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River City Smokehouse
01-04-2008, 02:18 PM
What say you.

Yakfishingfool
01-04-2008, 02:20 PM
Isn't there a thread on this already? What are you asking? Scott

River City Smokehouse
01-04-2008, 02:22 PM
I put this up as a poll to keep it organized to see the yes and no answers. Mods, delete if you want but I thought it would be interesting to see it as a poll too.

Yakfishingfool
01-04-2008, 02:23 PM
aaaahhhhhhh....

KC_Bobby
01-04-2008, 02:31 PM
Do organizations such as NEBS pay anything to KCBS at all? If so, would NEBS members be omitted from the extra fee?

Merl
01-04-2008, 03:02 PM
I have already stated why I believe it is appropriate. But I want to ask a very serious question. Please accept that I do want to see the other side.

If I want to play tennis or golf and I am not a member of a club, I can usually purchase a visitors pass. If I want to attend a function at an Elks or Moose lodge and I am not a member I may attend as a guest, but pay a visitors fee. There are many places where non members are charged a temporary fee for use. This helps offset the cost of use and running the place or organization.

My questions is Why would a non KCBS member object to a use fee and second, why would a KCBS member want to pay the load for a non member to utilize the services of KCBS?

Please don't flame this. I really am trying to understand the issue.
Thank you
Merl

BBQchef33
01-04-2008, 03:36 PM
how about changing the wording to

Should KCBS members receive a discount at Sanctioned contests.

KC_Bobby
01-04-2008, 03:45 PM
I'm with Phil. People like benefits, especially ones that are directly related to the purpose of the membership. As a member - I do. But will the organizers bump their fees up $25 and discount members? How much additional work is this going to cause them? Are they going to have access to the KCBS (and possibly) other databases to know what to charge competitors when they sign up?

My only issue, is why penalize members of the Iowa, California, New England, etc's organizations? If the KCBS is working with these organizations by sanctioning events that members of their organizations compete in, I don't think they should be penalized. Based on the KCBS mission statement - Our mission is to celebrate, teach, preserve, and promote barbecue as a culinary technique, sport and art form. We want barbecue to be recognized as America's Cuisine. - I think these organizations would be happy to work together.

MoKanMeathead
01-04-2008, 03:46 PM
I think a non-KCBS team should have to pay more for the benefits that I get by being a member of KCBS.

Merle - I don't agree with your analogy. KCBS doesn't own the club the event organizer does and just pays KCBS to mange it.

CharlieBeasley
01-04-2008, 03:55 PM
OK I'm with Phil as the fee for membership is for a different thing that the comp fees.

paydabill
01-04-2008, 03:58 PM
Wow - I have been out of the loop. However, here are my .02.

1st - I have been a member of the KCBS for 2 years now. Outside of the Bullsheet, I do nto see membership having its privilages. I know that they are a sanctioning body, and that the fees go towards running the business. Yet, I have never gotten something from the site becuase I was a member, or did I get a discount that anybody else could get. I understand at some contest they have fought for pay outs and such, but I never had that problem.

2nd - this year I pay $25, what happens next year they raise it to $50, then the following $100. When does the payment out weigh the beenfit? I guess what i am sayign is, if you have to be a member to compete, what is too stoping them from raising their rates all the time.

3rd - when you are trying to grow something, you do not do this by becoming exclusive. Maybe I am first time cook and told that I will pay more then others, I might decide who needs that and never cook.

4th - and last, what is stop organizers from making you join their clubs. Lets say, Shriners say I have to pay an extra $50 to become a temporary Shriner to cook at the Columbia event, or a Rotary membership to cook at Marshall (too bad they are done). So now my $150 entry fee would go up to $225 becuase I was not "in the right club."

I think there are bigger issues that they shoudl concentrate on then how to get an extra $25.

arlieque
01-04-2008, 03:58 PM
Merl, the difference in paying a fee to the tennis club or Elks Lodge is it goes to them. This fee we are asked to collect and I say at this time does not go to KCBS ! This has mandatory written all over it so cut to the chase and lets get the BS out of the way and just say if your not a member you will have to pay an additional fee to enter and STOP giving the teams that are members the idea that they will get a discount at all the contest they are going to cook. You and I both know that isnt going to happen unless fees go up. Want to make a bet???? This will not produce any more members than we already have as teams will just find a member in good standing so that they dont have to pay the additional fee.

Yakfishingfool
01-04-2008, 04:00 PM
If the KCBS is working with these organizations by sanctioning events that members of their organizations compete in, I don't think they should be penalized. Based on the KCBS mission statement - Our mission is to celebrate, teach, preserve, and promote barbecue as a culinary technique, sport and art form. We want barbecue to be recognized as America's Cuisine. - I think these organizations would be happy to work together.

And therein lies and interesting area to investigate. Why are we competing with eachother with various BBQ organizations. Why not have charter "chapters" of the KCBS? Kind of a local chapter of the KCBS. Scott

Bigmista
01-04-2008, 04:09 PM
I have already stated why I believe it is appropriate. But I want to ask a very serious question. Please accept that I do want to see the other side.

If I want to play tennis or golf and I am not a member of a club, I can usually purchase a visitors pass. If I want to attend a function at an Elks or Moose lodge and I am not a member I may attend as a guest, but pay a visitors fee. There are many places where non members are charged a temporary fee for use. This helps offset the cost of use and running the place or organization.

My questions is Why would a non KCBS member object to a use fee and second, why would a KCBS member want to pay the load for a non member to utilize the services of KCBS?

Please don't flame this. I really am trying to understand the issue.
Thank you
Merl

Merl,

Following your analogy, the non-member is paying for the use of what?

The rules?

The Judges?

The privilege of seeing the logo on the score sheet?

What is the benefit to the non-member for paying this temporary fee?

BBQchef33
01-04-2008, 04:10 PM
Im not sure if I got this right. But I understood it as the 25$ fee was not going to KCBS, but to the organizer.

so, as an example. An organzier needs $175 per team. Thats his price.

His contest gets promoted as $200 for non KCBS, $175 for KCBS members.

Organizer gets $175 for some teams and $200 for others. He will come out on his mark if he has 100% KCBS teams, or over by some percentage.

KCBS is not changing the sanctioning fee, or the per team fee, so they do not see any increased revenue.

Teams that foresee multiple contests in a season will most likley join to reap the benefits anyway, thats where KCBS may see an increase in memberships or revenue.

BBQchef33
01-04-2008, 04:10 PM
Im not sure if I got this right. But I understood it as the 25$ fee was not going to KCBS, but to the organizer.

so, as an example. An organzier needs $175 per team. Thats his price.

His contest gets promoted as $200 for non KCBS, $175 for KCBS members.

Organizer gets $175 for some teams and $200 for others. He will come out on his mark if he has 100% KCBS teams, or over by some percentage.

KCBS is not changing the sanctioning fee, or the per team fee, so they do not see any increased revenue.

Teams that foresee multiple contests in a season will most likley join to reap the benefits anyway, thats where KCBS may see an increase in memberships or revenue.

SP
01-04-2008, 04:13 PM
If I went to every contest where the KCBS owned and ran the facilitys, then I would understand membership, for lack a better term, clause. But the people that are put on contest are not KCBS payroll people, they are indvidual, orginizations etc. You charge them a fee for KCBS sanctioning. While I think that people that compete should be members, and yes I am one, I think that it should not be a force issue. I would like to see so promises from KCBS. As Ive said before, CBJ for all sanctioned events. I dont want some farker thats there for a free meal and thats it. If you want to jugde you should be a member, if not pay a fee. Now not being nieve I know that its not that easy but it something that we deserve for dropping hundreds to thousand a weekend to compete. The membership is not the deal its the principal.

Another ramble, maybe Ill have a couple of drinks and reall let go.

Spydermike72
01-04-2008, 04:59 PM
Hey Merl, no flame here, but what exactly is the thought process behind this fee/discount ??

Was there an outcrying from the Organizers that just needed to be addressed in this manner ? I mean it looks to me that they (the organizers) are the ones that are getting extra work for no real payout...


I have already stated why I believe it is appropriate. But I want to ask a very serious question. Please accept that I do want to see the other side.

If I want to play tennis or golf and I am not a member of a club, I can usually purchase a visitors pass. If I want to attend a function at an Elks or Moose lodge and I am not a member I may attend as a guest, but pay a visitors fee. There are many places where non members are charged a temporary fee for use. This helps offset the cost of use and running the place or organization.

My questions is Why would a non KCBS member object to a use fee and second, why would a KCBS member want to pay the load for a non member to utilize the services of KCBS?

Please don't flame this. I really am trying to understand the issue.
Thank you
Merl

Spydermike72
01-04-2008, 05:04 PM
Hey Bobby,

I am with you 100%, when we started the GLBBQA that was one of our main objectives, to build value into the membership. I think we have done a pretty good job of that and we are still working on other things as well.

As the President of the GLBBQA, I would love to work with the KCBS on anything they would like.


I'm with Phil. People like benefits, especially ones that are directly related to the purpose of the membership. As a member - I do. But will the organizers bump their fees up $25 and discount members? How much additional work is this going to cause them? Are they going to have access to the KCBS (and possibly) other databases to know what to charge competitors when they sign up?

My only issue, is why penalize members of the Iowa, California, New England, etc's organizations? If the KCBS is working with these organizations by sanctioning events that members of their organizations compete in, I don't think they should be penalized. Based on the KCBS mission statement - Our mission is to celebrate, teach, preserve, and promote barbecue as a culinary technique, sport and art form. We want barbecue to be recognized as America's Cuisine. - I think these organizations would be happy to work together.

Bigmista
01-04-2008, 06:20 PM
Im not sure if I got this right. But I understood it as the 25$ fee was not going to KCBS, but to the organizer.

so, as an example. An organzier needs $175 per team. Thats his price.

His contest gets promoted as $200 for non KCBS, $175 for KCBS members.

Organizer gets $175 for some teams and $200 for others. He will come out on his mark if he has 100% KCBS teams, or over by some percentage.

KCBS is not changing the sanctioning fee, or the per team fee, so they do not see any increased revenue.

Teams that foresee multiple contests in a season will most likley join to reap the benefits anyway, thats where KCBS may see an increase in memberships or revenue.

So in a nutshell, the KCBS is asking the organizers to help them make money on the backend. They are saying, "Look, you make some extra one-time cash with the $25 for non-members and we will get some recurring cash from people who join us to avoid your $25 fee that we told you to charge."

Maybe this should be in News & Politics because it sounds like something the government would do.

Jeff Hughes
01-04-2008, 06:21 PM
Im not sure if I got this right. But I understood it as the 25$ fee was not going to KCBS, but to the organizer.

so, as an example. An organzier needs $175 per team. Thats his price.

His contest gets promoted as $200 for non KCBS, $175 for KCBS members.

Organizer gets $175 for some teams and $200 for others. He will come out on his mark if he has 100% KCBS teams, or over by some percentage.

KCBS is not changing the sanctioning fee, or the per team fee, so they do not see any increased revenue.

Teams that foresee multiple contests in a season will most likley join to reap the benefits anyway, thats where KCBS may see an increase in memberships or revenue.

Nicely stated, that is my understanding as well...

HoDeDo
01-04-2008, 06:28 PM
I think a non-KCBS team should have to pay more for the benefits that I get by being a member of KCBS.

Merle - I don't agree with your analogy. KCBS doesn't own the club the event organizer does and just pays KCBS to mange it.

This is the crux of my issue... I think each event has to look at the goals/needs of that event. If KCBS was ponying up for all the events, they could do whatever they want.

I am all for non-KCBS teams not getting KCBS additional benefits. Let me define that. The Organizer pays for sanctioning, and sanctioning is typically reflected in the entry fee. So ALL entrants should get the benefits of a well run event. Now, lets say a team is non-KCBS -- IF that is the case, then they do not get on the KCBS site "team list", and they are not allowed into the running for ToY points.

If KCBS really wanted to make some benefits for members only -- put the BBQ contest schedule, and scoring/results behind a walled garden. Then KCBS members only see it on the KCBS site. Anyone else attending must get thier info at the event when they are handed out. KCBS should focus on pushing the value of joining and the additional benefits you get as a member. The right to a well run contest is already earned when the sanctioning is paid for.

Also - lets remember that KCBS has talked about expanding that sanctioning to all kinds of other events. Chili cook-offs, bake-offs, etc. KCBS will likely not push for membership or "discounts" to cake decorators just because the KCBS sanctions/reps thier event.

The sanctioning is a service - paid for by organizers (and ultimately teams) We should keep that issue separate from finding other ways to bring non-KCBS members into the fold. Add other value... like ToY tracking, schedule access etc. and go from there.

I'm all for driving membership... but lets find a way to do it that benefits all

NotleyQue
01-04-2008, 06:40 PM
I dont see what the big deal is. Its 25 dollars more for a year. Like 25 bucks is gonna hurt anyone financially.

If you want to compeat in a KCBS event you should have to be a member. Thats the way it is in most organizations.

It should be tacked on when you sign up for an event. $200.00 for KCBS members 225.00 for non members (which includes a 1 year membership to the KCBS and a year of the KCBS Bullsheet) That way there is no way out. I dont agree with offering less prize money for a non member.

big blue bbq
01-04-2008, 06:58 PM
So if I follow this correctly, a member of the USGA pro golfer say Tiger Woods for instance, could not compete in the British Open without paying more money than all the brits. Lets see Big 12 can't play against Big 10, and AFC can't play against NFC! I think that covers it.
I am planning to join the KCBS so I can get points in the TOY, but if I get points without joining I may not.

All said in jest.

I really don't see the big problem. As many have said I thought it was to spread the art of BBQ and I didn't know you needed to join a club to do that.

Rub-A-Dub
01-04-2008, 07:15 PM
What are the true benefits of the KCBS? What do they do for there members? I get a newsletter and a $25 discount at each event I cook at. Is there a ranking for the year? Cash or check for the #1 team. Is there discounts at stores? Just looking for some good info other than the website. Wanted to here what the KCBS has done for it members.

Plowboy
01-04-2008, 07:15 PM
Good presentation of your opinions, Andy. :eusa_clap You made a lot of sense there.


Also - lets remember that KCBS has talked about expanding that sanctioning to all kinds of other events. Chili cook-offs, bake-offs, etc. KCBS will likely not push for membership or "discounts" to cake decorators just because the KCBS sanctions/reps thier event.

I'm setting up and All Crock Pot contest called "Low and Slow".

ssbbqguy
01-04-2008, 07:18 PM
Hello, On above question, I see an entry fee as right to the purse, providing all other criteria being met. If this would be different treatment for non-member versus member, then get ready for more discord and unhappiness. The fee is like the contract, so must be diclosed accordingly. Just my opinion, ssbbqguy

tonto1117
01-04-2008, 07:54 PM
Im not sure if I got this right. But I understood it as the 25$ fee was not going to KCBS, but to the organizer.

so, as an example. An organzier needs $175 per team. Thats his price.

His contest gets promoted as $200 for non KCBS, $175 for KCBS members.

Organizer gets $175 for some teams and $200 for others. He will come out on his mark if he has 100% KCBS teams, or over by some percentage.

KCBS is not changing the sanctioning fee, or the per team fee, so they do not see any increased revenue.

Teams that foresee multiple contests in a season will most likley join to reap the benefits anyway, thats where KCBS may see an increase in memberships or revenue.

Exactly. Either you perceive the KCBS is a "value Add" to a comp (i.e., standardized judging; sanctioned for national ratings; points for key events like the Daniels, etc) or you don't. Whether you are a serious hobbyist or competitior for bigger bucks, you have to make a decision regarding sanctioning.....backyard/neghborhood pass time or serious, head to head with the best. Promoters can choose to sanction via KCBS or not. I think KCBS membership should be optional but we seek out KCBS sanctioned events and, because we perceive a 'value add', may not beef as much at the entry fees.

just my 2 cents..........

kcpellethead
01-04-2008, 09:23 PM
how about changing the wording to

Should KCBS members receive a discount at Sanctioned contests.

Thank you Phil. I was hoping someone would suggest that language.

Rod

River City Smokehouse
01-04-2008, 09:24 PM
how about changing the wording to

Should KCBS members receive a discount at Sanctioned contests.
I see your point Phil, but it's too late now. People have already jumped because of how it was proposed and now it can't be viewed as a discount.

smoke-n-my-i's
01-04-2008, 09:50 PM
Let's see if I have this right...

As a member, then a non-member, and now a member again.

As a member, I competed in a single competition my first year.
As a non-member, I competed in two competitions last year.
Now as a member again, I want to compete more, but will see how my work schedule goes, the price of gas etc.....

KCBS wants the organizers of the competition to penalize a non-member to KCBS an extra $25 to compete. Now the organizer has the black eye for penalizing the non-member. KCBS is saying that the organizer is charging it, not us.

Now if you want to save that $25, you can join, (pay us $35 a yr) and it will save you money starting your second comp. And we get an extra $35 a year from you. And you get a pile of advertisement we call the BullSheet.

So, in order to compete beginning 2009, if you are not a member, you will have to go somewhere else than a KCBS competition, because from what I read, you will not be allowed to compete. It looks like KCBS is trying to be the dictator here.

What is next, if you don't have the right membership with the right BBQ Society, you will be banned from going from state to state to compete because you cross the boundary into another societies area?

I agree, why not just unite, make it the USBS and all be happy. USBS is United States Barbecue Society.

Let's drop the territory, we are a bigger society than you, and if you don't play by our rules you can't play. Are we in this for the sport, or for the money making business? And yes, I agree, what other benefits do we have as being a member than a monthly paper full of advertisements that collect dust and fill up our landfills?

My $0.02 worth. Maybe I should have waited awhile before rejoining again. Is it really going to be worth it to only compete a couple of times a year, not likely.

BBQchef33
01-04-2008, 11:06 PM
So, in order to compete beginning 2009, if you are not a member, you will have to go somewhere else than a KCBS competition, because from what I read, you will not be allowed to compete.

im too tired to read all this stuff now, but on first read, I don't think thats an accurate interpertation. Anyone can compete, it will just be a higher fee for non memebrs.

BBQchef33
01-04-2008, 11:08 PM
Rod, Merl.. someoene on BOD..

Just curious... is this a proposal? An inquiry?? testing the waters?? or already set in stone?

ThomEmery
01-04-2008, 11:10 PM
Well you could always join the KCBS

Jeez Boys this isn't that big a deal
Just join or if you only cook once a year
give me the extra $25
I promise to spend it wisely

Sawdustguy
01-04-2008, 11:19 PM
Let's see if I have this right...

As a member, then a non-member, and now a member again.

As a member, I competed in a single competition my first year.
As a non-member, I competed in two competitions last year.
Now as a member again, I want to compete more, but will see how my work schedule goes, the price of gas etc.....

KCBS wants the organizers of the competition to penalize a non-member to KCBS an extra $25 to compete. Now the organizer has the black eye for penalizing the non-member. KCBS is saying that the organizer is charging it, not us.

Now if you want to save that $25, you can join, (pay us $35 a yr) and it will save you money starting your second comp. And we get an extra $35 a year from you. And you get a pile of advertisement we call the BullSheet.

So, in order to compete beginning 2009, if you are not a member, you will have to go somewhere else than a KCBS competition, because from what I read, you will not be allowed to compete. It looks like KCBS is trying to be the dictator here.

What is next, if you don't have the right membership with the right BBQ Society, you will be banned from going from state to state to compete because you cross the boundary into another societies area?

I agree, why not just unite, make it the USBS and all be happy. USBS is United States Barbecue Society.

Let's drop the territory, we are a bigger society than you, and if you don't play by our rules you can't play. Are we in this for the sport, or for the money making business? And yes, I agree, what other benefits do we have as being a member than a monthly paper full of advertisements that collect dust and fill up our landfills?

My $0.02 worth. Maybe I should have waited awhile before rejoining again. Is it really going to be worth it to only compete a couple of times a year, not likely.

How the hell did you come to those comclusions. I think you are just trying to make trouble. If you really feel like that I think it's time for you to get a different hobby.

Rub-A-Dub
01-04-2008, 11:34 PM
ok before I get flamed. I just wanted to know what the benefits were to being a member.

LostNation
01-05-2008, 05:42 AM
Im not sure if I got this right. But I understood it as the 25$ fee was not going to KCBS, but to the organizer.

so, as an example. An organzier needs $175 per team. Thats his price.

His contest gets promoted as $200 for non KCBS, $175 for KCBS members.

Organizer gets $175 for some teams and $200 for others. He will come out on his mark if he has 100% KCBS teams, or over by some percentage.

KCBS is not changing the sanctioning fee, or the per team fee, so they do not see any increased revenue.

Teams that foresee multiple contests in a season will most likley join to reap the benefits anyway, thats where KCBS may see an increase in memberships or revenue.

Phil, your 100% accurate.This is a way for KCBS to add some value to your membership. KCBS gets no money from this other then some added members. It's up to the contest organizer to decide how much effort they want to put into checking into members status. If cooks don't want to join then the organizer gets a little extra cash that they can use to their discretion. I don't think this conflicts with other cooking society's throughout the country.

ThomEmery
01-05-2008, 05:54 AM
Rub out here we have CBBQA KCBS and IBCA asking you to sign up
Belonging is up to you
The CBBQA Children's Charities, subscription to National BBQ News
support for the contests you want to cook, CBBQA Team of the Year
It is a deal at $36
KCBS Sanctions our large events fine group of folks You get a newsletter
with info you can find on the web (should just shift to National BBQ News)
Mostly you are supporting the group so they will be there
IBCA Sanctions our smaller events The Western States Pit of the IBCA
Has sponsored and gotten two Head Judges for these small contests
So a group that has a tight budget can still do a sanctioned cook off
Joining supports the efforts of guys like me Who spend more than our wives know
keeping BBQ Growing out here

Roo-B-Q'N
01-05-2008, 09:56 AM
I have already stated why I believe it is appropriate. But I want to ask a very serious question. Please accept that I do want to see the other side.

If I want to play tennis or golf and I am not a member of a club, I can usually purchase a visitors pass. If I want to attend a function at an Elks or Moose lodge and I am not a member I may attend as a guest, but pay a visitors fee. There are many places where non members are charged a temporary fee for use. This helps offset the cost of use and running the place or organization.

My questions is Why would a non KCBS member object to a use fee and second, why would a KCBS member want to pay the load for a non member to utilize the services of KCBS?

Please don't flame this. I really am trying to understand the issue.
Thank you
Merl


Merl,

According to this poll, and the other thread regarding this issue nobody has a problem with non kcbs members paying more.

What the organizers are saying is to not put this on them and do not make them look like the bad guys. If KCBS feels so strongly about this, have the reps check membership cards at each event and collect AND keep the the extra $25.00 or $35.00 dollars.

It is not worth it to me to have our event bashed by the few because they had to pay more or be forced to join something they obviously do not want to join.

lunchlady
01-05-2008, 10:01 AM
I just wanted to know what the benefits were to being a member.

well, there is the Bullsheet, the brotherly love, the discounted entry fees, also they have added in a hotel discount, I believe the Clarion chain. There are more benefits, but I haven't checked in a while.

For example, we were going to get two to three hotel rooms on the way down (and back) to the Jack. That KCBS discounted rate (for members ONLY) ALONE would have practically paid for my membership.

I agree this probably could have been worded differently, it would have made a big difference in the way it hit people.

I also believe that ALL BBQ societies should work together for the betterment of our SPORT. We are all in this together. One issue is that this is growing so quickly that there are things that our predecessors NEVER had to think about, and now, everything has to be resolved in REAL TIME... with the advancement of technology everything has to be RIGHT NOW... by the time the meetings happen, people have already gnawed on the subject for a while and made their own, strong opinions about everything.

Send your opinions to your BoD members!!!!! That is the only way to get things accomplished. Bashing it out on any forum , while fun and an interlude from this long winter, it isn't doing much of anything in the way of progress.

Send your thoughts to your BoD, and vote for the people who you think will represent!

can't we all just get along?

butt head
01-05-2008, 10:05 AM
Well you could always join the KCBS

to get a $3 a month paper that realy only covers kc area storys. right now kcbs membership is not werth the money in this area.(yes i am a member for now)

butt head
01-05-2008, 10:06 AM
(Well you could always join the KCBS)

to get a $3 a month paper that realy only covers kc area storys. right now kcbs membership is not werth the money in this area.(yes i am a member for now)[/quote]

smoke-n-my-i's
01-05-2008, 10:15 AM
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35423

Go this thread and read post #11.

You will see, I stated by 2009, but it is stated as actually 2010 you will have to be a member. That is the proposal..... In other words in my opinion, they want to be the dictatorship.

If you will look at some of the other societies, they follow the KCBS rules a lot. They may modify them to their suit themselves, they are looking to KCBS.

So my opinion again, if say you are a member in the MABA, you will not be able to compete in a KCBS without paying a premium or joining KCBS as well. Now you have multiple memberships in order to compete in say one competition say in another state. EX: if I rolled into Virginia to a comp. I am a member of MABA, but this is a KCBS event. I would have to have a KCBS membership to compete even though I am a member of MABA.

This is almost like double taxation. Is it just getting to be a money thing, or the sport of the game?

Again, just my opinion.

smoke-n-my-i's
01-05-2008, 10:41 AM
How the hell did you come to those comclusions. I think you are just trying to make trouble. If you really feel like that I think it's time for you to get a different hobby.

So others can voice their thoughts and ideas, but I can't? ? ? ? ? ?

Go read some of the other numerous threads on this site about this same topic.....

again, here is this one about it also. And read topic #11 if you didn't read my previous post about the mandatory membership in the making.
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35423

Maybe you should read more.....

arlieque
01-05-2008, 11:26 AM
Well guys the #11 reply was mine and there are alot of what if's in it. If it is not going to be made mandatory later down the road why throw all the organizers under the bus, making us charge more for non members teams. Why pick the organizer who work really hard to make a place for the teams to cook add more to there work load. We are not employees of KCBS! It is surprising that the BOD members that are reading this will not reply. This is what the letter stated:

Our recommendation is to charge an additional $25 for a non-KCBS team to enter your contest. To avoid this fee, all they have to prove is that one of their head cooks is a KCBS member in good standing by providing to you their KCBS member number. While this is a recommended action at this time, please note that we anticipate this program to be fully implemented at all contests in 2009.

So were will this go from here? Who is going to provide the checks and balancing system to do this and at what date during your entry fee process is this done? As I see this; it is only a membership drive and who has the most contact with teams outside the KCBS office daily are the organizers who mail out, email and call the teams letting them know of there bbq cookoffs that they are running. I am all for a membership drive to get new members and to grow the Society. So with 8000+ members why not just have a all out membership drive once a year offering prizes for the person who gets the most members and or the state that gets the most members? Better ways than try and force it on the organizers. Am I wrong in stating this isnt as much about charging more for non member teams than it is as trying to give/force teams to join; really making this truly that is is, a membership drive! You could ask your self why after all these years are they now doing this? Again nothing wrong with teams having to be members and I want the KCBS to grow yearly but are there under lying issues behind this? Another thing if KCBS wants the organizers to do this then make it a rule in the rules book or sanctioning agreement and stop making it look as if the organizers are doing this!!!!!! Teams this is KCBS doing this.

Jorge
01-05-2008, 11:40 AM
Without naming names, I'd like to ask everyone to
A)keep the conversation friendly
B)keep the conversation friendly
or C) take it up privately via PM or email

LindaM
01-05-2008, 12:09 PM
Phil,

I am glad you see the point. The idea is to give a benefit to members. The CBJ classes give benefits to members why not the contests. And rather than the grief we would hear from organizers if KCBS wanted the money, we decided to let the organizers keep the money. Again, an advantage to the organizers. The organizers wishing to participate will be listed on the website under member benefits as well. A little more free advertising. We never said this was manditory.

Linda Mullane

Greendriver
01-05-2008, 12:31 PM
I voted YES thinking it was a no brainer and then I see it's almost split - man I am shocked. I guess a lot of folks just aren't members of very many other organizations is all I can figure.

Hawgsnheifers
01-05-2008, 01:16 PM
Being a past member of SCCA, Sports Car Club of America, I competed in their autocross program. The SCCA has split the US into 50 or so regions and I was not only a member of SCCA, but a member of the local Kansas Region. When I competed in my local regions events, I paid a fee like $15 bucks. If a neighboring SCCA region competitor, like from The Kansas City region SCCA came to our region to compete, that person paid an additional fee of $5 bucks or $20 bucks total to compete. If a non SCCA member wanted to compete, the fee was $25 bucks. So there was an advantage to being an SCCA member and also a member of your local region. When I went to Kansas City and competed in the Kansas City Region SCCA events, I paid a bit more than their region members, but less than a non member. I can't say there were any other benifits, much like one brother wrote about only seeing the Bullsheet as a benifit of KCBS membership. In SCCA I got a monthly magazine and some stickers. But when the major competition's were held, like regional or national championships, you had to be an SCCA member to enter and you had to have competed that year in some regional events to qualify for the year end national events. Having never competed at the Royal or other huge BBQ events, I don't know if you have to be a KCBS member to enter and compete.
Having read that there are other bodies like KCBS, perhaps handling it like we did in SCCA might make it work. There were other Autocross clubs, not affiliated with SCCA, and we offered them a discount when competing in our events kinda as a courtesy discount and they did the same for us when we went to compete in theirs.
It will be interesting to see if BBQ event cooridinators start upcharging non members of what ever sanctioning body is handling the event. A KCBS membership is around $40 bucks so at $25 or $50 buck upcharge on top of the entry fee makes it a no brainer to be a member of that sanctioning body, depending on how many events you plan on entering.

paydabill
01-05-2008, 01:58 PM
It will be interesting to see if BBQ event cooridinators start upcharging non members of what ever sanctioning body is handling the event. A KCBS membership is around $40 bucks so at $25 or $50 buck upcharge on top of the entry fee makes it a no brainer to be a member of that sanctioning body, depending on how many events you plan on entering.


IT is that for now, but lets look down the road, this is a way they can dictate that you have to be a member to compete. The next logical step for the KCBS would to be raise the membership fee. Average competitor does 5 contest a year - 5 x $25 is $125 - so lets make membership $100. it is still a bargain.

That makes perfect business sense for me.

bbqbull
01-05-2008, 08:30 PM
Without naming names, I'd like to ask everyone to
A)keep the conversation friendly
B)keep the conversation friendly
or C) take it up privately via PM or email

Jorge I totally agree with what you said here.

Please heed Jorges thoughts here folks.

BanditBBQ
01-06-2008, 08:50 AM
As an organizer, I can say that KCBS does let me have access to the updated membership list...if I pay $75 rental fee. I've 'rented' the list the last couple of years for direct mail purposes to help promote the event I was organizing. If they mandate that we have to verify members on our own, I certainly hope they will not charge us for the list. Otherwise, I would be more than happy to let them take the time to verify all the teams for me.

Mo-Dave
01-06-2008, 02:03 PM
Ok I did not read every post so hope this has not already be said.

Why not charge the non members the current membership fee for the first contest they do in a year, which would include the KCBS Bullsheet and what ever perceived privileges come with it and allow them to enter as many contest as they wish for that year, just like any other member. This I would think would help up membership for the KCBS and put everyone on a level playing field.

The entry form could carry a place for putting the KCBS member number on it with the entry fee for them and a second place for non members with the added amount of the membership fee, made payable to the KCBS for the membership. The organizer would hand that portion over to the KCBS. It would be up to the KCBS to monitor the membership numbers and a bill sent to the teams that clam to be but are not members. These teams would not be allowed to compete again without paying the owed fee.

Having said that I would like to see the KCBS work a little harder to get members discounts on food, supplies or anything else to help entice new membership. I can only recall a discount being offered on meat in the KC area a long time ago and some hotel discounts but other than that nada.
Dave

ThomEmery
01-06-2008, 02:24 PM
Ok I did not read every post so hope this has not already be said.

Why not charge the non members the current membership fee for the first contest they do in a year, which would include the KCBS Bullsheet and what ever perceived privileges come with it and allow them to enter as many contest as they wish for that year, just like any other member. This I would think would help up membership for the KCBS and put everyone on a level playing field.

The entry form could carry a place for putting the KCBS member number on it with the entry fee for them and a second place for non members with the added amount of the membership fee, made payable to the KCBS for the membership. The organizer would hand that portion over to the KCBS. It would be up to the KCBS to monitor the membership numbers and a bill sent to the teams that clam to be but are not members. These teams would not be allowed to compete again without paying the owed fee.

Having said that I would like to see the KCBS work a little harder to get members discounts on food, supplies or anything else to help entice new membership. I can only recall a discount being offered on meat in the KC area a long time ago and some hotel discounts but other than that nada.
Dave


I have done it that way for the CBBQA
No one complained to me

HoDeDo
01-06-2008, 02:40 PM
Phil,

I am glad you see the point. The idea is to give a benefit to members. The CBJ classes give benefits to members why not the contests. And rather than the grief we would hear from organizers if KCBS wanted the money, we decided to let the organizers keep the money. Again, an advantage to the organizers. The organizers wishing to participate will be listed on the website under member benefits as well. A little more free advertising. We never said this was manditory.

Linda Mullane

Linda - I think most of us see the point. And yes there is a value in the idea. But you have to remember that the goal of most events isn't tied to KCBS. KCBS does not fund these events. Many events existed before KCBS did... Most organizers work all year and are trying to do the best they can for thier cause (or to earn money as professional event coordinator). Each event would have to weigh the goals of the event and determine if increasing thier entry is what they want to do. It wouldnt matter to any of us KCBS members, if we get a "discount" - but there are usually alot of other issues that come into play.

KCBS is a service provider to these events - they charge to sanction them, and also charge a fee for each team entered.

Rather than ask Organizers to raise entry fees arbitararily so that KCBS can then offer a discount - why not take another track: Why doesnt KCBS use thier own marketing dollars to fund the Per team charges, saving organizers $12 /team Then the organizers could pass that savings along. Other non-kcbs teams wanting the benefit of membership... would then join. KCBS gets increased membership, the organizers get to keep the entry fees they set for their events, and all the other teams benefit as well.

If KCBS is going to use other organizers events, they need to have some $$ in the game. Give a tangible benefit to the organizers, and everything else will fall into line. Again, Linda -- your point is great, and well taken. Most of us feel that the flaw is in how you are wanting to execute the idea.

Why not allot KCBS marketing funds to support this membership drive, rather than assume organizers are going to want the additional workload .

Or take some of the real benefits the KCBS provides, and make them only available to members -- that would drive people to join as well, if they are competitors.
It's hard to do that however if the goal of the organization is to spread the art of BBQ to everyone. (not just members) Tough situation -- and one that needs more discussion before programs are implemented.

smoke-n-my-i's
01-06-2008, 03:18 PM
Ok. Let me try this one.

If I am reading this right, what is being proposed, and not yet concrete, is that every team will have to be a member of KCBS in order to compete. Right or wrong????

If right, then this will basically be a closed bbq society to the public. If you are not a member, you are out, go somewhere else. Right or wrong????

What a way for a membership drive......

AsstChief7
01-06-2008, 03:54 PM
Ok. Let me try this one.

If I am reading this right, what is being proposed, and not yet concrete, is that every team will have to be a member of KCBS in order to compete. Right or wrong????

If right, then this will basically be a closed bbq society to the public. If you are not a member, you are out, go somewhere else. Right or wrong????

What a way for a membership drive......

Nope, that's not the way I read it. (from the original message posted in another thread) You will have to PAY MORE to compete, not you CAN'T compete. :icon_cool

Chief

smoke-n-my-i's
01-06-2008, 04:34 PM
Nope, that's not the way I read it. (from the original message posted in another thread) You will have to PAY MORE to compete, not you CAN'T compete. :icon_cool

Chief

back to post #11
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35423

Direct quote from Arlie to Merl:

"If KCBS id directing this nonmember charge in 2008 and telling us they are going to make it mandatory in 2009 that we charge more for non member teams is this headed toward in 2010 that it will be mandatory that all teams be KCBS member teams in good standing to cook in a KCBS sanctioned conetst?"


Again, this is not in concrete, but it sounds like it is the direction they will be taking.


So am I still misreading what it is looking like it very likely will be?????

The_Kapn
01-06-2008, 05:05 PM
I have been watching this tread and Pondering a lot.
I can see both sides of the equation here- both KCBS and the competitors.

But, KCBS is not the "only game in town" any more!
Lots of sanctioning bodies are growing and are putting on outstanding events.

I becomes a practical matter if each and every one of them requires membership to compete! :twisted:

I pay my $$ to KCBS and FBA now for total of about $70/year.
I now have a real trailer to cook with, so what if I want to drag it to TX or the NE?
Both trips are real possibilities.
Do I have to shell out $35 or so to each to compete in an event or two before I come back to FL????
Do I get 3 copies of the National BBQ news (much better than Bullsheet, IMHO) as the only benefit since I am not competeting for TOTY or whatever?

I just do not know where this is all going.

TIM

MilitantSquatter
01-06-2008, 05:21 PM
Tim - Good points...

While each organization is trying to do a good thing, what I see happening longer term is much like what I've seen & experienced in other activities with organized bodies etc...

FRACTIONALIZATION !!!!

While we might consider it "regional" today and all in good fun etc. to have KCBS, FBA, NEBS, TX, CA etc. & and all the other state societies with smaller objectives/missions that I don't know all the initials for what will ulitmately happen is that as the money gets bigger for societies, organizers, teams etc. egos get bigger and so does the greed.

Every organization will think they can do it better because of how they treat the members, how they determine the rules, how they keep records etc. We'll then have numerous teams claiming to be state, regional and world champions etc based on organizations.

Some of you may laugh and think I'm way off base here, but I've experienced it with my own eyes elsewhere after being involved for many years in competitive athletics. I see the same writing on the wall as the popularity grows.

Whatever it is, it is.. but I'm not gonna complain.. I'll just make a decision in the end about where I think the best interests lie.

Yakfishingfool
01-06-2008, 05:26 PM
Vinny, I agree, this is the infantcy in possible creating an us them mentality in BBQ. Lot;s of thinking has to go on and looking at all angles. Want to see what happens when this occurs...look in the field of nursing. Everyone has their own little corner. Want to see success? Look at medicine. They control all aspects from top down. It's out there, let's learn from mistakes. Scott

tony76248
01-06-2008, 06:36 PM
Some very healthy debating going on here.

I have a few questions. What does KCBS do with the money it collects at this time? What do they do with excess funds at the end of the year? Is the KCBS a non-profit organization?

scottyd
01-07-2008, 08:27 AM
Join the KCBS the paper is a good read, and support BBQ. After all it is the future of our hobby, sport or whatever you want to call it.

Wizards of 'Que
01-07-2008, 09:11 AM
I belong to three sanctioning bodies (KCBS,IBCA,MBN). I belong because I like to feel that I have some little voice in what goes on. In other words, once in awhile they let me vote on something and I have offical B*tching rights. Sanctioning bobies want members dues, and they are willing to put up with us for that reason. Their core business is sanctioning contest, and they don't need members to do that. The question is how do you get more people to pay dues. IBCA uses a carrot approach by offering addition prize money if you are a member. Appearently, KCBS is leaning toward the stick approach with an entry fee pentalty for non-members. To me the postive approach is much better for the organizations image.

smoke-n-my-i's
01-07-2008, 10:45 AM
Some very healthy debating going on here.

I have a few questions. What does KCBS do with the money it collects at this time? What do they do with excess funds at the end of the year? Is the KCBS a non-profit organization?

Yes, they claim to be non-profit. Look at there website.

And then my next question is... Since they are NON-profit, and they sell the ads to the paper (not free), website (not free), sell products (mark up profit), etc., and everyone is suppose to be volunteering, where does all of that money go? ? ? ? ? ? And don't forget what they charge the organizers for representing them? ? ? ?

Yes, I agree. Interesting reading and debating going on here.

So, if we have to end up (possibly) being members of a national society, regional society, state society, will each society recognize each others membership? ? ? ? ? Most likely not. It is beginning to look like it is getting to be more and more greed ($$$) than the sport of bbq.

Just my opinion for what it is worth. $0.01 worth. And yes, I am a member of KCBS, and looking at MABA, and NCBS (North Carolina Barbecue Society). So yes, I can voice my opinion.

timzcardz
01-07-2008, 11:07 AM
Yes, they claim to be non-profit. Look at there website.

And then my next question is... Since they are NON-profit, and they sell the ads to the paper (not free), website (not free), sell products (mark up profit), etc., and everyone is suppose to be volunteering, where does all of that money go? ? ? ? ? ?



If you are really interested, you can look up their Fiscal Year 2004 tax return at guidestar.org

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/431/488/2004-431488552-01a884bb-9.pdf

smoke-n-my-i's
01-07-2008, 02:06 PM
If you are really interested, you can look up their Fiscal Year 2004 tax return at guidestar.org

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/431/488/2004-431488552-01a884bb-9.pdf



Thanks. I saved me a copy to look at a little closer.... From a quick glance, there is a ton of money from advertisements. I take it that is the ones they "sold" either in the BullSheet or website..... will look some more later. Also strange that only the 04 return is listed. Maybe some restrictions for a few years for release from the IRS or something....

Sawdustguy
01-07-2008, 02:31 PM
Thanks. I saved me a copy to look at a little closer.... From a quick glance, there is a ton of money from advertisements. I take it that is the ones they "sold" either in the BullSheet or website..... will look some more later. Also strange that only the 04 return is listed. Maybe some restrictions for a few years for release from the IRS or something....

I think that if all this stuff bothers you so much you should have run for one of the BOD spots.

DawgPhan
01-07-2008, 03:22 PM
From just a quick glance it looked like KCBS pulled in $300k last year and ended the year with about $30k in excess, which brought their current holdings to a little over $100k. I can fault them for holding back a little. It seems like they are spending what they earn. seems fairly non-profit-y to me. atleast it doesnt look like anyone is getting rich doing it.

jbrink01
01-09-2008, 09:06 AM
Non KCBS members are sharing in benefits that come at a cost to the contst and organization. I think non members should pay a premium, say $25?

timzcardz
01-09-2008, 12:19 PM
Non KCBS members are sharing in benefits that come at a cost to the contst and organization. I think non members should pay a premium, say $25?

What exactly is the perceived benefit derived by non-members?

Unless I am missing something, certifcation of contests and judges appears to be a money maker for KCBS that members and non-members alike are contributing to and receiving the same contest benfits.

From KCBS' 2004 Return for competition related items

BBQ Comp fees income: $83,299
Direct Expenses BBQ Competitions: $42,924
------------------------------------------
Net: $40,375


Certifed BBQ Classes income: $39,273
Direct Expenses BBQ Judging Classes: $26,125
---------------------------------------------
Net: $13,148


So it could be argued that competitions, the organizers, and yes even non-member competitors have been subsidizing other actvites of KCBS.





From another perspective, total revenues were $342,261

BBQ Comp fees income: $83,299
Certifed BBQ Classes income: $39,273
------------------------------------------
Total from competition related items: $122,572 (35% of total)

Total from dues $76,539 (22%)

Competitions were (in 2004) the biggest piece of the pie (even if you excluded the income from judging classes). Therefor each percent point growth in competitions has a greater postiive affect on KCBS' bottom line than each pecent growth in other areas.

KCBS would be wise to tread carefully while tinkering with their largest source of income, and potential growth.

DawgPhan
01-09-2008, 12:52 PM
ding ding ding...looks like we have a winner...

and it looks like all the kcbs members are really the ones not pulling their own weight. the non-members have to step in and help pay for all of those member benefits.

j/k

but it is a different way of looking at it...

smoke-n-my-i's
01-22-2008, 04:00 PM
One thing to remember. All non-members pay the same amount to compete as members for a given competition, which goes to the organizer which goes to KCBS.

So being a member paying $35 a yr is the only cost being paid by us members above a non-member. We have a voice at KCBS that they don't. I say, if they want to compete without being a member, they would not be eligible for GC or RG at any competition. That would put a damper on their winnings and more incentive to join and pay the $35 a year. Would you compete as a non-member knowing that you would not be eligible for GC or RG ? ? ? Most likely not....

jminion
01-22-2008, 07:02 PM
The IRS has rules for 501c not for profit corps. The only paid positions are office staff and excutive director. Reps recieve travel expences and $150 for doing the contests, nobody is getting rich off this.

As a Board member I was never reimbursed for travel to KC for any meetings I attended and only hotel rooms 2 or 3 times.

I have my doubts to the legality of requiring non-members having to pay additional fees or requiring membership to compete. The question was asked of the laywers representing KCBS and they said it was legal but they are not tax laywers and I still have my reservations.

KCBS receives tax breaks from the people of the US and I do know of groups that are 501c 3 that had these kinds of rules on who has to pay what, when they had an audit from the IRS requiring additional payments from non members or requiring membership was ruled in violation of IRS rules.

If the questions were easy we would not be having this conversation.

River City Smokehouse
01-22-2008, 07:21 PM
I think the pill would have swallowed by wording it as a discount to members instead of a extra fee to nonmembers. At least one would think so.

Jorge
01-23-2008, 08:48 AM
KCBS receives tax breaks from the people of the US and I do know of groups that are 501c 3 that had these kinds of rules on who has to pay what, when they had an audit from the IRS requiring additional payments from non members or requiring membership was ruled in violation of IRS rules.

If the questions were easy we would not be having this conversation.

Jim, has anyone asked the IRS?

Ford
01-23-2008, 09:08 AM
They did file as a 501c4 a couple of years ago as they were not a 501c3 as originally filed. It's now a not for profit organization. It's really like a club more than anything else. So long as at the end of the year they more or less break even it's fine but they can't make money year after year. Profit is a bad word for a 501c4.

BanditBBQ
01-23-2008, 09:32 AM
I am a KCBS member in good standing, am a contest organizer, and work hard to promote other contests in the region through the Illinois BBQ Society. I think the idea of a member discount is a good one (should have been presented that way), but cannont see where the 'benefits' that have been discussed come from for non-members. Contests pay a healthy fee to KCBS for sanctioning.

As an organizer, I paid nearly $1,000 to KCBS last year for just one contest's sanctioning ($350 initial sanctioning fee, then $12/team for the teams that showed up)...that did not include the Rep's travel fees. The percepetion of our sponsors was that $1,000 got us judging plates and the KCBS name attached to our contest.

I will be okay with offering KCBS members a discount, as long as the extra money raised from non-members stays with my contest to help offset the crazy expense of producing the contest. If KCBS decides down the road to collect that money too...I think I'll have to look elsewhere for support/recognition...perhaps a regional society/group/association who still work to promote and educate for the sake of bbq...not money.

With respect to regional associations/societies/groups...I would certainly hope that KCBS does not get into the business of mandating the fee structure of contests that are recognized by other groups such as NEBS, Iowa BBQ, or Illinois BBQ Society. I feel that these groups should be allowed to extend the same discount to their members who might not otherwise belong to KCBS. Some, if not all, of these regional groups pay membership fees to KCBS and should be allowed to extend limited 'benefits' of KCBS membership to their members...IMHO.

Carpe 'Que,
Jim

jminion
01-23-2008, 11:56 AM
Jim, has anyone asked the IRS?

Hell no!!! And I'm not sure that bad legal advice will protect us.

My personel feelings are that KCBS has no right to mandate fee structure (entry fees) to organizers. We can state if a organizer does not payout advertized awards that is a problem and KCBS would not sanction in the future. KCBS does not own the contests we provide a service.

Scottie
01-23-2008, 12:00 PM
no... That is why you do not have counsel that specializes in traffic tickets trying to represent an association... ;-) We have a whole group of attorneys that specialize in Association Law. Sometimes it's worth paying more up front. As paying it in the end can get very expensive..

** I have no idea who is representing the KCBS, just trying to make a funny.. But my guess is they didn't hire counsel that speicalizes in Association Law.

Scottie