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Bride of Roo(BQ'n)
01-03-2008, 04:17 PM
Hey all, Tom and I are starting our second year of competition and also our second year as event organizers (RiverCity Roundup, Omaha). We got this email today and I wanted to toss it out to you to see if you all have any opinion on this. (Its a cut and paste from email so please forgive any formatting oddities)....


Now that a new BBQ year is drawing near, we would like to update you on a very important recommendation we are making for 2008 team entry fees
For numerous reasons (quality and knowledge of competition being the primary ones), we believe it is to everyone’s benefit for competing teams at your event to be a member of KCBS

This doesn’t mean that you can’t have a team that is not a KCBS member. In fact, you can and probably will. However, as we continue to help promote your event throughout our network with our many properties, we want to encourage you to for teams that do NOT belong to KCBS.

Our recommendation is to charge an additional $25 for a non-KCBS team to enter your contest. To avoid this fee, all they have to prove is that one of their head cooks is a KCBS member in good standing by providing to you their KCBS member number. While this is a recommended action at this time, please note that we anticipate this program to be fully implemented at all contests in 2009.

How strongly do we feel about this? So much so that we are not even asking for the extra fees ourselves. We want and expect YOU to keep them. And furthermore, we will be promoting you in the bullsheet and on our web site as an event that offers a to KCBS teams (essentially, a discount on entry fees as opposed to non-KCBS teams).

So that we can get this additional publicity underway, we need to know if you will plan on following this pricing structure at your event. By clicking here (http://e2ma.net/go/872053391/756256/27218743/goto:http:/www.kcbs.us/event_directors.php), you will be given the chance to sign up at our web site and be included in our publicity efforts to the membership.

If you would like to discuss this further, please click here (info@kcbs.us), and one of our staff members or board members will follow up with you.

In closing, let us thank you for choosing KCBS as your sanctioning body. We are committed to making your experience the best possible, supporting you every way we can, and maintaining the high standards that we all have come to appreciate. We look forward to working with you in the year ahead. We expect that 2008 will be one of the best BBQ seasons ever!


Sincerely,
Carolyn Wells
KCBS Executive Director[/font]

HoDeDo
01-03-2008, 06:35 PM
Hmmm... how to word this...
1. I don't think the KCBS should be trying to dictate fees at events they do not sponsor. Organizers pay them for sanctioning, not marketing/pricing advice for thier events. As an organizer I would want to put my event first, not the ability of KCBS to market a "discount" to thier members. The decision would depend on the focus of the overall event, and it's end goal. Am I trying to draw the community in? Am I trying to get KCBS teams at my event? Am I a sponsorship event for the rotary or elks, etc? (maybe I give a discount to rotarians vs. KCBS members)
2. Many of the contests I have attended draw a contingent of "local" BBQ folks that are most likely members of thier own local BBQ societys that benefit them directly. As an organizer I would not want to alienate anyone from attending my event. I know KCBS want to be the premier entity that is top of mind for BBQ.... but if you are a state like Iowa with an active society... do you penalize it's local society members with a KCBS suggested/imposed fee?
3. I'm all for KCBS, and I am all for expanding their base and the folks they reach... but each individual event would have to assess if something like that was beneficial. Also - if you start to advertise discounts.... what about your event sponsors, who are putting up the money to make your event fly? They might want to dictate similar things.

I think alot more ramifications need to be considered before anything would be implemented as that mentions for 2009...

scottyd
01-03-2008, 06:47 PM
son of a gun good grief. what is it coming to. being dictated to. hmmm

The Pickled Pig
01-03-2008, 07:00 PM
I'm all in favor of requiring teams and judges for that matter to be members of KCBS. There is plenty of precedence for this and it makes good sense. And it's not a big requirement since only 1 member of a team has to prove membership. I think they should just roll the cost of membership for non-members into to every contest like they do for judging classes. What's the point of padding the organizers with $25 instead of charging $35 and making the team legit for the year? And if teams are already spending $500-$1500 to compete, what's an extra $35 paid once a year?

Since I'm already a member, getting the freeloaders off the tit can only benefit me. And as a competitor, I'd feel better knowing that everyone involved with a contest was a member of the organization.

Bigmista
01-03-2008, 07:24 PM
I'm with Andy on this one, especially since I am on the board of the California BBQ Association. Having a contest sanctioned by KCBS is one thing but requiring people to be a member to compete just doesn't work for us as I see. I've been competing here in California for a couple of years now and I haven't run up on anyone who came to one of our contests because they saw it on the KCBS website or in the Bullsheet.

Their marketing is meaningless to us. Sanctioning and training are great because it gives us a standard for competing and judging (even though that is a little suspect). I've said before that a better way to go about it is to make the prize money less for non-members. Most people would join for a shot at bigger prize. Honey versus vinegar approach.

"I'll give you a shot at a bigger prize if you join."

"If you don't join, you have to pay more money."

Which approach would persuade you to become a member?

HoDeDo
01-03-2008, 07:27 PM
I'm all in favor of requiring teams and judges for that matter to be members of KCBS. There is plenty of precedence for this and it makes good sense. And it's not a big requirement since only 1 member of a team has to prove membership. I think they should just roll the cost of membership for non-members into to every contest like they do for judging classes. What's the point of padding the organizers with $25 instead of charging $35 and making the team legit for the year? And if teams are already spending $500-$1500 to compete, what's an extra $35 paid once a year?

Since I'm already a member, getting the freeloaders off the tit can only benefit me. And as a competitor, I'd feel better knowing that everyone involved with a contest was a member of the organization.

Paul - Good points.... But KCBS is not sponsoring these events. Any money should definately go to the organizers or to the teams... KCBS is not doing this for free.... The organizers pay KCBS to sanction thier judging.
But, lets take your example 1 step further. The Frisco contest benefits the summit county Rotary Club. If I am the rotary club, and I see something like that "discount" -- as a SPONSOR, putting up bucks - why wouldnt I use that same logic and require all the teams to join up and become members of the rotary - roll it right into the fees....Do you want to join the rotary to be able to cook in thier contest?

Please explain to me the freeloader piece. If I am at Osage City, the Brian Injury assoc. cookoff, the GAB or the american royal..... those are all events sponsored by community/corporate $$, and usually supporting a good cause as well. My entry fees are to the event - not KCBS. Where does the freeloader part come in? I am already paying a premium to attend the event that they are sanctioning. Those events PAY KCBS to sanction thier judging. Why would you want them to give any additional monies they collect to the KCBS instead of thier own charitable causes?

Also... The judging and cooking are different. A judge pays to attend a class so that they can carry a title of CBJ. The KCBS sponsors and runs the classes. So it is fine for them to require membership to be able to certify you. You are attending thier function, with thier instructors.

Again, each contest should likely assess if it is valuable for them to do. Putting the needs/goals of thier event first. If KCBS starts sponsoring contests directly, I would think it is fine for them to require you be a member to compete in it. The APWA does this. They have a fund raiser/membership drive that is a BBQ contest. To complete you have to have at least one team member that is an APWA member. Sprint has a KCBS sanctioned BBQ contest.... it is for Sprint Employees only. If KCBS decides to host its own contests, by all means - restrict the cooking to members only.

Yakfishingfool
01-03-2008, 08:03 PM
OK, as I understand this. KCBS is saying, if you are going to come to us for sanctioning, that is our blessing and guidance with judging and rep's, etc. We want at least one person on that team to be a KCBS member. That means, when you have a winning team, they are a member of KCBS, that means the "franchise" of KCBS BBQ is a intact from organizer, to contest rep, to judges, to participating teams. Does McDonalds sell whoppers? Would it be ok if the blimpies down the street wanted to start selling quizno's?? Probably not. Why shouldn't an organization, like KCBS, say, and request that their potential TOY be a KCBS member. I wonder how other state or regional BBQ organizations feel, or would feel about a team coming in a winning, and then touting another BBQ orgainization as the organization to belong to. I'm in favor of this. May seem nuts, but I can fully understand KCBS saying we have a product, you come to us asking us to put our blessing on your product, and even use our comp reps and judges, and then you want to let a non KCBS team represent the event? Not sure I'd be happy with that outcome. Scott

Yakfishingfool
01-03-2008, 08:04 PM
as an aside, I believe we are seeing the infantcy of going from a backyard fun thing to a more organized, business oriented, futur looking program. Moving forward for all. Scott

Jeff_in_KC
01-03-2008, 08:08 PM
I have not spoken to Aimee or Jamey or anyone else on our committee about this yet but being as we've already set up our April contest, it won't be happening this year. I don't believe I'd personally support the idea in 2009 either. My guess is it will receive stiff opposition nationwide.

Jeff_in_KC
01-03-2008, 08:10 PM
Scott, then why not just exclude non-KCBS teams from competing in KCBS sanctioned events. We don't have amateurs competing in pro sports. We don't have NASCAR drivers jockeying horses.

The Pickled Pig
01-03-2008, 08:13 PM
First of all, wouldn't this be a great topic for our BOD candidates to weigh in on?

Second, I understand your perspective and I don't think this is a right or wrong type issue. And, I'm not nearly as passionate about it as my responses might indicate. I'll keep competing as long as I think the benfits I receive outweigh the costs.

But, lets take your example 1 step further. The Frisco contest benefits the summit county Rotary Club. If I am the rotary club, and I see something like that "discount" -- as a SPONSOR, putting up bucks - why wouldnt I use that same logic and require all the teams to join up and become members of the rotary - roll it right into the fees....Do you want to join the rotary to be able to cook in thier contest?

The sponsors should and do have a right to establish the terms and limitations of their sponsorship. However, I think in the case of BBQ contests, most sponsors want participation and eyeballs more than member fees. My guess is that the Rotary club wants people to see, touch, and spend money in Summit County more than they want out-of-towners to join their club.

All of the parties are free to do as they wish. If the organizaer thinks a $35 add-on isn't worth the KCBS sanction of their contest they can choose to do it without KCBS.

And if the KCBS wants to require every team have at least 1 KCBS member they can require it in order to be sanctioned at the risk of having fewer teams participate or fewer contests seeking sanctioning.

Please explain to me the freeloader piece. If I am at Osage City, the Brian Injury assoc. cookoff, the GAB or the american royal..... those are all events sponsored by community/corporate $$, and usually supporting a good cause as well. My entry fees are to the event - not KCBS. Where does the freeloader part come in? I am already paying a premium to attend the event that they are sanctioning. Those events PAY KCBS to sanction thier judging. Why would you want them to give any additional monies they collect to the KCBS instead of thier own charitable causes?

If you and other cooks didn't benefit from the KCBS sanctioning, why would you go to all of the trouble to compete in those contests? If I didn't care about the KCBS credentials, I certainly would save a lot of money each year and do a lot more backyard type BBQs. And remember, the organizers are not being forced to get sanctioned, they choose to do so. So maybe you should go to those organizers and tell them it would be better to do the event without the KCBS.

I, for one, couldn't care less about the charities and causes associated with these events. I've never been swayed to do or not do an event because of the needy causes they associate with. I kind of figure it's another tax I'm willing to pay in order to play and if it helps a good cause so much the better. I'm far more concerned about the well being of the KCBS than I am any of the charities I see connected to events. It'd be a heck of alot easier just to write a donation check than do everything I do to compete in a contest.

Like every organization the KCBS has operating expenses. Membership fees are certainly a source of revenue. Marketing and branding costs a lot of money. Why should others get the same benefit I do of those expenses without contributing equally to the cause?

Also... The judging and cooking are different. A judge pays to attend a class so that they can carry a title of CBJ. The KCBS sponsors and runs the classes. So it is fine for them to require membership to be able to certify you. You are attending thier function, with thier instructors.

I was using the judging class as an example. However, I would have no problems requiring all judges to be KCBS members too. And while we're at it, let's throw in the organizers and vendors. We all have a common interest in supporting the KCBS and we all share in its success.

Virtually every other professional sanctioning body requires competitors to be members...NCAA, PGA, Nascar, etc. Why is it so outrageous for the KCBS to require the same especially when it is such a nominal fee?

Sprint has a KCBS sanctioned BBQ contest.... it is for Sprint Employees only. If KCBS decides to host its own contests, by all means - restrict the cooking to members only.

Sprint is free to get KCBS sanctioning and KCBS is free to require membership.

tony76248
01-03-2008, 08:16 PM
as an aside, I believe we are seeing the infantcy of going from a backyard fun thing to a more organized, business oriented, futur looking program. Moving forward for all. Scott

Puh-lease, KCBS is beyond the point of infancy. I do not see them being held back by anything other than the number of comps that can be held in one weekend within a geographical region.

With all of the whining I hear from folks not happy with the judging procedures, that is where the changes should be taking place. The judging process is a total joke. It definitely isn't fair by any means. If one table scores low and another scores high, someone is obviously getting the shaft. Correct that problem before you attempt to get more folks to join by means of unwanted pressure.

Then you also have a limited number on prize winners per competition, spread the prize money out to 10 to 15 places in each category. That will increase the number of teams and allow you to receive additional money instead of hiking the fees for non members.

The Pickled Pig
01-03-2008, 08:18 PM
Scott, then why not just exclude non-KCBS teams from competing in KCBS sanctioned events. We don't have amateurs competing in pro sports. We don't have NASCAR drivers jockeying horses.


I think this is a step towards excluding non-KCBS teams from competing. What bozo would pay an extra $25 at each contest when they can become a KCBS member and at least get the Bullsheet for $35?

Both jockeys and race car drivers must be members of their sanctioning bodies to compete.

Yakfishingfool
01-03-2008, 08:28 PM
Puh-lease, KCBS is beyond the point of infancy. I do not see them being held back by anything other than the number of comps that can be held in one weekend within a geographical region.

With all of the whining I hear from folks not happy with the judging procedures, that is where the changes should be taking place. The judging process is a total joke. It definitely isn't fair by any means. If one table scores low and another scores high, someone is obviously getting the shaft. Correct that problem before you attempt to get more folks to join by means of unwanted pressure.

Then you also have a limited number on prize winners per competition, spread the prize money out to 10 to 15 places in each category. That will increase the number of teams and allow you to receive additional money instead of hiking the fees for non members.

A slightly cynical look at it isn't it? I don't consider these "unwanted pressure" rather a means to standardize an event. Judging is going to be the weak point in any activity. Whether it's Dances with the stars, or iron chef america, it is alway's subjectivity. If you are judged at the high table life isn't so bad, if at the low table, not so good. But I'd counter saying that 6 people at a table should mitigate any significant abnormalities in a judges experience/scoring. And why does everyone want KCBS sanctioning? And why does everyone consider Harley Davidson the american iron horse? S

Yakfishingfool
01-03-2008, 08:32 PM
I think this is a step towards excluding non-KCBS teams from competing. What bozo would pay an extra $25 at each contest when they can become a KCBS member and at least get the Bullsheet for $35?

Both jockeys and race car drivers must be members of their sanctioning bodies to compete.

For pickled pig and Jeff, the idea isn't to eliminate anyone, it's to encourage belonging to the KCBS. Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free? In our state organization, in nursing, the local dopes charge non members ten bucks for all the activities they attend. The membership is 200. Why join for 200 when 10 bucks gets you all the same things. They should charge 100 bucks, that encourages membership, which supprots the organziation providing the function, which in turn gives the parentorganziation more clout in theur area of specialty. If KCBS want's to be the recognized organiztion with BBQ, then these are the right moves. When I talk to folks about BBQ, I talk about the KCBS.

Merl
01-03-2008, 08:39 PM
This is not about dictating fees or tell organizers how to run a contest. This is about a few distinct issues.
1. There is a cost to sanction a contest. There is a cost to maintaining competition records. There is a cost to train Contest Reps. There is a cost to running the office. There are cost to everything. What do these cost provide.

2. Fair competition, where the rules are the same on the east coast or the west coast. Where you compete on a level playing field, where the bank or car dealership does not win every year. A competition where judges have an idea of what is good bbq. Need I go on. For all the reasons, both members and non members go the KCBS contest and not some other contest.

KCBS has two desires: To cover these cost and to provide a benefit to our members who pay a very small fee to be a member. I have had some tell me if they have to pay a fee to compete they will quit. Oh my gosh, I can't believe someone would say that.

So KCBS in the future will charge slightly more to cover these cost to non members who do receive the benefits paid by the members who support KCBS. Why would one want the benefits paid for by others?

So the result: Members have already paid the overhead and cost. Non members will pay as you go for the benefits members get all year. This is not different than the guy you to to, or any other club or association you may be a member.

I am sorry to go so long, but I proudly support the organization which bring me fair competition, great bbq and incredible friendships and all this for just $35.00.

Yours in Que
Merl

HoDeDo
01-03-2008, 08:49 PM
Scott-I too agree with what they want to do... just not how they want to do it. It would be great for KCBS to push for that continuity. I'm not saying it is the wrong idea... I'm just saying the execution of that by the method they are considering has the potential to backfire. It could alienate attendees/sponsors that are the main focus of the events. Many of these events would exist with or without KCBS.

To your Team of the Year point - why not focus on the part of the equation that KCBS controls. The TOY points/awards are run by KCBS. If you want to be TOY - be a member! That is a KCBS award, not tied to any specific event. I'd be 100% for requiring teams that want to get Team of the Year points to be members.

Or, if KCBS put money into the events, so they could be a season-long sponsor (like NASCAR, NBA, MLB, NCAA, etc) Then they should be allowed more control of the folks who enter thier events. Focus Marketing dollars on the ToY "race for the cup". (And putting money into the events would get them members... by having a consistent face across all events). I think it is a tough sell to get organizers, who are trying to support some other cause than KCBS, to put restrictions on who might be willing to pay an entry fee that helps thier cause/event. Make it something that is postive for the KCBS and the event, and you have a winning solution. Neil's point is excellent. Think of all the stuff going on in California.... but KCBS has no money invested in those events. KCBS gets paid to provide the judging/contest legitimacy. Those events would go on with or without the KCBS. KCBS could assign marketing dollars to contests that it deemed valuable to it's marketing goals - and then drive requirements like KCBS entry only, etc.

I think thier end goal is a great one - let just not jump into some type of 2009 mandate program and loss the momentum that exists today..

tony76248
01-03-2008, 08:50 PM
Merl,

I don't think that is where they are going at all. They make enough money not to have to charge any more. They receive a fee from the sponsoring organization, that should be enough and the sponsoring organization should make that determination and not the sanctioning body. You are trying to justify this but that was a poor attempt.

How many comps do you attend each year?

MilitantSquatter
01-03-2008, 08:53 PM
Merl - Thanks..

I'm in favor of all teams being required to be a KCBS member.

One question though in your post above. You note all the things that KCBS brings to the table for the $35 dues (at least for the teams, maybe not nearly as much value as for a judge or avid BBQ cook at home) who does not benefit as much.

BUT.. the first post above says that the organizer is entitled to keep the extra money.


1) If that is the case, how does this extra non-member fee help KCBS cover all their expenses and overhead ?

2) How is an organizer supposed to verify if a member # on an application is legitimate ? Is there a record somewhere for them to verify when applications are received ?

Yakfishingfool
01-03-2008, 08:56 PM
Merl,

I don't think that is where they are going at all. They make enough money not to have to charge any more. They receive a fee from the sponsoring organization, that should be enough and the sponsoring organization should make that determination and not the sanctioning body. You are trying to justify this but that was a poor attempt.

How many comps do you attend each year?

Tony, the extra money charged to a non KCBS team is kept at the contest organizer level. KCBS isn't asking for it. Merl makes a good point. KCBS is providing a service that benefits all BBQ'rs that aprticipate in a KCBS sanctioned event. Why should only those that belong and support KCBS be the ones footing the bill. When you take GC at XYZ contest and you're not a KCBS member, you get to say I won grandchampion at a KCBS sanctioned event. You got the benefit without any support. Scott

tony76248
01-03-2008, 09:05 PM
I guess what I should have said is that while one person thinks it is a good idea for one reason, there are others who will disagree.

I have participated in both IBCA and LSBS and I am only a member of IBCA, I have done well in both sanctioned cookoffs. Nobody ever pressured me to join one or the other, but I do like the added money that is given out in events where I am a member. That would be a better way to address it than making it manditory.

Jeff_in_KC
01-03-2008, 09:30 PM
Andy, outstanding thoughts! You wanna run for BOD next year? :wink:

HoDeDo
01-03-2008, 09:35 PM
First of all, wouldn't this be a great topic for our BOD candidates to weigh in on? Yes, It would!

I'll keep competing as long as I think the benfits I receive outweigh the costs. Agreed!

However, I think in the case of BBQ contests, most sponsors want participation and eyeballs more than member fees. My guess is that the Rotary club wants people to see, touch, and spend money in Summit County more than they want out-of-towners to join their club.

Missed my point... The rotary club might have the backing of Kroger Foods.... so they would drive the requirements, not a KCBS. The Dollar paying sponsors are doing so for the charity/community value and the writeoff - they are not doing it for KCBS.


And if the KCBS wants to require every team have at least 1 KCBS member they can require it in order to be sanctioned at the risk of having fewer teams participate or fewer contests seeking sanctioning. Agreed.

If you and other cooks didn't benefit from the KCBS sanctioning, why would you go to all of the trouble to compete in those contests? I pay a premium now to do KCBS contests, so yes we pay for the percieved benefits and value of sanctioning.


Like every organization the KCBS has operating expenses. Membership fees are certainly a source of revenue. Marketing and branding costs a lot of money. Why should others get the same benefit I do of those expenses without contributing equally to the cause? The organizers PAY for KCBS to sanction thier events. It's not like KCBS just does that out of the goodness of thier hearts. That is reflected in the entry fees of most contests... so someone entering is paying an equal share of that effort. . Again, if you want addtional value outside of the ability to run a contest. (TOY, judging, etc) then be a member.

I was using the judging class as an example. However, I would have no problems requiring all judges to be KCBS members too. And while we're at it, let's throw in the organizers and vendors. We all have a common interest in supporting the KCBS and we all share in its success. I'm all for it... but again, KCBS has no skin in the game... so not alot of say.

Virtually every other professional sanctioning body requires competitors to be members...NCAA, PGA, Nascar, etc. Why is it so outrageous for the KCBS to require the same especially when it is such a nominal fee?
All of those other bodies you mention co-marketing $$ for all the events in thier series; money invested in all of the events that their names are tied to. The KCBS has no money invested in the events. KCBS is paid by the organizers for the service of sanctioning the event by the organizers. Nascar pays a TON to advertise races that they are going to hold in KS - so of course they get a say on who does what. NCAA, same thing. They pay for alot of those NCAA ads you see that include the member schools. KCBS is not putting money into these events, they take fees for sanctioning them. That is a big difference between the bodies you mention and KCBS. If KCBS was putting money into the events as a series and doing the promotion etc. then I would be 100% in favor of the requirement they are asking for. But as a paid contributor, I don't feel they get the intended outcome.

I renewed my membership with my CBJ, At least one team member of the HoDeDos has always been a member - so we are all for expanding membership.

arlieque
01-03-2008, 09:36 PM
Merl and all the others, you all have made good points. I am all about supporting KCBS and making it grow! What I would like to know is how as organizers are we to know who is a member or not, the office of Fridays is often short handed and and when will the organizers be told if the entering teams are members,Friday is really to late. Also if you cash there checks it will create more work for the organizers. In 08 we are strongly asked to do this and in 09 it will be mandatory to charge more so in 2010 will it be mandatory that to cook a KCBS contest you have to be a member? What then if someone slips through the cracks and wins money, will a team under comes and states that a teams isnt a member,do you throw them out and have to return money they have won. This idea may be great but it is worded wrong and there are better ways to get more membership. As an organizer the letter was sent with no directions on how we are to know anything about membership. One would think the entire program would have be laid out for us? Guess time will tell! Another thing if you live in the nebs area and you are not a member and the contest is KCBS sanctioned will you have to join KCBS and NEBS? Hard to support till all the questions are answered and the program is laid out.

HoDeDo
01-03-2008, 09:44 PM
Merl and all the others, you all have made good points. I am all about supporting KCBS and making it grow! What I would like to know is how as organizers are we to know who is a member or not, the office of Fridays is often short handed and and when will the organizers be told if the entering teams are members,Friday is really to late. Also if you cash there checks it will create more work for the organizers. In 08 we are strongly asked to do this and in 09 it will be mandatory to charge more so in 2010 will it be mandatory that to cook a KCBS contest you have to be a member? What then if someone slips through the cracks and wins money, will a team under comes and states that a teams isnt a member,do you throw them out and have to return money they have won. This idea may be great but it is worded wrong and there are better ways to get more membership. As an organizer the letter was sent with no directions on how we are to know anything about membership. One would think the entire program would have be laid out for us? Guess time will tell! Another thing if you live in the nebs area and you are not a member and the contest is KCBS sanctioned will you have to join KCBS and NEBS? Hard to support till all the questions are answered and the program is laid out.

Thanks Arlie, a better example from a seasoned organizer... Those are my points exactly.

HoDeDo
01-03-2008, 10:00 PM
Andy, outstanding thoughts! You wanna run for BOD next year? :wink:

I dont think I will be getting/accepting any nominations.:rolleyes: I completed all my external board duties for various groups as of this month. No more internal politics for me for a while!

Jeff_in_KC
01-03-2008, 10:04 PM
Arlie, seems KCBS would need to make a database available to all organizers to log in and check for membership. That's the only way I see it could be done.

Bigmista
01-03-2008, 10:19 PM
2. Fair competition, where the rules are the same on the east coast or the west coast. Where you compete on a level playing field, where the bank or car dealership does not win every year. A competition where judges have an idea of what is good bbq. Need I go on. For all the reasons, both members and non members go the KCBS contest and not some other contest.

KCBS has two desires: To cover these cost and to provide a benefit to our members who pay a very small fee to be a member. I have had some tell me if they have to pay a fee to compete they will quit. Oh my gosh, I can't believe someone would say that.


But as I understand it, doesn't the KCBS charge the promoter for sanctioning?

So if you want a discount, you have to pay for something that has already been paid for? I'm not saying that a KCBS shouldn't charge for their membership but don't say that these new members are paying for something that the promoter already paid for.

Yakfishingfool
01-03-2008, 10:31 PM
the promoter paid for the sanctioning rights. The additional money in goes to the promoter. What KCBS appears to be doing IMHO, is get everyone participating in KCBS sanctioned event to be a KCBS member. By charging a nominal fee above the entry fee for non members, a typical non member would realize that after two comps. it would be cheaper to be a member. KCBS get's a member, The new member gets the bullsheet and all the other benefits of belonging to KCBS, including a discounted off non member rate for KCBS sanctioned events. Scott

Mutha Chicken BBQ
01-03-2008, 10:48 PM
Yea --But KCBS events are becoming too expensive as is now! 200-250 per event. I am over a grand a weekend on my end just to show up and compete. They will push the little guy out of competing. Just as Nascar and every other sport has done.

bigabyte
01-04-2008, 07:39 AM
As someone looking to get into competing, I would say this is a bad idea. I let my membership expire in 2007 only because I was on hiatus from BBQ for health reasons, but am joining again for 2008 and looking to compete. Every year it is more and more about money for KCBS and less and less about competition. You can try and justify it all you want to try and make it look justified to other board members or seasoned teams, but to the little guys it is just a bunch of nonsense. Of course, why should you listen to the little guys, right? You're only interested in the bigger guys and all those bucks.

I would like to hear the BOD candidates opinions on this as it will influence my decisions.

ThomEmery
01-04-2008, 07:49 AM
I am with Arlie on this one
We have enough to do without this
I am already pushing CBBQA membership
But that has direct bottom line benefit to me
CBBQA is where I find my teams and Get them into a meaningful ToY race
here in California

Bbq Bubba
01-04-2008, 07:50 AM
Arlie, seems KCBS would need to make a database available to all organizers to log in and check for membership. That's the only way I see it could be done.

Would it be that hard to have a farken membership card???

arlieque
01-04-2008, 08:07 AM
Membership card or not this will be additional work on both ends to see this through. You have a membership number right now, do you know were it is at? One way this can work is you enter the contest with your number, when the reps enter that number in the PC at the contest the rest of your info is put in automatically. That way the reps know all teams are legal and it takes all the work away from the organizer and any legal issue that could come from this. As I said if the BOD thought this was so great how come we only get a letter and no one has answered how as organizers we will keep up with this. How about the reps doing a little work for KCBS: At a contest there is one organizer and there are at least two reps and at some there are three or more. What is wrong with the reps working the teams for membership. They could have apps in hand, collect money and mail in with the score cards after the contest. Why just single out the organizers to do the work? We have had plenty of work over several months to do to get ready for the contest and now during the last week we have to make sure who is a member or not. When you see a sale in the paper dont you feel sometimes that in the last few weeks they have raised there price so they can put on sale? Will we see higher prices so that w can discount down to the regular price we wanted? I feel this issue you should be dropped and re thought. How many non member teams and organizers were called and consulted before they announced this? Enough said, bad idea!!!!!!

SP
01-04-2008, 08:16 AM
A competition where judges have an idea of what is good bbq. Merl


Does this mean that all contest will have only CBJ's?

Diva
01-04-2008, 08:29 AM
Merl and all the others, you all have made good points. I am all about supporting KCBS and making it grow! What I would like to know is how as organizers are we to know who is a member or not, the office of Fridays is often short handed and and when will the organizers be told if the entering teams are members,Friday is really to late.

Why would an organizer wait til Friday? Most contestants send in their applications WAY before the day OF a contest.

lunchlady
01-04-2008, 08:48 AM
What person would pay an extra $25 at each contest when they can become a KCBS member and at least get the Bullsheet for $35?

That's the idea... after two contests your membership fee has paid for itself, if your doing more than two a year. PLUS, you now get the Bullsheet, and that membership money is now helping KCBS to keep on doing what they have been doing... promoting BBQ nationally.

I tend to agree that it will take more effort from the organizers, unless the KCBS technology keeps up. That was a good idea Arlie.

NEBS doesn't require you to be a NEBS member to compete, but if you're NOT, and then you enter a contest - for the higher fee - they then give you a year's membership for the money. Haven't had anyone say no they dont want the membership.

I am sure this will come up at the Organizer's Round Table in KC in a coupla weeks.
Until then, chat at your BoD members and prospective BoD members... and don't forget to vote!

arlieque
01-04-2008, 08:54 AM
You wouldnt have till Friday in most cases but your membership could expire on thursday before a contest,right?

Roo-B-Q'N
01-04-2008, 08:55 AM
Membership card or not this will be additional work on both ends to see this through. You have a membership number right now, do you know were it is at? One way this can work is you enter the contest with your number, when the reps enter that number in the PC at the contest the rest of your info is put in automatically. That way the reps know all teams are legal and it takes all the work away from the organizer and any legal issue that could come from this. As I said if the BOD thought this was so great how come we only get a letter and no one has answered how as organizers we will keep up with this. How about the reps doing a little work for KCBS: At a contest there is one organizer and there are at least two reps and at some there are three or more. What is wrong with the reps working the teams for membership. They could have apps in hand, collect money and mail in with the score cards after the contest. Why just single out the organizers to do the work? We have had plenty of work over several months to do to get ready for the contest and now during the last week we have to make sure who is a member or not. When you see a sale in the paper dont you feel sometimes that in the last few weeks they have raised there price so they can put on sale? Will we see higher prices so that w can discount down to the regular price we wanted? I feel this issue you should be dropped and re thought. How many non member teams and organizers were called and consulted before they announced this? Enough said, bad idea!!!!!!

AMEN! the reps do little to nothing that I have seen on Friday nights. This may not be true of all reps but in the contests I have cooked they could be out there stumping to expand their membership base and not have the organizers be the bad guys.

For the $300 -$450 dollar sanctioning fee, plus the $12 per team, plus the computer charge :roll:, that organizers pay KCBS, they are doing alright. If this is "benefit" issue, than lock out the website to members only and in this manner the only true benefit of being a KCBS member (listing of contests) is kept secure and away from non members. They will have to find out where a contest is being held somewhere else.

Diva
01-04-2008, 08:58 AM
First of the month, depending on where that date falls.....

Ford
01-04-2008, 09:09 AM
Would it be that hard to have a farken membership card???
I have a membership card but no expiry date on it. Doesn't mean a thing except it helps me remember my number. Of course that's on the bullsheet.

Transformer BBQ
01-04-2008, 09:31 AM
How about the reps doing a little work for KCBS: At a contest there is one organizer and there are at least two reps and at some there are three or more. What is wrong with the reps working the teams for membership. They could have apps in hand, collect money and mail in with the score cards after the contest. Why just single out the organizers to do the work?


How about the reps doing a little work? seriously? I am not a rep, but lets look into this cushy position that you think they are sitting on their hands doing.

I am going to be conservative on this. say 5 hours Friday... checking meat, dealing with teams, doing inspections, making sure the judging area is ready to go, cooks meeting, New teams meatting... My guess this is more like 9+ hours in reality... but we'll use 5.

Game Day-- Arrive around 7, leave around 5 best case. Deal with judges, deal with finiding judges when people don't show up, the judges meeting, 2 hours of judging food, disqualifications, do the scoring, run the awards, ceremony...

so 15 hours... 2 people 30 hours of work. $300 bucks... $10/hr wow, not too bad. Oh, they drove to the event? well take off $60 because they used gas. $8/hr Oh, they slept in a hotel? Assume they are married... paid $75 for the night... $5.5/hr

Oh... one of them is paid by the hour at work? they weren't there friday? they spent 8 hours in the car? They have been dealing with an organizer for 4 months?

Now they should have to deal with checking/ selling memberships? Who is keeping that extra money from the teams? the organizer? Not sure why a rep would have to shoulder this duty when the organizer would see the $$, and considering it seem like its going to become a requirment to be sanctioned... then it fall squarely on an oganizer. (The reps wouldn't be ther in the first place unless the teams all had KCBS membership anyway)

And with all the sport comparisons... a player in MLB does NOT have to belong to the Players association. Most do... but some play pro baseball and choose not to.

Diva
01-04-2008, 09:43 AM
I'm with you on that! Thing is, meals, accommodations, travel are paid for by the organizer. HOWEVER, they deal with the organizers on the phone for months, like you said, some have to take a day or two off of work to rep a contest.

Thing is, there are SO many variables in this WHOLE situation and basically, the situation is just an outline at this time. Everybody has their two cents, me included, and everybody has the right to voice their opinion, but the thing is, if people don't want to play, don't. The chances of anyone on here NOT playing, nil to none....me included.

One of the other things, we can all beat this thing to death, but, who are we really speaking to, other than each other? Only so many of the "powers that be" read forums. And no one says they should/shouldn't do otherwise. Their emails are on the website, click on them, send this stuff to THEM, that's the only way any of this will, honestly, be resolved.

tony76248
01-04-2008, 09:43 AM
Yea --But KCBS events are becoming too expensive as is now! 200-250 per event. I am over a grand a weekend on my end just to show up and compete. They will push the little guy out of competing. Just as Nascar and every other sport has done.

I agree whole heartedly, I read here where some folks can only afford a few comps a year. Well based on a low number of comps these teams will fall way behind the power curve. Something needs to be done to lower the costs not raise them!

BBQchef33
01-04-2008, 09:57 AM
A lot of stuff in this thread that made my head spin. :redface: So, I'll just weigh in from the top with some scattered thoughts.

years ago, In one of my first contests i did, there were 2 fees.

$175 for KCBS members
$200 for non members

I was not a KCBS member at the time, and so I joined up and took the lesser cost for the contest, and looked at it as KCBS cost me 10 bucks to join. I was not aware that this was(at the time) a unique situation. I didn't even flinch at the KCBS Entry fee and like many here, I thought it was part of the cost of doing business to be a member of the sanctioning body that sanctioned the contest.. Made sense to me.

that all being said, i see alot that needs to be worked out in this scenario.

1 - Simply worded as a "discount to KCBS members" as opposed to "requiring membership", "charging more", etc would make this slide easier. It's simple marketing.

2 - c'mon.. we have all said 'what do I get for my 35 bucks beside the bullsheet." (BTW, Thats something I would like to look into If I make BOD.) I spoke with Merl about the intangible of "supporting the santioning body and the sport.", but to us guys on the street, thats meaningless to some extent. $15-20 dollars in coupons, or a 'discount card to a few of the online shops or even the KCBS store is a tangible that a member feels he got at least something besides the bullsheet. But then comes the administration, or getting someone willing to offer that to members. Offering a 25$ discount on contest entry fees can be a tangible that we get for our 35$. One contest can pay for the entry fee.

Chances are a high majority of those(coupons) would not even be used, but an entry fee 'discount" would be by anyone competing... its the psychology behind it. Case in point, I donated 25 bucks to our highscool football team. With it came a plastic coupon card good for ayear of unlimited use, for 10% off at a bunch of local deli's, pizza shops, etc.. Quick math said the card pays for itself with 5 pizzas. Done deal. To cut to the chase, I NEVER ONCE USED THE CARD. But I justified buying it AND I helped out the football team. Its marketing. I got something for my 25 bucks. Its was up to me to use it and I KNEW i was gonna be buying pizzas. :mrgreen:

KCBS has 3 types of members. Competitors, judges and enthusiasts. All of them will use up this fee at some point.

1 - the competitor will make the fee up the first time out. (add in the cost of the bullsheet for the extra 10$)
2 -the judge, if he is not a competitor has already payed the fee to keep his judging status active
3 - the enthusisast.. Well, if u want the bullsheet, u pay 35 bucks, Its the cost of your hobby. if you just want to support the organization, you pay 35 bucks, and if you ever decided to join the dark side and compete, u just paid for your membership with the discount.

(4- organizers.. Im sure they will make up the 35 dollars at one event.)

so for those guys, wheres the problem?



3 - BIG problem... Putting this on the organizer? OMG.. don't they have enough to do? Whos the cop making sure its being done. DOES he HAVE to do it if he chooses not to? What if he just blankets the contest with 25 dollars and says everyone is a member. He gets to keep the money anyway so this can be slid in under the sheets an no one would know. It WILL generate work for someone somewhere, otherwise, its the honor system.

4 - Sponsorships. WTF is that? The contests around here had next to NO sponsorships. ALL(100%) sponsorship went to the charity we supported. The entire bill FOR THE CONTEST was footed by the chamber of commerce and the organizer with a few donations here and there. OVER 100% of the entry fees went to the prize pool and amenities. So sponsors around here, so far would have little or no say in how the contests or $$ are distributed.


So, in a nutshell, I don't see much wrong with offering a discount to KCBS members at a contest. i do see something wrong with 'charging more'. yes its a matter of semantics. I do see alot of gotchas in the proposed execution and the way its being presented. If this entire thing was posted as

:eusa_clapKCBS Members get 25$ discounts at all sanctioned events:eusa_clap


and the entry fees were quietly adjusted accordingly by the organizers would we even be having this conversation?

Transformer BBQ
01-04-2008, 09:58 AM
I'm with you on that! Thing is, meals, accommodations, travel are paid for by the organizer. HOWEVER, they deal with the organizers on the phone for months, like you said, some have to take a day or two off of work to rep a contest.


Thanks Steph,

Ok, I was off on some of the expenses... but my point was made. Honestly it doesn't matter to me if the price is different, I keep my KCBS membership because I want to keep my status as a judge...

(I'd be curious as to how many CBJ's are current members in good standing of KCBS, which is a requirment)

Two questions related to this:

Does everyone on the tema have to be a member? or just the persons name on the entry form?

How does one re-new a KCBS membership? I see online where to get a new one, but not how to renew one that is about to expire...

Diva
01-04-2008, 10:02 AM
My understanding of it (which isn't much, I was off for a week when this all went down) is that it has to be one member of the team.

Renewal, they're working on a renewal deal for the website. Otherwise, mail a check in with the renewal invoice you'll receive OR call the 800 number and do it by phone with a cc.

arlieque
01-04-2008, 10:08 AM
Thanks Phil.

KCBS Members get 25$ discounts at all sanctioned events is the key! Now adjusting the fees is what is going to happen, So if you were paying $175 it will have to go to $200 so that you get your discount back to $175.00,right? And $25.00, why not make it $35.00 so that those teams dont have a choice, they just become members. As you said this wasnt even thought through because if it was we would not even be talking about it.

Phill we need you on the board so I hope all we vote!

River City Smokehouse
01-04-2008, 10:10 AM
Quote: Yep...this pill would have swallowed a lot easier....
:eusa_clapKCBS Members get 25$ discounts at all sanctioned events:eusa_clap

Like Phil said. Sometimes it's how you say it. This definitely could have been approached a lot differently with a lot different outcome. Back when I started to compete I joined before I cooked my first contest. I just thought it was the thing to do. I wanted to become as involved as I could in something I was going to participate whole heartedly in. This is something that isn't going to go away any time soon I'm sure. Change is part of life and sometimes hard to accept. If you're gonna dance you gotta pay the band, or so I was raised to that old saying anyways.

Diva
01-04-2008, 10:12 AM
What I'm not getting is how is it considered a "discount". It's the same price, period, UNLESS you're not a member. Fanagling of words.

willkat98
01-04-2008, 10:17 AM
If you get charged more to enter a KCBS event, then you should get a rebate for non-100% KCBS certified judging.

The sanction don't mean chit if the judging is chit.

SP
01-04-2008, 10:25 AM
If you get charged more to enter a KCBS event, then you should get a rebate for non-100% KCBS certified judging.

The sanction don't mean chit if the judging is chit.

Bingo

ique
01-04-2008, 10:28 AM
:eusa_clapKCBS Members get 25$ discounts at all sanctioned events:eusa_clap





This is what NEBS has always done, never heard anyone complain.

arlieque
01-04-2008, 10:32 AM
There you do it isnt a discount unless you are not a memeber. You or anyone else in the office doesnt need the extra work. I think we are all about growing KCBS; making it better and more profitable. This should have been a whole system membership drive and not threw on just the organizers. What if the Diva's in the office were told you have to get us x amount of new members this year? How would you feel? Dont you have enough to do, I feel you do and are under paid! How about a 50% raise for the office staff?

arlieque
01-04-2008, 10:33 AM
This is what NEBS has always done, never heard anyone complain.

NEBS has made you a member though,right?

BBQchef33
01-04-2008, 10:35 AM
What I'm not getting is how is it considered a "discount". It's the same price, period, UNLESS you're not a member. Fanagling of words.


Yup.. its all in the wording.

Our recommendation is to charge an additional $25 for a non-KCBS team to enter your contest. To avoid this fee, all they have to prove is that one of their head cooks is a KCBS member in good standing by providing to you their KCBS member number. 2009. :eek::mad:



Our recommendation is to offer a $25 discount to all KCBS teams who enter your contest. To receive this discount, all they have to prove is that one of their head cooks is a KCBS member in good standing by providing to you their KCBS member number. Adjust your fees accordingly to accomodate the discount and not have a negative effect on your bottom line.
:eusa_clap:eusa_clap


hey!! , we got something for the 35$ besides the bullsheet...(a tangible item)

AND most likely, this will encourage more sign-ups as opposed to people deciding to NOT compete. :frown:

HoDeDo
01-04-2008, 11:05 AM
If you get charged more to enter a KCBS event, then you should get a rebate for non-100% KCBS certified judging.

The sanction don't mean chit if the judging is chit.

There are alot of other things that will rear thier ugly heads with a 1/2 way thought out implementation.

This would be an interesting one.... for sure.

michiana mark
01-04-2008, 11:05 AM
I don't see a problem with KCBS requiring membership to play at their sanctioned events. Having been a member of the largest automobile racing sanctioning body ( NHRA ), membership was required for the participant. The crew members were not required, but the driver was. When you Teched in, check in, your credentials where always required. If you didn't have them, a phone call to the home office was made. If you weren't a member, you didn't get to play...........

People would complain about membership fee's, $85 for a year, and you got a weekly mag. Entry fees where $300 for National events, you got to race. Talk about money, BBQ pales in comparison to drag racing. The category we raced in, here's a simple breakdown.

Dragster, complete $85000- $90000 Life expectancy two years.
Spare motor, Dodge small block $60000
Spare trans and associated parts. $20000
Racing fuel $7/ gal MPG 1/4
Transporter $200000
Crew expenses per race per person $400 per race, 20 races per year.
equipment maintenance $100000 per year

The guys I worked for spent an average $500000 per year. Here's what they raced for. If you won, you could figure on winning about $4000.
If you got past first round you got a $100.

Can you imagine that people line up to do this, and why pay NHRA fee's, because they are the BEST and MOST PROMINENT in their sport and the sponsors go their.

Be a member, and make KCBS the BEST at what they do, be proud to be a member.:-D

arlieque
01-04-2008, 11:06 AM
How about a fee free entry into a BBQ Brethren BBQ Championship.

ique
01-04-2008, 11:09 AM
NEBS has made you a member though,right?

Yeah, I think its for example, $150 for members and $185 for non-members and you get a membership.

The problem does come with the contest organizer administering the membership dollars.

arlieque
01-04-2008, 11:16 AM
Yep racing and cooking bbq is two different things. If we were getting national sponsorship as the MMA marketing firm is suppose to be doing as I understand it then you might see KCBS sponsored events. If you rememeber we were asked about a smoking sponsor and some people didnt like it. maybe we need big memebrship cards hanging around our necks at event like Nascar. When I have been in the pits you have to have that around your neck at all times.

tony76248
01-04-2008, 11:16 AM
I wanted to make one thing clear. I am all for membership, I just do not think it should be manditory. I also thought there was some poor reasoning stated in this thread, but also some very good reasoning.

The fee is minimal, but for a first timer out there who is delving into comp bbq for the first time, I think they should not be forced into joining. I do think that to promote growth, this is not the answer, but joining is good for many reasons listed here and not some of the thoughtless reasons listed here.

Roo-B-Q'N
01-04-2008, 11:29 AM
I am going to be conservative on this. say 5 hours Friday... checking meat, dealing with teams, doing inspections, making sure the judging area is ready to go, cooks meeting, New teams meatting... My guess this is more like 9+ hours in reality... but we'll use 5.


Again not all reps but let me talk aout the last two contests I was involved in. One contest I didn't even see the rep (only one) until cooks meeting and then again at awards. The other contest, two showed up around 4, cooks meeting was at 6 and by 6:30 one had gone for the day the other was eating and drinking in a cooks tent. They did go and meet all of the teams, at least those around me.

Reps are not responsible for checking meat or inspecting sites. That is the responsiblity of the organizers.



Game Day-- Arrive around 7, leave around 5 best case. Deal with judges, deal with finiding judges when people don't show up, the judges meeting, 2 hours of judging food, disqualifications, do the scoring, run the awards, ceremony...

Again with my 2 examples. Don't know what time the rep showed up in the first example above, but I am sure he was there at first turn in.

Second example, one showed up around 8:30 or 9 and walked around with the clock. Don't know what time the second one showed up but he did make it to a second teams site for breakfast. After that there was a bit of a discussion on judges tent, but that was taken care of fairly quickly. Nothing until first turn in and they did their duties clear to the end. One judge running the computer wanted an opinion on a score and the second judge was nowhere to be found. Took them about a half hour to find him and yep you guessed it, with yet another team eating. Reps have never run an awards ceremony in any contes that I have judged, competed in or organized. That is the job of the organizer.



so 15 hours... 2 people 30 hours of work. $300 bucks... $10/hr wow, not too bad. Oh, they drove to the event? well take off $60 because they used gas. $8/hr Oh, they slept in a hotel? Assume they are married... paid $75 for the night... $5.5/hr

Oh... one of them is paid by the hour at work? they weren't there friday? they spent 8 hours in the car? They have been dealing with an organizer for 4 months?

Ok have never seen 15 hours but it may happen. The 300 doesn't go to the reps that I know of, like judges and cooks it is all volunteer. So just like the cook who took friday off they did it at their own free will. But unlike the cooks and judges the event pays for their travel including air fare and mileage. Hotels and any and all meals. So no money out of their pocket what so ever.

And the contest I organized we got one phone call from the rep asking what hotel he was going to be staying at and the second rep only wanted emails and he had two the month of the event from us.

Now they should have to deal with checking/ selling memberships? Who is keeping that extra money from the teams? the organizer? Not sure why a rep would have to shoulder this duty when the organizer would see the $$, and considering it seem like its going to become a requirment to be sanctioned... then it fall squarely on an oganizer. (The reps wouldn't be ther in the first place unless the teams all had KCBS membership anyway)

Yes they should be doing more for thier cause that they have choosen to represent in a larger manner than merely competing and judging or reading the Bullsheet.

As stated in the letter that came out the reasons they are doing this is "For numerous reasons (quality and knowledge of competition being the primary ones), we believe it is to everyone’s benefit for competing teams at your event to be a member of KCBS." How does forcing everyone to be a member make a comp higher quality. Are they now saying up to this point all of their sanctioned comps have been subpar?? Of course not, so no quality issues exist. As to knowledge of comps, the Bullsheet is only sent to members, and they can have the website members only and they have to join to enter the website . . . you know kind of like this one. You have to register but you don't have to pay to be a member.

And why does everyone search out sanctioned only comps??? Because teams have placed them on a pedestal and made them more than what they are. Backyard comps and non sanctioned events occur all of the time with much success and happen year after year. If you are going for ToY for the KCBS then great become a member and go for it, they should state in the rules somewhere that ToY must be a member in good standing in the organization. If it isn't listed then the BOD has missed the boat on that one. If not they don't get to play for KCBS ToY points.

Please don't take this as a personal attack on you Transformer as it is not meant to be. I had a rude awakening in my first year as an organizer and I just don't think that many people fully understand the tremendous amount of work an organizer does for an event compared to what the reps do for an event. They have more than ample time to stump for memberships and being reps of the organization they ought to have this as a priority.

arlieque
01-04-2008, 11:43 AM
Well said, Branden didnt really know what he was talking about in my opinion. The reps get there hotels and about .485 cents per miles for fuel. that is $9.70 per gallon based on 20 miles per gallon. As a organizer we have pleanty to do and I hardly here from the reps till the event nor do I need too! I have had reps show up at 4.00pm on Friday too! Never at 7.00AM on saturday have I ever seen a rep! We have many good reps, it isnt there job to baby sit the organizer. Most will help when asked and do! Again there is just better wording for this issue and it should also have ben spread around. Also kind of interesting that some BOD 's are reading this and dont have anything to say????

Bigmista
01-04-2008, 12:17 PM
PLUS, you now get the Bullsheet, and that membership money is now helping KCBS to keep on doing what they have been doing... promoting BBQ nationally.



Exactly when does this happen? I compete in California and I have never seen a KCBS television ad, radio spot or newspaper blurb. Does this happen in other parts of the country?

The only time the KCBS is mentioned is in conjuction with an event that is already happening so how are they promoting something that is happening with or without them?

I don't know of anybody here in California or any of the surrounding states that says, "Hey I saw on the KCBS website that you are having a contest in Los Angeles. How can I participate?" Where is this National marketing and promotion that I keep hearing about? Contests promoters and organizers do all the marketing. Not the KCBS as far as I can tell.

How about the reps doing a little work? seriously? I am not a rep, but lets look into this cushy position that you think they are sitting on their hands doing.

I am going to be conservative on this. say 5 hours Friday... checking meat, dealing with teams, doing inspections, making sure the judging area is ready to go, cooks meeting, New teams meatting... My guess this is more like 9+ hours in reality... but we'll use 5.

Game Day-- Arrive around 7, leave around 5 best case. Deal with judges, deal with finiding judges when people don't show up, the judges meeting, 2 hours of judging food, disqualifications, do the scoring, run the awards, ceremony...

so 15 hours... 2 people 30 hours of work. $300 bucks... $10/hr wow, not too bad. Oh, they drove to the event? well take off $60 because they used gas. $8/hr Oh, they slept in a hotel? Assume they are married... paid $75 for the night... $5.5/hr

Oh... one of them is paid by the hour at work? they weren't there friday? they spent 8 hours in the car? They have been dealing with an organizer for 4 months?

Now they should have to deal with checking/ selling memberships? Who is keeping that extra money from the teams? the organizer? Not sure why a rep would have to shoulder this duty when the organizer would see the $$, and considering it seem like its going to become a requirment to be sanctioned... then it fall squarely on an oganizer. (The reps wouldn't be ther in the first place unless the teams all had KCBS membership anyway)



I have never seen a rep do all of this. I see the rep at the cooks meeting and at the turn-in booth. And at no time has any representative discussed the benefits of being a KCBS member with me. Shouldn't the be "representing" the organization by talking about it and helping grow the membership?

KC_Bobby
01-04-2008, 12:37 PM
The only problem with "discounting" for being a KCBS member is what if someone chooses to be a member of NEBS, Iowa, California, (insert local BBQ association) instead of KCBS?

I don't know how those associations work with KCBS, but I assume in some facit as comps in those states/areas seem to be sanctioned by KCBS. If these other associations "play by the same rules", I think their members should also receive the discount.

Are CBJ's in New England trained by KCBS or NEBS reps?

ique
01-04-2008, 12:53 PM
Are CBJ's in New England trained by KCBS or NEBS reps?

KCBS.

Transformer BBQ
01-04-2008, 12:58 PM
Please don't take this as a personal attack on you Transformer as it is not meant to be. I had a rude awakening in my first year as an organizer and I just don't think that many people fully understand the tremendous amount of work an organizer does for an event compared to what the reps do for an event. They have more than ample time to stump for memberships and being reps of the organization they ought to have this as a priority.

I don't take it personal at all. I was wrong on the fact on the hotel and travel expenses... but the $300 does go back to the reps of the contest from what I have been told in the past.

And with your examples, I sort of understand where we see differences. In New England, a lot of times the meat at contests, and the team sites, is inspected by the Reps. I can think of only one contest that wasn’t off the top of my head.

In New England we see the same groups of reps, I see the reps most contests more than I see the organizers. I have never once thought that they were sitting around getting a free ride of the deal. Most times I wonder if I could put up with all the stuff they do… and I always think that their dedication to the hobby is impressive.

While my limited experience is primarily New England, I did cook Dover, DE this year. I was late arriving because of NY traffic.. I called ahead because I was going to miss the cooks meeting. When I arrived maybe 7 or 8, the rep and some event people were at the gate to the event, they inspected the meat in my truck, gave me my turn in boxes... answered any questions... gave me a business card with his cell number to contact him if there were any problems...

So this is what I see from a team perspective. Obviously, your experience doesn’t match.

I didn’t mean to get on this tangent about Reps, like I said, I have absolutely no issues. I think we all need to be ambassadors of the hobby, and it does help everyone when this gets bigger and more popular. I was just cautioning on passing these duties to reps, who like organizers… seem pretty Farking busy from my site.

Ford
01-04-2008, 01:30 PM
I've done about 30 contests here in the upper midwest with many different reps and I think with one exception I've had pretty good to excellent Reps. Most times I don't see them until afternoon sometime and I usually arrive the night before or early morning on Friday. Generally speaking they try to meet with all the teams both Friday and Saturday. They are onsite around the time of the cooks meeting and then early evening and are often back by 8 on Saturday. Some actually come back at 7 am for my beef tenderloin breakfast but that's another story.

It was my understanding that reps got $100 plus expenses unless it's gone up and that is paid by the organizer in addition to the KCBS fees. For that they get abused, insulted and at times threatened just because they try to enforce the KCBS rules. Now keep in mind that the organizer is responsible for enforcement of most rules including quiet time but only the Rep can DQ a team. But the organizer can have the team removed without needing a rep by ordering them off the porperty.

Personally I think the Reps could hand out promotional material for the KCBS at contests where there are non KCSB cooks and talk with teams more. But like I said I'm not complaining.

Spydermike72
01-04-2008, 02:11 PM
I think there needs more thought put into this, and some discussion with membership. I would be curious to see where this idea came from and what exactly is the purpose of this extra money/discount ? It apparently is not benefitting KCBS finacially and if anything it is causing more work for the individual contests/organizers for minimal gain. If someone could provide a cost benefit analysis that shows the benefits then I might be on board with it.

River City Smokehouse
01-04-2008, 02:14 PM
I think on top of all of this...a team should get a $25 discount per contest if there is a active KCBS CBJ on the team, $35 if they are a MCBJ.:roll:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_145_43.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824YYUS):biggrin:

paydabill
01-04-2008, 04:07 PM
I put this under the voting - I am copying here.

Wow - I have been out of the loop. However, here are my .02.

1st - I have been a member of the KCBS for 2 years now. Outside of the Bullsheet, I do nto see membership having its privilages. I know that they are a sanctioning body, and that the fees go towards running the business. Yet, I have never gotten something from the site becuase I was a member, or did I get a discount that anybody else could get. I understand at some contest they have fought for pay outs and such, but I never had that problem.

2nd - this year I pay $35, what happens next year they raise it to $50, then the following $100, $150,$200. When does the payment out weigh the beenfit? I guess what i am sayign is, if you have to be a member to compete, what is too stoping them from raising their rates all the time.

3rd - when you are trying to grow something, you do not do this by becoming exclusive. Maybe I am first time cook and told that I will pay more then others, I might decide who needs that and never cook.

4th - and last, what is stop organizers from making you join their clubs. Lets say, Shriners say I have to pay an extra $50 to become a temporary Shriner to cook at the Columbia event, or a Rotary membership to cook at Marshall (too bad they are done). So now my $150 entry fee would go up to $225 becuase I was not "in the right club."

I think there are bigger issues that they shoudl concentrate on then how to get an extra $25.

lunchlady
01-05-2008, 10:10 AM
I think there are bigger issues that they shoudl concentrate on then how to get an extra $25.

IT'S NOT GOING TO THEM!!!!

FIND OUT what your KCBS benefits are, instead of just saying that there aren't any. There are.

FIND OUT what the rules are, instead of freaking out about what you percieve them to be.

ok... I'm done. I can't wait for the Organizer's meeting....