I think it happens less then you and I worry it will. I only say this because several "top teams" use a parsley bed and they beat the pants off of everybody. I've gotten to the point I think your leaving points on the table if you don't do it because when the judges see the parsley box they immediately think "now here is a team that knows what they are doing". I have no proof of that but it's a feeling I have.

Pig Headed
01-24-2008, 01:05 PM
Before they eat. All boxes are scored on appearance then the food is passed along the table to the judges. I also think the all parsely looks better. We use both methods.

jtfisher63
01-24-2008, 01:08 PM
Before they eat. All boxes are scored on appearance then the food is passed along the table to the judges.

Well, if this is the case then I don't see how they could mark you down. Can they mark you down on taste or texture for parsley sticking to the food? My guess is that they shouldn't, but you never know. I am going to approach the rest of my team about trying all parsley either way.

Scottie
01-24-2008, 01:31 PM
What would you get marked down for? Taste or tenderness? They can't change their appearance score. I don't worry about it.

scottyd
01-24-2008, 03:08 PM
The appearence has already been scored as been said above, no you can't change your score, if a piece or two comes with the chicken no big deal. You are already past that part any way.

Good question but the short answer is NO

KC_Bobby
01-24-2008, 03:11 PM
Worst part of the competition - making parsley beds. I'd rather do dishes. But damn do they look nice.

swamprb
01-24-2008, 03:48 PM
I judged a couple comps and heard complaints from others around the tables about having to pick the Parsley off before tasting, I literally had to wipe it off a couple entries. But we were reminded not to score it down because of it. I think it looks nice.

jtfisher63
01-24-2008, 03:48 PM
Ok, now that that has been answered, lets see some pics of parsley beds. Also, maybe some tricks of making a good looking one if there are any.:wink:

The_Kapn
01-24-2008, 03:56 PM
When I judge KCBS (or FBA), I evaluate and score the meat "as presented".

So, if there is a bunch of parsley or chopped salad sticking to the entry, that is the way the cook "intended" and I score the taste accordingly.

If they included the salad flavor in their planned flavor profile, they are good to go. If not, well.......:oops:

TIM

slat
01-24-2008, 03:57 PM
Garnish is optional. You can't be scored down because a judge gets a little salad with his/her chicken. I have never scored down because of it and don't know anyone that has. It's just one of those things that happen.

Jeff Hughes
01-24-2008, 04:02 PM
When I judge KCBS (or FBA), I evaluate and score the meat "as presented".

So, if there is a bunch of parsley or chopped salad sticking to the entry, that is the way the cook "intended" and I score the taste accordingly.

If they included the salad flavor in their planned flavor profile, they are good to go. If not, well.......:oops:

TIM

Do you compete as well?

Jeff Hughes
01-24-2008, 04:03 PM
Ok, now that that has been answered, lets see some pics of parsley beds. Also, maybe some tricks of making a good looking one if there are any.:wink:

You can save a ton of money on parsley by buying it by the case from a produce supply house...

The_Kapn
01-24-2008, 04:11 PM
Garnish is optional. You can't be scored down because a judge gets a little salad with his/her chicken. I have never scored down because of it and don't know anyone that has. It's just one of those things that happen.

If that was only true.
As I said, if the salad affects the taste, "Sorry Charlie".

Do you compete as well?

Well...Um...Yes.

TIM

KC_Bobby
01-24-2008, 04:27 PM
You're not serious are you?

jtfisher63
01-24-2008, 04:33 PM
You're not serious are you?

I think he is, but even if he isn't I don't doubt that there are judges out there that feel the same way. This was the reason I was hesitant to use all parsley. I'm willing to bet that only maybe 10% of the judges would eat the garnish with the meat and score it on that flavor.:shock:

Ford
01-24-2008, 04:40 PM
Worst part of the competition - making parsley beds. I'd rather do dishes. But damn do they look nice.
Now that's the truth. Dishes are easy in comparison.

Ford
01-24-2008, 04:47 PM
Ok, now that that has been answered, lets see some pics of parsley beds. Also, maybe some tricks of making a good looking one if there are any.:wink:
Make the boxes Friday night while everybody else is out partying. That way you aren't spending 2 hours Saturday morning and not getting the boxes done. Cover with damp paper towel and keep boxes in a cold cooler.

Pack the parsley fairly tight. Line them all up in the box facing the same way. Of course if you're putting a big glob of pork over 3/4's of the box then the middle doesn't all have to face the same way.

Practice a lot.

Make sure you know the lid will close without hitting the tops of the chicken. At one class a top level cook did a parsley chicken box, closed the lid, opened it and oops 5 pieces had smudges. Now the judges are instructed not to score down for sauce on the lid but they can score down for a mess on top of each piece of chicken rather than a nice smooth glistening surface.

The_Kapn
01-24-2008, 05:01 PM
You're not serious are you?

Are you talking to me?
If so--serious as a heart attack.

There are folks out there that think garnish is not "scorable" since it is "optional".
Simply wrong.

Those same folks (one of which is a vocal member here) will tell ya that "garnish makes the meat look better", or stuff to that effect.

So, I should give credit for a great looing garnish box, but ignore one that is poorly done??? I think not!

You simply can not have it both ways.

If you elect to use it, it can and will be used in the scoring.

Great garnish should help the scoring somewhere.
Crappy garnish should result in deducts for being crappy.

And, if it sticks to the meat, the cook obviously felt that was fine and it should be judged accordingly.

Simple. Not rocket science.

TIM

Puppyboy
01-24-2008, 05:11 PM
When I judge, I do not down the score if parsley sticks to the chicken when removed from the box. By time it's out of the box, the appearance score has already been marked on the score sheet. If the parsley does stick, I pull it off before tasting the entry. For me, it has no bearing.

jtfisher63
01-24-2008, 05:12 PM
And, if it sticks to the meat, the cook obviously felt that was fine and it should be judged accordingly.
TIM

I agree with most of your statement, but not the quoted part above. I've never intended on my garnish to stick to the meat. I don't have any idea if mine has ever had garnish stuck to it, but looking at my scores maybe it has! I don't feel it is obvious that if there is garnish stuck to the meat the cook intended on it sticking.

G$
01-24-2008, 05:23 PM
Thank goodness the Comp Forum is back to the important stuff (Arguing about Garnish) after several days of noise (the future of KCBS as we know it).

;)

Jeff_in_KC
01-24-2008, 05:51 PM
We use parsley beds. I hate doing them but my wife is meticulous at them and makes them look excellent! If we had a decent cook on our team, maybe we'd do better. That's probably why the Meatheads did so well at the Royal - her parsley beds had better Q in them! :lol:

By the way, when I judge, if lettuce OR parsley stick to the piece I pick up, I pick them off before eating them. I don't eat kale and such off my plate at restaurants. I never figure the chef intended for his food to be eaten that way. I don't assume cooks at BBQ comps do either.

Jeff Hughes
01-24-2008, 06:04 PM
By the way, when I judge, if lettuce OR parsley stick to the piece I pick up, I pick them off before eating them. I don't eat kale and such off my plate at restaurants. I never figure the chef intended for his food to be eaten that way. I don't assume cooks at BBQ comps do either.


Exactly...

ique
01-24-2008, 06:25 PM
To me it sounds like you are letting your bias against garnish impact your judging. Its a BBQ contest where garnish is allowed, so the cook put garnish it there. If a piece of garnish sticks to your portion picking it off and judging the BBQ for taste and tenderness would seem to be the fair judging procedure to me.




When I judge KCBS (or FBA), I evaluate and score the meat "as presented".

So, if there is a bunch of parsley or chopped salad sticking to the entry, that is the way the cook "intended" and I score the taste accordingly.

If they included the salad flavor in their planned flavor profile, they are good to go. If not, well.......:oops:

TIM

The_Kapn
01-24-2008, 06:45 PM
To me it sounds like you are letting your bias against garnish impact your judging. Its a BBQ contest where garnish is allowed, so the cook put garnish it there. If a piece of garnish sticks to your portion picking it off and judging the BBQ for taste and tenderness would seem to be the fair judging procedure to me.

That "bias" thing is simply Bull Chit.
Actually, I have no bias for or against garnish--period!
Those who really know me know better than that.
I do know the KCBS rules and understand them without bias, one way or the other.

What I find amazing is that cooks want credit for "great looking garnish" and find every reason in the world to discredit anyone who feels that poor garnish is not gonna help them out score wize. :lol:

I have said it before, many times, and will say it again---

It is "professional" level BBQ and garnish (if used) should be at the "professional" level.

Now, if you are cooking on a pellet pooper, you should get perfect 9's in all areas all the time :lol:

TIM

Westexbbq
01-24-2008, 06:56 PM
My dos centavos,
When I am judging, after the initial appearance scores are entered, and then I get to pick out my portion to judge and put on my place-mat, if a piece of bed garnish comes with it, no big deal. I discard it before I eat it and it does not factor in my score.
Not a factor as far as I am concerned.

River City Smokehouse
01-24-2008, 07:00 PM
Absolutely not. That would not have anything to do with appearance first off and even when I did pick up the thigh and it had stuff sticking to it, that's just part of it. I pull it off and keep the meat. No score affected. In my opinion if a judge ever took something off for that it would be wrong for them to do that.

MilitantSquatter
01-24-2008, 07:00 PM
My dos centavos,
When I am judging, after the initial appearance scores are entered, and then I get to pick out my portion to judge and put on my place-mat, if a piece of bed garnish comes with it, no big deal. I discard it before I eat it and it does not factor in my score.
Not a factor as far as I am concerned.

That makes quatro centavos...

I agree. Appearance and taste are two different scores and I'd be amazed if parsley makes that much of a flavor impact after sitting on some garnish for a few minutes that it overpowers all of the marinades, injections, brines, rubs, sauces and smoke.

KC_Bobby
01-24-2008, 07:26 PM
OK, I went above and beyond and sent Mike Lake an email. (below) I'll let everyone know his response.

Some other competitors and I got into a discussion that lead to a judging question.

If garnish gets stuck to a piece of chicken while the judge is taking her/his piece out of the turn in box, should the judge:

a: eat the sample with the garnish on and score based on the taste with the garnish taste
b: eat the sample with the garnish on and score based on the taste without the garnish taste
c: discard the garnish without point reduction and sample
d: discard the garnish with point reduction and sample

eagle697
01-24-2008, 07:32 PM
i have only competed at one competition that allowed garnish so have only done it once.
I don't think it looked that good. It was our first competition and i wanted to get some feedback on the garnish. Any help would be much appreciated. I inserted the pics with appearance scores to try and get your help with how the garnish could have impacted the score (as well as anything else i can do to improve appearance score)
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg
how do i insert the pics?
file:///D:/Pictures/Smokin%20Elks/P1010134.JPG

The Pickled Pig
01-24-2008, 07:37 PM
Perfect topic Lee. Last weekend I practiced with parsley bed presentations and noticed on my chicken that several pieces of parsley came up with it. My fear was that judges like Kapn would crucify my other scores because they wouldn't remove the parsley before eating it. The low score gets tossed so it shouldn't matter unless 2 such judges happen to be sitting at the same table. And, in any case it's clear that there is a different interpretation of the rules among some judges that would result in inconsistent scoring.

Couldn't this be clarified in the rules by stating something like "Judges must remove any garnish attached to the entry prior to sampling." By definition, garnish is supposed to be decorative.

KC_Bobby
01-24-2008, 07:52 PM
Hence my email to Mike Lake, who chairs the KCBS judging committee.

eagle697
01-24-2008, 08:10 PM
appearance scores for the meats are as follows, any suggestions would be great.

chicken, 8,8,7,7,8,7
ribs, 7,7,6,7,7,8
pork, 8,8,8,8,9,7
brisket, 9,9,8,9,8,9

watertowerbbq
01-24-2008, 08:31 PM
I'm a competition cook and a KCBS judge. When judging, I try to give every benefit to the cook. They spent there own money, stayed up all night cooking the food, presented in the best manner possible for the judges. This is how Mike Lake, our instructor, taught us.

I really enjoy competing and hardly consider myself a "professional". Professionals get paid. We've gotten lucky and won some money, but if this was my profession, I'd be broke.

Unless the entire sample was completely covered in parsley, it shouldn't be a problem. I always look for the bite that looks most appealing. Sounds like Tim is looking for a way to downgrade the sample.

I be interested in knowing how much a well garnished box adds to the bbq score and how much a poorly garnished box deducts from the score. How much point deduction is it for "having" to eat the garnish? Does it effect the taste and tenderness or just one?

Last summer I was juding a contest and one lady at the table downgraded a team for their pork entry because they didn't give her both pulled and sliced pork. When the table captain found out, she explained that was improper.

Mutha Chicken BBQ
01-24-2008, 09:16 PM
eagle,

I'm no expert here but I will offer the following advice,

Chicken- Looks dry needs a spritz of some apple juice or something to make it look more apealing, Also seems to be dark in color. Also the pieces are not arranged as neat as they could be.

Ribs-- Same, Dry, Not so neat in apearance.Ribs look as though they are hidden by the parsley

Pork-- looks good, Needs a spritz And seems to be hidden like the ribs

Brisket-- Nice color, Parsley seems to be jumping out of the box.

Overall I personally would arrange the garnish a little differently. More on the bottom as an accent. But that is me. Hope I have not offened you in any way as this was meant in good faith, Hopefully you walk in your next comp.

Looks like I better get to practicing again.

Here's one of our brisket boxes, That I like--still needs teaking though
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/muthachickenbbq/ImportedPhotos00045.jpg

The_Kapn
01-24-2008, 09:24 PM
I just love the "leaps" that people make sometimes.

Some one feels that I would "crucify" a score because of parsley taste! :lol:
That is just presumptuous and preposterous.

I simply said I would judge it the way it was presented and I think that is the way we are instructed to do it.

Heck, maybe the parsley or chopped lettuce is "just the ticket" for a killer taste. Guess I should not give credit for it???? :lol:

Some folks are just "spring loaded" to pick a fight, I guess.

TIM

Jeff Hughes
01-24-2008, 09:31 PM
Kapn

You have been patronizing and condescending throughout this thread. Judges should have an open mind, not a closed one. IMHO

I'm glad you don't judge in my part of the country.

We can agree to disagree.

Regards--Jeff

Jeff Hughes
01-24-2008, 09:33 PM
eagle,

I'm no expert here but I will offer the following advice,

Chicken- Looks dry needs a spritz of some apple juice or something to make it look more apealing, Also seems to be dark in color. Also the pieces are not arranged as neat as they could be.

Ribs-- Same, Dry, Not so neat in apearance.Ribs look as though they are hidden by the parsley

Pork-- looks good, Needs a spritz And seems to be hidden like the ribs

Brisket-- Nice color, Parsley seems to be jumping out of the box.

Overall I personally would arrange the garnish a little differently. More on the bottom as an accent. But that is me. Hope I have not offened you in any way as this was meant in good faith, Hopefully you walk in your next comp.

Looks like I better get to practicing again.

Here's one of our brisket boxes, That I like--still needs teaking though
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/muthachickenbbq/ImportedPhotos00045.jpg

What were your scores here, and what was the comp?

Looks great...

HoDeDo
01-24-2008, 09:43 PM
I have to say Tim is spot on...
Well, if this is the case then I don't see how they could mark you down. Can they mark you down on taste or texture for parsley sticking to the food? My guess is that they shouldn't, but you never know. I am going to approach the rest of my team about trying all parsley either way.

Yes, you can get marked down on taste. KCBS states you should judge the meat as presented. You cannot take stuff off of it, pull it apart from another piece, etc. If two pieces stick together, that is how you get it... if it is salad covered, that is how you eat it - etc.

I judged a couple comps and heard complaints from others around the tables about having to pick the Parsley off before tasting, I literally had to wipe it off a couple entries. But we were reminded not to score it down because of it. I think it looks nice.

Wow. Not sure what they were thinking... The people at those judging tables were lucky :wink:

Garnish is optional. You can't be scored down because a judge gets a little salad with his/her chicken. I have never scored down because of it and don't know anyone that has. It's just one of those things that happen.

We've always been told to judge it as it arrives. In our CBJ class examples, we had an entry where two ribs were stuck together. We could not pull them apart. We also had chopped brisket on a chopped wilted lettuce bed - the sauced brisket, kept the lettuce... we were told to judge it as it was presented.

BBQchef33
01-24-2008, 09:52 PM
my nickles worth. My long winded mindset.

theres 2 thing in the box. meat and garnish.

What if you find a hair in the box.?? Are you going to eat it and judge that based on taste. No, in my judging class, I was taught to remove the hair, and its at your discretion to DQ/downscore the entry or not.

According to the rules, your not suppose to score the garnish, but human nature makes you do it. A well garnished box looks prettier. Thats all there is to it. But that is on an appearance score.

The rules differentiate between garnish and meat. Garnish must consist of green leafy, parlsey, cilantro, etc... Meat must be ribs, chicken, pork, brisket. There is a HARD and FAST line between the 2.

With the meat, if you include slices and chunks and chopped, all are fair game for sampling, but the garnish is in the same box. Yet we all know the garnish IS NOT there for sampling. No where in the rules does it say to EAT THE GARNISH and score it. If it comes out with a piece of meat, I would not eat it and not score the garnish.

The meat is allowed to have sauce, thats it, NOT Salad. If someone want to get real picky, they can claim that a piece of parsley is in the sauce and its bigger than a "fine dice" as stated in rule 10 and must be downed to a score of 1. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a table captain that would agree with that, or a rep that would uphold it.

Having a piece of garnish stuck to the meat is exactly that.. a piece of garnish.... I know what the garnish is and I know that is not what the cook intended to do. I would not eat the garnish and move on with the MEAT as intended and presented. I would not downscore it.

HoDeDo
01-24-2008, 09:59 PM
Thanks Bob. I can't wait to see what Mike comes back with. I'd be happy to change my judging style if he comes back with something different than I was told in class. He's the top dog in my book on this topic. As it is, I judge it as I get it. 9 times out of 10 if something is stuck to it, it is not where I am going to bite... so a non issue anyway. 8-)


OK, I went above and beyond and sent Mike Lake an email. (below) I'll let everyone know his response.

Some other competitors and I got into a discussion that lead to a judging question.

If garnish gets stuck to a piece of chicken while the judge is taking her/his piece out of the turn in box, should the judge:

a: eat the sample with the garnish on and score based on the taste with the garnish taste
b: eat the sample with the garnish on and score based on the taste without the garnish taste
c: discard the garnish without point reduction and sample
d: discard the garnish with point reduction and sample

Plowboy
01-24-2008, 10:12 PM
Yes, you can get marked down on taste. KCBS states you should judge the meat as presented. You cannot take stuff off of it, pull it apart from another piece, etc. If two pieces stick together, that is how you get it... if it is salad covered, that is how you eat it - etc.



Wow, that's taking things pretty literally on the garnish piece. The two ribs (or only having five for those who can't count) or brisket not being fully sliced (Beam Boys Mod) is a pretty established and well known situation. I gotta say that this is the first time I've ever heard about eating parsley if its stuck to your piece of chicken.

Who taught your CBJ class? I know it was recent. I haven't judged in almost three years, but I have been a judge since 2000 and competing since 2001. Never heard of that garnish/taste rule.

Plowboy
01-24-2008, 10:13 PM
Phil's hair example would have to be a DQ. If a tiny piece of foil found in the box or part of a tooth pick can get you DQ'd, then certainly a hair can.

Mmmmm DQ. Now I want ice cream.

swamprb
01-24-2008, 10:35 PM
OK- Now think this over.
The Parsley beds that I have noticed and judged were just that, meticulously snipped and trimmed bottom layers, upon which HEAVILY sauced Chicken Thighs were laid and filled in with more Parsley. Of course when they were judged on Appearance you could sense the OOHHS and AHHHS, then as they are being passed around, picked out and set on the placemat, you notice or feel people trying to shake it off as its sticking all over each piece by now and you end up with what looks like a "CHIA" thigh!!! Nothing I saw resembled the parsley pics above. It wasn't just "a" piece, it was a matt of it. I watched a guy trimming a flat of parsley on a Saturday and the way he was going at it made me think he'd trimmed his share of bud back in the day, Sunday he got a RGC. I talked to other cooks that said they had tried parsley and tanked that weekend and hadn't used it since.
I still think it looks nice.

slat
01-24-2008, 10:42 PM
If you DQ for a hair then if a piece of garnish comes out then would that not make it a foreign object. It's not supposed to be on the meat. I believe the pulling thing off is meant for like if you see a minced onion and you don't like onions or a pepper or the skin off of chicken.

slat
01-24-2008, 10:48 PM
As Swamprb said above you see people trying to shake off the parsley. The Table Captains and Reps see judges doing this and they don't try to stop them from doing it. So are the Table Captains and Reps not doing their jobs or is it something that is understood not to be judged?

BBQchef33
01-24-2008, 10:52 PM
Pull the skin off the chicken.?? Thats another peeve.. IMO, It should be sampled. Its got all the goodness on it.

But the point i was trying to make is that there are things in the box we just deal with accordingly.

Jeff_in_KC
01-25-2008, 12:28 AM
Andy, are you chittin' me???? If a piece of parsley stuck to a meat sample, in your opinion, it stays on and contributes to the flavor, good or bad??? That's just wrong! It is completely obvious that this is not what cooks intended to do. Dude, I think you need to get a CBJ refresher! :lol:

Is it obvious that this is January in the midwest by the threads? SHEESH!

Plowboy
01-25-2008, 03:22 AM
Pull the skin off the chicken.?? Thats another peeve.. IMO, It should be sampled. Its got all the goodness on it.

But the point i was trying to make is that there are things in the box we just deal with accordingly.

If you DQ for a hair then if a piece of garnish comes out then would that not make it a foreign object. It's not supposed to be on the meat. I believe the pulling thing off is meant for like if you see a minced onion and you don't like onions or a pepper or the skin off of chicken.

The hair is a foreign object in the box. The only thing allowed in the box are meat and garnish defined as leafy green lettuce, curly/flat leaf parsley, or cilantro. Its a DQ to me.

That would be my ruling if I was a rep. Oops, a hair. Just pick it off. Oops, a toothpick. Just pull it out. That doesn't work for me. Its a foreign object. Keep your hair outta your box.

Oh, and its just plain gross. :wink:

Ford
01-25-2008, 05:09 AM
The hair is a foreign object in the box. The only thing allowed in the box are meat and garnish defined as leafy green lettuce, curly/flat leaf parsley, or cilantro. Its a DQ to me.

That would be my ruling if I was a rep. Oops, a hair. Just pick it off. Oops, a toothpick. Just pull it out. That doesn't work for me. Its a foreign object. Keep your hair outta your box.

Oh, and its just plain gross. :wink:
The KCBS has stated that a hair in the box is not grounds for a DQ. The reason is that once that box is habded over to the volunteers it is opened and it's possible for a hair to get in the box at that time. This is a fact people. Foil or a toothpick would have been put in by the team so it is a DQ.

The judging class now should be teaching that a hair is not a DQ and all the Reps know this. However it may influence the judge in his/her taste score. And I believe if a judge refuses to sample an entry for any reason other than raw meat, then it is given a 9 as the score.

And I'm really surprised that a judge would be foolish enough to eat a piece of garnish stuck to the meat. You have a chance to taste some of the best Q ever cooked and you choose to eat parsley instead.

tonto1117
01-25-2008, 05:53 AM
I took my judding class from Mike Lake. This very issue came up in the class....asked by myself. I was told it was fine to pull the piece of parsley off, and then sample the piece of chicken.

scottyd
01-25-2008, 06:43 AM
The Hair could be from a pastry brush? from putting on your sauce or glaze. This is not a DQ area.

YankeeBBQ
01-25-2008, 07:22 AM
Are you talking to me?
If so--serious as a heart attack.

There are folks out there that think garnish is not "scorable" since it is "optional".
Simply wrong.

Those same folks (one of which is a vocal member here) will tell ya that "garnish makes the meat look better", or stuff to that effect.

So, I should give credit for a great looing garnish box, but ignore one that is poorly done??? I think not!

You simply can not have it both ways.

If you elect to use it, it can and will be used in the scoring.

Great garnish should help the scoring somewhere.
Crappy garnish should result in deducts for being crappy.

And, if it sticks to the meat, the cook obviously felt that was fine and it should be judged accordingly.

Simple. Not rocket science.

TIM

You shouldn't be a judge

YankeeBBQ
01-25-2008, 07:31 AM
I have to say Tim is spot on...


Yes, you can get marked down on taste. KCBS states you should judge the meat as presented. You cannot take stuff off of it, pull it apart from another piece, etc. If two pieces stick together, that is how you get it... if it is salad covered, that is how you eat it - etc.



Wow. Not sure what they were thinking... The people at those judging tables were lucky :wink:



We've always been told to judge it as it arrives. In our CBJ class examples, we had an entry where two ribs were stuck together. We could not pull them apart. We also had chopped brisket on a chopped wilted lettuce bed - the sauced brisket, kept the lettuce... we were told to judge it as it was presented.

I think your taking the instructions a little too literally. Once you get the sample on your plate you can do with it what you want. You can seperate those two ribs or two pieces of brisket, if not you would have to shove the whole sample in your mouth. You don't do that do you ?

Plowboy
01-25-2008, 07:54 AM
Thanks for clarifying the hair.

Wow, we need get cooking instead of splitting hairs. I know I'm ready.

Plowboy
01-25-2008, 07:55 AM
The Hair could be from a pastry brush? from putting on your sauce or glaze. This is not a DQ area.

I'm kinda surprised that Phil's brisket pants haven't made it into this conversation yet.

BBQchef33
01-25-2008, 08:30 AM
I'm kinda surprised that Phil's brisket pants haven't made it into this conversation yet.

For the record. Brisket pants were a DQ. We were late because of it. (Actually, we were just farking around to much in general).

RE: the hair.

If I remember correctly, We were told in our class its our choice how to handle it( a hair), but its 'encouraged' to just remove it and move on because it can come from anywhere after the box is opened. Personally, i would just remove it and not slam the cook for it. So to me its a non issue.

Basting brush is a different issue. Its pretty easy to differentiate a hair from a pastry brush bristle(most of the time). Personally, i would be able to overlook the hair more so than the pastry brush. A brush bristle is obviously the fault of the cook. The hair can come from anywhere, and face it, as gross as it is, they are a fact of life. As long as people are preparing the food, a hair may wind up in there. Someone somewhere right now has a hair in their breakfast, but not a brush bristle.

I would need to look up again how to handle a bristle officially, because after all this chatter, i'm not 100% sure what they said to do. I thought(pretty sure) a hair was was discretionary. But for a bristle, right now if i was sitting at a table, i would bring it to the attention of the table captain and maybe down score the appearance unless i was told to ignore it or DQ(or give a 1). I need to ask jerry about this one.

BTW.. If anyone every got a hair in one of my boxes, keep in mind it DEFINATLEY did not come from ME, I got as much hair as this thing-> :mrgreen:

Back on topic. Parlsey is garnish and ya don't eat garnish unless your a vegan. :tongue:

KC_Bobby
01-25-2008, 08:38 AM
Yeah, what's this hair thing? I kind of remember having it in high school.

Jeff_in_KC
01-25-2008, 08:57 AM
As long as the hair is longer and straight, I'm ok with just picking it off and continuing. If, however, it is NOT long and straight... :shock:

DawgPhan
01-25-2008, 09:11 AM
I would be more concerned that a judge wuold wipe off my piece of chicken or ribs with a napkin to get the excess garnish off and then wouldnt be judging the entry that I really wanted him to...like the person above who said that he got boxes of finely trimmed parsley and that saucy chicken was laid on top and folks needed to wipe the sauce and parsley off with a napkin. I wouldnt worry about a judge or two that is going to eat it and score me down for it. I stick to me lettuce and parsley boxes for now...

KC_Bobby
01-25-2008, 09:14 AM
I competitor could always do the parsley bed and serve each the thighs on a piece of iceburg. :biggrin:

Transformer BBQ
01-25-2008, 09:32 AM
I'm just wondering how you determine that the parsley ended up on there because of something the competitor did... maybe the table captain moved the box a little, maybe the judge picked up the parsely when he took the entry. Its not exacly Operation when your taking pulled pork out of a box.

With a big enough handful I could take lettuce out of the box too.

I am a little confused about the comments that people want good garnish to count and bad garnish not too. I think that's getting mixed up with people who say 'no garnish should not detract from my scores"... I have never heard anyone say... if I put a bunch of dead greens in the box the judges shoudl ignore them...

I think its strange people get caught up on judges who break up chicken with their hands when judging. When 6 judges are at a table pulling brisket apart no one has a problem with it... or people squeezing p. pork or ribs...

Plowboy
01-25-2008, 09:52 AM
Back on topic. Parlsey is garnish and ya don't eat garnish unless your a vegan. :tongue:

LMAO - What if a vegan found meat attached to their parsley in a garnish contest? Is that a DQ?

tonto1117
01-25-2008, 10:51 AM
LMAO - What if a vegan found meat attached to their parsley in a garnish contest? Is that a DQ?

Don't laugh too hard, at my judging class we had a young woman behind me that asked "do I have to taste the pork....I really don't like pork":eek::eek:

Have never seen Mike Lake at a loss for words before....but he recoverd quickly.:wink:

KC_Bobby
01-25-2008, 11:23 AM
My next words would have been something like - Thanks for coming, there's the door.

tonto1117
01-25-2008, 11:27 AM
My next words would have been something like - Thanks for coming, there's the door.

It basically was....just a bit more tactfull. Somthing like " Well then I don't think this BBQ judging is somthing for you"

BBQchef33
01-25-2008, 12:04 PM
not to get off topic, but while judging one event, the girl next to me asked for white meat when the bird box was all thighs, stating she hates the dark meat. She was told that we don't have choices unless the box contains both. She did not want to eat the thigh and was visibly 'grossed out'. She pretended to taste the entry with a tiny little bites, also removing the skin.

i quietly brought it up to the attention of the table captain. Who said her scores were not detrimental to the scoring(guess she scored with decent numbers). Problem was, this judge was the daughter of either a master judge(or the rep?) and was allowed to stay. She got the spot as a fill in for an empty judges seat.. (just made the age requirment of 16. )


BTW... Parsley is still garnish.

lunchlady
01-25-2008, 01:30 PM
... "And I believe if a judge refuses to sample an entry for any reason other than raw meat, then it is given a 9 as the score"...

Is that really true??? I don't see that as being quite right. How can they give it a 9 when they didn't try it?
That same thing did happen to someone I was sitting next to at a judging table. That person was given the option, by the Rep I believe, to eat or NOT eat the entry which had obviously human hair on it. The judge chose not to eat the entry, grossed out, but I don't remember what the instruction was on how to score it.

Sledneck
01-25-2008, 01:47 PM
I think Tim has a valid point. The rules dont clearly state it

Bbq Bubba
01-25-2008, 01:57 PM
Don't laugh too hard, at my judging class we had a young woman behind me that asked "do I have to taste the pork....I really don't like pork":eek::eek:

Have never seen Mike Lake at a loss for words before....but he recoverd quickly.:wink:

It basically was....just a bit more tactfull. Somthing like " Well then I don't think this BBQ judging is somthing for you"

I do believe this was the promoter's daughter!!! :eek::confused::mad:

Lakeside Smoker
01-25-2008, 02:19 PM
I think Tim has a valid point. The rules dont clearly state it

The rules also don't clearly state not to eat a rib bone...

Come on guys this is crazy! If parsley gets stuck to the meat pick the parsley off. It's that simple. No rule interpretation needed.

Mike
CBJ #12760

Sledneck
01-25-2008, 02:23 PM
The rules also don't clearly state not to eat a rib bone...

Come on guys this is crazy! If parsley gets stuck to the meat pick the parsley off. It's that simple. No rule interpretation needed.

Mike
CBJ #12760You discard the bones? What a waste

Transformer BBQ
01-25-2008, 02:24 PM
... "And I believe if a judge refuses to sample an entry for any reason other than raw meat, then it is given a 9 as the score"...

Is that really true??? I don't see that as being quite right. How can they give it a 9 when they didn't try it?
That same thing did happen to someone I was sitting next to at a judging table. That person was given the option, by the Rep I believe, to eat or NOT eat the entry which had obviously human hair on it. The judge chose not to eat the entry, grossed out, but I don't remember what the instruction was on how to score it.


I don't think this is true. At my judging class there was a guy who was allergic to chicken. They said in this case the table captian my be used to fill in for that category...

BBQchef33
01-25-2008, 02:35 PM
I just hung up the phone with Linda Mullane. (CBJ Instructors).

Heres the answers in a nutshell. these came directly from Linda. I quote the best I can withthe notes I took. I asked her to stop in tonight to clarify.

Hair:
NO DQ, Used to be, but no longer. Your allowed/encouraged to remove the hair and continue on.
You can switch the sample if there are extras in the box.
you can flat out refuse to eat it as inedible and score no lower than a 2.
You can find a replacement judge for that sample.Brush Bristle.
NO DQ.
No discretion it must be removed. it is not considered rendering the piece inedible.
Its not considered a foreign object and the piece must be sampled and judged without the bristle.Parsley: This is specifically about a PIECE OF GARNISH stuck or attached that can be removed. This does NOT include a "taste" from the garnish due to steaming or coming in contact with the meat that is now part of the flavor profile.
If its on the meat, its not a DQ and not a foreign Object
Its a meat contest not a garnish contest. Garnish is not part of the meat. If it comes out with the meat, it should be removed or not sampled or included in judging.
If a low score was discovered by the rep it would be questioned and if determined that the garnish was judged, the judge would likely be a counciled.
If a judge down scores because of voluntarily eating the garnish although it is the judges discretion to do so, it should NOT BE DONE.** Many times, she has had people ask if they can remove and eat some garnish. This is allowed. But it is not included in the scores.

KC_Bobby
01-25-2008, 03:23 PM
Isn't that what we've (most all of us) been saying? :biggrin:

DawgPhan
01-25-2008, 03:43 PM
And still doesnt really cover how the parsley or garnish should be removed from the meat. Removing it could mean tweezers and gently removing the garnish or it could mean taking a napkin and wiping all the sauce off...wiping the sauce off could greatly affect the score.

Transformer BBQ
01-25-2008, 03:45 PM
And still doesnt really cover how the parsley or garnish should be removed from the meat. Removing it could mean tweezers and gently removing the garnish or it could mean taking a napkin and wiping all the sauce off...wiping the sauce off could greatly affect the score.


Could always just take a bite where there isn't garnish...

Pig Headed
01-25-2008, 04:10 PM
Could always just take a bite where there isn't garnish...

I couldn't agree with you more. Surprised this obvious solution hasn't been mentioned more.

KC_Bobby
01-25-2008, 04:18 PM
And still doesnt really cover how the parsley or garnish should be removed from the meat. Removing it could mean tweezers and gently removing the garnish or it could mean taking a napkin and wiping all the sauce off...wiping the sauce off could greatly affect the score.

While true, I wish I had a nickel for everytime the instructor told us that BBQ is a finger food. Utensils are only to be used to take your sample out of the turn in box and napkins are to be used between samples to clean your hands and face between samples.

BBQchef33
01-25-2008, 04:24 PM
Isn't that what we've (most all of us) been saying? :biggrin:

just wanted to put up an 'quasiofficial' word directly from a CBJ instructor.


And still doesnt really cover how the parsley or garnish should be removed from the meat. Removing it could mean tweezers and gently removing the garnish or it could mean taking a napkin and wiping all the sauce off...wiping the sauce off could greatly affect the score.

I think it means pull the piece of parsley off with your fingers and remove it. Appearance scores are already done, and i doubt a piece of parsley is gonna pull off any substantial amount of sauce/seasoning.

Its BBQ Judging...... PLAY WITH YOUR FOOD!!!! :razz::razz::razz:

Then lick your fingers. :mrgreen:

KC_Bobby
01-25-2008, 04:27 PM
Here's what I've learned from this thread:

1) Common sense isn't so common
2) see #1

:rolleyes::eek::rolleyes::eek::rolleyes::eek::roll eyes::eek::rolleyes::eek::rolleyes::eek::rolleyes: :eek:

Jeff Hughes
01-25-2008, 04:42 PM
Here's what I've learned from this thread:

1) Common sense isn't so common
2) see #1


No kidding...

TOPS BBQ
01-25-2008, 06:30 PM
Okay Jason F. here is a pic of chicken with all parsley. This was from Clovis (15th place) I took 4th in Fairfield with this same presentation.

We'll collaborate more at Backyard at the Lake.

Jeff Hughes
01-25-2008, 07:22 PM
nice looking...

eagle697
01-25-2008, 07:31 PM
i am fairly new to this, but is this about the color chicken should be? Every time i have done it it turns out much darker than this.

HoDeDo
01-25-2008, 09:38 PM
Thanks Bob. I can't wait to see what Mike comes back with. I'd be happy to change my judging style if he comes back with something different than I was told in class. He's the top dog in my book on this topic. As it is, I judge it as I get it. 9 times out of 10 if something is stuck to it, it is not where I am going to bite... so a non issue anyway. 8-)

Based on Linda's input - I'll ensure I remove it; Todd/Jeff - note I said I'd be happy adjust my judging. I have only judged two contests; but Cooking over 100+, it has never come up as an issue - until it was mentioned at CBJ class. A "literal" answer is what I heard. Now that I know it was incorrect, it will be a non issue 10 out of 10 times, instead of just the 9 out of 10 I noted:eusa_clap

I couldn't agree with you more. Surprised this obvious solution hasn't been mentioned more. I did mention it - see above! :-D

i am fairly new to this, but is this about the color chicken should be? Every time i have done it it turns out much darker than this. My chicken is usually much darker than that. See pic below - that was my GAB 1st Place Chicken box.
12772

Plowboy
01-25-2008, 09:46 PM
With chicken like that, you get one of these...

http://plowboysbbq.com///mnt/w0511/d40/s41/a000u8ap/www/plowboysbbq///wp-content/uploads/2007/05/T&A.JPG

Wow, I've gained weight since the GAB. :icon_smil

swamprb
01-25-2008, 11:08 PM
OK- Tops and Andy! Do you just fill around the edges of the box and between the thighs?

The boxes I've encountered had beds of Parsley on the bottom, and they were trimmed tight, no stem, almost all leaf. I'm not whining about picking off a piece of garnish, these were pasted to the thighs when picked out. It had to be wiped off.

BTW - those are very nice looking turn ins!

Yakfishingfool
01-26-2008, 07:13 AM
Brisket pants....my eyes still tear at the thought.

I've only been competing this year, but the time and intesity that everyone puts into this sport/hobby, the judges should be optimisitic not pessimistic in their scoring. Parsley appears to be a necessary evil and my head still aches after trimming parsley :)

Jeff_in_KC
01-26-2008, 11:39 AM
OK- Tops and Andy! Do you just fill around the edges of the box and between the thighs?

The boxes I've encountered had beds of Parsley on the bottom, and they were trimmed tight, no stem, almost all leaf. I'm not whining about picking off a piece of garnish, these were pasted to the thighs when picked out. It had to be wiped off.

BTW - those are very nice looking turn ins!

I doubt there was no stem. May have seemed that way but the way you do it is you chop green leaf lettuce up and put a layer in the bottom of the box then use that to poke your parsley stems down into to hold them in place. We do not start poking extra parsley in so that it covers any of the meat between pieces either. Might need to put a few in for the purpose of filling in small gaps made by placing the meat on top of the bed though. I'd post a photo of our chicken boxes as we altered and began using late in '07 to rebound from a bad bird year but then I'd just hafta kill ya! :lol::wink:

HoDeDo
01-26-2008, 12:47 PM
OK- Tops and Andy! Do you just fill around the edges of the box and between the thighs?

The boxes I've encountered had beds of Parsley on the bottom, and they were trimmed tight, no stem, almost all leaf. I'm not whining about picking off a piece of garnish, these were pasted to the thighs when picked out. It had to be wiped off.

BTW - those are very nice looking turn ins!

Trimmed lettuce, with short stems... to keep them in the box and off the meat. Kim has taken over doing the boxes, so she has it down to an art. You'd be more than welcome to watch the process if you make it to any midwest comps.

All I can say is... take out a 9" styrofoam tray, and practice at home. try different variations, and see what you like best.

Ford
01-26-2008, 01:19 PM
I doubt there was no stem. May have seemed that way but the way you do it is you chop green leaf lettuce up and put a layer in the bottom of the box then use that to poke your parsley stems down into to hold them in place. We do not start poking extra parsley in so that it covers any of the meat between pieces either. Might need to put a few in for the purpose of filling in small gaps made by placing the meat on top of the bed though. I'd post a photo of our chicken boxes as we altered and began using late in '07 to rebound from a bad bird year but then I'd just hafta kill ya! :lol::wink:
That would be the way Steph taught me back in 2006. Seems like a lot of other cooks doing classes do the same thing. We do the same thing. For others her's another little tip on parsley boxes. Think 300 or more individual stems in one box.

The idea is to lay the pieces of chicken on top of the parsley so that they sink in slightly and the judges can see the sides as well as the top when it's presented. Makes the meat jump out more. So the parsley is trimmed so the piece is about an inch long and it only has one head on it. Bad form to try to get 3 end stems on one piece although it's a lot easier. And pack them tight.

swamprb
01-26-2008, 05:22 PM
These were my first comp turn ins. I spent what I thought was a good deal of time picking out my lettuce and parsley from a farm stand, prepared my boxes the night before so I wouldn't be rushed. I tried to add parsley to fill in some spots but it looked out of place so I bagged it. I'm always studying others pics and know I need to work on this so if anyone cares to give me some feedback I'd appreciate it!

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Alki/100_2020.jpg
8-6-6 8-9-9 9-5-6 8-8-8 9-8-7 8-9-9 19th place


http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Alki/100_2019.jpg
7-9-8 8-9-9 5-6-7 6-8-5 7-9-8 9-9-7 20th Place

KC_Bobby
01-26-2008, 06:28 PM
Even with the sauce smudge, that chicken is way better looking than a 5 -IMO

eagle697
01-27-2008, 10:44 AM
i have gotten some great ideas from everyone in this thread, but have a few questions. several people mentioned using a bed of chopped lettuce as a base to stick the stems of the parsley into. How exactly is this done? do you do this all over the bed and then up on the side? ALso, this may be a dumb question but i am assuming you are all talking about using flat-leaf parsley. Is this a safe assumption?

Jeff_in_KC
01-27-2008, 01:44 PM
i have gotten some great ideas from everyone in this thread, but have a few questions. several people mentioned using a bed of chopped lettuce as a base to stick the stems of the parsley into. How exactly is this done? do you do this all over the bed and then up on the side? ALso, this may be a dumb question but i am assuming you are all talking about using flat-leaf parsley. Is this a safe assumption?

Chris, in this method, you don't need or want it to go up the sides, so to speak. You want your meat to mostly be perched on top of this parsley bed but not so high to be touching the lid when the box is closed. Just put a thin layer of chopped lettuce (we just bunch up the leaf lettuce and cut across it, making strips, then chop the strips a bit. I'd guess around a half inch or so. Spread it out around the entire botton of the box and start working on yout parsley "planting" from one corner, outwade to the opposite corner. Remember to save your best looking parsley for edges and corners as the stuff in the middle will be almost entirely covered anyway. I know a couple of teams that just leave the chopped lettuce in the center and only put parsley around the edges because of this. We just prefer the parsley putting green. :wink:

The_Kapn
01-27-2008, 04:57 PM
Even with the sauce smudge, that chicken is way better looking than a 5 -IMO

Very true.

How about a score/number?

TIM

Mitchelina
01-28-2008, 11:10 AM
Here's what I've learned from this thread - Jeff is right. We should all be subject to a CBJ refresher every few years. I took my class with Ed Roith and he was very clear about the garnish issue and the hair issue and the pieces not cut apart problem and all these other things we've talked about. The only thing I'd question is a basting brush bristle. To me, that's a foreign object. But if my table captain said no I'd pick it off and eat.

Yes you eat the skin. Yes I find it gross. But you are required to at least taste it.

And if I was allergic, didn't like something or otherwise whined about eating anything at a competition that was properly cooked, I'd expect to get pitched out on my pork butt. As a cook and CBJ I take this scoring stuff seriously and have a great appreciation for the work that goes in to it. I judge the way I'd wanting to be judged -- as fairly and objectively as possible and according to the rules.

On that note, I see very few people carry their CBJ booklets in to a comp, even to be signed. I find it very helpful to flip through and do a quick review of the rules since we don't judge as often as we cook. Dorky? Maybe. But at least when I leave I feel I've done my best.

Sawdustguy
01-28-2008, 11:21 AM
Here's what I've learned from this thread - Jeff is right. We should all be subject to a CBJ refresher every few years. I took my class with Ed Roith and he was very clear about the garnish issue and the hair issue and the pieces not cut apart problem and all these other things we've talked about. The only thing I'd question is a basting brush bristle. To me, that's a foreign object. But if my table captain said no I'd pick it off and eat.

Yes you eat the skin. Yes I find it gross. But you are required to at least taste it.

And if I was allergic, didn't like something or otherwise whined about eating anything at a competition that was properly cooked, I'd expect to get pitched out on my pork butt. As a cook and CBJ I take this scoring stuff seriously and have a great appreciation for the work that goes in to it. I judge the way I'd wanting to be judged -- as fairly and objectively as possible and according to the rules.

On that note, I see very few people carry their CBJ booklets in to a comp, even to be signed. I find it very helpful to flip through and do a quick review of the rules since we don't judge as often as we cook. Dorky? Maybe. But at least when I leave I feel I've done my best.

God Job! I don't think as cooks that we could ask for anything more.

TOPS BBQ
01-28-2008, 11:55 AM
OK- Tops and Andy! Do you just fill around the edges of the box and between the thighs?

The boxes I've encountered had beds of Parsley on the bottom, and they were trimmed tight, no stem, almost all leaf. I'm not whining about picking off a piece of garnish, these were pasted to the thighs when picked out. It had to be wiped off.

BTW - those are very nice looking turn ins!

Thanks for the kuddos.

We take the throw away bottom pieces of lettuce and lay them on the bottom to perch up the meats. We then fill in the sides and anywhere there are large gaps. They are good to keep the food from tilting while delivering the boxes to the turn-in tents.

As for the parsely size; we try to have parsely with decent stem lenghts (break off bottom leaves) so that you can poke and secure them nice and deep. If you just cut the tops off, you'll have problems if you have to adjust the meats.

KC_Bobby
01-28-2008, 01:24 PM
Mitchelina, I don't think it's dorky - I commend you. And I agree more of an emphisis should be put on judges refreshing themselves - REMEMBER all CBJ's (are invited to attend CBJ classes at no cost).

KC_Bobby
01-28-2008, 07:36 PM
Hello my name is Bob, a KCBS member and CBJ from the Kansas City area.

Some other competitors and I got into a discussion that lead to a judging question.

If garnish gets stuck to a piece of chicken while the judge is taking her/his piece out of the turn in box, should the judge:

a: eat the sample with the garnish on and score based on the taste with the garnish taste
b: eat the sample with the garnish on and score based on the taste without the garnish taste
c: discard the garnish without point reduction
d: discard the garnish with point reduction

Reply from Mike Lake:

Bob:
Assuming that the garnish is legal. I think the obvious answer is
C. It would be up to the judge. Certainly any point reduction would not be in order.
Thanks for your interest.
Mike Lake

Jeff_in_KC
01-28-2008, 07:57 PM
Thanks for the kuddos.

We take the throw away bottom pieces of lettuce and lay them on the bottom to perch up the meats. We then fill in the sides and anywhere there are large gaps. They are good to keep the food from tilting while delivering the boxes to the turn-in tents.

I hear that core at the bottom is good for that! :shock::twisted:

The_Kapn
01-29-2008, 02:40 PM
Okie Dokie, I will tweak my process a bit.

If the entry has a few large pieces attached, I will continue to remove them and proceed. Nothing different there, always done it that way. A common thing, especially with Parsley.

The other extreme is those entries with chopped garnish embedded into the entry. The garnish covers the entire bottom of the entry and is mixed well with the sauce used. For those, I will just take a paper towel and remove the attached garnish thoroughly.
That will assure that the taste is not tarnished by the garnish.
Easey Peasey.

Interesting thread to see where everyone is coming from. :lol:

TIM