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River City Smokehouse
01-22-2008, 04:33 PM
Since the issue of 'parboiling' came into play at the rules meeting, it has brought a question to mind. What is the definition of parboiling that is being used?
Makes me wonder if putting ribs in a foil pan soaking in apple juice and placed in the smoker be considered parboiling if the liquid never actually boiled. Say the temp only got to 208* instead of 210-212*. Wouldn't that actually be poaching then? Is poaching (not in the hunting sense) legal?

I know this is pretty anal but you remember Bill Clinton had two definitions of the word 'the'.

Bbq Bubba
01-22-2008, 04:52 PM
Well, this would be my definition of Par Boiling........................

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8303/bbqribs1yv4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Wizards of 'Que
01-22-2008, 04:55 PM
The thing I've never figured out is why parboiling is illegal, but steaming is legal.

BBQchef33
01-22-2008, 08:09 PM
parboiling is partial cooking fully submerged in liquid. So i would thing boiling or poachin in applejuice is parboiling and not legal.

Then again, it was asked at that meeting, if the liquid is a pan full of butter and you cook chicken in it is it parboiling? the answer was no....as long as its not fully submerged, so i then said is it 'frying"...... answer? no because the temps are too low.... but i can get the temps UP high enough to boil/saute in butter, over coals, is that legal?

The potential can of worms was huge on that question. They alloted a few minutes per question so they just moved on.



River City.. you were there??

Transformer BBQ
01-22-2008, 08:29 PM
the definition also includes... partial cooking. So if for whatever reason you cooked your entry entirely in a liquid... you aren't really breaking the rule.

again, can of worms... but since we take everything else to the letter, then technically its legal.

jminion
01-22-2008, 08:56 PM
There are rules that were not well thought out in my opinion. Parboiling is one, deep frying is another, how does a Rep know to be able to make the call? As we know you can grill chicken and it look fried. As far as that goes frying is not illegal (deep frying is).

The Pigman
01-23-2008, 12:22 AM
I know why I dont parboil you take the flavor out of the meat and put it in the water to go down the drain.....................

The thing I've never figured out is why parboiling is illegal, but steaming is legal.

River City Smokehouse
01-23-2008, 06:53 AM
parboiling is partial cooking fully submerged in liquid. So i would thing boiling or poachin in applejuice is parboiling and not legal.

Then again, it was asked at that meeting, if the liquid is a pan full of butter and you cook chicken in it is it parboiling? the answer was no....as long as its not fully submerged, so i then said is it 'frying"...... answer? no because the temps are too low.... but i can get the temps UP high enough to boil/saute in butter, over coals, is that legal?

The potential can of worms was huge on that question. They alloted a few minutes per question so they just moved on.



River City.. you were there??
Phil: I was not at the meeting. I would like to have been there but I was in Wichita, KS for three days and missed everything. This was just something that came to mind since I had been reading about the meeting and saw that parboiling came up. I noticed like Jim Minion said that there are some rules with BIG holes.

Juggy D Beerman
01-23-2008, 07:11 AM
With all due respect to my friend Jim Minion, I disagree with his statement that the parboiling and deep frying rules were not very well thought out. They may not be worded specificly, but they are very well thought out. I say that with prejudice because I am the person who advocated these two rules at the annual KCBS rules meeting years ago. Yes, I am that person who made this mess. I didn't write the words to these rules, but I will spell out to everyone the intentions I had when I presented my arguments to the rules committee.

I'll address the deep frying issue first. Although the rules state "DEEP frying", it was my intent to eliminate frying of ANY type. I'll be frank here. Frying meat is NOT barbecue and it has never been a traditional step of the BBQing process. We aren't at a cooking contest, it isn't a baking contest and it isn't a frying contest. It is a BARBECUE contest.

I agree with Jim that the rule is poorly written. Perhaps the reason the word, "deep" appears in the rule is this. When I made my proposal at the rules meeting, I pointed out the safety hazards of deep frying meats over a charcoal/wood burning fire. Delete the word, "deep" from the wording of the rule, and most of the loopholes people keep searching for are eliminated.

As for the parboiling issue, I thought that was pretty much cut and dry. My connotation of the definition of the word when I presented my proposal at the rules committee was the same as the one as listed in the dictionary. Webster defines parboiling as, "To boil (meat or vegetables) until partially cooked , as in preparation for roasting, etc."

Although parboiling something such as ribs may have been one of the traditional cooking processes of BBQ, how many people here advocate parboiling as a legitimate step in the barbecueing process? By parboiling, I mean completely submerging a slab of ribs in a pot of boiling water and partially cooking them BEFORE cooking them on the grill or smoker. I am not referring to the exceptions to the rule such as braising or poaching. These are steps completely different from the dictionary definition of parboiling.

I really caught some flack from folks over getting the parboilng rule passed and I never expected it. I have seen a lot of arguments over the years on the various ways to cook meats and which cooker is best. ALL sorts of arguments. In the nine years I have been reading various internet BBQ forums, the ONE thing I have seen 99% of the posters agree on is parboiling is not a part of the BBQ process. I never in my wildest dreams thought that this rule would upset so many people who would never advocate parboiling in the first place.

My reasoning for advocating these rules were concerned with not only safety, but for the tradition and education goals as described in the KCBS mission statement. Both cooking methods of parboiling and frying are contrary to what the KCBS is trying to promote.

So let the flames begin. I've been burned by this before so it won't hurt as bad this time. Heck of a way to make my first post.............

Beers,

Juggy D Beerman

Ford
01-23-2008, 07:23 AM
Welcome Juggy. I was also at that rules meeting where this was discussed. Let's add a little history here for those that don't know THE REST OF THE STORY.

Once upon a time at the Royal there was a cook named Big Moe from Kalamazoo MI who had been accused of cheating in Michigan as he didn't light his fire until about 7 am on Saturday and took some walks. So at the Royal he's right across from JDB and he doesn't show up until 7 and JDB has the reps primed to watch him and they re-inspect his meats and it's all raw. So Moe fires up the pit and gets a roaring fire going then puts on a huge vat of sauce and tosses all his meat into it. JDB watches him like a hawk but that's it. At the awards a brisket simmered in sauce finished ahead of a wonderful brisket cooked for 18 hours by ... well you can guess the rest.

Immersing raw meat in a liquid to partial cook it is par boiling. If you leave it in the liquid to finish it's still technically par boiling as it's raw meat immersed in liquid. Putting partly cooked meat in a liquid is not parboiling and is legal. So jumpin Jim's chicken is sure legal. And butter is not a liquid but that's for another post.

Hope you hang around here some Juggy. It's a fun place.

Ford
01-23-2008, 08:04 AM
Mike and Johnny are teaching classes and people are learning how they do bite thru, tender juicy chicken and those people are winning (I had 1st, 2nd, 1st and 6th with this method in 5 contests this year). It uses a half size steam pan and one 12 oz cold squeeze bottle margarine (different brands). Now there's a lot more to it but it goes into the cooker in the pan and people think that's cheating and want to outlaw it so they wanted to say it's parboiling. Obviously for a number of reasons it isn't. First the meat is not immersed in liquid as there's barely enough to cover the bottom of the pan. Then is not a liquid after sitting in a cooler all night it's actually pretty solid when it goes into the pan. Now if you use 15% solution Tyson chicken when you go to cover it, there's chicken juice in the pan as well as butter but meat cooking in it's own juice is legal. At this point I cover it but by then the meat is already cooked as it's well above 150F.

Bottom line is they wanted to outlaw this method of cooking chicken.

Juggy D Beerman
01-23-2008, 09:00 AM
Well now I know the rest of the story, Ford. I did not know the motive behind the new controversy. I am out of the loop so I didn't even know there was another controversy over parboiling......

Back to that incident at the AR, what you wrote pretty much sums it up. I just want to add that it was closer to 8:00 a.m. than 7:00. And I did have a partner in crime in this incident. My partner was on the BoD and rep qualified. He was the one who located the AR contest rep and Carolyn Wells to do the meat inspection. It just so happened that my partner was a contestant at the Michigan contest and witnessed Moe's questionable cooking methods. His motives for that shakedown on Moe were probably more personal than mine.

During the meat inspection, the AR rep asked the team how they were going to get a pork butt, brisket, and ribs done in three to four hours. (It was now after 8:00 and they didn't have a fire started.) They replied that they were going to parboil their meats. Carolyn said that as long as they did this over a wood/charcoal fire, there was nothing in the rules that prohibited this.

That was the same thing Carolyn told me and my "partner". She then said that she didn't agree with this style of cooking, but that is there was nothing in the rules to prevent it. That is when that light bulb went off in my head...........

After the contest, I took a lot of good natured ribbing from folks over getting beat in brisket at the AR by a guy who turned in a boiled brisket. That was the catylist behind my motive to add the parboiling rule. I'll be honest here. I have always been against parboiling meat either has a cooking method to be used at home or at a contest. If it had not been for Big Moe and his boiled brisket, I never would have gotten off my fat butt and pushed for this rule. Parboiling ain't barbecue, it is faux que.

That method of cooking chicken that you describe isn't what I would define as parboiling. It is not what I would call a traditional way of cooking chicken on the grill or smoker, but it is obviously successful and under KCBS rules, completely legal. And I mean that in a nice manner. It isn't that much different than the Jumpin' Jim recipe is it?

Lager,

Juggy

Wizards of 'Que
01-23-2008, 10:15 AM
I just can't see the why parboiling is an afront to BBQ than steaming or boiling chicken in its own juice.

jminion
01-23-2008, 11:38 AM
Juggy
I don't have any problem with members bring things to the rules committee for consideration. My problem with the two rules in question is how they are worded and how as a Rep are you to enforce them, that was a Rule committee and Board function to make it work.

Jim

River City Smokehouse
01-23-2008, 11:43 AM
Juggy
I don't have any problem with members bring things to the rules committee for consideration. My problem with the two rules in question is how they are worded and how as a Rep are you to enforce them, that was a Rule committee and Board function to make it work.

Jim
You'd think the wording would not put a rep in the position of having to make that judgement. It should be plainly stated with no grey areas. I'm sure in the future it will come about.

Rockaway BeachBQ
01-23-2008, 02:10 PM
I see a day in the not so far off far off future where Competition Barbecue will have to be strictly limited to meats cooked unwrapped and uncovered with a rub and optionally sauce. Maybe a new sanctioning body should be formed, because as a professional cook and competition barbecuer I see no reason why braising, frying, steaming or any other cooking style is allowed in a Barbecue contest. And yes I do mean the elimination of foil inside the cooker. If you want to wrap your meat and hold it in a cooler that is fine, but Barbecue contests should be just as much about the cooking process as the result. Everyone should be cooking in one manner so that there is an even playing field, instead of having to worry that one team has interpreted the rules in such a way that they show up with a pressurized steamer that is wood fired (I know I am a little off the deep end with that one, but it is still possible). Contestants need to focus on turning in the best grilled or traditionally barbecued meat as possible and not the best possible preparation that may barely satisfy KCBS rules and may not even taste like Barbecue.