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watg?
10-26-2007, 01:19 PM
This may have already been asked and answered, if so I apologize. In a KCBS contest is it legal to use a microwave oven to heat the items in the box before turn in? Not to cook with, just to add some heat before heading to the judges. If it is illegal, does anyone have any tips or suggestions to get a warm product to the scoring table other than an insulated carrying bag?

Divemaster
10-26-2007, 01:35 PM
My gut feel is that it is NOT legal….:twisted: If I recall the only ‘fuel’ that is allowed is wood and charcoal…. Now if you have a microwave that runs on charcoal….:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

BBQchef33
10-26-2007, 01:47 PM
it is absolutly illegal to use anything to warm the food except a wood fired pit. You may hold in a cooler or kambro to keep it hot until prep time, but nothing using propane or electricity and that includes microwaves or gas fired ovens.

For me, during a contest, ribs, pork and brisket are usually coming out of a cooler after resting for a bit and are still to hot to handle, and chicken is coming right off the pit.

If needed, you may return it to your pit to set glazes and warm stuff up a bit before going into the boxes, but thats it.. NO ELECTRIC OR GAS.

honestly, if you use a cooler or kambro to hold the meats, there is NO reason to heat it up. They are very hot when the time comes. Also, keep in mind, the hotter the product when it goes into the box, the more they will wilt the greens. When u close the box, it becomes a little steamroom.

acorette
10-26-2007, 01:50 PM
No way, Jose. Wouldn't want to wilt the garnish anyway. Food temp isn't a consideration in KCBS judging. Doesn't need to be hot. Appearance, Taste, Tenderness. Temp shouldn't come into play.

My $0.02.
Aaron

Transformer BBQ
10-26-2007, 02:32 PM
Very illegal... so illegal that you'd get banned for 2 years from contests for that...

You could microwave a sauce... but NEVER EVER meat that was going into a turn in box.

my ribs and chicken come off the pit and into the box, the pork and brisket comes out of a cooler... and is so hot that I need to wear insulated gloves to pick it up. AS long as you aren't cutting or pulling meat too far in advance, you should be fine.

KC_Bobby
10-26-2007, 02:35 PM
I didn't even know you could use a alternative heat sources to warm sauce.

watg?
10-26-2007, 02:41 PM
Very illegal... so illegal that you'd get banned for 2 years from contests for that...

You could microwave a sauce... but NEVER EVER meat that was going into a turn in box.

my ribs and chicken come off the pit and into the box, the pork and brisket comes out of a cooler... and is so hot that I need to wear insulated gloves to pick it up. AS long as you aren't cutting or pulling meat too far in advance, you should be fine.


So, heating a sauce on a gas stove is legal, correct?

Transformer BBQ
10-26-2007, 02:45 PM
yes, you can heat a sauce on a gas stove

Sledneck
10-26-2007, 02:45 PM
So, heating a sauce on a gas stove is legal, correct?
Yes it is legal to use gas .i use a an electric hotplate to heat sauce which is legal as well

watg?
10-26-2007, 02:59 PM
it is absolutly illegal to use anything to warm the food except a wood fired pit. You may hold in a cooler or kambro to keep it hot until prep time, but nothing using propane or electricity and that includes microwaves or gas fired ovens.

For me, during a contest, ribs, pork and brisket are usually coming out of a cooler after resting for a bit and are still to hot to handle, and chicken is coming right off the pit.

If needed, you may return it to your pit to set glazes and warm stuff up a bit before going into the boxes, but thats it.. NO ELECTRIC OR GAS.

honestly, if you use a cooler or kambro to hold the meats, there is NO reason to heat it up. They are very hot when the time comes. Also, keep in mind, the hotter the product when it goes into the box, the more they will wilt the greens. When u close the box, it becomes a little steamroom.


I do the same thing, holding my finished products in the cooler before boxing. At dover we had a good spot out of the wind to build our boxes. The pork was to hot to handle coming out of the cooler. But, by the time it was pulled, sorted, sauced and boxed, there was no warmth left. So it went into the box at air temp. I was thinking, if I could zap that pile o pork in the micro, it would solve the problem. But, I had a funny feeling that it was not legal. thanks for the info.

Munkee's Pit
10-26-2007, 03:04 PM
By the time that it gets turned in, re-numbered, taken to the judges, opened and scored for appearance and passed around the judges table, chances are that it is not very hot anymore. I can't remember ever judging an entry that was HOT. Once in a while some warm ones, but most are pretty well cold.

Dale P
10-26-2007, 03:21 PM
I have always used charcoal to reduce or heat sauces. I might need to read the rules. LOL

SmokyOkie
10-26-2007, 03:32 PM
You may hold in a cooler or kambro to keep it hot until prep time,


:icon_blush::icon_blush::icon_blush: What is a kambro?:icon_blush::icon_blush::icon_blush:

Divemaster
10-26-2007, 03:57 PM
That's what we call oversized coolers on casters.....

SmokyOkie
10-26-2007, 04:08 PM
Thanx. Got any pix?

The_Kapn
10-26-2007, 04:49 PM
:icon_blush::icon_blush::icon_blush: What is a kambro?:icon_blush::icon_blush::icon_blush:

Tim,

With proper spelling---Google is your friend :lol:

http://cool.cambro.com/

TIM

Jeff_in_KC
10-26-2007, 06:07 PM
We have used microwaves to warm sauce in the past but most of the time, I try to remember it early enough that I can put a bottle or two in the smoker. We also reduce brisket drippings and other "secret" ingredients in a pan over a hotplate as well before dumping it on briskets we're wrapping.

Sledneck
10-27-2007, 04:37 AM
When i judged the Hudson Valley ribfest this past August all of the ribs were ice cold except one, man this thing was almost to hot to touch.The other 5 judges were so impressed with this Maybe they didnt know about the microwave rule:rolleyes: Just Kidding.

Sledneck
10-27-2007, 04:40 AM
Thanx. Got any pix?
Everytime im at RD i am so tempted to purcahse one of those. They always have black or grey so i dont. I would only get blue to match my thermapen, besides the blue cambros hold heat better than the other colors

FatBoyz
10-27-2007, 08:12 AM
we use a truck cooler works great but now i dont know if its ilegal i will have to find out

Pig Headed
10-27-2007, 08:36 AM
Sled, I got a black one at RD. I know it's not as good as a blue one, but...they didn't have any orange ones to match my thermopen which everybody know are the superior ones.
It was blown off the table in Dover, now I have to replace one of the latches.

KC_Bobby
10-27-2007, 09:53 AM
we use a truck cooler works great but now i dont know if its ilegal i will have to find out

Are you referring to something similar to a Coleman Thermoelectric? If so, let me know what you find out. I'm guessing it's illegal since heat is generated through electrical power.

FatBoyz
10-27-2007, 10:08 AM
Are you referring to something similar to a Coleman Thermoelectric? If so, let me know what you find out. I'm guessing it's illegal since heat is generated through electrical power.
yup thats it i will call mike lake monday and find out if so it's back to blankets and the plain old cooler again..

Mrs. Sawdust
10-27-2007, 12:32 PM
Do whatever you want BUT....... We asked the KCBS Reps this question once and they stated that you CANNOT use anything but wood, woodpellets or charcoal to cook or reheat ANYTHING! We specifically asked about heating sauces on our propane stove or electric hotplate, the Rep gave us an emphatic NO!!(We wanted to melt chocolate for a desert in a grilling contest that used strict KCBS rules) Just remember KCBS rule #18 subtopic G which could result in being banned from competing for 2 years. For us it's not worth the risk.

watg?
10-27-2007, 12:37 PM
Do whatever you want BUT....... We asked the KCBS Reps this question once and they stated that you CANNOT use anything but wood, woodpellets or charcoal to cook or reheat ANYTHING! We specifically asked about heating sauces on our propane stove or electric hotplate, the Rep gave us an emphatic NO!!(We wanted to melt chocolate for a desert in a grilling contest that used strict KCBS rules) Just remember KCBS rule #18 subtopic G which could result in being banned from competing for 2 years. For us it's not worth the risk.


now I am really cornfused

watg?
10-27-2007, 12:46 PM
I was also wondering from any of the active judges out there, could they give an estimate of the time lapse between when the box hits the judges table and when the judges actually sample the product. I was thinking it might make sense when doing test cooking at home, to taste your finished product after it sets around a while, allowing time for box building, turn in, then time in the judges tent. Typically I am tasting right out of the cooler before boxing. While I would still do this, it might make sense to see what the taste is after the elapsed time, is it the same, if different,how? can the seasoning be adjusted to compensate? or maybe I am overthinking this issue.

KC_Bobby
10-27-2007, 02:24 PM
Kinda depends. As soon as 6 boxes get to the turn in table, they work their way back to the judges. Typically, the tray of 6 turn ins goes from the front table to a table that they get re-numbered, from there the table captain takes them to their judging table.

At the judging table the table capt tells the judges what numbers to write down on their card and plate. Then the table capt opens the first box and shows it around to the judges for them to all get a good look and write down the app. score. Then the box gets closed and put back on the tray where the table capt gets the next one and does the same. After all 6 boxes are judged for app., the table capt grabs the first box and gives it to the judge to take a piece and pass it around. As soon as the first judge has the first sample, the table capt gives the next box to that judge and so on. I'd say it's about a 10 minute process just to score app.

So I'd guess about 15 minutes from the time you turn in to the time it hits the judges mouth is a good estimate - give or take a few minutes.

acorette
10-27-2007, 05:46 PM
I was thinking it might make sense when doing test cooking at home, to taste your finished product after it sets around a while, allowing time for box building, turn in, then time in the judges tent. Typically I am tasting right out of the cooler before boxing. While I would still do this, it might make sense to see what the taste is after the elapsed time, is it the same, if different,how? can the seasoning be adjusted to compensate? or maybe I am overthinking this issue.

You are not overthinking at all - In the Judges class I attended at Oinktoberfest, the KCBS reps gave a suggestion to the cooks in the audience to do just that... Build two boxes for turn in; turn in the better one, and sample the remaining one after about 10-15 minutes.... That tells you what the judges are tasting. That should provide you a better estimate of what your meats taste like to the judges.

SmokyOkie
10-29-2007, 09:44 AM
Being a perhaps soon to be competition cooker after about 30 years of cooking barbeque, I realize that I will have to learn the rules and so I've studied this thread carefully and come to the conclusion that it might be legal to use a microwave provided the microwave is over 18 years of age.

Am I understanding this correctly?

BTW, thanx TIM and SLED for the education! I always did do better with pictures.

billm
10-29-2007, 10:34 AM
No way, Jose. Wouldn't want to wilt the garnish anyway. Food temp isn't a consideration in KCBS judging. Doesn't need to be hot. Appearance, Taste, Tenderness. Temp shouldn't come into play.

My $0.02.
Aaron

temp not a consideration but the temp of the meat will affect taste to some degree
that pulled pork gets cold awful quick and brisket drys out even faster

SmokyOkie
10-29-2007, 10:50 AM
temp not a consideration but the temp of the meat will affect taste to some degree
that pulled pork gets cold awful quick and brisket drys out even faster

No doubt, temperature does affect taste to a large degree. Do wilted greens count against the appearance?

goodsmokebbq
10-29-2007, 10:52 AM
No way, Jose. Wouldn't want to wilt the garnish anyway. Food temp isn't a consideration in KCBS judging. Doesn't need to be hot. Appearance, Taste, Tenderness. Temp shouldn't come into play.

My $0.02.
Aaron

At Oinktoberfest I was given a comment card from a judge "Is it supposed to be frozen?" This judge didn't listen or wasn't told... and nice attitude to boot.

Pickin' Porkers
10-29-2007, 09:59 PM
We can all sit here and talk all the smack we want but the bottom line is that there is NOTHING that prohibits or allows one to heat up boxes, sauces or what have you in the KCBS rules. The only thing to hang your teeth on is the section about fuel and KCBS needs to clear this interpretation up.....very soon. I personally know of teams that rush inside to run their stuff in the nuke machine or use electric to heat sauce. I haven't....never would......and hope like hell KCBS will step up and address this issue. I have an RV and do use it to make a box to get away from spectators. But...if it means all boxes are prepped in the open....I'll do it if others will....

Mitch
10-29-2007, 10:17 PM
No-No-No-No. Heat can come only from wood, charcoal, or pellets. Ignition can be by gas/electric, but must be disconnected during cooking and "warming".

MilitantSquatter
10-29-2007, 10:20 PM
I personally know of teams that rush inside to run their stuff in the nuke machine or use electric to heat sauce.

Welcome... Check into cattle call when you have a moment to introduce yourself.

Have you ever reported this to the reps or communicated directly with KCBS about the problem you see happening ?

MMM... microwaved ribs... yum.

Cabrito
10-29-2007, 10:43 PM
Food temp isn't a consideration in KCBS judging. Doesn't need to be hot. Appearance, Taste, Tenderness. Temp shouldn't come into play.

My $0.02.
Aaron

Temp shouldn't come into play but I am sure it does. I have discussed this with other judges in the past after turning in scores. Particularly when judging pork. Rarely do we judge anything hot. Usually warm. And occasionally cold. When you judge 5 warm samples and the the sixth one is cold- it does stand out in a negative way. It is very difficult to put the temperature aside and ignore it if you are judging other entrees that are warm. Cold meat just throws you off- it effects taste and texture. This may not seem fair, however, I do wonder why so many are able to make it to the judges table warm while others come cold. Some of you competitors are timing it right, which I believe is an advantage. So much time and resources go into competing that taking this one extra step of getting the food to the judges as warm as possible is definitely worth it.

Sledneck
10-29-2007, 10:49 PM
Just remember KCBS rule #18 subtopic G which could result in being banned from competing for 2 years. For us it's not worth the risk.
It only mentions the cooker in that rule:

G. Use of gas or other auxiliary heat sources inside the
cooking device. In addition, the team and its members
will be banned from competing in KCBS events for two
years.


Its vague

Sawdustguy
10-29-2007, 10:50 PM
Temp shouldn't come into play but I am sure it does. I have discussed this with other judges in the past after turning in scores. Particularly when judging pork. Rarely do we judge anything hot. Usually warm. And occasionally cold. When you judge 5 warm samples and the the sixth one is cold- it does stand out in a negative way. It is very difficult to put the temperature aside and ignore it if you are judging other entrees that are warm. Cold meat just throws you off- it effects taste and texture. This may not seem fair, however, I do wonder why so many are able to make it to the judges table warm while others come cold. Some of you competitors are timing it right, which I believe is an advantage. So much time and resources go into competing that taking this one extra step of getting the food to the judges as warm as possible is definitely worth it.

Teams have absolutely no control over when the meat gets to the judges. It could be from immediately to 15 minutes before the judges get the meat to judge. If a judge can't judge cold meat fairly they should do everyone a favor and stay home. Cookers invest alot of time and money competing and someone who can not judge cold meat fairly would be doing everyone a favor by staying home and not judging.

Sawdustguy
10-29-2007, 10:57 PM
It only mentions the cooker in that rule:

G. Use of gas or other auxiliary heat sources inside the
cooking device. In addition, the team and its members
will be banned from competing in KCBS events for two
years.


Its vague


Don't say we didn't warn you.:biggrin: Where is Jim Minion when you need him.

Sledneck
10-29-2007, 11:00 PM
It would be real nice to get an official clarification on this

Cabrito
10-29-2007, 11:24 PM
Teams have absolutely no control over when the meat gets to the judges. It could be from immediately to 15 minutes before the judges get the meat to judge. If a judge can't judge cold meat fairly they should do everyone a favor and stay home. Cookers invest alot of time and money competing and someone who can not judge cold meat fairly would be doing everyone a favor by staying home and not judging.

I agree with you that all meat, whether cold or hot, should be judged fairly. However, since the topic of this thread is keeping meat hot or reheating, I was making the point that it is to a competitors advantage to try as much as possible to keep the food warm. I know you have no control over how long it takes from turn in til the meat is brought to the judge. But a previous poster said that temp did not matter. I am just stating the reality that cold meat does effect the taste and texture of some entries. When you are judging texture and the pork or brisket is a bit tougher because it is cold, you must rate it on the way it is brought to you, not the way you imagined it to be when it was warm. To be honest, it is rare that I have ever had to judge cold food. It is usually warm or room temp.

acorette
10-30-2007, 10:49 AM
I personally don't think that any clarification is necessary. Are people thinking that they "cook" over wood and "reheat" with microwaves? That "reheat" step is really cooking, and you are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. As someone Divemaster earlier, until you invent a charcoal that generates microwaves, you'd better rethink the process of getting heat in your meat. Wood or charcoal only for KCBS.

If any of you have been following the "DQ'd" thread about being DQ'd because chicken looked fried, maybe judges should DQ food that's hot because it may have been microwaved. (wow, let's see what kind of trouble I can stir up with this post!)

Sledneck
10-30-2007, 05:50 PM
I personally don't think that any clarification is necessary. Are people thinking that they "cook" over wood and "reheat" with microwaves? That "reheat" step is really cooking, and you are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. As someone Divemaster earlier, until you invent a charcoal that generates microwaves, you'd better rethink the process of getting heat in your meat. Wood or charcoal only for KCBS.

If any of you have been following the "DQ'd" thread about being DQ'd because chicken looked fried, maybe judges should DQ food that's hot because it may have been microwaved. (wow, let's see what kind of trouble I can stir up with this post!)
It is necessary. I am not talking about the heating the food itself i am talking about heating up sauces on a propane stove or electric hot plate.

jminion
10-31-2007, 08:41 PM
Been real busy the past few days and have not been able to spend much time on line but here goes.

The heat source must be wood for cooking or warming meat.

Sauce can be heated on other heat sources as long as no meat is involved in that process.

I personelly use the pit to heat sauce I don't need or want any questions raised no matter if it would be legal to do so or not.

Jim

MilitantSquatter
10-31-2007, 08:51 PM
Been real busy the past few days and have not been able to spend much time on line but here goes.

The heat source must be wood for cooking or warming meat.

Sauce can be heated on other heat sources as long as no meat is involved in that process.

I personelly use the pit to heat sauce I don't need or want any questions raised no matter if it would be legal to do so or not.

Jim

Thanks Jim... Not sure I agree with the rule but it is what it is.

If this is the rule, seems like it is an easy fix to clarify in the rules book.

Does KCBS plan to clarify in a future edition of the rules ?

G$
10-31-2007, 09:10 PM
Been real busy the past few days and have not been able to spend much time on line but here goes.

The heat source must be wood for cooking or warming meat.
Got it. Straight forward.

Sauce can be heated on other heat sources as long as no meat is involved in that process.
Got it. Straight forward.

I personelly use the pit to heat sauce I don't need or want any questions raised no matter if it would be legal to do so or not.

Jim
Ughh! If the above is true, there should be no "questions". This should get spelled out more clearly in the future.

jminion
10-31-2007, 09:44 PM
Thanks Jim... Not sure I agree with the rule but it is what it is.

If this is the rule, seems like it is an easy fix to clarify in the rules book.

Does KCBS plan to clarify in a future edition of the rules ?

The rule states that meat must be cooked on a wood fuel source, it's pretty clear. There is no rule concerning heating or making sauce, so alt heating sources are not illegal.

There will rules meeting at the banquet in KC in Jan, you can attend the meeting or write the Board with any rule changes you would like discussed.

G$
Perception, right or wrong still must be delt with. I use the pit because I also want some smoke on the sauce.

AlabamaGrillBillies
11-01-2007, 08:32 AM
I use the pit because I also want some smoke on the sauce.


Yup, My first comp I used a propane fueled griddle/stove to heat my sauce. We use it to cook breakfast on as well.

Now I use either my webber or put it in the smoker. I really like using the pit b/c of the little smoke it picks up.