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nthole
01-13-2008, 09:22 AM
So out of curiosity, minus the onion used in this, could you turn this in as competition chicken? I'd be curious how this would do.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32305

If I were judging I'm not sure what sort of appearance score this gets. It certainly does look tasty. I would think texture should be pretty good.

Would what you are doing to the skin in a pan even over a charcoal grill be legal?

I think it would be interesting to try it just to see how it would get scored.

MilitantSquatter
01-13-2008, 09:28 AM
While I'm sure the pulled chicken as prepared in the link is delicious and I'd especially love one of those sandwiches, I just can't see it performing well at contests on a consistent basis.

Not worth it IMO.

Jeff_in_KC
01-13-2008, 09:35 AM
I agree with Vinny... looks awesome but not for comps. In this particular time in KCBS history, you turn in thighs or you get hammered almost every time with a few exceptions.

scottyd
01-13-2008, 09:43 AM
I agree with Jeff and Vinny pulled chicken is a sign you burned your skin or over cooked your chicken at a contest. just my .02

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
01-13-2008, 10:04 AM
We actually tried it twice, not because it was burnt, we wanted to be different. didnt do well/didnt do really bad either. I think judges are "trained" to look for thighs and all else doesnt have the eye apeal.

lunchlady
01-13-2008, 10:17 AM
They're not exactly 'trained' to look for thighs, but it is what MOST people turn in.

If you dare to be different... be prepared, and TELL YOUR REP AHEAD OF TIME.
(DAL mod ~ I speak from experience)

Although, there are a few teams up here that are turning in wings or even drums, and I have heard there was a slight comeback with breasts. I am not sure how they scored, you'd have to ask them, or maybe they will chime in...

It's all in how well you cook them, IMO.

tntitan
01-13-2008, 04:15 PM
as a judge chicken is one you got to be sure it is cooked so i would most likey not taste it because the sauce hides if is cooked or not

smoke-n-my-i's
01-13-2008, 06:00 PM
They're not exactly 'trained' to look for thighs, but it is what MOST people turn in.

If you dare to be different... be prepared, and TELL YOUR REP AHEAD OF TIME.
(DAL mod ~ I speak from experience)

Although, there are a few teams up here that are turning in wings or even drums, and I have heard there was a slight comeback with breasts. I am not sure how they scored, you'd have to ask them, or maybe they will chime in...

It's all in how well you cook them, IMO.

I did drums last time out. What a mistake.... they in my opinion, turned out great... everyone I let try them loved them....BUT, the judges didn't. Out of 42 teams, mine came in 42nd..... I guess drums didn't do as good and the thighs.

I did them as I normally do thighs, which come in usually in the middle of the pack. Not the drums. So, back to thighs for me. Stay with the "standard". Don't go against the judging standard. My opinion for what it is worth.

Bill

jtfisher63
01-13-2008, 06:41 PM
as a judge chicken is one you got to be sure it is cooked so i would most likey not taste it because the sauce hides if is cooked or not

Huh? Are you saying that at a contest that you are judging, you wouldn't taste pulled sauced chicken because you don't know if it is cooked? If so, how do you determine that any of the chicken you try is cooked through?

nthole
01-13-2008, 09:14 PM
Huh? Are you saying that at a contest that you are judging, you wouldn't taste pulled sauced chicken because you don't know if it cooked? If so, how do you determine that any of the chicken you try is cooked through?

Agreed. I've never seen a thigh turn-in box that I could tell was "cooked" all the way through. For all I know it's a raw piece of chicken under a grilled skin. If you're a judge and you won't eat a sauced piece of meat because you're afraid that's hiding whether it's cooked or not stop judging. All you'd have to do is take the piece and tear it and you'd know if it was cooked! :mad:

CharlieBeasley
01-14-2008, 06:41 AM
Just a thought as a relatively new judge 6 contest I was not trained to look for any piece of chicken just shown what to look for and would judge your chicken fairly. That said as a judge there is a lot of personal opinion in judging and a lot of I've done it this way for x years and that is the rule (not it isn't it is a personal preference) so competition must know the foundation of judges. I would not mind seeing (I hear the groans) a discussion on BBQ and what the real rules should be (I do not put lettuce on my BBQ so why should I display it on a bead of lettuce and not a bed of slaw?) etc.

Ford
01-14-2008, 07:01 AM
as a judge chicken is one you got to be sure it is cooked so i would most likey not taste it because the sauce hides if is cooked or not
I do believe if you were to post your CBJ # the KCBS would be interested in pulling your certification.

Huh? Are you saying that at a contest that you are judging, you wouldn't taste pulled sauced chicken because you don't know if it is cooked? If so, how do you determine that any of the chicken you try is cooked through?
I think the majority of judges still trust the cooks and take a bite. Worst case if red juice somes out and you spit. But I have heard of many judges now tearing the chicken meat off the bone before starting to eat it. It only takes a few idiots turning in undercooked chicken to get judges doing stuff like this.

willkat98
01-14-2008, 07:39 AM
I turn in shredded chicken all the time and it scores very well

Smokin Gator
01-14-2008, 07:50 AM
I have only judged on comp so I certainly am not the voice of experience. At the one I did though one box had a bunch of pulled chicken with the thighs on top. It was a very nice looking box and I scored it highly. The thigh and the pulled meat were both good. I noticed that every judge at the table took some of the pulled meat.

I'm not sure I would do just pulled meat at a comp as that is a little too far out on the limb in my opinion, but I wouldn't hesitate to do pulled meat as a base.

billm
01-14-2008, 08:12 AM
unfortunately a lot of judges are very suspicious of anything different..meaning anything out of the norm must mean you screwed something up in the cooking process therefore you must be covering up which is a shame because thats NOT whats taught in the CBJ classes. Everything is suppose to be judged on its own merits. because of this line of thinking that ive seen at judges tables I would not turn in pulled chicken.

nthole
01-14-2008, 10:27 AM
I have only judged on comp so I certainly am not the voice of experience. At the one I did though one box had a bunch of pulled chicken with the thighs on top. It was a very nice looking box and I scored it highly. The thigh and the pulled meat were both good. I noticed that every judge at the table took some of the pulled meat.

I'm not sure I would do just pulled meat at a comp as that is a little too far out on the limb in my opinion, but I wouldn't hesitate to do pulled meat as a base.

That sounds like a pretty interesting idea. Might give that a try as well. The point though mostly of the pulled chicken idea is to find a way to handle the rubber skin issue by utilizing a different method. We cook about 24 thighs and usually get 6 good consistent looking thighs and the skin has been fine. But we were just trying to think of a different approach to give something new a try.

Podge
01-14-2008, 02:58 PM
My theory/opinion is, is that if you don't turn in at least 6 thighs, you are basically telling a judge first off that you don't know how the game is played, and must be one of those good time locals who are turning in something for their first contest ever. Might be the best tasting chicken ever, but you're not going to be scored accordingly in most cases. Now, there are some good judges out there who would base their score on each sample's merit, but I've heard way too many stories someone going against the grain and failing. Stick to what typically does good, IMO.

Jeff_in_KC
01-14-2008, 09:22 PM
My theory/opinion is, is that if you don't turn in at least 6 thighs, you are basically telling a judge first off that you don't know how the game is played, and must be one of those good time locals who are turning in something for their first contest ever. Might be the best tasting chicken ever, but you're not going to be scored accordingly in most cases. Now, there are some good judges out there who would base their score on each sample's merit, but I've heard way too many stories someone going against the grain and failing. Stick to what typically does good, IMO.


I would listen to this man without a doubt!

beam boys bbq
01-14-2008, 09:55 PM
neil

i would try it and see what the points are
what do you have to loose
i have allways wone when i was thingking out side of the box

my @ cents

york

nthole
01-14-2008, 10:07 PM
My theory/opinion is, is that if you don't turn in at least 6 thighs, you are basically telling a judge first off that you don't know how the game is played, and must be one of those good time locals who are turning in something for their first contest ever. Might be the best tasting chicken ever, but you're not going to be scored accordingly in most cases. Now, there are some good judges out there who would base their score on each sample's merit, but I've heard way too many stories someone going against the grain and failing. Stick to what typically does good, IMO.

My problem with this statement is that the rules of the game state very clearly to those responsible for maintaining it's integrity that they must judge the entry as it is turned in without prejudice as to what others are turning in or what some might consider to be a standard.

I guess this has digressed into the age old judging argument. And I agree anything but thighs is adding risk to your score. The thing is that's pretty sad.

I think first comp next season we're gonna give turning the thighs in on top of a pulled mixture described from the first post and see how that goes. If that makes the overall scores that we've gotten for chicken go up a bit then it'll be worth it.

Jeff_in_KC
01-14-2008, 10:22 PM
My problem with this statement is that the rules of the game state very clearly to those responsible for maintaining it's integrity that they must judge the entry as it is turned in without prejudice as to what others are turning in or what some might consider to be a standard.

I guess this has digressed into the age old judging argument. And I agree anything but thighs is adding risk to your score. The thing is that's pretty sad.

How are you going to enforce this though? No judge is going to admit to judging down because someone turned in something out of the ordinary. It's the same thing with sliced brisket... you turn in slices that are 1/2 inch thick because that's how you like to slice them and some judges are going to ASSUME you overcooked it and are trying to keep the slices from falling apart when picked up. Again, no one is going to admit that's why they scored down (unless they're not playing with a full deck). That being said, I believe there should be some standards. If you can't judge on personal preference and there are no standards, THEN what do you have left? There are no easy solutions.

Dale P
01-15-2008, 07:42 AM
There are no perfect answers. We have to trust the judges and just make sure there is beer in the cooler, and it will be OK.

Podge
01-15-2008, 08:50 AM
My problem with this statement is that the rules of the game state very clearly to those responsible for maintaining it's integrity that they must judge the entry as it is turned in without prejudice as to what others are turning in or what some might consider to be a standard.

I guess this has digressed into the age old judging argument. And I agree anything but thighs is adding risk to your score. The thing is that's pretty sad.

I think first comp next season we're gonna give turning the thighs in on top of a pulled mixture described from the first post and see how that goes. If that makes the overall scores that we've gotten for chicken go up a bit then it'll be worth it.


Yeah, it is sad that it is what it is... now, if you had some phenominal white meat chicken, and present it like you sad, i think that might give you an edge. but if the white meat isn't what you'd expect to turn out, just don't turn it in, you still have good thighs. Kind of like brisket: unless the burnt ends are great, don't turn it in with the slices. and since i can't cook burnt ends worth a damn, i turn in just slices.

ihbobry
01-15-2008, 09:48 AM
My theory/opinion is, is that if you don't turn in at least 6 thighs, you are basically telling a judge first off that you don't know how the game is played, and must be one of those good time locals who are turning in something for their first contest ever. .

While your likely very right I think it is wrong for a judge to try to psychoanylize a cook based on his entry. Another post noted "different" may mean cover up.

They should stop thinking and eat the dang chicken/pork/brisket/ribs.

lunchlady
01-15-2008, 04:09 PM
They should stop thinking and eat the dang chicken/pork/brisket/ribs.

Amen to that Brother!!! :rolleyes:

eagle697
01-15-2008, 09:12 PM
my team is thinking of starting to pull chicken. Our thighs are turning out ok, but we are thinking of pulling. At The first contest we went to last year, the chicken category was won by a pulled entry. We will see. I tried the pulled that started the thread and loved it. not sure about competition but it was great in the backyard.

Puppyboy
01-16-2008, 07:35 AM
When I judge, I do not down the score for other cuts of chicken. I actually enjoy seeing the variations and as long as the entry stands up for it self, I score it appropriately. I have scored other cuts very well when they deserve it. IMO, some judges get use to seeing a specific cut then get scared when the variation comes along.

You know your team and it's food. It you are always getting the calls, change very little. If you never got a call what do you have to loose with taking the chance?

ZBQ
01-16-2008, 08:41 AM
I think the majority of judges still trust the cooks and take a bite. Worst case if red juice somes out and you spit. But I have heard of many judges now tearing the chicken meat off the bone before starting to eat it. It only takes a few idiots turning in undercooked chicken to get judges doing stuff like this.

I agree with you Ford, that the majority of judges still trust the cooks. Although I don't necessarily view the judges tearing the chicken off the bone instead of taking a bite as a bad thing. Maybe it is a blessing in disguise. The elusive "crispy, bite through skin" is NOT a requirement. In my judging class the instructor adamantly said that you should NOT score down if the the skin is not crispy and bite though. Maybe that concept is finally getting through to some of the judges and they don't feel it is necessary to take a bite from the bone.

I have watched when I table captained and it was a 50/50 mix of biters/pullers but I also noted that most of the ones who pulled, tried the skin too. I also noted that the ones who pulled the meat from the bone didn't seem to be testing to see if the chicken was done. It looked to me like they were more concerned with getting their faces messy. I did see a couple of them who actually wiped thier hands between tasting each entry, which I though was good so they don't get the taste of one entry on the other.

I am thinking of turning in a mixed box this year.
Do the standard thighs but also include something else like pulled or a skinless boneless breast.
The family goes nuts over my chicken breasts. But most likely pulled.

Just my .02, nothing more.

Stoke&Smoke
01-16-2008, 12:55 PM
Any time I judge, I judge the tray by how I think it appears. Granted, it seems most folks turn in 6 shellacked thighs, usually on parsley. But my task as a judge is to judge on what I think is an attractive presentation. So if it's breast, or pulled, I will never downgrade it on appearance.
As to taste and texture, most people IMHO, do thighs because they are the easiest part to consistently cook well, so they remain tasty and juicy. Breasts dry out, and for some reason, folks rarely use legs either
Although the pulled chicken looked tasty, I want to taste the chicken, not the sauce. If the sauce overpowers the meat, be it on a leg, thigh, pulled, whatever, I'll be downgrading the score on taste.

We're going to try competition the first time this year, and at least for the first contest, we will be turning in something other than thighs. If we score badly, next time we won't, but ya never know unless you try!

butts a fire
01-16-2008, 01:04 PM
This post had really got me thinking about doing some pulled chicked at our next comp. We have never gotten a call on chicken so I don't think a little experimenting will hurt our score anyway. I am thinking about the combo box where you have thighs and pulled chicken. We'll see how it goes.

Ford
01-16-2008, 02:03 PM
This post had really got me thinking about doing some pulled chicked at our next comp. We have never gotten a call on chicken so I don't think a little experimenting will hurt our score anyway. I am thinking about the combo box where you have thighs and pulled chicken. We'll see how it goes.
I spent 5 years and never got a chicken call then in year 6 I got a 7th place chicken. I tried hot, grilled, boneless skin on breasts, and it just didn't matter. Last year I had a DNP, 1st, 2nd, 1st and 6th. In March last year I took the Lotta Bull class. It more than paid for itself in chicken prize money alone. And there is a reason he's always right up there in Chicken TOY. I'm now like Mike and just cook 10 trimmed thighs at a contest whereas before I cooked 2 packs of thighs (25 or so).

Ask yourself this - 15 minutes after you hand off the box if you sample a piece of your chicken is it still hot and does juice still dribble down your chin because it's so moist?

Dale P
01-16-2008, 02:14 PM
I want to take a class but there are none close to home. I guess I will just keep practicing, and learning what I can from you guys.

Podge
01-16-2008, 03:13 PM
I want to take a class but there are none close to home. I guess I will just keep practicing, and learning what I can from you guys.

yup, you're right... none close to us... so you need to drive great distances like i did.:lol:

Dale P
01-16-2008, 03:19 PM
Hey Podge, why dont we do a class at my house. You do the meat, and I will do the dessert.
Classes start at 500 per man, 100 per woman

tntitan
01-16-2008, 04:52 PM
guys the way i was told is take a piece of chicken pull it apart look close to the bone if not sure take a paper towel dab it on the bone if it is clear or brown it is cooked if it is red it not i myself dont want to get sick that is all i am talking about

pigmaker23
01-16-2008, 05:15 PM
Yes it does... also a Lotta Bull Graduate... Hope you can make an East Coast contest this year..


I spent 5 years and never got a chicken call then in year 6 I got a 7th place chicken. I tried hot, grilled, boneless skin on breasts, and it just didn't matter. Last year I had a DNP, 1st, 2nd, 1st and 6th. In March last year I took the Lotta Bull class. It more than paid for itself in chicken prize money alone. And there is a reason he's always right up there in Chicken TOY. I'm now like Mike and just cook 10 trimmed thighs at a contest whereas before I cooked 2 packs of thighs (25 or so).

Ask yourself this - 15 minutes after you hand off the box if you sample a piece of your chicken is it still hot and does juice still dribble down your chin because it's so moist?

Jack2u2
01-16-2008, 05:17 PM
Thank goodness it's a little easier here. We turn in a half chicken, connected. No guessing, no green, no parts or pieces. Leave it to the judges to pick the piece they want, although, here, most seem to go for the breasts.

Podge
01-16-2008, 06:35 PM
Thank goodness it's a little easier here. We turn in a half chicken, connected. No guessing, no green, no parts or pieces. Leave it to the judges to pick the piece they want, although, here, most seem to go for the breasts.

I wouldn't mind seeing something like that done.. maybe one turn-in box, with a chicken half, in garnish... then they judge that for appearance, then in another box, throw in 5 more halves.

Ford
01-17-2008, 06:28 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing something like that done.. maybe one turn-in box, with a chicken half, in garnish... then they judge that for appearance, then in another box, throw in 5 more halves.
Just one box. Then the judges use a plastic fork to sample it. And if it's a high score box in the prelims it is put at the final table and the judges again sample the same entry. Can be 45 minutes or more at a large contest. Totally comparison judging - this is the best, this is second, etc.

tonto1117
01-17-2008, 06:37 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing something like that done.. maybe one turn-in box, with a chicken half, in garnish... then they judge that for appearance, then in another box, throw in 5 more halves.


Just one box. Then the judges use a plastic fork to sample it. And if it's a high score box in the prelims it is put at the final table and the judges again sample the same entry. Can be 45 minutes or more at a large contest. Totally comparison judging - this is the best, this is second, etc.

Both great ideas....I just don't see anything changing to that degree for a long time with KCBS....

DawgPhan
01-17-2008, 09:06 AM
I spent 5 years and never got a chicken call then in year 6 I got a 7th place chicken. I tried hot, grilled, boneless skin on breasts, and it just didn't matter. Last year I had a DNP, 1st, 2nd, 1st and 6th. In March last year I took the Lotta Bull class. It more than paid for itself in chicken prize money alone. And there is a reason he's always right up there in Chicken TOY. I'm now like Mike and just cook 10 trimmed thighs at a contest whereas before I cooked 2 packs of thighs (25 or so).

Ask yourself this - 15 minutes after you hand off the box if you sample a piece of your chicken is it still hot and does juice still dribble down your chin because it's so moist?

Same here...Never have done very well in chicken, but I am taking the chicken and ribs class at the mothership in Feb with Lotta Bull...For $125 I dont think that you can beat that with a stick. I figure 1 call in chicken will pay for the class. Cant wait to check it out and see what he does.

Anyone else heading to this class?

Dale P
01-17-2008, 10:39 AM
My i ask where this class will be at?

tonto1117
01-17-2008, 10:51 AM
My i ask where this class will be at?

Hear is a link to thier upcoming classes

http://www.lottabullbbq.com/classlist.php

Scottie
01-17-2008, 11:40 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing something like that done.. maybe one turn-in box, with a chicken half, in garnish... then they judge that for appearance, then in another box, throw in 5 more halves.

This time last year, I was practicng for the Houston Rodeo and cooking split chickens. I still enjoy cooking them that way. Even though the judges didn't like mine, I think it's the way to go for comps.

Scottie

DawgPhan
01-17-2008, 12:00 PM
My i ask where this class will be at?


The class that I am taking is going to be at the Big Green Egg headquarters..it is in Tucker Ga and right down the road from my house. Made it a really easy decision...plus it was a christmas gift....but for $125 instead of $500 it is an easy choice...you only get 2 meats, but I did email and ask if it would be the same techniques used in the competition class and in competitions and he said yes. He is cooking on eggs in this class, but I aint cooking on a geer pit anyway so I would have to adjust if it was the regular class anyway.

Ford
01-17-2008, 12:09 PM
The class that I am taking is going to be at the Big Green Egg headquarters..it is in Tucker Ga and right down the road from my house. Made it a really easy decision...plus it was a christmas gift....but for $125 instead of $500 it is an easy choice...you only get 2 meats, but I did email and ask if it would be the same techniques used in the competition class and in competitions and he said yes. He is cooking on eggs in this class, but I aint cooking on a geer pit anyway so I would have to adjust if it was the regular class anyway.
I believe that Mike's Chicken method works on all cookers. You need to tweak timing and temps to your cooker no matter what he shows you on. My bet is somebody will have that Egg at around 300F for him. I use about 250 on the FE for mine and it is winning. The other thing is you need to work out a flavor profile that works for you. That is a rub and sauce combo and that's something he really does not cover. But pay attention when he wraps his ribs as you can learn a lot there.

Ford
01-17-2008, 12:10 PM
The class that I am taking is going to be at the Big Green Egg headquarters..it is in Tucker Ga and right down the road from my house. Made it a really easy decision...plus it was a christmas gift....but for $125 instead of $500 it is an easy choice...you only get 2 meats, but I did email and ask if it would be the same techniques used in the competition class and in competitions and he said yes. He is cooking on eggs in this class, but I aint cooking on a geer pit anyway so I would have to adjust if it was the regular class anyway.
TAKE PICTURES of Mike cooking on the Egg and post them here!:biggrin: