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View Full Version : Bigmista's Brisket Appearance


Bigmista
10-21-2007, 09:02 AM
Judges, how would you score this brisket and why?

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/Viejas/viejas782.jpg

bbqbull
10-21-2007, 09:12 AM
Neil, Im not a trained judge.
All I can say is pass me the bread. Another great job!

Pig Headed
10-21-2007, 09:34 AM
Neil, I have to give you a 7. While the brisket looks good, the upper most piece is longer and bending down and the lowest one is a bit long on the lower right end. I think you could even them up a bit more.
It looks nice and juicy and has a nice smoke ring.

ThomEmery
10-21-2007, 09:36 AM
YUM Is all I could say

lwest99
10-21-2007, 10:02 AM
Mista I think I agree with Ron. It looks like the slices had to be curled over to fit in the box. You could either cut the brisket to box size before you cook it (allow for shrinkage). Or you could just trim off one end.

Great smoke ring and it looks very moist.

Pig Headed
10-21-2007, 10:12 AM
Neil, when our slices are too long to fit sideways, we put them in diagonally.

Ford
10-21-2007, 10:23 AM
looks like you may have some burnt ends or chunks at the back to make the slices stand up and fan. Makes it look odd. Agree with comments on bending slices.

Garnish is not very good and while it's a meat contest the first overall impression is what you see in the box. I see a bunch of lettuce up front covering the first slice. That top slice neeeds to be in full view and needs to glisten. That's what the small paint brushes are for in our presentation boxes. If you take a competition class (Mike D., Rod, Trigg, etc. they show you their presentation boxes and all I can say is they sure are Kodak moments.

Sauce application to slices is good except for some ends. I'm guessing maybe you used hands to put in the box and rubbed off a little sauce and didn't go back and touch up. For brisket allow 2 minutes just to do little touch ups so everything is uniform and glistens.

Meat looks very well cooked and I'd be happy to sample a slcie as a judge.

swamprb
10-21-2007, 10:35 AM
Neil-What were the Brisket scores?

Ron_L
10-21-2007, 10:40 AM
I'm in for a 7 also. The garnish isn't even all around, but that wouldn't make me knock it down by itself, but it is a contributing factor. The meat should have been trimmed to fit or pu in on an angle like Pig Headed's box. Also, It's a picture so my opinion would probably be different in person, but it doesn't scream "eat me" to me. The slices look kind of flat (no shine) and the burnt ends look dry. That's probably the picture, however.

What were your appearance scores, Mista?

Pig Headed, what were your scores for your box? I like the shine on the bark but the chunks front and back look a little out of place. The slices do make me want to grab one, however. Probably an 8, maybe a 9 in person.

Nitrofly
10-21-2007, 10:54 AM
Box is not as neat as it should be.
you need to trim your brisket to fit in the
box. are you burnt ends there for the Judges
to eat or are they just a prop to hold your
slices up?? plus the part of some of your
slices that you made turn the corner is just
fat sticking up.. Most judges don't find fat
appealing.. I still would love to taste your
brisket looks moist and tasty.

Pig Headed
10-21-2007, 11:07 AM
Pig Headed, what were your scores for your box? I like the shine on the bark but the chunks front and back look a little out of place. The slices do make me want to grab one, however. Probably an 8, maybe a 9 in person.[/quote]


The box was from Dover this weekend. Got 8's and 9's in appearence. First time we used the chunks in a box. I just thought there was too much empty space in front and back of the slices. Wish the rest of the scores were as good. Mostly 7's in taste.

ModelMaker
10-21-2007, 12:37 PM
Mista, nice lookin meat for the most part. Even up your greens, slices are just too darn big, try trimming to desired size pre cook maybe loose some of that fat. Personaly fat is a part of that piece of meat and it doesn't bother me but I hear other judges not quite as ok with it as me. Looks moist and tasty.
Score 7.5 pry would write down a 7 just because of the ends of the slices.

Ron, 7 for yours, slices are too thin but look real nice. Those pieces in front , are there 6 or 12 if 12 then you just stacked some cut up slices not near as appealing as chunks. And chunks should not be perfect squares of meat!
Of course nothing a nice fresh bun would't fix!!!
ModelMaker

The_Kapn
10-21-2007, 02:03 PM
Neil,

7(ish) from me--Sorry.

Like everyone has said, attention to detail gets the biggo scores.

TIM

bbqjoe
10-21-2007, 02:26 PM
Wow!
What a tough crowd!

I am a little concerned with the ladybug on the lettuce.

Bentley
10-21-2007, 02:29 PM
I would give it a 7. I am posting this before reading everyone comments so I will be curious if anyone else votes like me and gives some feed back. The meat looks very inviting, but it looks crowded in the box. I like the garnish, but I would also put some parsley to accent it. As a CBJ, I sometimes struggle with appearence, I am told it is a "meat" contest but garnish is optional. Well if you are going to use garnish I want the team to try and go over the top! I am not sure if am way off base as a CBJ in this thinking? I will be very curious to see other responses.

Edit Mod: I see I am not as far off in my thinking as I thought!

Pig Headed
10-21-2007, 02:32 PM
Ron, 7 for yours, slices are too thin but look real nice. Those pieces in front , are there 6 or 12 if 12 then you just stacked some cut up slices not near as appealing as chunks. And chunks should not be perfect squares of meat!
Of course nothing a nice fresh bun would't fix!!!
ModelMaker[/quote]

There's 12 pieces there. I cut them up for some of the spectators, but had second thoughts and wanted to fill the void in front.

G$
10-21-2007, 04:06 PM
Pictures do not tell the whole story, but a few thoughts: Some of the excess in particular is fat - that coul dbe trimmed. Ther are what APPEAR to be pro be holes in some slices. Again, tough to tell, it could be where fat or connective has rendered away, but they look like possible holes from the picture. The garnis is uneven - not sure what to say other than that.

Oh yeah, one last thing, looks better than the boxes I put together!

Bigmista
10-21-2007, 06:15 PM
Here are the scores:

777 766 877 776 765 766

Bentley can comment on taste and tenderness.

Bentley
10-21-2007, 06:25 PM
Here are the scores:

777 766 877 776 765 766

Bentley can comment on taste and tenderness.


Mista gave me a piece as we were sitting around. I thought it was tough, or a better way to put it would say it could have been more tender, told him I would give him a 6 for tenderness, but the flavor was a 9 if I had been judging it! It tasted like steak to me, one of the most flavorful briskets I have tasted. Neil's brisket was better than mine IMO, I get 16th he gets 24th. I know judging is subjective and my taste is not the World rule, but his brisket should have beat mine. I am getting to the point where I have no idea what a judge is look for!

If you would have let me taste my brisket and Neil's brisket before turn-in and pick which one I could turn in for my team it would have been his...I just dont get it!

BLQ the team that won GC and 1st in brisket at Viejas, I had a piece of their brisket at the 2006 Silent Valley contest and it was the best piece of brisket I have ever had bar none, I got 1st at that contest and BLQ got 3rd...again, sometimes I don't get it!

Bigmista
10-21-2007, 08:46 PM
Thanks Bentley. I don't get it either. I can accept that it might not have been top ten but I really don't think it was 24th place brisket either. At least everybody liked the Gumbo.

Sawdustguy
10-21-2007, 08:54 PM
Mista,

I gave you a solid 8. It made me want to grab for a few slices.

NotleyQue
10-21-2007, 09:16 PM
I tasted the brisket. It was really good. I liked it. Awsome flavor. I dont know what I did different.

SmokeWatcher
10-21-2007, 09:55 PM
I gave it a 4.....only because I can't smell or taste it from here. :-P:-P

billm
10-22-2007, 07:08 AM
7..possible 8 since pictures can be deceiving .looks good but slices could use some neatening up to put it in the 9 range..
Bill - Cook & CBJ

TOPS BBQ
10-22-2007, 12:52 PM
Neil,

I was tetering between an 8 and 7. I was not impressed with the garnish and it looked uneven. But like Bently, I scored prior to reading everyone else's response. I'm not a CBJ and it shows a bit. I scored it an 8.

Chris Nickelson
10-22-2007, 12:53 PM
I agree with the others. It just needs a little dressing up. First thing that caught my eye was the lack of lettuce on the right side. This draws your attention away from the meat. The meat should be the focal point and the garnish if any should not draw your attention away. As for the meat I gree that the slices were just a bit big. ALmost looks crammed in. Otherwise good ring, good moisture( at least per the foto).

Countryhb
10-22-2007, 03:16 PM
I gave you a 4 because Mrs. Mista hates me!! :)

cmcadams
10-22-2007, 03:27 PM
I gave it a 7... same reasons... ends look ragged, too much fat, it looks dry... have you sauced it? I've changed my mind about saucing brisket... judges like sauce. Some judges like no sauce, but just about all judges like sauce. Why play the odds backwards?

G$
10-22-2007, 04:42 PM
Thanks Bentley. I don't get it either. I can accept that it might not have been top ten but I really don't think it was 24th place brisket either. At least everybody liked the Gumbo.

Ya know, I fall prey to this sometimes. Remember that appearance REALLY is a small part of the score. Based on your scores, the taste and tenderness were not what the judges were looking for more than the appearance.

I am curious, also, if you sampled some 20 minutes after turn in. There will always be variance on how well meat keeps until judging, but sometimes it varies more than you would expect.

BEAR IN MIND: We have really struggled with brisket, so I am certainly the not the one to offer any brisket tips!

The_Kapn
10-22-2007, 05:35 PM
Thanks Bentley. I don't get it either. I can accept that it might not have been top ten but I really don't think it was 24th place brisket either. At least everybody liked the Gumbo.

Neil,
Here is my opinion and observation about scoring "in the middle".
Believe me--I am the "Master of DAM" (Dead Ass Middle) :twisted:

I think many judges really consider (ponder) giving the top scores to an entry. I know I think a lot before giving an 8 vs a 9 (using KCBS).

I think many judges really consider (ponder) giving the bottom scores to an entry. I I know I think a lot before giving a 4 vs a 5 (using KCBS again).

I plead guilty to not putting as much consideration (pondering) into the 6's and 7's (and some marginal 8's) I enter.
That is a fine line and I think most judges are the same way---like it or not.

It is just "average" or so and does not deserve to place high or be at the bottom of the field.

The result is, IMHO, once my score drops out of the top 10-15% of scores, the numerical ranking means little.
The scores just get "jumbled up" and mean little in terms of "ranking".

I personally doubt that there is much difference in the quality of the entries "in the middle" of the pack to really "rank" them accurately.

Using a 30 team field as an example, I think the top 5 (give or take) teams or entries were probably the "best 5". The "order" of 1 thru 5 might be subject to errors, but the entries/teams were, in fact, the best 5 for the day.
Same logic for the bottom 5 (give or take).

What about all us guys in the "middle" ?

I really do not believe the "rankings' of the middle have any resemblence to reality!

Been there, done that!

JMHO

TIM

big brother smoke
10-22-2007, 08:50 PM
Brisket ain't my thing, but I thought Mista's brisket was tasty.

smoke-n-my-i's
10-23-2007, 11:43 AM
I gave it an 8... toyed with a 7. I am not a judge either, so take it as such.

the slices were not laid in evenly... a little too long, and looks like some fat. and the lettuce was not even either.

I agree with a photo is hard to judge compared to the actual seeing it.


I have learned to look to perfection. That is why I let my wife to the boxes. I do the cooking, she does the detailing.... it works out better for me that way. If it was me, just toss it in the box...

Bill

HB-BBQ
10-23-2007, 11:20 PM
I thought it was really good Mista.

crewdawg52
10-26-2007, 10:16 AM
Thought about a 6, but gave it a 7. Looks good, but garnish lacking on right side of box (uneven) and meat looks crowded.....curled to make it fit.

Bigmista
10-27-2007, 02:26 AM
IBCA sure is easier. Seven slices sitting on a piece of foil. Slices parallel to the front of the box. Takes a lot of variables out and it taste and tenderness become more important.

Slamdunkpro
10-28-2007, 01:11 AM
I'm posting without reading beyond the first post, so I'll be curious to read beyond and see where I ended up.

I gave it a 7. The garish is uneven on the right and blocks the meat in the front (in the photo). The meat seems crowded in the box. The slices aren't really uniform.

Bigmista
11-21-2007, 11:12 AM
I don't why this came back up but since it did, here is the brisket from the next contest I did. It was an IBCA contest. This one got 3rd place...

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/La%20Quinta/laquinta_69.jpg

michiana mark
11-21-2007, 11:39 AM
Looks good BM, I like the simplicity of the IBCA box. Let's you concentrate on the meat, which is what it is all about.

tony76248
11-21-2007, 12:17 PM
Not to beat a dead horse.....but thank goodness for IBCA judging! Who cares whether it is purdy or not!

Bossmanbbq
11-21-2007, 02:56 PM
Neil I would give you a 7 as well, like most of the other replies I think the box could be alittle more organized appearance wise, even out the cuts and make it look more attractive, other then that the meat looks good and moist with a good smoke ring.

Bossmanbbq
11-21-2007, 03:01 PM
I gave it a 7... same reasons... ends look ragged, too much fat, it looks dry... have you sauced it? I've changed my mind about saucing brisket... judges like sauce. Some judges like no sauce, but just about all judges like sauce. Why play the odds backwards?
I agree with you Curt. After going throught the judging school and hearing most of the judges in training commenting on sauce, even thought they were instructed to judge on the overall taste of the meat, I learned that these individuals are not as big a BBQ snob as I am and will judge things according to the outward taste of the meat. I know lightly sauce all of my contest meat for that very reason.
I personally like the Texas style of Q with no sauce, but if I want to win at a contest I have to lightly sauce it.

lunchlady
11-21-2007, 03:17 PM
Remember that appearance REALLY is a small part of the score. ...


...although this is VERY true, the appearance is the only thing you actually have absolute control over...taste and tenderness being as subjective as they are. Took us many 6's and 7's to figure that one out.

I think this is a tough crowd too, I would have given it an 8, I never noticed the "uneven" garnish, I did however notice it wasn't all smudged up with sauce.
I thought it kinda screamed 'eat me'... looking all moist and yummy... but the slices were curled around with some fat hanging out. With that being said, I'd love to try it!

Bigmista
11-21-2007, 03:21 PM
How did you feel about the IBCA box I posted later in the thread?

HB-BBQ
11-21-2007, 04:26 PM
I think they both looked good but the IBCA one for some reason looks even better to me. After tasting your brisket at Viejas they were all winners in my book but then again I am not a judge...

big brother smoke
11-21-2007, 05:01 PM
How did you feel about the IBCA box I posted later in the thread?

Made me want Slice and you know how finnacky I am regarding brisket:cool:

JamesTX
11-21-2007, 05:13 PM
It all looks good to me. What sort of texture wins contests - falling apart, fork tender, something else?

Bigmista
11-21-2007, 05:51 PM
In Texas, you would probably be in an IBCA contest. They have to be able to cut off a piece with a plastic knife and fork. More tender is better.

lunchlady
11-21-2007, 07:25 PM
8... but that's probably just because its a picture, and not sitting in front of me.
If it was, I'd probably go with a 9.
(although, can I see brush marks?, I personally don't like that but I'd give it to you cuz I know what goes into getting it there)

Makes me wonder... are judges more or less forgiving without the greens around. Haven't dared to try that yet, except BOTB in Douglas, GA - no garnish allowed.

Things that make you go hmmmmm....

Bigmista
11-22-2007, 12:10 AM
That second one was IBCA. No garnish allowed either.

beam boys bbq
11-22-2007, 09:35 AM
I don't why this came back up but since it did, here is the brisket from the next contest I did. It was an IBCA contest. This one got 3rd place...

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/La%20Quinta/laquinta_69.jpg


this is neat - no fat - layed out nice - same size pc - good and brown

i would have to agree with the judges on this whole tread

york

JamesTX
11-22-2007, 10:15 AM
Do the knife marks count against the score?

Is there any consistency from contest to contest in the taste that judges look for?

buckinbbq
04-29-2008, 10:53 PM
What type of sauce do you use on your Brisket?

hcarter
04-30-2008, 11:13 AM
I liked the second box better, it seemed neater and the pieces more uniform. My initial reaction to the first box was "7." But I am not a trained judge, so...you know...grain of salt and all that. I would, however, be very pleased to serve that to my family.

Bigmista
04-30-2008, 08:21 PM
What type of sauce do you use on your Brisket?

Homemade sauce mixed with au jus.

WannaBeBBQueen
05-01-2008, 08:06 AM
Yummy Yummy...I gave it an 8, thinking that the pieces would have worked better on an angle and you need to be able to see the bark :biggrin:...other than that send me the next one and I'll tell you exactly how I score it :mrgreen:

Bigdog
05-01-2008, 09:40 AM
This is one of the best things about this site. Everyone gave their opinion on it and some were brutally honest. That is a good thing. The same thing will happen at a contest so you need to be prepared for it. Some people just see things differently, and what's good to one person may not be good to others. It's just the way life is.

For those of you who watch American Idol, the judge named Simon is an arrogant arse, but he is brutally honest. I usually agree with him too. :eek:

QDoc
05-01-2008, 05:24 PM
testing

buckinbbq
05-01-2008, 05:30 PM
Would you like to share some of the ingridients with me or leet me buy a bottle from you?

tony76248
05-02-2008, 05:32 PM
IBCA sure is easier. Seven slices sitting on a piece of foil. Slices parallel to the front of the box. Takes a lot of variables out and it taste and tenderness become more important.

That's what I have been trying to tell these guys. Unfortunately, KCBS cookers want these score sheets that if you think about it, do not mean squat. Each and every score is dependant upon a given day and a given set of judges. BTW, I hope you enjoyed your IBCA cookoff last month.

Sorry Big, but I think these folks were being nice to you as far as appearance goes because you are a brethren. Go back and look at other boxes that folks here on the site ask to be rated. Everybody always gets the same reaction, 7 and 8. The fact is, you brisket did not look good at all in that photo in comparison to some other boxes we have rated.... and they got the same rating.

That said, your brisket might have scored a 10 (the highest) in IBCA if it tasted good.....as long as it wasn't sauced.

Tony

Dale P
05-03-2008, 06:21 AM
Tony, taking a dump and not wiping may be easier too, but I go the extra mile.:razz:

Mista, 1st box the meat looks good but 7 is what I saw. The 2nd box I give a 7 because the foil was uneven. :wink:

tony76248
05-03-2008, 04:50 PM
Tony, taking a dump and not wiping may be easier too, but I go the extra mile.:razz:

Mista, 1st box the meat looks good but 7 is what I saw. The 2nd box I give a 7 because the foil was uneven. :wink:

Either it is a meat contest or it isn't.

Lettuce... we don't need no stink'n lettuce!

BTW, wiping is a matter of good hygiene around my place, not sure I get the analogy. :wink:

Actually, I wasn't agreeing that it is easier, I was more in agreement that taste and tenderness are more important.

Dale P
05-04-2008, 07:44 AM
Tony, I can tell from your sig "no need for" that you are the type of guy who is very head strong and probably are always right. I can be that way too. I can be a bossy sum beotch, moody at times, but you can reason with me. Hear me out.

When I first started competing I thought that garnish was a waste of time but after practicing it became clear to me that there is more to it. Its the building process, trying to make it perfect as fast as I can so the meat stays warm. The satisfaction I get when I see a 9 on our sheet for appearance makes it worth the extra effort. When we build our boxes, we have fun doing it, we really do, and I suspect others who score well feel the same. Plus it just looks better then just meat in a box. :razz:

Tony, I dont know if you cook KCBS or not, but if you dont, why would you give a fark? :wink: Seriously, I dont care if other comps or whatever garnishs or not. Whatever rules that a contest has, Im ready. We cook 1 unsanctioned contest a year that doesnt use garnish. We won that sucker last year and I never complained.

tony76248
05-04-2008, 07:03 PM
Yeah, there is the possibility that I might be a little headstrong :icon_pissed, but will usually admit when I am wrong. I cook IBCA and enjoy doing so. I see a lot of references to folks expressing displeasure in the KCBS judging system, so I like them to know that there is an alternative out there. I have not to date seen a post complaining about IBCA judging. Not that I haven't found some judges to be taste bud challenged...:wink:

My reference to knowing good BBQ came from someone who is a Certified KCBS judge who recieved a tongue lashing because his table gave low scores to all of the boxes that came accross their table at a particular event. Myron Mixon's boxes included. He defended himself saying he knew what good BBQ tasted like and I then realized his dilemma. BTW he does post here and may chime in.

IBCA utilizes a blind scoring system where other than the final table you really never know what preliminary tables you product lands on. Also each table will offer up the same number of boxes to the subsequent table.

Therefore if you have 50 entries, You might have 3-4 preliminary tables that will each send six or more boxes forth to the final table where the judging process starts all over again. Also you might have three rounds of tables or four depending on the number of competitors.

Here is the IBCA rules website, http://www.ibcabbq.org/topbar/rul.html
I think you can follow how we do it based on this page.

I do not think that we (IBCA) have ever considered offering judging classes. That said, the head judges are trained but they do not actually do the judging, They just oversee the tables to ensure that folks (normally volunteers for the sponsoring charity) don't talk amongst themselves and that they don't come for dinner.... On many occasions we might have a head judge and several other folks who assist watching the tables. My wife and daughter will halp out at about half of the events that I cook at each year.

Headstrong????? who me????

Dustaway
05-04-2008, 07:32 PM
Tony, take a breath IBCA & TGCBCA have issues also, like having just a 1-10 for each judge? I would like to see 1-10 for appearance, taste. tenderness each. the TGC will be requiring two chickens to be turned in starting in June for appearance reasons.

I personally don't believe that pot roast brisket & sweet Arse ribs should win or place in Texas, but they do & If they want it rubbed in the ground before turn in well thats what I will do if thats what it takes. And tell me why we need foil in the damn box for??

ALL sanctioning body's have issues there is no perfect one yet.

Mista I would give it a 6 for appearance you should of trimmed the ends to fit the box.