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View Full Version : Ban KCBS garnish?


Sledneck
12-07-2007, 06:50 AM
If you do not like the garnish (even though it's optional and few have the cajones to submit without myself included) voice your opinion here http://www.tossthelettuce.com/

MilitantSquatter
12-07-2007, 07:01 AM
Sled... Thanks for making me put my name on a petition from 2005 !!

Are you planning to revive this issue and present it at the KCBS annual rules meeting next month ? Is it part of your BOD nominee platform ?

Bbq Bubba
12-07-2007, 07:14 AM
83 signature's in 2 yr's...............good luck!:cool:

Sledneck
12-07-2007, 07:18 AM
Here is a site in favor http://keepthelettuce.com/

Sledneck
12-07-2007, 07:30 AM
Can the organizer of a sanctioned KCBS event stipulate a no garnish rule?

Transformer BBQ
12-07-2007, 07:51 AM
Can the organizer of a sanctioned KCBS event stipulate a no garnish rule?


I don't think so...

I wonder how many people who are signed up there feel so strongly about it that they personally don't put garnish in the box...

YankeeBBQ
12-07-2007, 07:57 AM
I don't think so...

I wonder how many people who are signed up there feel so strongly about it that they personally don't put garnish in the box...

Why would we do that ? As long as it's 'optional' I think your putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't use it. I don't throw my vote away on third party candidates either.

Transformer BBQ
12-07-2007, 08:05 AM
Why would we do that ? As long as it's 'optional' I think your putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't use it. I don't throw my vote away on third party candidates either.


What's the reason you would be against garnish?

PigBoy
12-07-2007, 08:10 AM
If it's a KCBS sanctioned contest, the organizer can not change the rules on the 4 main categories. Auxiliary categories are at the descretion of the organizer. I personally like the garnish if nothing more but to keep the meat in place. I just hope that the judges look at the appearence of the meat more than the greens. The garnish can distract from the meat though.

rookiedad
12-07-2007, 08:11 AM
i say keep the lettuce! in our first competition, my Mother got the title "Chief ln Charge of Lettuce"(we're gonna make her a t-shirt this season). it was nice having her being such an important part of our team as she was instrumental in introducing me to Barbeque in the first place when i was a kid (long story that i will post up soon). she also got alot of satisfaction making sure all the boxes looked perfect as they went out and had a great time doing it so it was nice to have something for her to do, so again i say... KEEP THE LETTUCE!

phil

YankeeBBQ
12-07-2007, 08:22 AM
What's the reason you would be against garnish?

Because I'm sick of driving to 3 different supermarkets to find some decent lettuce and Parsley and some of the comments I've heard from judges about garnish are scary.

Transformer BBQ
12-07-2007, 08:47 AM
Because I'm sick of driving to 3 different supermarkets to find some decent lettuce and Parsley and some of the comments I've heard from judges about garnish are scary.

Yeah, I can understand that. I certainly have made myself crazy at some contests when I open up the cooler and it looks like dead leaves... and I end up having to send someone out to get stuff 2 hours before turn in.

DawgPhan
12-07-2007, 08:48 AM
I like the garnish...or better put, the garnish doesnt bother me. After doing contests without garnish I really think that it is easier to put together a good looking box with garnish than without.

Bigmista
12-07-2007, 08:56 AM
Personally, I'm against it because I've heard too many judges say, "I gave them a 6 in appearance because the lettuce was not full enough/covered the meat/had sauce on it/pick any other reason. If the contest is about the meat, why are they judging the garnish?

Yakfishingfool
12-07-2007, 09:29 AM
I was initially against keeping the garnish, if the contest is about the meat, then just present the meat. But now that I've done a few and learned a bit about doing garnish I think it enhances the presentation to the point that I'd rather have it there. I think there has to be some serious education of the judges to be sure they are not judging the garnish and that it shouldn't have a significant impact on the presentation....even though it does. I'm still learning how to do it well, but find it very satisfying and can't see not doing it. It is an option, if there is downscoring because of it, I see it as a judges issue not a competitors issue. Scott

River City Smokehouse
12-07-2007, 09:33 AM
Someone made a comment in a coversation yesterday about the garnish and it really makes a lot of sense. It's ashame that something that is not even to be judged can be what disqualifies you.

I personally think KCBS should have some "KCBS" offical turn-in boxes that has the inside printed with a picture of the garnish already on it. Hmmm.. everybody has the same garnish. I mean....it is a meat contest, not a meat/garnish contest, or so I was told in my judging class by Ed Roith.

Sledneck
12-07-2007, 09:35 AM
I was initially against keeping the garnish, if the contest is about the meat, then just present the meat. But now that I've done a few and learned a bit about doing garnish I think it enhances the presentation to the point that I'd rather have it there. I think there has to be some serious education of the judges to be sure they are not judging the garnish and that it shouldn't have a significant impact on the presentation....even though it does. I'm still learning how to do it well, but find it very satisfying and can't see not doing it. It is an option, if there is downscoring because of it, I see it as a judges issue not a competitors issue. Scott
It is OUR issue. Unfortunately judges DO judge garnish. My cooking has not changer over the past 3 years but my garnish skills and attention to the detail of them has greatly approved and so have my scores.

Sledneck
12-07-2007, 09:36 AM
I personally think KCBS should have some "KCBS" offical turn-in boxes that has the inside printed with a picture of the garnish already on it. Hmmm.. everybody has the same garnish. I mean....it is a meat contest, not a meat/garnish contest, or so I was told in my judging class by Ed Roith.That is a FANTASTIC idea, I love it!!!!

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
12-07-2007, 09:45 AM
I really suck at garnishing, so be off with it and go NAKED (not that I will because a judge will kill all your scores if you do!!)

KC_Bobby
12-07-2007, 09:47 AM
Garnish, it's a love-hate thing.

Yes, the turn in's look better. But if everyone's doing it, the good garnish presentations generally help the appearance of the people that take the time to make it look nice and have a great looking product. Even great ganish can not hide less then a great meat product. Of course, this is assuming the judge knows the difference.

I hate making beds of parsley, but I do love the way the turn ins look on it.

River City Smokehouse
12-07-2007, 09:57 AM
How about getting rid of the garnish and KCBS can have a designer foil doily? You can buy them in different colors, shapes, and sizes. These are use by pastry chef's all the time. They would be given to the cook already placed in the container when they give the boxes to you.
http://www.brooklace.com/images/foildoilies.jpg

Sledneck
12-07-2007, 10:00 AM
How about getting rid of the garnish and KCBS can have a designer foil doily? You can buy them in different colors, shapes, and sizes. These are use by pastry chef's all the time. They would be given to the cook already placed in the container when they give the boxes to you.

http://www.brooklace.com/images/foildoilies.jpg

Your first idea great, your 2nd idea.....GAY!!!

DawgPhan
12-07-2007, 10:06 AM
Personally, I'm against it because I've heard too many judges say, "I gave them a 6 in appearance because the lettuce was not full enough/covered the meat/had sauce on it/pick any other reason. If the contest is about the meat, why are they judging the garnish?


Sounds like what you are really against are judges who either refuse to follow the rules or they dont know them. Either way that isnt a issue for the garnish, but an issue for the judging...this isnt a "well everyone has an opinion" type thing this is a rule that is pretty clear and easy to understand.

River City Smokehouse
12-07-2007, 10:07 AM
Your first idea great, your 2nd idea.....GAY!!!
Well...I agree.:biggrin: But if it works....:rolleyes:

SmokeInDaEye
12-07-2007, 10:27 AM
You can buy them in different colors, shapes, and sizes.


You don't knit your own????

I'm up in the air on the whole thing, though it sure would free up A LOT of cooler space if we didn't have to deal with garnish.

Swinebuck
12-07-2007, 10:35 AM
I think if it is a BBQ contest it should just be about the meat. No garnish. I also think Memphis In May needs to eliminate the smoker garnish.
Thanks
Mike
Swinebuck

Jorge
12-07-2007, 10:41 AM
Several sides to any issue. If you go without garnish long enough there WILL come a day when you will wish you had it to help with one problem or another with your meat. Ask the folks that cook FBA or IBCA events.

DawgPhan
12-07-2007, 11:04 AM
I think if it is a BBQ contest it should just be about the meat. No garnish. I also think Memphis In May needs to eliminate the smoker garnish.
Thanks
Mike
Swinebuck


No offense but who ever started this whole "BBQ contests are meat contests" should be drug out into the street and smoked. It aint a meat contest. It is a BBQ Contest, it says so right there in the name. If you want to have meat contests have at it, but BBQ aint just meat to me and it aint to the judges either. Tell you what...all you meat contests people can just turn in meat and I will turn in BBQ and we will see who does better...

It aint a meat contest.

KC_Bobby
12-07-2007, 11:56 AM
KCBS judges are instructed to judge the appearence of the meat, not the garnish - assuming it's a legal garnish. At least that's what I took out of the judging class.

Jorge
12-07-2007, 12:07 PM
KCBS judges are instructed to judge the appearence of the meat, not the garnish - assuming it's a legal garnish. At least that's what I took out of the judging class.


You ever speed on the highway?:wink:

SmokeInDaEye
12-07-2007, 12:12 PM
I think if it is a BBQ contest it should just be about the meat. No garnish. I also think Memphis In May needs to eliminate the smoker garnish.
Thanks
Mike
Swinebuck

Try garnishing a WSM. That's a challenge.

butts a fire
12-07-2007, 12:14 PM
I say keep the garnish but open it up to more types of lettuce or greens that way a cooks creativity can show more and if you are getting scored on it (I know you aren't supposed to but you still do) you should be able to pick what you want that will enhance the appearance of you food. Then the judges would be free to judge the appearance as a whole.

KC_Bobby
12-07-2007, 12:19 PM
In theory the problem with that is it opens it up too much and therefore opens the window for identifying your turn in to judges. In practice, their are otherways to already to that. Look over the BBQ forums and individual sites and people show their turn in pictures. Often, the teams turn in boxes look very similar.

I judged once and I was pretty sure who one team's turn in was as soon as the box was opened just based on pictures I had seen before. Saw the pic online later that week and I was right.

Roo-B-Q'N
12-07-2007, 12:28 PM
Garnish Doesn't bother me at all. It helps keep the meat in place and regardless of what people say, they judge appearance of the garnish along with the meat. It is just human nature.
I have judged several boxes with no garnish and they have honestly looked extremely good. Not garnishing and making the box look good is as artful as garnishing and making the box look good. Just need to practice.

Now if they would just allow toothpicks and foil, I would have something to pick my teeth with and wrap my leftovers in . . ..:twisted::shock::evil:

Tinybud
12-07-2007, 12:56 PM
I personnely don't like garnish, and it was long before I ever did a contest, I never liked when going out to eat some place, and the food comes out with some type of garnish on the plate, alittle piece or parsley isn't bad, but some places place your entree on a large piece of lettuce, and i hate that. AS for the the contest, I do garnish my boxes, but only because I'm afraid my appreance scores would suffer if I didn't. I have decided at at least one contest in 08, I'm gonna go with no garnish, just to see how it goes. put thats just my opinion.

Mitchelina
12-07-2007, 01:10 PM
Keep the lettuce. I'm not the greatest garnsih-er in the world but I don't like the look of our food slipping around inside the box, puddling grease, etc.

Sledneck
12-07-2007, 01:10 PM
Several sides to any issue. If you go without garnish long enough there WILL come a day when you will wish you had it to help with one problem or another with your meat. Ask the folks that cook FBA or IBCA events.
I do not know IBCA but i do know a few FBA cooks and have been to a few contests down there and from what i gather from FBA cooks they HATE garnish and love the 1 hour between turn in's

Bigmista
12-07-2007, 01:18 PM
That is the reason I like doing IBCA contests as a change of pace. No garnish at all. Everything in the box is predetermined. 1/2 chicken, 7 spare ribs, 7 slices of brisket, 1 piece of foil. Everything lined up the same way. Everybody turns in the same thing so only the meat is judged.

watg?
12-07-2007, 01:21 PM
No offense but who ever started this whole "BBQ contests are meat contests" should be drug out into the street and smoked. It aint a meat contest. It is a BBQ Contest, it says so right there in the name. If you want to have meat contests have at it, but BBQ aint just meat to me and it aint to the judges either. Tell you what...all you meat contests people can just turn in meat and I will turn in BBQ and we will see who does better...

It aint a meat contest.


I agree here. It seems I have heard the same argument about sauce. “It aint a sauce contest” some have said. While I agree that sometimes it seems garnish is a pain in the parsley, it, like sauce, is an optional addition, (or subtraction), to or from your box. The idea is to make the best product and make it look the best in the box that you can, as long as its within the rules. Garnish is not a requirement, so if you do not like it, leave it out and work on making your turn in stuff look good without it, the same with sauce, just be careful that your sauce, if you use it, is not “pooled or puddled” without the garnish!

Sledneck
12-07-2007, 01:24 PM
No offense but who ever started this whole "BBQ contests are meat contests" should be drug out into the street and smoked. It aint a meat contest. It is a BBQ Contest, it says so right there in the name. If you want to have meat contests have at it, but BBQ aint just meat to me and it aint to the judges either. Tell you what...all you meat contests people can just turn in meat and I will turn in BBQ and we will see who does better...

It aint a meat contest.
Im sorry but you do not make any sense.I dont remember BBQ'ing anything else but meat at a KCBS event. Vegeatables, fruit, hmmm nope it was all meat!

homebbq
12-07-2007, 01:33 PM
No offense but who ever started this whole "BBQ contests are meat contests" should be drug out into the street and smoked. It aint a meat contest. It is a BBQ Contest, it says so right there in the name. If you want to have meat contests have at it, but BBQ aint just meat to me and it aint to the judges either. Tell you what...all you meat contests people can just turn in meat and I will turn in BBQ and we will see who does better...

It aint a meat contest.

hmmm..... Brad, whats up with this? :icon_smil
Barbecue is a method for cooking meat.... I guess those of us who cook FBA contests should be drug out in the street and smoked... At the beginning of our cook team meetings, the rep specifies, "this is a meat contest"....

Now, I do cook quite a few contests a year... Definately more FBA (17 - 20), than KCBS (5-15), and the vast majority of KCBS contests I do, I have to travel too (several hundred miles)...

I would say most who have to worry about garnish when traveling to KCBS contests, understand what a problem garnish can be.... You plot out the Walmart Super Centers along the way, and then pray you only have to stop at one... But that never happens, we usually stop at 2 and sometimes 3, to get stuff Clara is happy with... (I wish she would just decide to get a case of parsley!) :wink:

Then you have to have a cooler dedicated to it, and depending on when you arrive at the contest, you then need to give it adequate attention to make sure it survives.... This is all long before it ever goes into a turn-in box....

And those that may believe you need garnish to be creative with a turn-in box, should come down and judge an FBA contest sometime. You would be amazed at the creativity that goes into some of these turn-in boxes....

But, there is no question in my mind, you put yourself at a disadvantage in a KCBS contest if you choose to not use garnish. Even though it is said to be optional....

River City Smokehouse
12-07-2007, 01:44 PM
I'm going to post a few terms or words used by the KCBS that will help define what we are to be judging/turning in. I have not seen ...so far anyways.... anything anywhere that includes garnish as something that is to be judged. However..saying that.. IT will get you DQ'd or kill your scores quick as anything else will. Makes no sense to me that it is even being allowed. It's a headache, but the deal is you better use it if everyone else is too.

Quote from the KCBS "Judges Oath":
I do solemnly swear to objectively and subjectively evaluate each Barbeque meat that is presented to my eyes, my nose, my hands and my palate. I accept my duty to be an Official KCBS Certified Judge, so that truth, justice, excellence in Barbeque and the American Way of Life may be strengthened and preserved forever.

I didn't ever see whare it said I would evaluate GARNISH.

Sledneck
12-07-2007, 01:49 PM
It would be nice if the rules were changed giving the organizer the right to take a vote per each contest on you entry form. Constest with 30 teams , 20 check off no garnish then it is a no garnish contest. THAT is "optional" to me

River City Smokehouse
12-07-2007, 01:52 PM
It would be nice if the rules were changed giving the organizer the right to take a vote per each contest on you entry form. Constest with 30 teams , 20 check off no garnish then it is a no garnish contest. THAT is "optional" to me
Then everyone would do it anyways because they know it will enhance the scores.....even though it does not get judged or should sway a score to be better or worse.

Sledneck
12-07-2007, 01:54 PM
Then everyone would do it anyways because they know it will enhance the scores.....even though it does not get judged or should sway a score to be better or worse.
You are right. I guess i need to relocate to California or Florida

ique
12-07-2007, 01:55 PM
hmmm..... Brad, whats up with this? :icon_smil
Barbecue is a method for cooking meat....

I see DawgPhans point. We have had judges up here in New England be told 'its a meat contest' and then judge down on appearance when a cook uses sauce because ~'I can't see the meat'. To be more accurate it is a BBQ contest, not a meat contest. BBQ can also be about smoke and marinades and rubs and sauces, not just the meat. Of course a nice balance of all these things so that the chicken or pork shines is the best.

On appearance in particular, the judges should really only evaluate the meat? How about the bbq sauce fingerprints, or rotted parsley? That should just be ignored? A big part of the appearance score should be how appetizing the bbq is, but also how neatly and well prepared the entire presentation is.

Eliminating garnish guys doesn't get you off the hook for putting together a good looking box, in fact its probably harder without parsley. When you add up all the time and money spent on gear, rigs, and roadtrips stopping at the market for some garnish seems insignificant to me.

Sledneck
12-07-2007, 01:58 PM
Eliminating garnish guys doesn't get you off the hook for putting together a good looking box, in fact its probably harder without parsley.I agree with that but then it brings a new dimension to game

River City Smokehouse
12-07-2007, 02:05 PM
Maybe 'Appearance' should be judged after it is on the judges judging place matt. This way we judge IT for what IT is.

homebbq
12-07-2007, 02:35 PM
I see DawgPhans point. We have had judges up here in New England be told 'its a meat contest' and then judge down on appearance when a cook uses sauce because ~'I can't see the meat'. To be more accurate it is a BBQ contest, not a meat contest. BBQ can also be about smoke and marinades and rubs and sauces, not just the meat. Of course a nice balance of all these things so that the chicken or pork shines is the best.

On appearance in particular, the judges should really only evaluate the meat? How about the bbq sauce fingerprints, or rotted parsley? That should just be ignored? A big part of the appearance score should be how appetizing the bbq is, but also how neatly and well prepared the entire presentation is.

Eliminating garnish guys doesn't get you off the hook for putting together a good looking box, in fact its probably harder without parsley. When you add up all the time and money spent on gear, rigs, and roadtrips stopping at the market for some garnish seems insignificant to me.

Hey Chris!

All you mentioned is all used in the process of cooking, and finishing the meat (rubs, sauce, marinades, woods, etc..) ... We all NOW know this as barbecue.... If a judge scores down because there is sauce on it, then they just aren't gettin it are they!

We got rid of the word "Appearance" down here and changed it to "Presentation"... Which takes everything in consideration, smudges in sauce and all.... As I said before, for those that don't think a box can be creatively done without garnish, really needs to come down and judge a contest.... Often, just like in KCBS contests that presentation can be the difference.... Personally, I definately prefer doing the boxes without it (garnish)....

The_Kapn
12-07-2007, 02:36 PM
I have not changed my thoughts or postiion since the last several times this was "discussed" here.

TIM

ique
12-07-2007, 02:51 PM
Hey Kevin,

I like this change from appearance to presentation. We are working on some rules for NEBS sanctioned grilling contests and I am going to suggest it....

Hey Chris!
We got rid of the word "Appearance" down here and changed it to "Presentation"... Which takes everything in consideration, smudges in sauce and all....

DawgPhan
12-07-2007, 02:52 PM
I agree here. It seems I have heard the same argument about sauce. “It aint a sauce contest” some have said. While I agree that sometimes it seems garnish is a pain in the parsley, it, like sauce, is an optional addition, (or subtraction), to or from your box. The idea is to make the best product and make it look the best in the box that you can, as long as its within the rules. Garnish is not a requirement, so if you do not like it, leave it out and work on making your turn in stuff look good without it, the same with sauce, just be careful that your sauce, if you use it, is not “pooled or puddled” without the garnish!



Exactly...this "It's a meat contest" thing is one of the first things that new comp guys have to get over. I know I did. I was told the right things to do by a very nice member of this site, but I kept hearing that it was a meat contest and how the meat should be the centerpiece and it's a meat contest afterall. It took me a while to get it that it was a BBQ Contest and to most folks on the street BBQ is going to be that blend of smoke, rubs and sauces that make that meat so dog gone good...

To be quite honest I like garnish because it makes it easier to put together a box. Doing contests without garnish to me is far more difficult than doing it with. With no garnish you have no where to hide anything and sometimes I might want to hide something. It just forces me to be more careful with everything for raw meat selection to putting it in the box.

ique
12-07-2007, 03:02 PM
I have not changed my thoughts or postiion since the last several times this was "discussed" here.

TIM

Well you are just stubborn. :wink:

DawgPhan
12-07-2007, 03:05 PM
After reading the rest of the replies it seems like most folks are on the same page. They are going to do whatever they can do within the rules to increase their scores. If that means garnish then garnish it up...if it is sauce, then sauce it up...

I guess also that I should remember that this is really a board full of seasoned vets so It's a meat contest is going to mean something a little different than it does it me or some of the other not so seasoned guys...I just know that for me personally really stepping up my flavors to a competition level was difiicult because I was trying to win a meat contest. Several times I was told my flavors were mild and my response was always "I'm tryign to let the flavor of the meat come through"...I have started getting a little more bold with my flavors and my scores have improved.

I guess I need to start focusing on my no garnish box since the only contests I plan on attending next year are the 3 GA FBA triple crown evens and Dillard, but just in case I am still going to be bringing my garnish to Dillard.

Bigmista
12-07-2007, 03:13 PM
Saying "it's a meat contest" doesn't mean that seasoning and sauce don't come into play. That is part of cooking BBQ.

However, parsley and lettuce never make it into my smoker. They do nothing for the flavor of the meat. They have nothing to do with the preparation of the meat. They are props used to present the meat.

Judging them is kind of like marking down a score for a beauty queen because you don't like the stage she is standing on.

paydabill
12-07-2007, 03:48 PM
To be honest it does nto matter to me. The garnish gives you something to do while you wait. However, it would be nice ot know that i did not get a low appearance score becuase my lettuce shifted.

big brother smoke
12-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Good Ole IBCA! I just don't understand what rabbit food has to do with BBQ. I think some of you are BI.....:biggrin:

Or closet vegetarians:biggrin:

Jorge
12-07-2007, 04:33 PM
I do not know IBCA but i do know a few FBA cooks and have been to a few contests down there and from what i gather from FBA cooks they HATE garnish and love the 1 hour between turn in's

Everybody will have a day, at some point, when they will wish they had the option to use garnish when something doesn't slice right:grin: 1 hour between turnins is a whole other issue, and that's another thing these to groups have in common.

White Dog BBQ
12-07-2007, 06:52 PM
I think garnish should stay. A big part of enjoying food is tasting with your eyes; I think garnishing gives you an opportunity to enhance the appearance of your entry. Yeah, it's a pain in the rump, but I do think it is appropriate.

Dale P
12-07-2007, 07:19 PM
I voted to keep.

Yakfishingfool
12-07-2007, 08:37 PM
As mentioned earlier aobut the printed boxes...what aobut a green box. we know that the green color enhances th eappearance of the food. why not get away from the white and go to the green? Scott

chromesporty
12-07-2007, 09:21 PM
Good Lord! I'm havin' a tuff time trying to decipher the IBCA contests here in Texas with no garnish and no sauce allowed! I'd hate to have to figure out how much sauce is too much and how to stack the meat on top of the greens.

After the first year I have figured out that the top teams in brisket are saucing the meat, it's just really thin and can't puddle in the turn in tray. I have seen guys tilting the trays at turn in and using paper towels to sop up the excess sauce.

On second thought, maybe the greens would help hide the sauce! OK, ya'll talked me into it.

River City Smokehouse
12-08-2007, 08:29 AM
As mentioned earlier aobut the printed boxes...what aobut a green box. we know that the green color enhances th eappearance of the food. why not get away from the white and go to the green? Scott
Then it comes down to the statement that was made,"the lettuce helps keep the meat in place". I say....WHaaaaa! I haven't seen a restaurant yet have to use garnish to hold any food in place.

Heck...what's wrong with a piece of white bread? I go with the garnish only because everyone else is too, but that's just being smart. I just would like to see KCBS allow the contest organizer to decide if garnish will be used and if so it must be in accordance to KCBS rules. If no garnish is to be used at that particular contest then everyone uses no garnish. I think there will some of both and that's fine.

HoDeDo
12-08-2007, 04:40 PM
Can the organizer of a sanctioned KCBS event stipulate a no garnish rule?

I think if they did, it would likely move it out of the "Masters" events into the "Competitor" series event. Kinda like cooking on gas - LP Que is a KCBS event, just in the new series.

CTSmokehouse
12-09-2007, 12:24 AM
[QUOTE=River City Smokehouse;510155]Then it comes down to the statement that was made,"the lettuce helps keep the meat in place". I say....WHaaaaa! I haven't seen a restaurant yet have to use garnish to hold any food in place.

I had dinner tonight in a very prestigious restaurant in SoHo, NYC... the Trout was served on top of the garnish... it is a very common plating in French restaurants... was at another restaurant on Tuesday... yes French and in my hometown... the Salmon was served atop the garnish... it ain't Q but it is a common practice...

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

Can't wait to get back to cookin' Q and staying out of those French restaurants! ; ) !

ThomEmery
12-10-2007, 07:54 AM
Maybe Ban Threads about Banning Garnish :)

Single Fin Smoker
12-11-2007, 02:03 AM
".....I had the garnish too...."

swamprb
12-11-2007, 03:32 AM
I judged a couple comps where a few turn in boxes were full of cut Parsley, no lettuce at all, they looked very full and the meats were nicely framed, but were so sauced that when it came time to pick a piece and lay it on the placemat they were covered with it! The thighs and ribs that I had were very good and scored high but the talk around the table afterwards was kind of negative.

Sledneck
12-11-2007, 07:07 AM
I judged a couple comps where a few turn in boxes were full of cut Parsley, no lettuce at all, they looked very full and the meats were nicely framed, but were so sauced that when it came time to pick a piece and lay it on the placemat they were covered with it! The thighs and ribs that I had were very good and scored high but the talk around the table afterwards was kind of negative.
Negative because of the parsley sticking to the meat when lifted out of the box?

ThomEmery
12-11-2007, 08:07 AM
Negative because of the parsley sticking to the meat when lifted out of the box?

I have seen this also

swamprb
12-11-2007, 10:25 AM
Negative because of the parsley sticking to the meat when lifted out of the box?

I have seen this also

Exactly! We discussed it afterwards with the Table Captains and Reps and were reminded to just judge the meat.

Yakfishingfool
12-11-2007, 10:49 AM
Boy, a piece of parsley sticking to a rib and being eaten that way typically wouldn't help the meat I'd bet. Scott

ModelMaker
12-11-2007, 10:58 AM
It happens all the time. No big deal you just pull it off when you prepare to judge that sample.
No plusses, no minuses, just take it off and judge it.....
ModelMaker

Sledneck
12-11-2007, 11:03 AM
i guess we need to spray the parsley with teflon

swamprb
12-11-2007, 06:18 PM
It happens all the time. No big deal you just pull it off when you prepare to judge that sample.
No plusses, no minuses, just take it off and judge it.....
ModelMaker

I realize this, I'm not talking about just a sprig of Parsley, but neatly almost obsessively trimmed leafs! We didn't just pick them off, they got wiped off with a napkin! After the judging, I was talking to a cook I knew and he asked me about the boxes I sampled and I mentioned it-he told me he had turned in his boxes with Parsley after seeing another guy using it that weekend and said it was a hassle and time consuming and after my comment would not do it again.
It turned out the "other guy" took RGC that day.

smoke-n-my-i's
12-11-2007, 07:52 PM
I say get rid of it.

Are we judging Q or are we judging fancy looking turnin boxes? Since it is BBQ judging, judge BBQ, not greenery.

And besides, although it doesn't cost that much extra, it is a hassle sometimes trying to get good looking stuff just to make your boxes look good just to throw it away. Why waste more food????? Just my $0.02 worth.

River City Smokehouse
12-13-2007, 07:32 AM
I say get rid of it.

Are we judging Q or are we judging fancy looking turnin boxes? Since it is BBQ judging, judge BBQ, not greenery.

And besides, although it doesn't cost that much extra, it is a hassle sometimes trying to get good looking stuff just to make your boxes look good just to throw it away. Why waste more food????? Just my $0.02 worth.
You know, if you you really want to make a valid point, there it is. Also, styrofoam is not a very well liked product by the tree hugging kind these days either. Some day we'll be turning our food in using those new corn starch plastic deli containers. Those things are the $hit. I would have never thought anyone could make palstic out of corn.

TOPS BBQ
12-13-2007, 09:50 AM
I'm all for garnish. Hassle? Yes, sometimes, but it doesn't bother me all that much.

As for those tree huggers not liking us using styrofoam...Do you really think they like us burning charcoal/wood?

Anyhow, I just did my first IBCA contest last month. That was a little different, not using garnish. What was more bothersome was worrying about the sauce applied to the meat or pulled pork & brisket not the right thickness...etc. I guess you just have to get used to it and learn how do it. Kind of like garnish.8)

Sledneck
12-13-2007, 11:01 AM
As for those tree huggers not liking us using styrofoam...Do you really think they like us burning charcoal/wood?


Probably not. Similar to the LP gas contest that happened this year maybe an alternative recycled fuel such as pellet's can be made into a contest with green rules and guidelines implemented to show that we do care

StLouQue
12-17-2007, 09:41 PM
I did not read the previous five pages of posts. Sorry. In fact, I've blissfully ignored this thread altogether, until now. I'm not a competitor, so honestly, I couldn't possibly care less. I just became a judge, however, and these two posts moved me to choose. Lose the garnish.

...judge BBQ, not greenery.

Why waste more food?????

...styrofoam is not a very well liked product by the tree hugging kind these days either. Some day we'll be turning our food in using those new corn starch plastic deli containers. Those things are the $hit. I would have never thought anyone could make palstic out of corn.

Tree hugger? Hell, I'm a tree humper! These are ideas I can get behind.

sampson
12-18-2007, 12:42 AM
I say boot it... It seems to me that too much of the appearance part of the score hinges on the garnish and not the meat. In fact I've heard judges say they had marked down a box because the garnish was not evenly spaced around the box... I also think that it does allow some folks to get away with pooling their sauce a little more than maybe they should.

Mo-Dave
12-18-2007, 03:32 AM
I would like to see it go but if you have never done it try making a good looking box then walk it around your house a couple times and see what it looks like. Its a lot harder to make a good looking box without it.
Dave

Dale P
12-18-2007, 07:16 AM
Why not just throw the Q in a plastic walmart bag?
Keep the garnish. If its optional, whats the problem?

Jeff_in_KC
12-18-2007, 06:03 PM
Why keep garnish? Because there's a presentation score. And if you've ever eaten in a restaurant where they just toss the food on the plate, there's a preconceived notion that this food isn't going to taste as good. Case in point - Saturday night, we ate at Hereford house in Independence for my wife's company Christmas party. i ordered beef tenderloin and chicken. They set the plate down in front of me: plain white plate... a hunk of tenderloin, a big luke warm baked potato and an anemic looking chicken breast (not a grill mark one on it) thrown on in the middle. All over the plate and food, they'd sprinkled a bit of dried parley flakes. Honestly, it looked like chit and I fully expected the food to be marginal as well. In looking back, I guess the food wasn't bad (wasn't hot either) but at the time, I was thoroughly unimpressed with the presentation and I told the server my opinion. No color, no nothing. Had they taken the time to make it look better and added some color, in my mind, I would have expected it to taste better too.

I always go back to the Mona Lisa. In a cheap Wal Mart frame, even the Mona Lisa is gonna look like crap... but add an expensive, extravegant frame and it makes the painting look better. You aren't judging the frame but the frame helps the painting. Same goes for garnish... you aren't judging the garnish but the garnish (by definition) helps make the meat look better. And I don't know about all of you who are anti-garnish but if I'm going to the trouble to lovingly prepare the best meat I possibly can in competition, I think I owe it to myself and my team to make it appear as good as I possibly can. IMO, meat looks like chit in a tray without garnish.

tonto1117
12-18-2007, 06:55 PM
Why keep garnish? Because there's a presentation score. And if you've ever eaten in a restaurant where they just toss the food on the plate, there's a preconceived notion that this food isn't going to taste as good. Case in point - Saturday night, we ate at Hereford house in Independence for my wife's company Christmas party. i ordered beef tenderloin and chicken. They set the plate down in front of me: plain white plate... a hunk of tenderloin, a big luke warm baked potato and an anemic looking chicken breast (not a grill mark one on it) thrown on in the middle. All over the plate and food, they'd sprinkled a bit of dried parley flakes. Honestly, it looked like chit and I fully expected the food to be marginal as well. In looking back, I guess the food wasn't bad (wasn't hot either) but at the time, I was thoroughly unimpressed with the presentation and I told the server my opinion. No color, no nothing. Had they taken the time to make it look better and added some color, in my mind, I would have expected it to taste better too.

I always go back to the Mona Lisa. In a cheap Wal Mart frame, even the Mona Lisa is gonna look like crap... but add an expensive, extravegant frame and it makes the painting look better. You aren't judging the frame but the frame helps the painting. Same goes for garnish... you aren't judging the garnish but the garnish (by definition) helps make the meat look better. And I don't know about all of you who are anti-garnish but if I'm going to the trouble to lovingly prepare the best meat I possibly can in competition, I think I owe it to myself and my team to make it appear as good as I possibly can. IMO, meat looks like chit in a tray without garnish.


I agree and some great points. I'm the garnisher for the most part for our team and would love not to have to spend lot's of tedious time doing it..... but let's face it, most folks eat with their eyes first.

Jeff_in_KC
12-18-2007, 07:16 PM
Not exactly the Mona Lisa to start with, but I don't think the frame did much...

Brings up another analogy... if you have chitty looking Q to start with, even a professional garnisher couldn't help you.

Muzzlebrake
12-18-2007, 08:25 PM
chaulk and paint make it what it aint

leanza
12-18-2007, 09:49 PM
Garnish.. Well..Farmer John invented it anyway's (Farmer John makes Dodger Dogs). If you leave it up to the Cali's, then it appears it may be that you go with what matters, the cook. Tradition is a great influence and the forces of change should be in check... But some changes are for the better.

Dale P
12-19-2007, 12:16 PM
I am fine with what ever the rules state. If they get rid of garnish, that would be fine with me. I finally got pretty good at it though.

Stoke&Smoke
12-19-2007, 06:01 PM
Can a newbie weigh in?

I became a KCBS judge last year, and did half a dozen contests. I plan to compete in at least 2 or 3 contests this year.

IMHO, I think garnish should be looked at like a picture frame. You wouldn't put a Picasso in a cheap frame. But you wouldn't spend too much on a frame for your college degree.

The garnish should complement the meat, not be the main show.

But BBQ, like any food, is tasted first with our eyes, and then with our palate.

I always look for a box to make me say "Man I want to taste THAT!!!"

But, on the other hand, as judges, we also have to keep in mind that sometimes boxes are mis-handled by turn in folks and such, so in my mind, the main thing to look at is how the meat looks.

The biggest thing I notice in the tent is people comparing the looks of one entry with another, and scoring by comparison, a definite NO_NO

Dan

Mo-Dave
12-20-2007, 10:48 AM
Just an after thought. If KCBS allows garnish then why not anything we want to use, why limit it to a few choices. Maybe that would be a better fight to fight.
Dave

tonto1117
12-20-2007, 11:14 AM
Just an after thought. If KCBS allows garnish then why not anything we want to use, why limit it to a few choices. Maybe that would be a better fight to fight.
Dave

I can see it now....Box with six ribs and 6 shots of JD.... To cleanse the palate...:roll::biggrin:

Mo-Dave
12-20-2007, 11:26 AM
I can see it now....Box with six ribs and 6 shots of JD.... To cleanse the palate...:roll::biggrin:

Thats what I am talkin bout. I can see judges stumbling out of the tent and reps asking for car keys.:wink:
Dave

blues_n_cues
12-21-2007, 06:42 AM
jmho.- if the garnish is a thing(and is) than inadvertantly gets judged too and the green makes the Q more pleasingto the eye... might as well add a lemon wedge to really enhance the color of the meat.

JD McGee
12-21-2007, 06:44 AM
I'm not crazy about the garnish thing...the focus should be on the food...not the flowers. Who gives a rat's patutie what it looks like...your eyeballs don't have taste buds. :lol::lol::lol: Yeah yeah I've heard all about how you "eat with your eyes"...and that's all fine and dandy if you're running a restaurant or catering business where presentation is all part of the dining experience. This is "BBQ"...it's all about the flavor! IMHO of course. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: