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Jeff_in_KC
01-20-2008, 08:54 PM
Yes, that's the phrase added onto the end of MMA Creative's CEO and President Mike McCloud's speech to the 370 or so KCBS members in attendance at the annual KCBS banquet in Kansas City last night. In his message to members, McCloud stated "Change is coming... whether you like it or not." Question is... do YOU like it? How do YOU feel being told your opinion doesn't matter? That they're going to do their thing whether YOU like it or not?

My opinion matters because I paid my membership dues. I've voted for three years running now (for FOUR candidates each time, not just one). And we're paying our sanctioning fees to KCBS for our contest here. And my opinion is that MMA Creative is forcing its views of how things should be right down my throat, your throat and the throats of the staff and Board of Directors at KCBS. My question is WHO IS RUNNING WHO? Do Carolyn and the Board of Directors not ultimately make the decisions? Why does McCloud walk around these events like some damned politician with a sneering grin on his face like the fox who just got the chicken?

Rewind to the Organizer's Roundtable only hours before McCloud made his forceful and disrespectful comment at the banquet. In the Roundtable, the issue of what the benefits to being in KCBS are came up. Instead of answering that, the mic was handed to McCloud who said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that we aren't going to discuss that right now but rather he wanted to focus on something else. He was pressed a second time by an organizer and repeated the same thing. Why not answer the question, Mr. McCloud? It seems like a perfectly logical time to do so given the fact that it wasn't the organizers who brought up this issue. It was someone at the front of the room facing us, the organizers. What are you hiding? Are there not REALLY as many benefits to the members as you say are coming soon? What's the real story.

During the speech at the banquet last night and if memory serves, also at the roundtable, McCloud spoke of KCBS eventually adding monetary prizes to the Team of the Year winners and how we are like NASCAR and on and on. I've thought about this a lot this afternoon and evening and what I've decided in my mind is that we are not at all like NASCAR. KC Bobby made the comment in another thread that keeps coming back to my mind: "somewhere along the line someone forgot that KCBS is a 501(c)3". NASCAR is not a non-profit. There are a very profitable FOR profit organization. My opinion is that McCloud's group is a snake in the grass and they're eventually leading KCBS away from the non-profit sanctioning body into a big business. I have no idea whether KCBS made a pay forjust working agreement with MMA or if they get paid for results. I'd like to know. Seems to me, MMA sees an organization with money to spend and they're seeing dollar signs in their eyes. I hope that Carolyn and the Board of Directors are not being taken advantage of by some slick outfit who's sweet talked them into something that ultimately will destroy KCBS as we know it.

I enjoy the new Web site and some of the things that will eventually be on it and those that are now on it. But at what cost is this new tool?

The new point system is interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing how it works but unless you cook 20 or more contests a year, you won't have an opportunity to take the walk during TOY announcements in January ever again.

I doubt I will attend the banquet in 2009. They're basically taking it away from Stephanie, who has done a fantastic job all these years putting it on, and having MMA say what happens and it started this year. In the past, we've taken the time to enjoy the drawings for door prizes and all the free contest entries. We got to applaud the winners as they went up to get their items and laugh at the fun comments that occasionally got yelled out by winner's friends. it was long but it was fun and the drawings were done right there. This year, however, all that was gone. The drawings were pre-drawn in another room and the names were read off quickly and unceremoniously. Afterwards, winners went out to the hallway to claim whatever prize they had won. Then the hired band came in to play from 9 to 11 pm. HOWEVER...I applaud the efforts of two prominent KCBS members who took the initiative to start up a campaign to pass the word around that after the last award was given and the band took the stage that we all get up and leave and go to our parties and such. And it HAPPENED! Within minutes, almost everyone was up and heading out or at least milling around visiting with friends before moving on. We estimated that less than 20% of the crowd stayed for the band and from what word made it up to one of our parties afterwards, the band played one set only, packed up and left.

During the Organizer's Roundtable, Mr. McCloud made the comment that he's seen a lot and learned a lot from being in Kansas City this weekend. Mr. McCloud, I hope you've learned something of value. I hope you've learned that we're all important and we all have voices. And if things aren't going as us members like, one day, we'll be able to vote in an entire Board of Directors that can drop you out on your ass. I only hope it happens before you bleed KCBS dry.

MilitantSquatter
01-20-2008, 09:06 PM
Jeff - Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Very eye opening.

It's interesting.. that's all I can say about where KCBS may or may not be 1, 5, 10 yrs from now. I see unlimited potential for the good of BBQ and the organization, but on the other side I also see the potential for greed, power and favoritism to negate all the good.

I'll take it one day at a time, if I don't like what I see, I'll stop paying my dues to vote, stop competing and go back to just cooking in my yard only where the essence of BBQ and the KCBS mission statement still exist.

KC_Bobby
01-20-2008, 09:25 PM
I hope these are growing pains, I believe this is KCBS is first time formally working with an agency of record. Is that correct? If so, I just pray that the board and KCBS employees are wise enough to realize that the agency's agenda may not be the same as the organizations. Thus, continually ask big picture questions asking how their recommendations effect the short term and the long term for the good of the organization.

I come from an agency background and I'm very pro-agency, but keep in mind that the agency is apt to recommend profitable ideas, It's up to our elected board members to determine which ideas are worth the greater good of the organization.

Being new to the organization and unable to attend this weekend, I'm not all that familiar with the goals and direction of KCBS. I hope the new/current leadership sends out a current state of the KCBS or something so the members understand why the changes we hear about are happening and are able to recognize their purpose.

butts a fire
01-20-2008, 09:27 PM
I'll take it one day at a time, if I don't like what I see, I'll stop paying my dues to vote, stop competing and go back to just cooking in my yard only where the essence of BBQ and the KCBS mission statement still exist.

Amen to that.

stlgreg
01-20-2008, 09:28 PM
It was VERY evident that the contest organizer's need to insist teams are KCBS members came directly from Mike.

Another way to say it is charging teams an extra $25 for not being KCBS members most definately came from Mike.

I like some of things he was talking about but I really think he is looking at a different big picture than the rest of us.

Jeff_in_KC
01-20-2008, 09:31 PM
It was VERY evident that the contest organizer's need to insist teams are KCBS members came directly from Mike.

Another way to say it is charging teams an extra $25 for not being KCBS members most definately came from Mike.

I like some of things he was talking about but I really think he is looking at a different big picture than the rest of us.


I can't help but wonder what Gary Wells would have thought about all this. I wonder if he knew some of it before he passed.

stlgreg
01-20-2008, 09:34 PM
McCloud also kept saying that the hotel discount we all get is like the greatest thing in the world


I can still get a better rate from hotwire or priceline. Plus I stay at a hotel once every three years. How many of us really stay at a hotel when we go to a competition?

Not a benefit for me

KC_Bobby
01-20-2008, 09:46 PM
I've wondered the same thing. It comes down to the ad people not understanding what is truly a benefit to the members and what's not.

Keep in mind that not all members are competitors, but I gotta think that the competing members are the majority of the active members in the organization.

I can see it already, MMA is going to land some deal with Strickland Propane. We'll get a dollar off all propane purchases and accessories. - Hank Hill mod

OK, I'll be serious. They'll land something with Kingsford thinking that is some big benefit to the KCBS member. Sure, the pots might go up. But what percent of KCBS members - much less competitors use Kingsford?

Scottie
01-20-2008, 10:07 PM
I guarantee that MMA is getting a cut of the new members. How many times was that told to us that there are over 2000 new members. Honestly, who cares? How does that help us? What are the percentages of CBJ's to cooks that are new members? If they really wanted to impress us, they would quit giving us the fluff and give us facts.

I would love to see some disclosure statements from the Board and MMA. Someone is going to make a killing on us, the cooks. All I see are people making money on us. What do we get? We're supposedly the stars of the show, but we don't get benefits? I don't know if I really like that.

I know we need to give some things time. But we've had a year. I would like to see something. A few teams are going to make it with sponsors handed to them, but what about the rest?

Scottie

KC_Bobby
01-20-2008, 10:23 PM
Is it true no that no RFP was sent out prior to choosing an agency?

Plowboy
01-20-2008, 10:36 PM
I've had an uneasy feeling since the banquet last night. I'll just say this, Tony Stone spoke before Mike from MMA. Most of Tony's speech was about Gary's vision that this whole thing was about fun. To me, he evoked the heart of KCBS that I felt when I joined back in 2001.

The next speaker was Mike. Fun turned to money. Another quote from Mike's speech was, "Hopefully next year, you all sitting here will be going home with some really big checks!" That's when it hit me that the focus of the KCBS has completely changed.

I could say more, but I'll leave it at that. We'll see who the KCBS caters to. My guess is that many occasional cookers will be marginalized. Everything I'm seeing benefits the top 10%.

Plowboy
01-20-2008, 11:21 PM
I guarantee that MMA is getting a cut of the new members. How many times was that told to us that there are over 2000 new members. Honestly, who cares? How does that help us? What are the percentages of CBJ's to cooks that are new members? If they really wanted to impress us, they would quit giving us the fluff and give us facts.

I would love to see some disclosure statements from the Board and MMA. Someone is going to make a killing on us, the cooks. All I see are people making money on us. What do we get? We're supposedly the stars of the show, but we don't get benefits? I don't know if I really like that.

I know we need to give some things time. But we've had a year. I would like to see something. A few teams are going to make it with sponsors handed to them, but what about the rest?

Scottie

Okay, I'll add one other thing. :mrgreen:

Another thing that Mike said I thought was amusing and telling was about the upcoming Members section of the Web Site. He mentioned that this was coming soon, but the only feature he talked about was how it was going to tell you when your membership fees were up and overdue. :cool:

Here's a cool feature for the Members section: allow cooks and judges to add their future contest list. Cooks can see where their friends (or foes) will be cooking. Organizers can see how much interest their contest is drawing.

bbqbull
01-20-2008, 11:45 PM
Only thing I can say is Wow! Its probably a good thing I wasnt in attendance at that meeting.
I have a tendancy to open my mouth and call a spade a spade. That probably would have gotten me ejected from the crowd. Cool thing is wouldnt be my first time from getting......asked to leave a meeting. But thats ok as I always told my kids 2 basic rules that they had to live by. #1 Dont ever lie to me. Rule # 2 Dont ever steal from me.
I still live my those 2 basic rules today and shall until I die.
Im assuming from the above comments that my rule #1 was violated.
Wondering whats coming down the pike next?
Still trying to keep the faith here my friends, but its hard to swallow what I think is next.
Like Vinny said..........I would rather save my dues from the KCBS and forgo any more KCBS contests. Take that money and hold a big neighborhood party or bash for the Brethren Folks.
That way I dont have to impress anybody except the folks who come here to enjoy some fine eats.
Im sure ive ticked off a lot of folks with this post. Im not sorry if I did.

MilitantSquatter
01-21-2008, 06:26 AM
So, I guess with all the continued uneasiness and reservation by some, what is the solution ?

Some have said to make it known with your vote. Does everyone concerned believe their votes this year or next will accomplish this ?

If someone ran under a platform to try to uncover the rumors about KCBS future vision, MMA, where the avg member stands (especially those not competing) and how they benefit etc., would you vote for them if nothing else was on their agenda like judging, rules etc ? Could they win ?


PS - I just sent an e-mail to all the the KCBS Executives/BOD to share some of my thoughts and concerns on KCBS' direction . I'll be interested to see if their opinions are in line with mine in some areas or not.

drbbq
01-21-2008, 07:13 AM
In all fairness, the comment about "whether you like it or not" has been taken out of context here and spun a little. He was saying that the thing is growing wildly and we are all just along for the ride at this point, and I believe that to be true.

I am a little concerned about the general direction and I believe there are some board members that are steering it that way. It's not all MMA. Are you guys aware that two cooks are also under contract with MMA? And one of them is a BOD member? You'll have to PM me for the names.

tonto1117
01-21-2008, 07:36 AM
This is all extremley interesting as it is disturbing. I always say, go to the source if you can and find out a bit more about them...so I did. Looking over thier website I repeatedly found statments such as :

"At first glance, we are a talented advertising agency. . . We are more. We focus on being a strategic marketing partner for our clients. Yes, we can take pretty pictures and craft fancy ads. In fact, many have won awards. But deep down, we know you donít really care about that. The truth is, you want your company to be successful, from both an image and bottom line perspective. And thatís exactly what we help you do."



"Growing a business. Itís experience. Itís instinct. Itís finding a way to win in an intensely competitive market.
We grow companies from the marketing side out. At the heart of any successful business must be a sound marketing strategy. Without it, there are 100 different ways a business can fail. The path to success is much narrower. We canít walk the path for you, but we are here to provide you all the tools and direction you need."


"Suspended on glass shelves in our foyer are numerous industry awards for design, writing, and creativity. They are sparkling testaments to our associatesí creativity.
Seeing beyond the crystal, however, youíll find a different focus. We help build successful businesses. Excellent design and writing are just tools for that trade.
When you grow, we grow. Success is a lasting testament. No other accolade really matters."

Hmmmmmm...............

MMA Hompage:

http://www.mmacreative.com/index.php?flash=1

drbbq
01-21-2008, 07:42 AM
In all fairness, the comment about "whether you like it or not" has been taken out of context here and spun a little. He was saying that the thing is growing wildly and we are all just along for the ride at this point, and I believe that to be true.

I am a little concerned about the general direction and I believe there are some board members that are steering it that way. It's not all MMA. Are you guys aware that two cooks are also under contract with MMA? And one of them is a BOD member? You'll have to PM me for the names.

A couple people have guessed Rod Gray and in fairness to Rod I don't want to imply the wrong thing. Rod IS NOT contracted to MMA as far as I know, and we are pretty good friends.

tonto1117
01-21-2008, 07:44 AM
A couple people have guessed Rod Gray and in fairness to Rod I don't want to imply the wrong thing. Rod IS NOT contracted to MMA as far as I know, and we are pretty good friends.

Think you can find that"other cook" on thier site if you look hard enough.

Ford
01-21-2008, 07:51 AM
MMA Offices are in Cookeville TN and Nashville TN.

And if you read the BBQ Forum and search back to when the contract was being negotiated you can find lots of discussion on it including who voted even thought it was suggested there was a conflict of interest. This was in the March - June timeframe last year. I remember the threads and had some phone conversations with some BOD members about it.

drbbq
01-21-2008, 07:55 AM
One other tidbit that you may not know. MMA is based in Cookville, Tennessee, a fairly small town between Nashville and Knoxville on I-40.

The outgoing KCBS president also happens to be from Cookville.

stlgreg
01-21-2008, 08:55 AM
In all fairness, the comment about "whether you like it or not" has been taken out of context here and spun a little. He was saying that the thing is growing wildly and we are all just along for the ride at this point, and I believe that to be true.

I am a little concerned about the general direction and I believe there are some board members that are steering it that way. It's not all MMA. Are you guys aware that two cooks are also under contract with MMA? And one of them is a BOD member? You'll have to PM me for the names.
Also in fairness I took the comment the same way Doc did.

I have a feeling i can guess one and i am not guessing Rod.

Scottie
01-21-2008, 08:57 AM
In all fairness, the comment about "whether you like it or not" has been taken out of context here and spun a little. He was saying that the thing is growing wildly and we are all just along for the ride at this point, and I believe that to be true.

I am a little concerned about the general direction and I believe there are some board members that are steering it that way. It's not all MMA. Are you guys aware that two cooks are also under contract with MMA? And one of them is a BOD member? You'll have to PM me for the names.

That would not surprise me at all Ray. I truly believe that we need Dislcosure Statements from the Board and MMA. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that is why MMA was given this task. So the only one's to benefit will be certain Board members and not the membership?

We as members need to know this, as it can change our opinions drastically. We need Dislosure Statements.

Scottie

Plowboy
01-21-2008, 09:02 AM
That would not surprise me at all Ray. I truly believe that we need Dislcosure Statements from the Board and MMA. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that is why MMA was given this task. So the only one's to benefit will be certain Board members and not the membership?

We as members need to know this, as it can change our opinions drastically. We need Dislosure Statements.

Scottie

Also in fairness I took the comment the same way Doc did.

I have a feeling i can guess one and i am not guessing Rod.

I used to work for a guy who would say "lack of information creates rumor and innuendo". Its true.

Ford
01-21-2008, 09:10 AM
Think you can find that"other cook" on thier site if you look hard enough.
It appears that Mike Davis has hired MMA to promote him for corporate catering events. As Mike is not on the BOD I say way to go Mike. I hope you teach 10 classes a year and cook 20 corporate parties a year because that means you won't be beating us up every week. :biggrin: This is meant as humor but if Mike can make cash out of it I think it's great. And if any non BOD member does the same thing I say great for them.

Bigdog
01-21-2008, 09:18 AM
Wow. There seems to be a conflict of interest issue here. I certainly hope that is not the case.

River City Smokehouse
01-21-2008, 09:27 AM
I was not able to be at the banquet but thanks a lot Jeff for passing all of this information along. It definitely opens ones eyes to what's going on with KCBS. I have been uneasy about MMA since the beginning but need to sit and watch this all play out. I hope we can all stay together and stand when the road gets bumpy.

Sawdustguy
01-21-2008, 10:06 AM
I'll be honest, We don't let the politics bother us too much. All we want to do is cook at contests. To us the KCBS is just a sanctioning board. We will never win "Team of the Year" because we don't cook enough contests. We don't care about the extra $25 for non members because we are members. I could go on and on. The candidates I voted for didn't win but I am not going to cry over spilt milk. We just want to have fun, enjoy the comradrie and the joy of cooking BBQ at a contest. Maybe we win a little dinaro along the way also. We are not very good at politics so just let us cook.

Jeff_in_KC
01-21-2008, 10:06 AM
They made reference at the banquet that Mike Davis has contracted with MMA. So that's no secret. Now a board member doing so... wonder why THAT wasn't disclosed as well. This is all very fishy. I think Todd is right when he says "lack of information creates rumor and innuendo". Let's fully disclose what's going on here.

Jeff_in_KC
01-21-2008, 10:09 AM
I'll be honest, We don't let the politics bother us too much. All we want to do is cook at contests. To us the KCBS is just a sanctioning board. We will never win "Team of the Year" because we don't cook enough contests. We don't care about the extra $25 for non members because we are members. I could go on and on. The candidates I voted for didn't win but I am not going to cry over spilt milk. We just want to have fun, enjoy the comradrie and the joy of cooking BBQ at a contest. Maybe we win a little dinaro along the way also. We are not very good at politics so just let us cook.

Guy, I think this is probably going to be the feeling of most members but my fear is things changing to the point where we can't just cook a contest and go home content. I'm afraid that all the thousands of us little guys are going to be funding the KCBS so the big guys can do the cooking and we're in some sort of "minor league" so to speak. That division thing they came up with last year now seems to loom larger and more significant if you ask me.

Plowboy
01-21-2008, 10:16 AM
Guy, I think this is probably going to be the feeling of most members but my fear is things changing to the point where we can't just cook a contest and go home content. I'm afraid that all the thousands of us little guys are going to be funding the KCBS so the big guys can do the cooking and we're in some sort of "minor league" so to speak. That division thing they came up with last year now seems to loom larger and more significant if you ask me.

I'm okay with Minor League status. That may be a way to satisfy folks on two ends of the spectrum: Money vs. Fun (or maybe Big Guys vs. Little Guys). I don't have a problem with either primary focus as long as it can be balanced in some way. A Pro and Minor league system could be fine... as long as it isn't like Busch Series and Nextel Cup where the same drivers are driving both races. That would be a joke.

jbrink01
01-21-2008, 10:27 AM
I'm a really little guy, teamwise, quite the opposite physically speaking. I think in every endeavour you will have David and Goliath. I shot trap and skeet competitively for years. Was I ever good enough to beat Leo Harrison, nope. Was I smart enough to pick events that he didn't frequent, you bet, if I wanted to take money home. Same with BBQ. If I want to win money and trophy's, I'd better not plan on winning the Royal with only 4 or 5 contests a year as a warm up. The guys who can figure out a way to cook 20 contests a year deserve that advantage.

That having been said, TOY is totally different. I think it should be based on a handicap system, with a minimum number of contests to qualify. We made it on the TOY list for ribs with only 4 contests. I don't think if you cook less than 5 or 6 you should be eligible, as TOY should inlude a factor for yor committment to 'Q.

Sure would hate to see KCBS lose it's "grass roots" feeling. NASCAR was mentioned. I was a huge fan until it became the mega-marketing machine that it is.

Dale P
01-21-2008, 10:31 AM
Im just here for the beer. I also want to make friends and beat them at every contest.

Is that really too much to ask for?

tony76248
01-21-2008, 10:35 AM
And the plot thickens..............

Very interesting statements and information. I am not a member of KCBS but I read this forum just about everyday. I do agree with much of what has been written based on life's experiences. Therefore I would say if they do not tell you something, it is something they do not want you to know. A successful ad agency is all about making money, I doubt they are about gratis. Therefore I would like to see the contract (if I were a member) to know what they are planning to do to earn that money. Is there a cap on the amount of money they can earn? What services will be rendered and at what price? I do believe but might be wrong..that, as a non-profit group, members of this group and not just officers or BOD members are entitled to see these figures. Before inuendos are posted, I would definitely find out what is in the contract. But it's still great that we are all entitled to our opinion. It makes for great reading and ....inuendos!

Good luck on getting to the bottom of this thing and remember, KCBS isn't the only show in town, IBCA is the second largest sanctioning body in the US and we grow every year.

gordo
01-21-2008, 11:17 AM
Some very enlightening info and comments in this thread...

I was a paid, voting member of KCBS...but dropped out couple of years back....I Never saw a financial report of where My membership fees were being spent..?

Now as a member of TCGBCA, I hear a treasurers report at each meeting...and posted in the minutes from the meetings..Wow

drbbq
01-21-2008, 11:30 AM
Now I love the folks at IBCA but it seems to me there have been a few fights there over the years too. Didn't a whole faction split off recently?

gordo
01-21-2008, 11:37 AM
Yes Ray, will always differences..:-D

The Houston area had, at that time, one of the largest group of members..

And broke off for more local leadership...all is good though...I'm just a cook, and will cook anywhere, and everwhere...addicted to that smell of smoke!!:-D

Mitchelina
01-21-2008, 11:39 AM
Well, we're pretty small time and not only did Timmy and I do a double take when the MMA finished his presentation, so did our other table companions, including 2 BOD candidates that did not win.

I don't fault MMA. They take their lead from the BOD. Everyone knows that there are different levels of competition - Dr. BBQ, Byron C, the Triggs, Mike Davis and a few others operate in a different world than we weekenders with meat bought at Sam's Club and a 12 pack in the cooler. Maybe those guys will walk away from the banquet with a big check next year, and if they do, bravo! There probably isn't a one of us that doesn't own one of their books (thanks Dr. BBQ!) and have benefitted from their expertise. BBQ2? We'll walk away with a belly full of mediocre food and God willing, some free contest entries. My greatest fear is not the commercialization of KCBS, it's that the costs for competing will become so prohibitive that we won't be able to play anymore.

With a two-person team and 2 full time jobs we have no illusions of being TOY. We'd kill ourselves and go broke trying to do 20 contests. Right now we're proud and happy to do 8-10 and maybe -- maybe, get a chance to win a Grand championship and compete in the Royal Invitational. Hell, since we're the last team to roll in in every single contest we do, we're pleased as heck to get the calls we've gotten.

I hope that people will keep an open mind about the work MMA is doing. I too have an ad agency background and I am sure they are doing exactly what the KCBS Board has asked them to do. But I also hope that those on the Board will make sure that the flavor, history and spirit of KCBS remains and that competition BBQ remains FUN and accessible to the thousands of teams it attracts. Check egos and "delusions" of granduer at the door and make sure there's room for everyone - that's all we ask.

kcpellethead
01-21-2008, 11:40 AM
Hey everybody!

First of all, thank you for your support in the recent election. Somebody said my re-election was a "given." Believe when I say it wasn't and I never felt that way.

So, on to the point. I am not, and will not be represented by MMA Creative. That would be a serious conflict of interest with my position as a volunteer board member for the Kansas City Barbeque Society.

Rod

P.S. - I don't have any e-mail from you Vinny.

drbbq
01-21-2008, 11:46 AM
I am a little concerned about the general direction and I believe there are some board members that are steering it that way. It's not all MMA. Are you guys aware that two cooks are also under contract with MMA? And one of them is a BOD member? You'll have to PM me for the names.

I have learned today that the KCBS BOD member that I claimed was under contract with MMA is not. I apologize for spreading false info. They have done some business together in the past for which MMA was paid but there is no contract.
Frankly, I still think consider it a conflict of interest but it's only fair to clear it up.

HoDeDo
01-21-2008, 12:07 PM
I have learned today that the KCBS BOD member that I claimed was under contract with MMA is not. I apologize for spreading false info. They have done some business together in the past for which MMA was paid but there is no contract.
Frankly, I still think consider it a conflict of interest but it's only fair to clear it up.

Thanks for the clarification, I tend to agree; lets hope for better judgement in the future.

Sawdustguy
01-21-2008, 12:16 PM
Hey everybody!

First of all, thank you for your support in the recent election. Somebody said my re-election was a "given." Believe when I say it wasn't and I never felt that way.

So, on to the point. I am not, and will not be represented by MMA Creative. That would be a serious conflict of interest with my position as a volunteer board member for the Kansas City Barbeque Society.

Rod

P.S. - I don't have any e-mail from you Vinny.

Rod,

I did not vote for you but now that you have won a seat I hope you do the right thing. Thanks for stepping up to the plate.

Rolling Smoke
01-21-2008, 12:24 PM
I have learned today that the KCBS BOD member that I claimed was under contract with MMA is not. I apologize for spreading false info. They have done some business together in the past for which MMA was paid but there is no contract.
Frankly, I still think consider it a conflict of interest but it's only fair to clear it up.

It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong but it takes an even bigger man to handle two good lookin's babes like you're doing in your avatar.

SP
01-21-2008, 12:56 PM
OK, Im the average KCBS member. I compete in a few contest a year. I cook for friends etc. I try to keep up on the happinings of the KCBS. Can someone explain why the changes are needed? I hear that bbq is the fastest growing "sport". I know I have to enter contest months in advance to get a spot. It dosen't seem to be hurting. Am I wrong?

To me hiring an ad agency to improve the logos, ads, website is good., but if they are a consulting agency why are they needed?

But I have no facts, I haven't seen the books and I talk out my arse. So......

Paola Greg
01-21-2008, 03:14 PM
Mr. McCloud, I hope you've learned something of value. I hope you've learned that we're all important and we all have voices. And if things aren't going as us members like, one day, we'll be able to vote in an entire Board of Directors that can drop you out on your ass. I only hope it happens before you bleed KCBS dry.

Well Jeff, a majority of the BOD voted to hire MMA last year. What you said that we all have a voice is certainly true, but our voice is to the Board. If you feel the Board made a bad decision to hire them, it sure would be easy to mail all the current and newly elected board members and tell them that you recommend that MMA's contract be terminated immediately and why. MMA works for KCBS, not the other way around......
Personally, I can not say that having MMA on board has been a benefit or a detriment to me as a member yet, but I still have an open mind......

we'll smoke u
01-21-2008, 04:02 PM
The thing that stuck in my head that he said was the Nascar reference and how we are going to grow like them. Does that mean I'm not going to be able to afford to compete in the near future because the cost is going to go thru the roof.
One of the main reason's I compete is that I have met a lot of friend doing this and it has become like a family for me when we compete at the same contests.
I'm not really foreshore where KCBS is heading but I hope that the contract KCBS and MMA have, does not destroy what has taken the BBQ forefathers a very long time to build

smoke-n-my-i's
01-21-2008, 04:19 PM
Gosh, this sounds a little bit like a thread a few weeks ago when I made a comment and I was bashed by a single individual... (no names mentioned).


It seems like MMA is in the business to make money. So what do you think they are going to do.... make money. They don't care who they step on or who they hurt in the process. $$$ is in their eyes.

They will (highly) suggest changes so the more KCBS makes, the more they make. It is all about profit, money, greed.

What is strange to me is, why are there so many other bbq societies across the nation, all nonprofit, that follow KCBS rules and regulations, but some have no sanctioned events under their names. They only list KCBS, and go along with their TOY standards, etc....

I saw a company that I was working for years ago doing this exact same thing. They brought in outsiders to tell them what to change to make more profit. Well, guess what???? They are no longer in business...... Guess what MMA would do if a LOT of the KCBS member said, we have had enough and dropped their membership???? Do you think they would bail out KCBS??? NOT ! ! !

I sure hope this is not what I see... but I have seen it before on several occasions.... Outsiders coming in that don't know squat about the business and telling them how to run it.

Ok, my 2 cents worth, so don't slam me for voicing it again.

Gene01
01-21-2008, 04:44 PM
it is my understanding and I could be wrong that MMA gets 19% of new memberships, at 35.00 per membership and the minimum of 2000 new members... that is 13,300.00 and I believe that almost all of that membership is attributed to new CBJ's as that number too has increased by 2000, this means that if I am correct that MMA has done nothing to increase membership however, they benefit from the growth.... nice for them, they also control the sale of the ugly shirts, at a great increase in price they take a cut from handling it, then they split the profits with KCBS, when I ordered my first REP shirt, took 4 weeks to get a shirt.... the KCBS office got shirts out much faster and near half the price....I again could be wrong... it was also pointed out to me by a friend that when asked at the meeting (I was present) what is the benefit of membership? Mike responded there are a lot of benefits, he could not name one though..... my friend said to me later it is sanctioning and knowing the rules and standards would be the same at all contests.... he was right on.... the only thing mentioned was a discount to a hotel chain that I would never stay at... I would hope that Mike from MMA would go out, talk to teams/kcbs members see what we/they think, what they want and what would benefit and grow the organization....

on another note, any advertising agency is going to take and try to make the best deal for themselves first, the customer is a distant second...we shoudl know this.... we need to get someone who is sharp to negotiate what we get for what they get paid and how it should be structured.


that was my rant for the day!!

Roo-B-Q'N
01-21-2008, 05:04 PM
On several occasions this weekend I was told by BOD's that they will not, can not and will never act on any verbal suggestion given to them by the membership.

So when an entire room of members, by a show of hands, said they thought it was not a good idea to make everyone cooking a contest be a member of KCBS OR that it was a good idea to have the non KCBS members pay the extra $25.00 they are trying to force the organizers to coolect on their behalf, they continued to push thier own misguided agenda and not pay attention to what the membership was saying to them. Why is this?????

Because it was considered to be a verbal request and it will remain that way unless we as members write to them via email or snail mail and give them our thoughts. We as members can not sit by and complain about the BOD if we ourselves are not emailing or writing our Board of Directors who are our represnetatives to this organization. We need to let them know what we think and how we want them to run our organization. They can not nor will they if they don't know what we want. If after we have voiced our opinions and they continue to act in self serving ways then we remove them from the board and vote accordingly.

Now I know the two above examples and the MMA issue plus many more are very heated topics. And it has been suggested in this thread to not bombard the BOD with emails. I say they ask for it they should get. But before sending your email sit down write a few drafts and figure out what you want. A complaint without a solution is just bitching and does nobody any good.

My .02 cents. I am off to write my first drafts to the BOD and when done will be emailing them to them via the KCBS webite http://www.kcbs.us/about_board.php

Neal
01-21-2008, 05:05 PM
I have learned today that the KCBS BOD member that I claimed was under contract with MMA is not. I apologize for spreading false info. They have done some business together in the past for which MMA was paid but there is no contract.
Frankly, I still think consider it a conflict of interest but it's only fair to clear it up.

http://www.learn2q.com/links.php

Click the link if you are wondering who it is.

Solidkick
01-21-2008, 05:20 PM
We just elected 3 new members to the BODs, and re-elected a current member of the BOD. We elected these people because we felt that they were what was best for KCBS. Let's give them a chance to get settled. I'm sure many have read the comments here, and they know there are concerns. A marketing agency can be fired just as easily as being hired. Let's give it 4-6 months and see how this plays out.

Gene01
01-21-2008, 05:38 PM
A marketing company can be fired, depending on their written agreement, contracts are made to be broken (at a cost) I have confidence in several of the board members, their are those in my mind who have their own agenda, there are also those who I feel are a wonderful choice, I have much confidence in them.... we will all see how it plays out, I see municipalities lose out in contract deals like this as they are not negotiators and are not smart enough to hire one liek the oposition does/did.... in my City San DIego, the city negotiated with attorneys who make tens of millions of dollars a year negotiation for Alex Spanos, the city of San DIego used city staff to do their bidding, guess who won to the tune of 10's of millions of dollars, I will assure you it was not the public...

Merl
01-21-2008, 05:41 PM
I did not vote to adopt the MMA contract. I opposed it loudly. However the vote of the BOD was to sign the contract.

So as a member of the KCBS BOD I have since that date taken on to work closely with MMA. Do I agree with everything, no. But the elected BOD at the time said yes. So I have to join the team.

We have a lot of disagreements. But when the vote it taken we all have to support the vote, like it or not. The new BOD will have to support the contract as well.

Many on the BOD were surprised when I supported later issues with MMA. That is what is means to be an elected official. I do what seems right for all of the members of KCBS. Not a few. We cannot lose sight of our membership.

We should examine decisions and ask, is it fair to you, is it fair to me, is it good for KCBS and will it be good overall. That is how I evaluate decisions.

Always let me know what you think.
Yours in Q
Merl Whitebook

tony76248
01-21-2008, 05:51 PM
Now I love the folks at IBCA but it seems to me there have been a few fights there over the years too. Didn't a whole faction split off recently?

They did, but it was a regional issue and I couldn't begin to give you all of the facts.

Jeff_in_KC
01-21-2008, 05:53 PM
We just elected 3 new members to the BODs, and re-elected a current member of the BOD. We elected these people because we felt that they were what was best for KCBS. Let's give them a chance to get settled. I'm sure many have read the comments here, and they know there are concerns. A marketing agency can be fired just as easily as being hired. Let's give it 4-6 months and see how this plays out.

I don't disagree with you, Gary but I also don't think we let the new board members OR the old ones get started with the new term in February without all of us voicing our opinions. I agree with Tom that we DO need to flood their email boxes with our concerns and ask them how they intend to represent us on the Board of Directors. I guess I'm saying that in this time in the history of our organization, it's imperative that we ALL hold the BOD accountable for doing what the members want. And that includes all of us, even you guys who claim you're too little to be concerned with it... that you're happy if you go to an event and have a few beers in the cooler. Why? Because you guys are going to be the first ones to lose out if things progress the way many of us suspect they will. Next it will be those of us who maybe aspire to higher things in BBQ but are still small too. Before long all they'll care about will be those like the Triggs, Quaus, LottaBulls, Mixons and our good friend Doc. The old saying we use here "any given weekend" will be no more. All we'll be doing is financing the vision MMA has for KCBS with our membership fees. Me? I personally want to hold onto the vision that Gary Wells had for KCBS... a society that came into being so that all of us could compete on equal levels, make lasting friendships and most importantly have fun. Big business is not fun.

Jeff_in_KC
01-21-2008, 06:11 PM
I did not vote to adopt the MMA contract. I opposed it loudly. However the vote of the BOD was to sign the contract.

Merl, I do not have a problem with the contract being signed at this time. What I have a problem with is the fact the contract details are not being made available to the members of KCBS who, if it were not for, there would be no KCBS. The details need to be fully disclosed. I am under a belief right now that something's fishy because of the secrecy.

So as a member of the KCBS BOD I have since that date taken on to work closely with MMA. Do I agree with everything, no. But the elected BOD at the time said yes. So I have to join the team.

I understand that but you must realize that WE are ALL part of the team and the BOD REPRESENTS all of us. Those who do not think we have a right to know what's going on may find themselves voted out next time they are up for re-election.

We have a lot of disagreements. But when the vote it taken we all have to support the vote, like it or not. The new BOD will have to support the contract as well.

There is nothing wrong with openly saying you disagree with the contract, yet give it time to see how it goes. Then bring it back up when you see there are issues that aren't working. If it works out, it gives you an opportunity to be a bigger man or woman and admit you were wrong. I fully hope and pray that I am proven wrong in all the stir I am creating and I will race to be first in line to admit it if that time comes.

Many on the BOD were surprised when I supported later issues with MMA. That is what is means to be an elected official. I do what seems right for all of the members of KCBS. Not a few. We cannot lose sight of our membership.

I want to emphasize your last statement there: "We cannot lose sight of our membership." I implore the entire BOD to keep that thought squarely in the forefront of their minds, even if it means making a big ol' placard to place on the table during your BOD meetings each month. I will add one thing to that comment though:

The KCBS Board of Directors cannot lose sight of ALL of our membership. (not just the big dogs of the BBQ world)

We should examine decisions and ask, is it fair to you, is it fair to me, is it good for KCBS and will it be good overall. That is how I evaluate decisions.

I have a slight disagreement with this one... you ommitted the most important litmus test:

IS IT TRUE TO THE ORIGINAL MISSION OF THE KCBS AS GIVEN TO US BY GARY WELLS?

Always let me know what you think.
Yours in Q
Merl Whitebook

I just did and will continue to do so, Merl! :wink:

Respectfully,

Jeff

Bud's BBQ
01-21-2008, 06:35 PM
As a relatiave new comer (2007 was our first comp year, only 4 comps under our belt), we thought we were involved with a 'hobby', amateur sort of adventure highlighting one of our favorite pass times: smoking and cooking great food. To be judged by our peers, compete with some of the best and win a ribbon or a couple of bucks now and then.....great stuff.

Absolutely appalled at what I am hearing in this thread. KCBS is a 501c NOT FOR PROFIT organization ....repeat, not for profit. What is the KC BS mission??? I presumed it was to promote the great hobby (sport?) of cooking and smoking. MMA is a marketing company. I have been gainfully employed in marketing and sales for over 30 years. Marketing companys, and MMA is no exception, are in business to "improve the bottom line".....this taken from MMA web site. Well, seems to me that a 501c not for profit and making money are not congrous, don't compute, not right!

As we contemplate another new comp season, I begin to wonder about the myth versus the reality of an open, level playing field. Reminds me of years ago when I raced a ratty old spitfire in Sports Car Club of America gymkanas in the local super market parking lot. SCCA had 'homulgation' rules that kept you from being a pro! Please, BOD, let's keep this wonderful history of thin blue smoke for regular folks.

As to voicing of opinions, we will write a letter to the BOD. As Jeff suggested, we all should.

Gene01
01-21-2008, 06:42 PM
you know, Meryl is a board member who you can call anytime, he listens, he cares and I believe that both he and Carol will do what is best for the membership as a whole....

HoDeDo
01-21-2008, 06:48 PM
We should examine decisions and ask, is it fair to you, is it fair to me, is it good for KCBS and will it be good overall. That is how I evaluate decisions.

Merl, Thanks btw for listening to my blab (and Tom's) for at least an Hour total -- WAY to late in the evening for listening to BoD related items. But you definitely know my thoughts :wink:

I personally want to hold onto the vision that Gary Wells had for KCBS... a society that came into being so that all of us could compete on equal levels, make lasting friendships and most importantly have fun. Big business is not fun.

It was an interesting contrast between Tony's parting speech - on Gary's Vision, and above all having fun.... and the MMA speech about ToY being like NASCAR in the future - with big checks. I think they will learn more once they are past the point of trying to change things just to justify being here.

To the point you were trying to make to Kick -- I think the BoD candidates have at least a cursory knowledge of the issues; many were running to try to help solve them. I don't think we need too long of a break in period. They do need some time to get the political climate understood, but I would hope most BoD candidates are ready to make an impact, and hit the ground running.

MilitantSquatter
01-21-2008, 06:52 PM
Not looking to stir the pot but there are many valid points, concerns etc. by others that I agree in full or part with (and there are othersthat I don't agree with) as I'm not in a position to get it off the ground, but would a legitimate, sincere online e-mail petition of sorts seeking answers on clarification of the future goals etc. voluntarily signed by KCBS members be better than bombarding multiple BOD members with e-mails ?

HoDeDo
01-21-2008, 07:53 PM
Not looking to stir the pot but there are many valid points, concerns etc. by others that I agree in full or part with (and there are othersthat I don't agree with) as I'm not in a position to get it off the ground, but would a legitimate, sincere online e-mail petition of sorts seeking answers on clarification of the future goals etc. voluntarily signed by KCBS members be better than bombarding multiple BOD members with e-mails ?

Not a bad idea! And should provide a more concise and direct message. Help kill some of the noise of a full inbox, and trying to distill info from piles of email.

Jeff_in_KC
01-21-2008, 08:01 PM
Not looking to stir the pot but there are many valid points, concerns etc. by others that I agree in full or part with (and there are othersthat I don't agree with) as I'm not in a position to get it off the ground, but would a legitimate, sincere online e-mail petition of sorts seeking answers on clarification of the future goals etc. voluntarily signed by KCBS members be better than bombarding multiple BOD members with e-mails ?

Vinny, in my opinion, both won't hurt. I had a conversation with someone earlier today and I fully intend on creating some sort of petition to the BOD to be signed by all concerned KCBS members. As I am not sure how to proceed with an online version, I think for the time being emails expressing our concerns might suffice. That being said, with both Rod and Merl being members here, I have no doubt that objections raised here will reach the ears of most if not all board members.

Someone earlier mentioned that letters of complaint without a proposed solution is just bitching. I, of course, am not anyone of any importance other than being a member but if anyone decides to write the BODs, which I encourage you to do, I also would encourage you to do the following:

I know everyone knows this already but sometimes as I often find with myself, passion oversteps logic and reason. Be respectful and professional with your comments. Indicate the issues you have to bring to the BOD and offer a solution or at least express where your concerns lie and ask the director where he or she stands on the issue. Write the same questions and offer the same solutions to ALL directors, not just some of them and it would probably be best to word them all the same (copy/paste). When you get replies back, it will be up to you to determine if you are satisfied with the answers you receive. If I hear what I hope to hear, I am full willing to give this a chance for a few months and see what happens. But I think it is imperative that the full board knows how we all feel and what we think might be happening to our organization, regardless of how big or small a part of it you think you are.

Merl
01-21-2008, 09:42 PM
We have made progress. Are we where I think the organization should be on a personal level, no. Just consider:

Last year
You could not attend a BOD meeting
You could not obtain an agenda
You could not speak at a board meeting

in 2007
You can attend BOD meetings
You can request agenda's (the full one) in advance of the meeting
You can speak on agenda items or on any topic

Next goal, bring back up; telephone attendance of BOD meetings, by members. It was voted down in 07, I hope it passes in 08.
Transparent, no not yet
much improved yes

As of today or tomorrow a new e-mail addres, which will send mail to every member of the Board automatically. I will post it asap.

We are taking baby steps, but we are moving. It has not been easy. Often you have to take a beating to make progress. We need your support and your ideas. As many said, a complaint with a suggestion does work.

Will we (bod) be perfect, no way.
Will we improve, I think we have and pray we continue to.
Yours in Q
Merl

txschutte
01-21-2008, 09:56 PM
This talk of a 'certain' BOD member being in bed with MMA has gotten me nervous. A KCBS membership is around the corner for me, as I hope to compete in some sanctioned events later in the year.
Will the BOD put my name in the same regard as some of the big hitters? If I have a grievance, will my voice be heard? Or am I a small guy that will get pushed aside because I haven't been doing 20 contests a year?
I have been doing local contests for years, and if having a straight chance means staying in my own "lttle league", I'll do it.
Does MMA know that indisclosure can hurt membership enrollment, and drive away current members?

arlieque
01-21-2008, 09:56 PM
Merl I cant believe you didnt give the credit for the new email address idea? I guess I will have to start emailing carol! haha

We have come a long way! Nascar was mentioned many times this weekend. Even they changed and lost many fans, now they say they will stop all changes and go back to giving the fans what they want. Good racing!!!!!

Bigmista
01-21-2008, 10:01 PM
That having been said, TOY is totally different. I think it should be based on a handicap system, with a minimum number of contests to qualify. We made it on the TOY list for ribs with only 4 contests. I don't think if you cook less than 5 or 6 you should be eligible, as TOY should inlude a factor for yor committment to 'Q.



Here in Cali we had a great guy named Bram Britcher re-write the TOY rules for the CBBQA. Here it is in a nutshell:

1. Only your top 5 contest finishes count, no matter how many contests you compete in.

2. Points are allocated based on the number of teams in the contest. For Example, if you place first in a contest that has 29 teams, you get 29 points. 2nd place gets 28 and so on.

3. Your 5 highest scores get added up at the end of the year and the team with the most points wins.

Is this an advantage for the people who win at big contests? Yes. But aren't they the people who should be team of the year?

And this way, everyone has a fair shot.

I figure if it's simple enough for me to understand it, it should be simple enough for everyone.

Jeff_in_KC
01-21-2008, 10:01 PM
We have come a long way! Nascar was mentioned many times this weekend. Even they changed and lost many fans, now they say they will stop all changes and go back to giving the fans what they want. Good racing!!!!!

Memo to Mike McCloud: Listen to Arlie.

Sawdustguy
01-22-2008, 01:10 AM
I keep hearing about the KCBS trying to emulate Nascar. If they want to try to emulate anyone they should emulate the NCAA. At least the NCAA has a program that everyone can be competitive large school or small. The NCAA has multiple divisions based on school size with each division having their own championship. Why couldn't the KCBS set up divisions based on the number of contests cooked and do TOY based on divisions. It is tuff for alot of teams to cook 10 contests a year. why not have a division for teams with under 10 contests and a division for over 10 contests? Even if I cooked as well as Johnny Trig, Rod Grey, Bad Byron etc. the maximum amount of contests I can do is 6 to 7 because of my job and financial constraints. Why penalize a team who can't physically cook as many contests?

MilitantSquatter
01-22-2008, 06:25 AM
I keep hearing about the KCBS trying to emulate Nascar. If they want to try to emulate anyone they should emulate the NCAA. At least the NCAA has a program that everyone can be competitive large school or small. The NCAA has multiple divisions based on school size with each division having their own championship. Why couldn't the KCBS set up divisions based on the number of contests cooked and do TOY based on divisions. It is tuff for alot of teams to cook 10 contests a year. why not have a division for teams with under 10 contests and a division for over 10 contests? Even if I cooked as well as Johnny Trig, Rod Grey, Bad Byron etc. the maximum amount of contests I can do is 6 to 7 because of my job and financial constraints. Why penalize a team who can't physically cook as many contests?


Guy - I don't know if I agree with multiple TOY's. I would think that a true Pro/Am division could work as long as the entry fees for the AM's were substantially less. (ex. only cash awards in Pro's and only ribbons/trophies in the AM's but I think separate contests would be required. The problem there is organizers might want only Pro contests since it can probably generate more cash from sponsors wanting to be involved.

The problem I do have is that they increased the qualifying 100% (from 5-10 contests) without explaining where they got the # 10 from. It only makes sense to know what the mean, mode and avg. for KCBS members.

I sent an e-mail to the BOD and got two responses so far. I will paraphrase and not name names but one stated that this decision was made with very little notice and no input from general membership and other who always thought it was 10 but would check into it.

stlgreg
01-22-2008, 06:41 AM
Vinny, in my opinion, both won't hurt. I had a conversation with someone earlier today and I fully intend on creating some sort of petition to the BOD to be signed by all concerned KCBS members. As I am not sure how to proceed with an online version, I think for the time being emails expressing our concerns might suffice. That being said, with both Rod and Merl being members here, I have no doubt that objections raised here will reach the ears of most if not all board members.

Someone earlier mentioned that letters of complaint without a proposed solution is just bitching. I, of course, am not anyone of any importance other than being a member but if anyone decides to write the BODs, which I encourage you to do, I also would encourage you to do the following:

I know everyone knows this already but sometimes as I often find with myself, passion oversteps logic and reason. Be respectful and professional with your comments. Indicate the issues you have to bring to the BOD and offer a solution or at least express where your concerns lie and ask the director where he or she stands on the issue. Write the same questions and offer the same solutions to ALL directors, not just some of them and it would probably be best to word them all the same (copy/paste). When you get replies back, it will be up to you to determine if you are satisfied with the answers you receive. If I hear what I hope to hear, I am full willing to give this a chance for a few months and see what happens. But I think it is imperative that the full board knows how we all feel and what we think might be happening to our organization, regardless of how big or small a part of it you think you are.

Jeff,
Here is a site that does online peptitions.
http://www.petitiononline.com/

Sawdustguy
01-22-2008, 07:18 AM
Guy - I don't know if I agree with multiple TOY's. I would think that a true Pro/Am division could work as long as the entry fees for the AM's were substantially less. (ex. only cash awards in Pro's and only ribbons/trophies in the AM's but I think separate contests would be required. The problem there is organizers might want only Pro contests since it can probably generate more cash from sponsors wanting to be involved.

The problem I do have is that they increased the qualifying 100% (from 5-10 contests) without explaining where they got the # 10 from. It only makes sense to know what the mean, mode and avg. for KCBS members.

I sent an e-mail to the BOD and got two responses so far. I will paraphrase and not name names but one stated that this decision was made with very little notice and no input from general membership and other who always thought it was 10 but would check into it.

Vinny,

Happy New Year Vinny! If we compete for money, we are all professional. I don't think you need separate contests. The suggestion is for TOY only. Let me play this analogy. Consider the Academy Awards where all films play in the same market but the awards are for different catagories. There is an award for best screenplay, best animated feature etc. Couldn't the KCBS give an award for TOY for over 10 events and TOY under ten events. We all cook the same contests just as we do now.

timzcardz
01-22-2008, 07:27 AM
Some intersting things here.

Question: Are KCBS' Constitution and Bylaws available anywhere?

I checked their site but couldn't find them.

Ford
01-22-2008, 07:49 AM
Some intersting things here.

Question: Are KCBS' Constitution and Bylaws available anywhere?

I checked their site but couldn't find them.
You have the option of going into the office and requesting a copy after proving you are a member or you can send a self addressed stamped envelope with a request for a copy. The by-laws state that they must provide it to you (standard in 501c filings). Same applies to the published financial statements that must be filed each year.

Ford
01-22-2008, 07:56 AM
Guy - I don't know if I agree with multiple TOY's. I would think that a true Pro/Am division could work as long as the entry fees for the AM's were substantially less. (ex. only cash awards in Pro's and only ribbons/trophies in the AM's but I think separate contests would be required. The problem there is organizers might want only Pro contests since it can probably generate more cash from sponsors wanting to be involved.

The problem I do have is that they increased the qualifying 100% (from 5-10 contests) without explaining where they got the # 10 from. It only makes sense to know what the mean, mode and avg. for KCBS members.

I sent an e-mail to the BOD and got two responses so far. I will paraphrase and not name names but one stated that this decision was made with very little notice and no input from general membership and other who always thought it was 10 but would check into it.
I sent a letter to the BOD on TOY and the possibility that a team with 10 DAL's could finish ahead of a team with 3 GC's. So far I have not received a writtent reply but I did hear that it was discussed at the BOD meeting and the comment was TOY was for the big guys not the little guys. Sounds like who cares about you guys anyway. Personally I think this is just more of the MMA thinking with NASCAR like dreams. Next year I won't care what TOY results are unless I get real lucky this year with my 7 or 8 contests. I consider it a real honor for a team that cooked 5 contests to finish tied for 39th in chicken out of all the teams that compete. But points for DAL the same as for 24th place?????

YankeeBBQ
01-22-2008, 08:52 AM
MMA could definitely help KCBS accomplish their Mission. If you consider KCBSís bottom line to be the Mission Statement which is ďOur mission is to celebrate, teach, preserve, and promote barbecue as a culinary technique, sport and art form. We want barbecue to be recognized as America's Cuisine.Ē

MMAís job is to find outlets to promote this mission such as the article in Saveur Magazine and shows about BBQ on Food TV and the Travel channel. Finding sponsors for bbq competitions is also in line with this mission statement. Partnering with companies like Tabasco and Royal Oak will also help to spread awareness of the KCBS and BBQ in general.

Is it MMAís job to find and grow benefits for current members? Not necessarily. Thatís the job of the BOD. Is it MMAís job to communicate to the members whatís going on or to disclose their contract terms with the Membership. Not really thatís the job of the BOD.

Should MMA be in charge of the annual banquet? I donít see what they bring to the table in that regard. Iím curios why the BOD handed the reigns over to MMA and what they thought this would accomplish.

MMA is taking a lot of crap that perhaps should be directed at the KCBS board. There seems to be a major lack of communication between the BOD and the Membership. The Board Hired a Marketing company that if used correctly could help to grow our membership and spread the word about bbq to the masses.

Does the BOD have a set of goals for MMA to accomplish such as growing membership to x amount by y time? Are there any benchmarks in the contract? Have we seen any increase in Media attention in print or on television that can be attributed to MMA? There should be real goals and real ways to measure whether those goals have been accomplished.



Just saying MMA is bad and Mike Mcloud looks sleezy doesn't accomplish anything. We should look at ways this company can help the KCBS and Barbecue in general and communicate those ideas to the KCBS BOD. And we should expect the BOD to communicate with us.

Plowboy
01-22-2008, 09:05 AM
Good points, Steve. If the BOD felt like marketing INTERNALLY was important to member retention, I can see using a company like MMA. When Mike talks about programs that target existing membership like a members section of the Web site, it does imply that membership retention is something that they've been asked to focus on. That may be the wrong assumption, but I think its an easy one.

Again, a main theme of this thread is the need for communication. If we knew what was being asked of MMA, it would eliminate some of the rumor and speculation. We don't know what "MMA's job" is specifically.

tonto1117
01-22-2008, 09:32 AM
MMA could definitely help KCBS accomplish their Mission. If you consider KCBSís bottom line to be the Mission Statement which is ďOur mission is to celebrate, teach, preserve, and promote barbecue as a culinary technique, sport and art form. We want barbecue to be recognized as America's Cuisine.Ē

MMAís job is to find outlets to promote this mission such as the article in Saveur Magazine and shows about BBQ on Food TV and the Travel channel. Finding sponsors for bbq competitions is also in line with this mission statement. Partnering with companies like Tabasco and Royal Oak will also help to spread awareness of the KCBS and BBQ in general.

Is it MMAís job to find and grow benefits for current members? Not necessarily. Thatís the job of the BOD. Is it MMAís job to communicate to the members whatís going on or to disclose their contract terms with the Membership. Not really thatís the job of the BOD.

Should MMA be in charge of the annual banquet? I donít see what they bring to the table in that regard. Iím curios why the BOD handed the reigns over to MMA and what they thought this would accomplish.

MMA is taking a lot of crap that perhaps should be directed at the KCBS board. There seems to be a major lack of communication between the BOD and the Membership. The Board Hired a Marketing company that if used correctly could help to grow our membership and spread the word about bbq to the masses.

Does the BOD have a set of goals for MMA to accomplish such as growing membership to x amount by y time? Are there any benchmarks in the contract? Have we seen any increase in Media attention in print or on television that can be attributed to MMA? There should be real goals and real ways to measure whether those goals have been accomplished.



Just saying MMA is bad and Mike Mcloud looks sleezy doesn't accomplish anything. We should look at ways this company can help the KCBS and Barbecue in general and communicate those ideas to the KCBS BOD. And we should expect the BOD to communicate with us.

I agree if that is indeed the role that they have been asked to do. But why on earth would you have a key note speaker from the MMA telling some 370 member's at the annual banquet ""Change is coming... whether you like it or not." Sure makes me wonder who is driving the bus.

Scottie
01-22-2008, 10:02 AM
I am starting to believe that for a marketing to work, you first have to market the current members. Otherwise, we get this situation that we have now. We don't know anything that is going on.. Speculation and a bunch of half truths. I do not see how that is good to attrack new members, but I have been wrong before..

So if the marketing company gets credit for the "growth" of our association. I would assume that they get penalized for any members that were in good standing that don't come back and re-new their membership?

Scottie

scottyd
01-22-2008, 10:21 AM
I am starting to believe that for a marketing to work, you first have to market the current members. Otherwise, we get this situation that we have now. We don't know anything that is going on.. Speculation and a bunch of half truths. I do not see how that is good to attrack new members, but I have been wrong before..

So if the marketing company gets credit for the "growth" of our association. I would assume that they get penalized for any members that were in good standing that don't come back and re-new their membership?

Scottie

I agree whole hearted with you on this. Pat them on the back for the new ones but Sweep the old nonreturning ones under the rug. Hmmm I woud think that in order to grow at high speed you must retain what you have, otherwise you just spin your wheels.

Quality vs Quantity

I might be just full of crap. did I get off topic?

River City Smokehouse
01-22-2008, 10:36 AM
I agree if that is indeed the role that they have been asked to do. But why on earth would you have a key note speaker from the MMA telling some 370 member's at the annual banquet ""Change is coming... whether you like it or not." Sure makes me wonder who is driving the bus.
Sounds too much like a dictatorship and the beginning of what could be called a "Dog and Pony Show":rolleyes:

Ford
01-22-2008, 11:45 AM
Sounds too much like a dictatorship and the beginning of what could be called a "Dog and Pony Show":rolleyes:
Now I think you're exaggerating. Drink your cool aid and be a good boy :twisted::lol:

Nitrofly
01-22-2008, 12:56 PM
Hey all

My head is spinning I have read this thread twice
I am so tired of the word change without any plan as
to what the change is going to be. I think every KCBS
member should request a copy of the KCBS Bylaws.
Is it true they will not disclose the financial statements??
Has anyone out here read the KCBS bye laws?? Also
this is for any KCBS BOD member out there, what did
MMA Creative promise to do for KCBS? It is the BOD's
responsibility to make sure that MMA lives up to what is
in the contract. But is is KCBS members responsibility to
tell the BOD what they expect from KCBS and with our
vote we can and will make any changes that are needed.
does the KCBS BOD publish minutes from their meetings?
If KCBS is really paying MMA 18% of new members it
should only be members they bring in not members brought
in through CBJ classes. or other sources. If we/members of
KCBS are not happy with something we can let them know
with our vote and the campaign can start during BBQ season
so the BOD will know how the members feel.. With all that
said lets let the know BOD deal with the comments made
by Mike McCloud. Do we want to be Nascar?? is that what
the BOD wants for KCBS?? What do you members want from
KCBS moving forward?:?::?:

Scottie
01-22-2008, 01:02 PM
Let's face it. Using NASCAR is a bad example for them to be using. Are they using it because everyone thinks they can drive a stock car, cause it looks like a everyday car? Or are they comparing using NASCAR where the sport is dominated by only 40 teams. I personally don't want it to be NASCAR, cause if I am not one of those 40 teams, then I don't get to play? Bad example...

Plowboy
01-22-2008, 01:22 PM
Scottie,

I think you've probably doubled your total post count just on this thread. :wink:

Keep it up, good stuff.

Mr. Plow

KC_Bobby
01-22-2008, 01:30 PM
The scary part of the NASCAR example is that over the last decade NASCAR has grown massively and become much more profitable, yet their core fans seem to hate the changes that were taken to do so.

It really does come down to communication to members. I thought it was just me being new to KCBS that I didn't know the goals, direction and plans for KCBS. I hope the first item on the agenda when the new board meets is to provide a State of the KCBS to its members - including short-term and long-term goals.

Bigdog
01-22-2008, 01:32 PM
I wonder if other BBQ forums are having such an intense discussion of the KCBS and MMA?

Jeff_in_KC
01-22-2008, 01:37 PM
I wonder if other BBQ forums are having such an intense discussion of the KCBS and MMA?

I don't visit many others very often but I have not seen it. I'm sure if they also had a member who incited riots, they would as well. But I think a lot of who you see on other forums are also coming here and becoming members anyway.

DawgPhan
01-22-2008, 01:48 PM
I don't visit many others very often but I have not seen it. I'm sure if they also had a member who incited riots, they would as well. But I think a lot of who you see on other forums are also coming here and becoming members anyway.


I know I did...this forum is much more based around the aspects of bbq that interest me so I like it...more comp people talking about comp stuff..

Ford
01-22-2008, 01:58 PM
I wonder if other BBQ forums are having such an intense discussion of the KCBS and MMA?
The BBQ Forum beat it to death last year when the whole thing was being negotiated. The deal was on and we had a new logo unvieled at last years banquet. Then a few weeks later it was maybe we can't use it because we haven't signed a contract and we may not sign it. That went on for a couple of months and there was a fair bit about the whole conflict of interest thing at that time.

Nitrofly
01-22-2008, 02:03 PM
How long is the contract for??
who owns the new logo KCBS
or MMA??

Ford
01-22-2008, 02:24 PM
not sure on the contract. I heard both 2 and 3 years. KCBS now owns the logo once they made the initial payment to MMA.

Bigdog
01-22-2008, 02:51 PM
What I like best about this discussion is that several board members have joined in. I applaud them for their work and hope that they are listening to the comments here. My main concern is to keep the fun in BBQ contests. Making too much a big business, like NASAR is a bad idea IMHO. But being smart and making the KCBS a better organization is a good idea. The formula for the KCBS is sound and works. Tampering with it can and may ruin it.

Ford
01-22-2008, 03:03 PM
My main concern is to keep the fun in BBQ contests. Making too much a big business, like NASAR is a bad idea IMHO. But being smart and making the KCBS a better organization is a good idea. The formula for the KCBS is sound and works. Tampering with it can and may ruin it.
Lets compare it to Poker! Big money and real athletes there just like us cooks. Just imagine the possibilities for promotion on t-shirts when most cooks wear XXL or more :biggrin:

Rolling Smoke
01-22-2008, 03:12 PM
Let's face it. Using NASCAR is a bad example for them to be using. Are they using it because everyone thinks they can drive a stock car, cause it looks like a everyday car? Or are they comparing using NASCAR where the sport is dominated by only 40 teams. I personally don't want it to be NASCAR, cause if I am not one of those 40 teams, then I don't get to play? Bad example...

Maybe they saw me passing you on the way home from Lynchburg.

Either way, I think the NASCAR comparison is a bad example because so much of NASCAR's revenue comes from the fans (e.g. ticket sales and branded items) due to the fact that they are a spectator sport. I compare barbeque comps more to BASS tournaments where the general public really doesn't see what's going on until weigh-in.

tonto1117
01-22-2008, 03:22 PM
Lets compare it to Poker! Big money and real athletes there just like us cooks. Just imagine the possibilities for promotion on t-shirts when most cooks wear XXL or more :biggrin:


Tonto and Bud are LOAO. Great analogy!!!!

I need an XXXXXL - please.

Greendriver
01-22-2008, 03:25 PM
I feel the BOD will get a handle on things and become more responsive and open with the members as they seem dedicated to the job and the sport. I'm just hoping that the future does not include a pro and am divisions as that would change the whole picture if you ask me. Part of the fun of it is having the possibility of only cooking a fraction of the contest that the top dogs do and still possibly finish ahead of them sometimes or maybe someday a Grand or Reserve. I know some on here have Grand right around the corner but yet have said in this thread that they would be happy with a Pro / Am split contest and I just see that as selling themselves and KCBS short a little. Some great ideas have been shared though that would make things more interesting such as the TOY being broken into divisions, etc. Hopefully the BOD will work through this mess and concentrate on things like that to help futher the KCBS the way it was meant to be. BTW, I think it would be good since there has been a fair amount of concern about the VISION for the future being tilted toward the top teams for some of those top teams to speak out directly as to whether they like the idea of being divided and have the little guys left behind.

Mitchelina
01-22-2008, 03:35 PM
Let's face it. Using NASCAR is a bad example for them to be using. Are they using it because everyone thinks they can drive a stock car, cause it looks like a everyday car? Or are they comparing using NASCAR where the sport is dominated by only 40 teams. I personally don't want it to be NASCAR, cause if I am not one of those 40 teams, then I don't get to play? Bad example...


EXACTLY what I was thinking. We may be small but we can stretch it from 8 to the required 10 contests per year, esp if we get a little sponsorship help and an occassional pair of extra hands. Under those circumstances hopefully someday we'll have a shot at TOY, too. 'Cause winning should be about cooking skills not sponsorship demands, expensive equipment/ingredients and politics.

I'd just like for KCBS to make sure the field is level for everyone and that the entry fees and competition costs stay reasonable. (Heck even NASCAR helps the teams try to reduce costs to keep competition as fair as they can, granted, with mixed results).

It sounds like there are several brethren who work around marketing or advertising, as do I. Guys, I really don't think MMA is the big bad wolf. Yes, they are in business to make money. Hey this is America. I have no problems with that. MMA may make recommendations but the BOD is responsible for making the decisions. There are definitely services that MMA could provide to members - what about an members only info area for aquiring team sponsors?

So where has MMA really blown it? They didn't understand their audience on Saturday night. Mike talked to banquet attendees as if we were all BOD's already on board with all the changes and "in the know". They probably suffer all little from "knowing it all" -- as I did when I was an AE for Pizza Hut's agency back in the day. It doesn't mean they don't have contributions to make. But they do need to know US - the KCBS members. The people who enable their paychecks. I think ALL the folks at MMA should have to cook with a team this summer - and not just the well equipped, well staffed thoroughbreds... send them on to a couple of scruff ponies like BBQ2! We can always use help with the dishes. :lol:

smoke-n-my-i's
01-22-2008, 04:23 PM
You have the option of going into the office and requesting a copy after proving you are a member or you can send a self addressed stamped envelope with a request for a copy. The by-laws state that they must provide it to you (standard in 501c filings). Same applies to the published financial statements that must be filed each year.

I was told when I called in my membership renewal, that there is coming a members only section. This would be a great place for this to be posted.

I agree whole hearted with you on this. Pat them on the back for the new ones but Sweep the old nonreturning ones under the rug. Hmmm I woud think that in order to grow at high speed you must retain what you have, otherwise you just spin your wheels.

Quality vs Quantity

I might be just full of crap. did I get off topic?


I agree. If they want the membership percentage of income, then they should also forfeit any that do not renew..... that would give them more of an incentive to push more quality for membership....

nancee
01-22-2008, 08:25 PM
The worst part of this discussion IMHO is that it is taking pace AFTER we just voted for BOD. I know some if not all of us might have voted differently.
nancee

MMA could definitely help KCBS accomplish their Mission. If you consider KCBSís bottom line to be the Mission Statement which is ďOur mission is to celebrate, teach, preserve, and promote barbecue as a culinary technique, sport and art form. We want barbecue to be recognized as America's Cuisine.Ē

MMAís job is to find outlets to promote this mission such as the article in Saveur Magazine and shows about BBQ on Food TV and the Travel channel. Finding sponsors for bbq competitions is also in line with this mission statement. Partnering with companies like Tabasco and Royal Oak will also help to spread awareness of the KCBS and BBQ in general.

Is it MMAís job to find and grow benefits for current members? Not necessarily. Thatís the job of the BOD. Is it MMAís job to communicate to the members whatís going on or to disclose their contract terms with the Membership. Not really thatís the job of the BOD.

Should MMA be in charge of the annual banquet? I donít see what they bring to the table in that regard. Iím curios why the BOD handed the reigns over to MMA and what they thought this would accomplish.

MMA is taking a lot of crap that perhaps should be directed at the KCBS board. There seems to be a major lack of communication between the BOD and the Membership. The Board Hired a Marketing company that if used correctly could help to grow our membership and spread the word about bbq to the masses.

Does the BOD have a set of goals for MMA to accomplish such as growing membership to x amount by y time? Are there any benchmarks in the contract? Have we seen any increase in Media attention in print or on television that can be attributed to MMA? There should be real goals and real ways to measure whether those goals have been accomplished.



Just saying MMA is bad and Mike Mcloud looks sleezy doesn't accomplish anything. We should look at ways this company can help the KCBS and Barbecue in general and communicate those ideas to the KCBS BOD. And we should expect the BOD to communicate with us.

Nitrofly
01-23-2008, 08:28 AM
Well the elections for the KCBS board 2009 have
begun now .. Let the current BOD know we members
are watching. I am hopeful things will change for the better
But the speech that stated this Thread happened at this years
annual KCBS banquet.

Scottie
01-23-2008, 09:36 AM
There has been a petition started to get 5 handsome, intelligent, debonair gentlemen from the Midwest to run for the Board. They were all sitting together at the awards banquet. :eusa_clap

All wanting to put the cook back in the KCBS... Just like NASCAR is getting rid of the violins and going back to banjo...

Scottie

A-Team in 2009

Rolling Smoke
01-23-2008, 09:59 AM
There has been a petition started to get 5 handsome, intelligent, debonair gentlemen from the Midwest to run for the Board. They were all sitting together at the awards banquet. :eusa_clap

All wanting to put the cook back in the KCBS... Just like NASCAR is getting rid of the violins and going back to banjo...

Scottie

A-Team in 2009

Having some experience in local politics, I would like to volunteer to be the campaign chairman for the Ohio delegates. I can ciruculate petitions, place yard signs and even setup a hospitality suite (complete with beverages and hostesses) when you stop here on the campaign trail.

We've got lots of barbecue groupees here in Ohio.

lunchlady
01-23-2008, 10:02 AM
... I think ALL the folks at MMA should have to cook with a team this summer - and not just the well equipped, well staffed thoroughbreds... send them on to a couple of scruff ponies like BBQ2! We can always use help with the dishes. :lol:


NOW YOU'RE TALKING !!!! It really is the best way to get to know us.

I know a bunch of them were at The Jack, but they were at the KCBS tent, maybe they could get out more while "on tour' this season.

Jeff_in_KC
01-23-2008, 10:04 AM
There has been a petition started to get 5 handsome, intelligent, debonair gentlemen from the Midwest to run for the Board. They were all sitting together at the awards banquet. :eusa_clap

All wanting to put the cook back in the KCBS... Just like NASCAR is getting rid of the violins and going back to banjo...

Scottie

A-Team in 2009

That's funny... my table had the only five handsome people I saw at the banquet and I don't recall myself, Plowboy, PigBoy, We'll Smoke U and Roo discussing that possibility but now that you mention it... :twisted:

Jeff_in_KC
01-23-2008, 10:06 AM
NOW YOU'RE TALKING !!!! It really is the best way to get to know us.

I know a bunch of them were at The Jack, but they were at the KCBS tent, maybe they could get out more while "on tour' this season.

Yeah, send McCloud out with us. We'll see to it that he has an eye opening weekend. :shock:

lunchlady
01-23-2008, 10:27 AM
This thread is 'wicked' awesome. I am SO glad that there are BOD members that are on here, not only reading, but responding as well.

I honestly think that they REALLY expected the contest organizer's to go for the extra money instead of 'siding' with the teams. Which they WOULD think, they are in marketing ($) after all.
The thing that did get me was that when Carolyn (KCBS) was asked about the member benefits, she handed over the microphone to McCloud (MMA). I felt a little bad, since I like Carolyn, and it seemed, to me anyway, that she was handing over the reins in a very symbolic way. I guess I was just hoping that KCBS could, and WOULD name them, seeing as I was the one defending member benefits on here just about a week ago. It didn't happen that way.

I too am drafting a professional-type e-mail, but I also think we should give the newer BoD members a chance to get acclimated and see where it goes from there.
It's about member representation right? ... so we have to tell them - and nicely is better folks -what we would/wouldn't like, otherwise, as stated before...
it's just bitchin'.

Plowboy
01-23-2008, 10:28 AM
Yeah, send McCloud out with us. We'll see to it that he has an eye opening weekend. :shock:

"You know where you are? You're in the jungle baby!"

Time to turn in chicken.

drbbq
01-23-2008, 10:34 AM
There has been a petition started to get 5 handsome, intelligent, debonair gentlemen from the Midwest to run for the Board. They were all sitting together at the awards banquet. :eusa_clap

All wanting to put the cook back in the KCBS... Just like NASCAR is getting rid of the violins and going back to banjo...

Scottie

A-Team in 2009

Well we talk about this every year but once again the three new BOD members aren't cooks. (I know, Carol cooked a couple this year but I don't think anyone considers her to be a cook)
So maybe we should support the idea of cooks being required to be members if we want cooks on the board.

BTW, I've been a member since 1991.

Scottie
01-23-2008, 10:39 AM
Let's face it. A cooking society is controlled by judges.

lunchlady
01-23-2008, 10:45 AM
Judges were the basic target of the hotel discount too. MOST KCBS members are judges, therefore that discount is very important to them, not necessarily to the cooks, who are not sleeping anyway. At least I don't...heheh.

There were quite a few cooks on the BoD slate, unfortunately they just didn't get voted in. On that note, my two votes went to cooks.

KC_Bobby
01-23-2008, 10:59 AM
I think ALL the folks at MMA should have to cook with a team this summer - and not just the well equipped, well staffed thoroughbreds...

Actually, this is a hell of a good idea. In my time working at an ad agency, we regularly went into the field with the clients - and yes, teams must vary as far as tools and accommodations. This is the best way to get hands on knowledge and full understanding of what you are marketing and promoting. And make sure some of them go to Warrensburg to enjoy some nice Midwestern dry heat in mid-July (with no shade, although it is on grass) as well as sending some to something like Fire On Ice to enjoy some cooler weather. Experience the extremes and one will fully understand the dedication to the hobby, err addiction.

BOD's, this is something worth serious value if the MMA reps show up in time to help set up, spend the night in a lawn chair, cot, tent, etc and stick around until awards/tear down is complete.

Scottie
01-23-2008, 11:01 AM
While it's good to have non-cooks. I believe that the majority should be cooks. Then again, I also believe that it should be elected by regions. But that is for a whole different thread... 8-)

scottyd
01-23-2008, 11:14 AM
Easy fella's you would kill the average Lad in the cooking enviorment that some of us have, I for on would refuse to run the Air. Just say it's a Jungle out there!

I am a CBJ and I think I need to cook with Ray for a weekend! What do ya think?

Bigdog
01-23-2008, 11:14 AM
The worst part of this discussion IMHO is that it is taking pace AFTER we just voted for BOD. I know some if not all of us might have voted differently.
nancee

Good point, but the important thing is that it is taking place and people on the current BOD are listening and participating.

drbbq
01-23-2008, 12:32 PM
I am a CBJ and I think I need to cook with Ray for a weekend! What do ya think?

Come on down. Be here by Friday at Noon and we'll cook.

Jeff_in_KC
01-23-2008, 12:40 PM
therefore that discount is very important to them, not necessarily to the cooks, who are not sleeping anyway. At least I don't...heheh.

If your endurance at comps is anything like it was at the parties Saturday night, I'm impressed! :lol:

How about requiring a person running for the BOD to have been a cook at least one season. At least they'd know where the heart and soul of the KCBS actually is that way. How can a director represent US fairly if they don't know why we believe the way we do?

stlgreg
01-23-2008, 02:36 PM
There has been a petition started to get 5 handsome, intelligent, debonair gentlemen from the Midwest to run for the Board. They were all sitting together at the awards banquet. :eusa_clap

All wanting to put the cook back in the KCBS... Just like NASCAR is getting rid of the violins and going back to banjo...

Scottie

A-Team in 2009

Indeed there was and I appreciate them stopping by my table to ask me:-D

pigmaker23
01-23-2008, 03:31 PM
the contract is for 24 months and is for $ 30,000 / Year


How long is the contract for??
who owns the new logo KCBS
or MMA??

Plowboy
01-23-2008, 04:16 PM
Master Judges must cook with a team before receiving their master judge certification.

I think every KCBS member should judge a contest and cook at a contest with a team. They should have completed the CBJ course as well. Same rules apply for BOD. If MMA is focused on existing members, they should do the same.

Plowboy
01-23-2008, 04:18 PM
Let's face it. A cooking society is controlled by judges.

And yet their coolers were outlawed. :rolleyes: I've always found it interesting that the majority of the body are judges, but the cooler rule was passed.

Scottie
01-23-2008, 04:19 PM
I have not really seen anything or heard them say anything about existing members. Well, I mean besides the great deals on hotel rooms. The talk was all about all the new members...

Jorge
01-23-2008, 04:23 PM
I think every KCBS member should judge a contest and cook at a contest with a team. They should have completed the CBJ course as well. Same rules apply for BOD. If MMA is focused on existing members, they should do the same.

Ever hear the phrase, "Be careful what you ask for."?:wink::lol:

Jeff_in_KC
01-23-2008, 06:02 PM
"You know where you are? You're in the jungle baby!"

Time to turn in chicken.

My signature turn-in time song! I can't wait to start all over again!

Ford
01-24-2008, 05:44 AM
And yet their coolers were outlawed. :rolleyes: I've always found it interesting that the majority of the body are judges, but the cooler rule was passed.
The rules meeting vots is only a recommendation to the BOD. They will make the decision at the Feb meeting on any rule changes. i'd say there a good chance they will leave it to the organizers.

lunchlady
01-24-2008, 12:30 PM
My signature turn-in time song! I can't wait to start all over again!

That is IT! I'm definitely gonna get out there to cook with you guys now!

Do you sing too? Or just not Karaoke?

ok... sorry I couldn't resist ... back on topic...

The_Kapn
01-24-2008, 04:04 PM
Well,

I have been watching this thread (and some others) and offering few comments.

But, all I have to say is:

"If I ever run for a BOD or other elected position---JUST SHOOT ME" :twisted:

Too much grief, thanks to the power of the Internet.

Y'all have fun!

TIM

Jeff_in_KC
01-25-2008, 09:06 AM
That is IT! I'm definitely gonna get out there to cook with you guys now!

Do you sing too? Or just not Karaoke?

ok... sorry I couldn't resist ... back on topic...

No, I don't sing... usually. If I've been hitting the Woodford Reserve Bourbon prior to turn-in (which I sometimes do because my hand tends to shake while I'm arranging meat in the boxes), there's a chance a line or two will get croaked (notice I didn't say "sung").

Just do me a favor... if you guys do decide to come out here to cook with us, just let us know plenty in advance so we can get lots of sleep before the contest. I'm afraid you'd keep us up all night like you did at the banquet. :twisted::lol::lol::lol:

Sledneck
01-25-2008, 01:32 PM
I am not bothered at all by the staement that was made. I am REALLY bothered that not one brethren in that room didnt follow up and heckle "Whether you like it or not....." with "IN MY PANTS"

HoDeDo
01-25-2008, 09:44 PM
No, I don't sing... usually. If I've been hitting the Woodford Reserve Bourbon prior to turn-in (which I sometimes do because my hand tends to shake while I'm arranging meat in the boxes), there's a chance a line or two will get croaked (notice I didn't say "sung").

Just do me a favor... if you guys do decide to come out here to cook with us, just let us know plenty in advance so we can get lots of sleep before the contest. I'm afraid you'd keep us up all night like you did at the banquet. :twisted::lol::lol::lol:

Two small notes:
1. He howls like a hound after drinking a bottle of cabo:twisted:

2. Michelle - You want him to get his beauty sleep!!! TRUST ME on this one. 8-)

bbqbull
01-25-2008, 10:36 PM
I am not bothered at all by the staement that was made. I am REALLY bothered that not one brethren in that room didnt follow up and heckle "Whether you like it or not....." with "IN MY PANTS"

:eek::eek: Im speechless ref; that comment.

Ya ever think that maybe some of us older and wiser folks dont brag about who we voted fore?

Guess my AARP subliminal training has kicked in, now im being blasted about the winners and loosers.

Sled.............................going silent here.:wink:

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
01-25-2008, 10:45 PM
Sled brake out the whistle!!! that way they can here the Breteren coming..you all know what I am saying,,,I hope to be a cbj by next years election ( if it helps!!)If not I will be casting a vote!!!

Sal

leanza
01-25-2008, 11:32 PM
I think I'll skip joining KCBS.

jminion
01-26-2008, 12:42 AM
the contract is for 24 months and is for $ 30,000 / Year

Not even close, 4 years and based on the numbers I crunched it will 5 times that amount for the total life of the contract.

Sawdustguy
01-26-2008, 03:34 AM
I kind of feel that Steve (Sledneck) said it the best.


MY .02....To all that voted good for you! From what i understood a guy by the name of Phil Rizzardi was running. From what i understand that same Phil Rizzardi lost. This is the same Phil Rizzardi that created this site isn't it? A place where everybody comes for free?? A place where you can get advice on any topic whether it be food , your front lawn, whatever and get many responses within minutes. A place some come to relax, blow off steam , for some get psychological help .... Share good experiences as well as tragedies. A place that creates friendships. A place to promote events and products. Phil does this without asking, taking away precious time from his family. Knowing all of this you would figure what the hell would be the big deal about ponying up a measly $35 to join the KCBS and cast a vote for him. Well it didn't happen and its a shame. It is not a requirement to join KCBS or any other organization to be a part of this site but it would of been a nice gesture and a very smart one with concern to the KCBS and its future. But it didn't happen and y'all still have a place to come and bitch about the KCBS as well as many other things. Good job!


We had our shot to get one of us on the BOD and we blew it. Merl, Jim Minion and Linda Mullane can't do it alone. Now it seems we will have the SOS. To you who say you aren't going to join the KCBS because of whats going on over there.......Phooey!!! Thats the wrong thing to do. Think about it.

tonto1117
01-26-2008, 07:57 AM
Not even close, 4 years and based on the numbers I crunched it will 5 times that amount for the total life of the contract.

Wow. Now some things are starting to become clearer.

Jeff_in_KC
01-26-2008, 10:32 AM
Here's the deal as it is to me... I have no problem at all with MMA making some money if they're doing some of the things WE as cooks want - if they're changing things to attract new members and sponsors and grow KCBS based on the mission statement that KCBS was founded upon. But don't come in an be changing everything as we know it and DEFINITELY don't be coming in here under false pretense that you're trying to help the KCBS for the better when you're really only interested in what you can bleed from us and how you can change us from a non-profit to big business down the line. As I see it, most non-profits don't need the services of a marketing company long term, if at all. If MMA can get dollar signs glowing in the eyes of KCBS by showing them how things could be, that only means more cash for MMA to get rich on in the future. Let's face it - we, who pay the bills of KCBS sure aren't going to get rich on any of this.

As for not joining KCBS, I agree with Guy - that is the complete WRONG stance to take. Definitely join KCBS and help those of us who don't like the looks of what we see make a positive impact on our organization. As I see it, we have a big role in all of this and we should use our influence because without cooks/teams, they have nothing. I don't mean to sound high and mighty about that but when you get right down to the bottom of things, the teams are the stars of the show. Contests exist because there are teams to cook them. The KCBS exists because there are contests to sanction and members to serve. And judges are judges because there are teams who enter the contests. So based on this, should our opinions matter? Should MMA listen to us? Should the board be held accountable to us and keep us in the loop about what's going on? Absolutely. We're a week into all the hellraising and questions being asked and I don't think we know any more than we did a week ago.

smoke-n-my-i's
01-26-2008, 11:19 AM
Not even close, 4 years and based on the numbers I crunched it will 5 times that amount for the total life of the contract.

Gee, and you thought they were in the business to just make it better for us :eek:

Now, how many of the MMA directors would come and work under these conditions along side any of us at a competition...

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/692/photo0119nb7.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo0119nb7.jpg)


And this was inside the tent at 2:30am.. with a heater running... you can imagine what is was just before daybreak...

motoeric
02-03-2008, 01:10 PM
In the best post I've read to date by Sledneck, he wrote how $35.00 to join the KCBS and have an opportunity to have an impact on the election of the BOD members was a small price to pay. If nothing else, it would have allowed people to vote for Phil, someone we all respect and are indebted to.

Congrats on the post Steve. Well written, thought out and certainly cogent.

I do want to mention that I checked into it prior to the interview with Merl and you had to be a member prior to the election starting. Following Steve's train of thought, if we are lucky enough to have Phil run against year, we should make a concerted effort to become members of the KCBS prior to the cut-off period.

Eric

Sledneck
02-05-2008, 07:16 AM
In the best post I've read to date by Sledneck, he wrote how $35.00 to join the KCBS and have an opportunity to have an impact on the election of the BOD members was a small price to pay. If nothing else, it would have allowed people to vote for Phil, someone we all respect and are indebted to.

Congrats on the post Steve. Well written, thought out and certainly cogent.

I do want to mention that I checked into it prior to the interview with Merl and you had to be a member prior to the election starting. Following Steve's train of thought, if we are lucky enough to have Phil run against year, we should make a concerted effort to become members of the KCBS prior to the cut-off period.

Eric The post you are referring to: http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=545320&postcount=56 the thread killer that no one seems to want to touch with a 10 foot pole
:rolleyes:

Jeff_in_KC
01-05-2009, 01:47 PM
Well, we're one year into this deal now, give or take a few days. I'm just curious about what you all think. What's changed for the better or worse? From my perspective, I haven't seen a whole lot different yet. The members-only section of the KCBS site finally became a reality with a little more than just when your dues are up and how to pay them. Nobody that I know of is charging an extra $25 for non-KCBS teams to enter a contest. So are we turned around and headed in the right direction that we, as members WANT to be headed? Seems that after all of this settled down, everything on the MMA/KCBS relationship front got really quiet most of the year. Maybe I was just too busy to notice?

JD McGee
01-05-2009, 07:19 PM
Whew!!! After reading a dozen or so posts to this thread all I have to say at this point is..."Ignorance is Bliss"...:twisted: I hope you folks get this mess straightened out before I join...IF I join. :eek: I can't imagine being a part of something with so much controversy. Our PNWBA seems a much better place all of a sudden! :-P

Jeff_in_KC
01-05-2009, 10:59 PM
Whew!!! After reading a dozen or so posts to this thread all I have to say at this point is..."Ignorance is Bliss"...:twisted: I hope you folks get this mess straightened out before I join...IF I join. :eek: I can't imagine being a part of something with so much controversy. Our PNWBA seems a much better place all of a sudden! :-P

JD I'm not so sure everything is as doom and gloom as it appeared a year ago. I'm just asking for opinions on where everything stands.

Bentley
01-05-2009, 11:12 PM
How do YOU feel being told your opinion doesn't matter? That they're going to do their thing whether YOU like it or not?

My opinion matters because I paid my membership dues.


Naaaw, just too easy a mark!

Juggy D Beerman
01-06-2009, 08:57 AM
Yo Jeff, One thing I am still upset with is the minimum number of contests required for teams to qualify for the team of the year awards. As of this writing, there were 4364 different teams on the list for the team of the year. Out of that total number, let's say 100 teams cooked in ten or more contests last year. This figures out to be 2.3% of all the teams that cooked in KCBS contests last year are eligible for the various ToY awards. (If only 50 teams qualified, that percentage rate is cut in half.)

This means that almost 98% of us that cooked in KCBS contests are not eligible for these awards. I don't think that is right, especially if cash prizes are to be awarded as mentioned in last year's speech. At the present moment, there are no cash awards with the ToY recognitions. I don't know if that idea of cash awards is still in the future plans or not.

If cash prizes are awarded, where will that money come from? Will it come from the money we pay for dues or will it come from higher sanctioning fees which will cause entry fees to go up? Why should 98% of us contestants contribute towards a prize fund that we are not eligible for?

If cash awards are to be given, I think there needs to be another qualifying division for teams that do not cook ten contests a year, but cook more than five or maybe even seven contests a season. This would allow more teams to be eligible to receive awards from a fund they contributed to. This could be considered a "junior" division of the ToY awards.

By no mean am I intending any disrespect to the teams that do qualify for the ToY awards. They worked hard to earn these recognitions and I congratulate them.

Beers for thought,

Juggy

Sledneck
01-06-2009, 09:07 AM
Not sure what they are working on but hey here is an idea.I just found out I was not eligible to vote the other day. WHy? I did not renew my membership back in October. You would think maybe an email would of gone out? I received emails from a few of the candidates so they obviously have an email list with me on it that they got from KCBS right? Supposedly a snail mail went out, i did not see it and maybe possibly it got lumped in with junk mail that gets thrown out. I sit here at a desk all day so I definetely would of noticed and renewed. if I recieved an email.

stlgreg
01-06-2009, 09:24 AM
I think most of the canidates get e-mail addresses from the web boards.
I did get emails reminding me to reup my membership.
FWIW, I also saw posts on the internet by Merl saying Dec. 15 was the dealine to renew or become a member and vote.

Spydermike72
01-06-2009, 09:42 AM
Not sure what they are working on but hey here is an idea.I just found out I was not eligible to vote the other day. WHy? I did not renew my membership back in October. You would think maybe an email would of gone out? I received emails from a few of the candidates so they obviously have an email list with me on it that they got from KCBS right? Supposedly a snail mail went out, i did not see it and maybe possibly it got lumped in with junk mail that gets thrown out. I sit here at a desk all day so I definetely would of noticed and renewed. if I recieved an email.

I just got an e-mail this morning to renew my KCBS membership. It also has a PayPal option... My membership expires in Feburary so I got it about a month ahead of time. Just an FYI FWIW...

Scottie
01-06-2009, 09:44 AM
Yo Jeff, One thing I am still upset with is the minimum number of contests required for teams to qualify for the team of the year awards. As of this writing, there were 4364 different teams on the list for the team of the year. Out of that total number, let's say 100 teams cooked in ten or more contests last year. This figures out to be 2.3% of all the teams that cooked in KCBS contests last year are eligible for the various ToY awards. (If only 50 teams qualified, that percentage rate is cut in half.)

This means that almost 98% of us that cooked in KCBS contests are not eligible for these awards. I don't think that is right, especially if cash prizes are to be awarded as mentioned in last year's speech. At the present moment, there are no cash awards with the ToY recognitions. I don't know if that idea of cash awards is still in the future plans or not.

If cash prizes are awarded, where will that money come from? Will it come from the money we pay for dues or will it come from higher sanctioning fees which will cause entry fees to go up? Why should 98% of us contestants contribute towards a prize fund that we are not eligible for?

If cash awards are to be given, I think there needs to be another qualifying division for teams that do not cook ten contests a year, but cook more than five or maybe even seven contests a season. This would allow more teams to be eligible to receive awards from a fund they contributed to. This could be considered a "junior" division of the ToY awards.

By no mean am I intending any disrespect to the teams that do qualify for the ToY awards. They worked hard to earn these recognitions and I congratulate them.

Beers for thought,

Juggy


Hoppy New Year Juggy!!!

My proposal was to get a sponsor to sponsor the Team of the Year Awards... That way, no ear marked "membership" funds would be used... They get sponsors for everything else, why not this?

Sledneck
01-06-2009, 09:45 AM
I just got an e-mail this morning to renew my KCBS membership. It also has a PayPal option... My membership expires in Feburary so I got it about a month ahead of time. Just an FYI FWIW...
I would of done that had I received it.

Jorge
01-06-2009, 09:49 AM
I would of done that had I received it.

If it makes you feel better, I'll forward mine to you and you can pay for it.

Solidkick
01-06-2009, 12:21 PM
Yo Jeff, One thing I am still upset with is the minimum number of contests required for teams to qualify for the team of the year awards. As of this writing, there were 4364 different teams on the list for the team of the year. Out of that total number, let's say 100 teams cooked in ten or more contests last year. This figures out to be 2.3% of all the teams that cooked in KCBS contests last year are eligible for the various ToY awards. (If only 50 teams qualified, that percentage rate is cut in half.)

This means that almost 98% of us that cooked in KCBS contests are not eligible for these awards. I don't think that is right, especially if cash prizes are to be awarded as mentioned in last year's speech. At the present moment, there are no cash awards with the ToY recognitions. I don't know if that idea of cash awards is still in the future plans or not.

If cash prizes are awarded, where will that money come from? Will it come from the money we pay for dues or will it come from higher sanctioning fees which will cause entry fees to go up? Why should 98% of us contestants contribute towards a prize fund that we are not eligible for?

If cash awards are to be given, I think there needs to be another qualifying division for teams that do not cook ten contests a year, but cook more than five or maybe even seven contests a season. This would allow more teams to be eligible to receive awards from a fund they contributed to. This could be considered a "junior" division of the ToY awards.

By no mean am I intending any disrespect to the teams that do qualify for the ToY awards. They worked hard to earn these recognitions and I congratulate them.

Beers for thought,

Juggy

Excellent post Juggy! I know the Belly Brothers just don't have the revenue to cook 10 contests...but we could cook 5, which is where I think a junior division number of contests cooked would be an excellent choice.....if you want to distinguish the the teams that can cook more than 10 contests from the ones that can cook 5, do it with the TOY prize money.....1/2 as many contests, 1/2 as much money.......
I could live with that........

Juggy D Beerman
01-09-2009, 03:07 AM
Yo Scottie and Solidkick, Sorry for the tardy replies. I don't spend as much time on-line as I used to.

Scottie, I think having a sponsor provide the funds for cash prizes for the ToY awards is a great idea. As I stated earlier, I do have a problem with those funds coming from the "membership" funds.

Thanks for the kind words on my post, Solid Kick. I think there needs to be a "junior" division as well. Not every team in the country can cook ten contests in a season. Besides the time and financial constraints, there are areas in the country that don't have one-third the contests we do here in Missouri. The current format is not fair to these members.

Lager,

Juggy

Neal
01-09-2009, 09:56 AM
As of this writing, there were 4364 different teams on the list for the team of the year. Out of that total number, let's say 100 teams cooked in ten or more contests last year. This figures out to be 2.3% of all the teams that cooked in KCBS contests last year are eligible for the various ToY awards. (If only 50 teams qualified, that percentage rate is cut in half.)

But how many of those 4364 teams only cooked one contest? Two? How many even know what TOY is or even care? How many are KCBS members? You get points just for cooking in a KCBS contest, which would mean some of the teams that just show up to party are among the over 4300 teams acquiring TOY points.

Around the KC area, contests like Lenexa, the American Royal, Great American BBQ and North Kansas City would account for literally hundreds of teams acquiring TOY points who cook in one contest or maybe two a year (probably just for the party). With entry numbers for those contests ranging from nearly 100 teams to almost 500, that's a lot of disinterested teams. Now think about those types of teams that are sprinkled into every contest every weekend across the country. That really skews the percentages of KCBS member teams among the total contestants who have an interest in TOY.

I think in coming years we will see better way to track TOY points among KCBS member teams. I will reserve judgment on this issue until then. In the mean time, I don't think requiring 10 contest scores to qualify for TOY is out of line.

I have no problem with the way the system works now. Teams that cook 20, 25 or even 30 or more contests should be the ones recognized at the end of the year. They have worked a lot harder and sacrificed more than a team that cooked 5 or 6 or 7 contests (or the 16 contests that my team cooked, for that matter). I do not mean to disrespect a team that cooks 5 contests a year - I have nothing but the utmost appreciation for any team that chooses to cook in one of our KCBS contests, follows the rules and respects their fellow competitors. But you almost have to make a conscience decision to try and win a TOY award before the season even starts - and you have to respect that decision and dedication as well.

Roo-B-Q'N
01-09-2009, 10:39 AM
Well, we're one year into this deal now, give or take a few days. I'm just curious about what you all think. What's changed for the better or worse? From my perspective, I haven't seen a whole lot different yet. The members-only section of the KCBS site finally became a reality with a little more than just when your dues are up and how to pay them. Nobody that I know of is charging an extra $25 for non-KCBS teams to enter a contest. So are we turned around and headed in the right direction that we, as members WANT to be headed? Seems that after all of this settled down, everything on the MMA/KCBS relationship front got really quiet most of the year. Maybe I was just too busy to notice?

We cooked one contest this year, it was a first time contest, that charged (or at least listed the charge on the entry form) the Non-KCBS fee. So that information did not get dispersed to all organizers.

Jorge
01-09-2009, 11:04 AM
Are things better? I don't know.

I know that when I look at the 'benefits' the only thing I see is the Comfort Inn discount, even though more were supposed to be coming. In the current economy I can understand how it might be difficult to secure new discounts.

Has the relationship with MMA been a positive one? I don't think I can form an educated opinion without seeing the financials. It's a business relationship, and the bottom line is money.

TOY? I'm on the fence. I know folks on both sides of the cooking spectrum. Maybe I'm an elitist but I've got to believe that the true TOY is the team that is out there cooking almost every weekend. They make the greatest effort, and I believe they have earned that recognition. I also think that there should be recognition for those that just can't get out there to cook as often for whatever reason. Whether it is by recognizing the highest scoring average over a smaller # of contests or some other formula, those folks are just as deserving. The issues are fixable.

While things aren't perfect, they could be a lot worse.

Mike - CSBBBQ
01-09-2009, 11:51 AM
Would I like to be TOY? You bet I would! However, we went from a couple of comps a year to 14 last year. It was a blast and was all we could handle. Doubt we will make that many this year but love the contests and meeting everyone. My dream is to someday be able to compete more often and in different parts of the country. Until then my hat is off to those that are able and dedicate themselves to competing 20 to 30 times (or more) a year. I believe one of them should be TOY if they are able to do well in 10 contests. From what I've seen and read, the competition at the comps is just getting better and better. Just my .02:-D

monty3777
01-09-2009, 12:37 PM
I cooked one event last year and will do four this year. The thought that my team would even be mentioned in TOY standings is ridiculous. Why not limit those who are listed in TOY standings to the top 100 or something thus eliminating those of us who are more or less hobbiest? Sorry if this has been mentioned. It seems that this thread has been active for a FARKING YEAR so I skipped a few hundred replies :)

Neal
01-09-2009, 01:19 PM
I think there needs to be a "junior" division as well. Not every team in the country can cook ten contests in a season.

Hey Juggy - This biggest problem I would have with a system that includes a second division for teams who cook less than 10 contests would be this... Say you have a very good team that has finished well in the current TOY set up. Under this proposed system, what will stop a team like from cooking 9 contests under one team name or head cook's name, and another 9 contests under a different name and so on?

It's really no different than the "bottom feeder" guys who wait to enter contests until they see who else has entered. As you know, around KC 2 or 3 or even more contests can be happening withing an hour's drive on any given weekend...it's not unheard of for someone to call all of the organizers and ask to hold a spot for them, then wait to see which opposing teams show up to each one and go to the contest where they feel they have the best chance to win.

I also think that there should be recognition for those that just can't get out there to cook as often for whatever reason.

But Jorge, Isn't the best recognition winning a contest or being called for an award and finishing higher than one of the perennial TOY contenders? I would rather win head-to-head than on paper.

Jorge
01-09-2009, 01:28 PM
But Jorge, Isn't the best recognition winning a contest or being called for an award and finishing higher than one of the perennial TOY contenders? I would rather win head-to-head than on paper.

I can agree with that, but don't see how some sort of additional recognition for teams that cook fewer events would negate that satisfaction.

In my mind the teams that go out and cook week in, and week out, and win consistently are the big dogs in the game. Recognition from others that don't have the time, or resources does nothing to diminish the recognition that those more active teams have earned.

Scottie
01-09-2009, 01:31 PM
The way I look at it.. And yes I know I sometime shave disorted views. but I would look at it like the sauce contest at the Royal... The results really muddy the waters of who won best sauce... As there is about 20 different winners in the categories...

Jorge
01-09-2009, 01:57 PM
The way I look at it.. And yes I know I sometime shave disorted views. but I would look at it like the sauce contest at the Royal... The results really muddy the waters of who won best sauce... As there is about 20 different winners in the categories...


I'm looking at one additional award, or one additional Top Ten etc... In my mind the big dogs still come out on top based on the time and effort and everything else that comes with that.

The teams that cook all of those consecutive weekends, and continue to remain at the top and consistent have earned their place at the top of the game.

A team that cooks 5 or 6 events and wins 3 or 4 of them deserves some recognition, as well, in my opinion.

Jeff_in_KC
01-09-2009, 02:20 PM
I kinda disagree with you guys that those who cook 25 or 30 contests a year deserve to win TOY because of the effort they've put in. Because if a team that cooks say eight contests a year works their butt off practicing when they aren't competing, judging to learn what judges find good and bad and they end up scoring enough points to make the top ten, wouldn't they actually deserve it more than a team that cooks thirty contests? I mean seriously! It you're good enough to do in eight events what another team does in 30 events, my money's with the small guy! I don't know how you can say someone deserves to get TOY just because they have the money and sponsors to cook more than someone else.

PimpSmoke
01-09-2009, 09:27 PM
I think everyone here needs to look at WHY we are here and remember it. I haven't seen a post by Phil and if anyone should have an opinion it's Mary. KCBS has problems..well, whats new? That's probably why some of us choose not to join. Cook with your buds, get together and pay the entry fees and have a good time? Maybe get a trophy? That's whats it's about right? Being recognized for your cooking by your peers? Oh that's right most CBJ's have never cooked a contest ......sorry. I guess I'll take my old dog opinion and shove it in my ass. But, I will say that the current KCBS situation has little to do with the Brethren.......at least what I know of the Brethren. Cook with your Brothers and enjoy yourself........anything else is masturbation.

Jeff_in_KC
01-10-2009, 12:18 AM
Damn pimp, you have a way with words! LOL!

PimpSmoke
01-10-2009, 08:11 AM
It was a bit rash. I'm not downing the discussion by any means, it's a necessary one. I just have a picture in my head of some of you sitting at your keyboards grinding your teeth in frustration. So, if the current BOD doesn't get ya what ya want, vote them out. But don't get so pissed in the meantime. This stuff takes time and doesn't happen overnight. Corporatization of anything is bad, I'll agree. Sorry for going off half smoked.

monty3777
01-10-2009, 09:11 AM
Cook with your Brothers and enjoy yourself........anything else is masturbation.

Wait a second. So it's masturbate or do it with my brothers? Where I come from we got words for that :eek:

nthole
01-10-2009, 09:15 AM
We cooked one contest last year because of a bunch of date conflicts. We came in 3444. That means at least a THOUSAND teams that are on the list likely only cooked 1 contest.

Now I'm not saying that we deserve to be in the running or ToY. But to say that maybe two teams only cooked one contest is crazy. A quarter of the list only cooked one contest.

I agree that those that cook maybe 5 or more should be eligible. The way I see it, the only fair way to do it is to take all your points and divide it by the number of contests attended. Best average score wins. But I am ok with setting some sort of minimum threshold for eligible entries. However, I think 10 is too high. Personally I'd say take teams that have cooked 6+ contests, and then take their best 5 scores and take the average of those 5. You cook more, your average will likely increase, and you don't get hurt by a set of bad judges at the odd contest. You cook six, then your top 5 count.

nthole
01-10-2009, 09:16 AM
We cooked one contest this year, it was a first time contest, that charged (or at least listed the charge on the entry form) the Non-KCBS fee. So that information did not get dispersed to all organizers.


The Washington Missouri contest this year states on the entry form that you MUST be KCBS registered to compete.

Double D's BBQ
01-10-2009, 09:20 AM
I think if you're going to restrict the Team of the Year Award to those that cook 20, 30, or 40 contests a year then you ought to count all the contest. Championship cooks do not need 20-30 Mulligans a year!

nthole
01-10-2009, 09:23 AM
I think if you're going to restrict the Team of the Year Award to those that cook 20, 30, or 40 contests a year then you ought to count all the contest. Championship cooks do not need 20-30 Mulligans a year!

Then throw out the one lowest score for everyone and then divide by contests competed in, starting from a threshold of 6 contests.

Editted to add:
The best way to test something like this is to take the past couple years of competitions and run the numbers in a simulation and see what effect it has on the complete placing list. You don't want to see teams necessarily move 400 or 500 places, but if the overall movement is that no one really goes up or down more than 50 places, then I would say it might be more fair. Course, that viewpoint is all going to depend on which way you move! You will NEVER make everyone happy with a change because someone is always going to move down and they won't like that.

Podge
01-10-2009, 09:30 AM
This is an interesting topic. "Change.....weather you like it or not"... it's been a year, nothing has changed except how TOY is figured. Same bickering, same closed door BOD meetings, and same whining on how KCBS does things.. This is not change, it's more of the same.

One thing I'm glad that's not changed is that I still have contests to go to this year, and they are getting closer and closer to my house, still get to see my freinds, and still get a chance to compete and win money to pay for this hobby... I hope that never changes.

It's just BBQ folks.

Double D's BBQ
01-10-2009, 09:54 AM
I'm happy with BBQ too Podge and hope constructive criticism or suggestions for improvement is not considered whining. I don't think it is. I certainly have no hope of ever being team of the year and it certainly doesn't stop me from competing.

Bottom line there is no perfect system but I think there are better systems and I for one like to kick around ideas (maybe I should be a promotor instead of a competitor). Who knows one just might take off. I still like the idea, I just wish Chris Lilly was posting here (maybe I'll email him). The idead would be to use something like we currently have (i.e. Chris's BBQ Championship Series program that is currently undergoing some revamping) and use it to determine a true national BBQ championship, it doesn't even have to be KCBS. Take the top 32 or sixty four teams in the country and run it like the NCAA tournament (as determined by counting all contests - No Mulligans). I guarantee you that in the top 64 teams there'll be a Cinderella team or two which will make it very exciting. Designate brackets, geographic regions, seeding all that good stuff. Lets have a series of head to head competitions with an eventual National Championship showdown between the top 2 pros in the country. Will people still argue? Sure maybe those ranked 65 and below (we could even accommodate a cook in (between team #64 and #65 to be held in Dayton Ohio in the parking lot of UD Arena, just like the current tournament). Lots of excitement and money would be generated by such an event and it would open up the world of compeition BBQ to a lot of people. I know a lot of people will scoff at this but I'm old enough to remember when the NCAA tournament was only like 24 teams and the finals were held on Saturday afternoon on ABC Wild World of Sports. I guess what I'm saying is this doesn't have to be done overnight. College Basketball was big then but expanding the field made it bigger and the tournament a national event. Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight, Final Four, and the National BBQ Championship. We could have even have bands (playing Go Team Go) and cheerleaders and fans taunting cooks with balloons as the prepare their entry for turn in. I get excited just thinking about it! What do you think?

nthole
01-10-2009, 10:26 AM
Kind of expensive though. That means 6 rounds of contests for the teams that do make the tournament. With travel and meat costs that's a couple extra thousand $ if you are "invited", plus you have to accomodate specific dates.

But I do like the idea of a "playoff". Wonder if you could somehow get sponsors that could at least alleviate some of the teams additional costs.

Double D's BBQ
01-10-2009, 11:03 AM
It would be definitely expensive but if you do it through a televison program on cable I think you could get the money to fund it. Get big buck sponsors like Weber, Kingsford, and all the beer companies. You could even have product placements like the clonesickles. It could be done. Just have to talk to the right people. I'm going to send an email to Chris Lilly and John Markus and see if there might be an intrest. John is a big time Emmy Award winning TV Producer who is a BBQ competitor and produced such hits as The Cosby Show, The Larry Sanders Show, The All Star Barbecue Showdown, and Barbecue Championship Series. I would like to see certified judges though, no French Chefs throwing lobsters at the audience.:shock::-D

lunchlady
01-12-2009, 03:18 PM
let us know what he says...

lunchlady
01-12-2009, 03:30 PM
(disclaimer -Firstly.. CONGRATS TO THE TOY WINNERS!
This is not meant to take away what they have done.)

well, after a year I'm not seeing that much change either.

The ToY was revamped to reward teams that cook MANY KCBS events per year.
Not 5.
Doesn't anyone else remember - this is the same speech which included "wouldn't you like BBQ to become like NASCAR" ????

ToY is rewarding the exact teams that KCBS WANTS to reward... period.

For example... not to talk about us, BUT I'm gonna...

last year we did either 10 or 12 KCBS contests, they only used five, ended up 20th in KCBS ToY overall. AMAZING for a NorthEast team.

THIS YEAR we signed up for ten, two were cancelled, and we only got 8 in... better finishes this year in all 8 though. We ended up 134th, or so depending on the day you look.
We are never EVER gonna be able to get that close again with the new criteria. There just aren't the amount of contests, or the amount of teams in this part of the country. And we don't even stay here.. we travel pretty far out.

So, do I think much has changed... not really.

Do I think they changed what they wanted to? yes.

Jeff, thanks for resurrecting this thread... I LOVE doom and gloom in the winter.

Jeff_in_KC
01-12-2009, 06:46 PM
(disclaimer -Firstly.. CONGRATS TO THE TOY WINNERS!
This is not meant to take away what they have done.)

well, after a year I'm not seeing that much change either.

The ToY was revamped to reward teams that cook MANY KCBS events per year.
Not 5.
Doesn't anyone else remember - this is the same speech which included "wouldn't you like BBQ to become like NASCAR" ????

ToY is rewarding the exact teams that KCBS WANTS to reward... period.

For example... not to talk about us, BUT I'm gonna...

last year we did either 10 or 12 KCBS contests, they only used five, ended up 20th in KCBS ToY overall. AMAZING for a NorthEast team.

THIS YEAR we signed up for ten, two were cancelled, and we only got 8 in... better finishes this year in all 8 though. We ended up 134th, or so depending on the day you look.
We are never EVER gonna be able to get that close again with the new criteria. There just aren't the amount of contests, or the amount of teams in this part of the country. And we don't even stay here.. we travel pretty far out.

So, do I think much has changed... not really.

Do I think they changed what they wanted to? yes.

Jeff, thanks for resurrecting this thread... I LOVE doom and gloom in the winter.

Ahh but hope springs eternal... that's why they call it the Spring! :lol: Winter's doom and gloom blossoms into "what was that we were worried about last winter?" :wink:

Bastey Boy
01-13-2009, 02:33 PM
I LOVE doom and gloom in the winter.

Smells like...napalm!