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Sledneck
10-19-2007, 07:17 AM
http://www.mightymac.org/07americanroyalBBQ.htm

butts a fire
10-19-2007, 07:38 AM
That is an interesting commentary. I thought it was very intersting that he even thought that the judging was almost unfair and very subjective. I am surprised that he didn't talk about how good the que was though.

Sledneck
10-19-2007, 07:55 AM
I thought the same thing. Why would you make up this whole page and not discuss what you ate?

QN
10-19-2007, 08:09 AM
I thought the same thing. Why would you make up this whole page and not discuss what you ate?

from the article "...and I came home with two 1 quart bags full of BBQ."

cmcadams
10-19-2007, 12:24 PM
QN, that got me, too. I really wish they'd rule that judge's are not permitted to take food from the judging area. There's plenty of barbecue they can get from teams if they ask, after judging is over.

Jeff_in_KC
10-19-2007, 09:41 PM
This was posted at another place too. Damned judges! Don't EVEN mention the food but talk about taking home a half gallon of food. Damn it, KCBS, ban this chit! :mad: While his motives don't seem to be to take home food, there's no way he could have collected that much food and still took a fair sampling of the cook's meat he was presented.

bbqbull
10-19-2007, 10:59 PM
Not to slam the KCBS here but.................guess thats why I havent renewed my membership. Maybe growing pains, not sure but I read this so called judges perspective on judging. More interested in getting leftovers to take home.
Hell maybe he cannot cook. But that seemed to be his justification for being a judge. Just plain wrong IMHO.

Hell I can do decent Q, but have no aspiratations to become a judge. Sure as hell dont want to load up quart bags and haul home.

There are some problems that must be ironed out soon. If not the association might be in a pickle. There might be another newly formed group that might come along and make things proper. I dont know, but I sure dont like things the way they are.

Sawdustguy
10-20-2007, 04:40 AM
Not to slam the KCBS here but.................guess thats why I havent renewed my membership. Maybe growing pains, not sure but I read this so called judges perspective on judging. More interested in getting leftovers to take home.
Hell maybe he cannot cook. But that seemed to be his justification for being a judge. Just plain wrong IMHO.

Hell I can do decent Q, but have no aspiratations to become a judge. Sure as hell dont want to load up quart bags and haul home.

There are some problems that must be ironed out soon. If not the association might be in a pickle. There might be another newly formed group that might come along and make things proper. I dont know, but I sure dont like things the way they are.

This sounds like a real cop out for not re-joining the KCBS. The writer never said he was judging for the left over BBQ. As a matter of fact I have never heard any of the better teams that win all the time complain about the judges getting to take home food. The writer's point saying that it's not fair because the judging is subjective is the part that that some teams can't handle. They can't handle the thought that someone may not think their Que is as good as their neighnors or their relatives think. Some teams really can't grasp the concept that judges are Humans with different likes and dislikes. The KCBS has nothing to do with that.

smoke-n-my-i's
10-20-2007, 06:09 AM
The way I read that article, he is only their for the food.

Does anyone know if he has ever been on the other side with us?

Does he know what it takes to make that "Q" for him to taste and take home? Like some of us staying up all night tending the fire, etc. I bet he is asleep all night every night and doesn't even have a clue.

I think it should mandatory that EVERY judge has to be with a team at least 6 comps before they are allowed to judge. Maybe not the same team every time, but at least 6 events. And not sleep all night, be there and see what goes on, do what needs to be done.

They would have a different perspective on true "Q".

Again, my $0.01 worth.

The_Kapn
10-20-2007, 06:52 AM
I have been trying for a long time to figure out what a judge gains by cooking with a team.
Is it so that they will "appreciate" the effort and expense by the teams and score higher?
Those would seem to be "pity points" if given for any reason other than the quality of the entry.
That flies in the face of "objectivity" on the part of a judge.
The effort and the expense have absolutely no bearing on the score given to an entry.

Now, I can think of one way to help out "Non cook" judges.
Allow any judge who is not judging at an event to sample meat from several teams just after the team does turn-in for a category. Not a whole new presentation, but a sample of the turned in meat.
They could complete their own little scoring record and then go back later to compare what they would have given with the reality of the scores actually given by their peers in the tent.
This would allow more samples and not just one sample from the team they happen to be cooking with.

That would help, but cooking with a team has no MAJOR benefit that I can identify.

I cook and judge. I "learn" more usable information for our cooking from the judging than I ever did for the reverse.

Am I missing something?

TIM

smoke-n-my-i's
10-20-2007, 07:04 AM
Kap,

I haven't taken a judging class nor can I. I am allergic to pork, so it would be some what of a waste of my time and money. Maybe I should though.

From my take, for what it is worth, there is a lot of controversy on this issue as well.

Here is my take on it. Correct me if I am wrong, please. I will use the term he only for simplicity knowing there are a lot of women also judging.

If a person takes the class, and passes. He can now judge.

If the "judge" loves boiled and dipped "Q", but not the true low and slow "Q", how will he score it?

How does he really know what a true "6" is?

Will he score true smoked, let's say, ribs lower because there is smoke flavor?

Will he score pulled pork lower because he doesn't like vinegar on his?

And the list goes on. I know they are not suppose to, but in my honest opinion, I believe there is some of personal "tastes" used to score "Q".

I know there is going to be an extremely hard way to make a "6" style "Q" at judging classes, but how does one know for sure when and where to go from there.

I still think if they have to "cook" with a team some, they would appreciate what is going on. And this would give the true non-"Q" knowledgeable person some insight.

Like I said, I hope my opinion is a little clearer now.

Bill

ModelMaker
10-20-2007, 10:22 AM
Keep at it kids, pretty soon you'll piss an moan about judges and wether or not there there for free food or not and like me you'll start to loose the desire.
And you can all be judged by some guy that happened to walk by when the rep is lookin to fill seats.
Good luck with that.
ModelMaker

The Giggler
10-20-2007, 05:04 PM
I agree with the Kap'n. There's no practical reason for a mandatory comp cook to be qualified as a judge. Even though there's a lot of behind the scenes action that many are unaware of.

Here's something to consider: KCBS is a growing organization. The more people who take the class and become certified, the more qualified people we have sitting at the tables. The higher and more costly barrier to become certified, the less people there will be willing to make the investment in time and money.

I think its funny how the judges get blamed all the time. When my wife and I became KCBC CBJs, we were there only to learn the criteria. At the end of the class, we were told that ONE person prepared all the entries, and they were all the same. WOW! The numbers were all over the place?!?!

From that moment forward, I realized that there is a framework in place, but in the end it is very subjective to what that person thinks when that piece of meat is in their mouth. Our focus really became centered around OUR performance, and doing the best that WE can. That way, there's nothing to feel bad about in the end. Scores be damned.

I believe that the KCBS Double Blind Judging is the most fair and reliable method of judging today. Not to say its perfect either, but I trust it completely.

Recently, there was some friction on my team regarding our performance at a contest. We didn't get any calls, and after getting the score sheet, some of my teammates began mother farking the judges. I told them to cool it. We all tasted and agreed on the turn ins. We all had confidence in our choices. The judges didn't feel the same way, and thats okay. We had a good time, and as always learned some things.

I think that the teams who stand on the top of the podium consistently, know exactly how to COOK their entries from start to finish, and can do it no matter the weather, alignment of stars, or level of intoxication. Which shifts the responsibility back to the cooks.

I've seen a couple teams win many times. Their entries aren't being judged by the same judges, who's to say which judge is certified, and which is not. See what I mean? The Top teams know their stuff, and they are consistent.

Anyone who doesn't have faith in any competitive rule book, shouldn't be involved. Period.

The article was a little lackluster. No mention of the entries was diappointing. Maybe he wasn't comfortable sharing his thoughts on what was judged, or maybe he thought that this information was proprietary. Who knows, we'll just have to speculate.

The_Kapn
10-20-2007, 05:22 PM
Keep at it kids, pretty soon you'll piss an moan about judges and wether or not there there for free food or not and like me you'll start to loose the desire.
And you can all be judged by some guy that happened to walk by when the rep is lookin to fill seats.
Good luck with that.
ModelMaker

Well said, and the Giggler made great points also!

The reality is that there are lots of folks with no "Ill-Will" trying their best to render scores.
Is it perfect, NO!

But, it is all we have.

In my limited Judging experience with FBA and KCBS, I have only encountered ONE judge who was not trying to be fair, at least in their mind. She had an addiction to sauce, and lots of it! The more, the better!
But, she has been "uninvited" to judge now, to the best of my knowledge.

The other underlying argument is the "coolers".
I do not give a damn about that! Period, end of discussion for me.
Some cooks feel that the leftovers are the reason for judging---SO WHAT!
As long as the Judge renders well though out scores--who cares :lol:

Keep on hammering--Judges will go away.

TIM

willkat98
10-20-2007, 05:33 PM
That would help, but cooking with a team has no MAJOR benefit that I can identify.



The KCBS agrees with you Tim.

Just read in the October issue that the requirement to cook on a team has been removed for Master Judge certification.

I also can't see what would be gained, other than possible pity points as you mentioned.

GordonsBackyardBBQ
10-20-2007, 07:17 PM
I also heard when it came to chicken, some tables got 7 entries while other tables got none and it was complete chaos. Dont know what happened with the rest of the meats but this writer also mentioned 7 entries for ribs so it doesnt surprise me. When I look at my Open scores I cant help but wonder what went on during judging.:roll:

GordonsBackyardBBQ
10-20-2007, 07:23 PM
I also found it odd that both the Invitational & the Open were NOT blind judging. Funny I havent heard to much from teams on that.

eurycea
10-20-2007, 08:25 PM
The KCBS agrees with you Tim.

Just read in the October issue that the requirement to cook on a team has been removed for Master Judge certification.



I believe it said you still have to cook with a team to become a Master Judge, you just don't have to keep cooking with a team to maintain your Master Judge status. The rules used to be you had to cook with a team every 2 years - I think that is what they changed.

Pig Headed
10-21-2007, 07:01 AM
Well said, and the Giggler made great points also!

The reality is that there are lots of folks with no "Ill-Will" trying their best to render scores.
Is it perfect, NO!

But, it is all we have.

In my limited Judging experience with FBA and KCBS, I have only encountered ONE judge who was not trying to be fair, at least in their mind. She had an addiction to sauce, and lots of it! The more, the better!
But, she has been "uninvited" to judge now, to the best of my knowledge.

The other underlying argument is the "coolers".
I do not give a damn about that! Period, end of discussion for me.
Some cooks feel that the leftovers are the reason for judging---SO WHAT!
As long as the Judge renders well though out scores--who cares :lol:

Keep on hammering--Judges will go away.

TIM

Tim, I couldn't agree more. Who cares if the judges take home the partially eaten food. What, is someone else waiting for it? It would only be thrown away anyway. As far as the arguement that the judges wont eat enough to give a fair assesment, I think that's impossible, You coulnd't eat all the entires if you tried. I've only judged 3 events and I'm a big boy, but I could only take 2 bites from each entry in order to finish tasting all 24 minimum entries.

While there may be a few judges there only to take food home, I think that the majority are there for satisfaction of trying to fairly judge an event. I think they deserve the left over entries if they want them. I've always been taught that it's a sin to waste and throwing away the food is a waste.

Jeff_in_KC
10-21-2007, 11:20 AM
Keep at it kids, pretty soon you'll piss an moan about judges and wether or not there there for free food or not and like me you'll start to loose the desire.
And you can all be judged by some guy that happened to walk by when the rep is lookin to fill seats.
Good luck with that.
ModelMaker


So we should what? Ignore a problem and hope it resolves itself?

Jeff_in_KC
10-21-2007, 11:21 AM
I also can't see what would be gained, other than possible pity points as you mentioned.

Not pity points but to let judges realize there is a seriousness to all of this to cooks. To realize that they need to take it as seriously as cooks do.

Jeff_in_KC
10-21-2007, 11:28 AM
Tim, I couldn't agree more. Who cares if the judges take home the partially eaten food. What, is someone else waiting for it? It would only be thrown away anyway. As far as the arguement that the judges wont eat enough to give a fair assesment, I think that's impossible, You coulnd't eat all the entires if you tried. I've only judged 3 events and I'm a big boy, but I could only take 2 bites from each entry in order to finish tasting all 24 minimum entries.

While there may be a few judges there only to take food home, I think that the majority are there for satisfaction of trying to fairly judge an event. I think they deserve the left over entries if they want them. I've always been taught that it's a sin to waste and throwing away the food is a waste.


First off, do you realize what some judges are doing? They're taking such small nibbles off their samples that there's no way they can fairly judge the meats. I got this directly from Ed Roith last year in the parking lot of the KCBS office. He's busted many people doing this. So why only nibble on it? So you can take home pretty much un-eaten pieces of meat while the juding process becomes a farce.

Secondly, the judges know what they have to do when they sign on. Nothing says they "deserve" to take home leftovers. The meat does not BELONG to them. Now if a contest wants to allow judges to come take meat from the de-constructed boxes and to ask teams to bring up extras for the volunteer table (judges are basically volunteers too), fine. Take all you want. Oh and throwing away a little bit of food leftover is not a waste OR a sin.

Pig Headed
10-21-2007, 11:45 AM
So, Jeff can we agree to respectfully disagree on this subject? That's what makes this forum great. While we sometimes disagree with other members on one topic, it doesn't mean we can't get along .

Jeff_in_KC
10-21-2007, 12:10 PM
So, Jeff can we agree to respectfully disagree on this subject? That's what makes this forum great. While we sometimes disagree with other members on one topic, it doesn't mean we can't get along .


Absolutely. :wink:

GordonsBackyardBBQ
10-21-2007, 01:42 PM
Not pity points but to let judges realize there is a seriousness to all of this to cooks. To realize that they need to take it as seriously as cooks do.

This is my one and only point. It is to be taken seriously. I dont drive all those miles and spend the money for some "BBQ Party". Its to compete while having some fun.

2Fat
10-21-2007, 06:09 PM
Not pity points but to let judges realize there is a seriousness to all of this to cooks. To realize that they need to take it as seriously as cooks do.


Think lots of judges do take it as seriously as the cooks--they also invest a good chunk of change to judge. Tired of cooking so went to judge a contest this weekend--466miles round trip and a motel--lots of folks do make the same choices--but it does piss my off when sitting next to a Master Judge and she barely takes a nibble of any thing on her plate! And I did say something to her

Ulcer Acres
10-21-2007, 06:20 PM
A couple of weeks ago I had two judges going for there master judge cook with Marla and I. It was a big eye opening for them. They knew we spent alot of time working on stuff, but they has no idea what all went into. The other thing is they could not get over the friendship that is out there amongst cook. They showed up at 8:30 am on Friday and stayed till 11:00 pm on saturday. Came back Saturday morning at 6:00 am and stayed until after awards and then did a little debriefing. One thing that amazed me is they had never seen the print out that cooks get for score sheets. It was a good experience for them and us. I thought it was a very good idea and enjoyed it.

Jeff_in_KC
10-21-2007, 06:36 PM
Think lots of judges do take it as seriously as the cooks--they also invest a good chunk of change to judge. Tired of cooking so went to judge a contest this weekend--466miles round trip and a motel--lots of folks do make the same choices--but it does piss my off when sitting next to a Master Judge and she barely takes a nibble of any thing on her plate! And I did say something to her

Maybe in Wisconsin, judges have to drive a long ways. Around Kansas and Missouri, not only do most teams not have to drive far to compete in as many contests as they want, likewise, most judges can be to the contest, finish judging and back home in less than six hours. There's no chunk of change required here.

GordonsBackyardBBQ
10-21-2007, 06:37 PM
Think lots of judges do take it as seriously as the cooks--they also invest a good chunk of change to judge. Tired of cooking so went to judge a contest this weekend--466miles round trip and a motel--lots of folks do make the same choices--but it does piss my off when sitting next to a Master Judge and she barely takes a nibble of any thing on her plate! And I did say something to her

Ive done the same when judging...Glad you said something...

GordonsBackyardBBQ
10-21-2007, 06:42 PM
A couple of weeks ago I had two judges going for there master judge cook with Marla and I. It was a big eye opening for them. They knew we spent alot of time working on stuff, but they has no idea what all went into. The other thing is they could not get over the friendship that is out there amongst cook. They showed up at 8:30 am on Friday and stayed till 11:00 pm on saturday. Came back Saturday morning at 6:00 am and stayed until after awards and then did a little debriefing. One thing that amazed me is they had never seen the print out that cooks get for score sheets. It was a good experience for them and us. I thought it was a very good idea and enjoyed it.


Amazing!!!!!!

Never had seen a print out? Now thats truly amazing... I bet that is more common than we think. I know in the "class" they didnt show one.

I think its a good thing that they see it if nothing else than to understand the process...

GordonsBackyardBBQ
10-21-2007, 06:44 PM
Maybe in Wisconsin, judges have to drive a long ways. Around Kansas and Missouri, not only do most teams not have to drive far to compete in as many contests as they want, likewise, most judges can be to the contest, finish judging and back home in less than six hours. There's no chunk of change required here.

So very true. I sure am envious of all the contests you guys have. hell even within 1000 miles. Thats usually a minimum for us out west

cmcadams
10-22-2007, 03:34 PM
I'm with Jeff; judges cooking once isn't for pity points but for perspective. Just as I think it's good for a cook to judge.

I've just seen judges with a very high opinion of what they're doing, as though it couldn't be done without them. That's true on one level, but even without judges, there would be barbecue.

And I'm sorry, but driving and staying in a hotel isn't the same as buying equipment, driving with the equipment in tow, paying entry fees, buying meat, staying up all night, etc... The work of judging is minimal.. sit on your butt and eat. I've done it, I know it's not as tough as cooking.

I don't think judges take it less seriously than they should... Some just should take themselves less seriously.

motoeric
10-22-2007, 05:03 PM
I don't think judges take it less seriously than they should... Some just should take themselves less seriously.

Wow. From my limited experience that is at least as true for teams as it is for judges.

I would venture to guess that the ratio of judges who 'conserve' sampled food at the expense of giving an accurate portrayal of what is being tasted is the same as to teams that are willing to cut corners and skirt legalities when competing.

The outlay, effort and expenses of judges are considerably less onerous than those for teams. No one would ever debate that. But that is completely irrelevant. They are performing separate functions of their own volition.

Anecdotal evidence of a particularly egregious incident is not indicative of a larger, widespread problem. This is not meant to invalidate the concerns of the teams. There should be some formal function where Event Organizers and sanctioning body reps could list complaints about judges and where judges could be placed on a 'watch list' or banned from participating.

But it seems that there is a propensity here to paint with a very wide brush. In general I believe that judges should be praised and I very rarely see that here.

Although the effort is not commensurate amongst all parties, any cook-off needs an organizer, competitors and judges. If any of the three are missing, the event is going to fail.

Thanks for reading!


Eric

The_Kapn
10-22-2007, 07:10 PM
Wow.


But it seems that there is a propensity here to paint with a very wide brush. In general I believe that judges should be praised and I very rarely see that here.

Although the effort is not commensurate amongst all parties, any cook-off needs an organizer, competitors and judges. If any of the three are missing, the event is going to fail.

Thanks for reading!

Eric

You are so right Eric.
We used to be different here, but the Internet is a great "leveling force" for opinions.
So, "Judge Bashing" and all of the negative stuff has become more the norm here, just like in all the other forums.

Just the way it is on the "WWW".

TIM

2Fat
10-22-2007, 07:15 PM
I'm with Jeff; judges cooking once isn't for pity points but for perspective. Just as I think it's good for a cook to judge. .

And I'm sorry, but driving and staying in a hotel isn't the same as buying equipment, driving with the equipment in tow, paying entry fees, buying meat, staying up all night, etc... The work of judging is minimal.. sit on your butt and eat. I've done it, I know it's not as tough as cooking..

you are right--judging isn't as tough as cooking for sure!! But both sides are volunteers! When I volunteer to cook usually plan on spending maybe 600bucks+++ to do a contest--and of course that isn't figgering the 'cost' of the cookers, 20' trailer and newer diesel truck<sf>--
Judges volunteer for pretty much a thankless job--unless of course you get your name called lots of times! Lots of time it seems that judges get blamed for that one bad rib we decided to turnin or maybe a couple those thighs just weren't as good as the other four!

Case in point--at the AR open pork catagory--after throwing out the bottom score our scores were 888 999 999 999 996--my very first thought after seeing those scores is that I F^^%ded the pooch in putting the pork in the box--musta left one not so good pc there!

It takes cooks, judges and those that work so hard on putting the contests together to make this all work

the whiskey is starting to wear off--so it must be time to say see ya

Buzz

Coz
10-22-2007, 07:30 PM
you are right--judging isn't as tough as cooking for sure!! But both sides are volunteers! When I volunteer to cook usually plan on spending maybe 600bucks+++ to do a contest--and of course that isn't figgering the 'cost' of the cookers, 20' trailer and newer diesel truck<sf>--
Judges volunteer for pretty much a thankless job--unless of course you get your name called lots of times! Lots of time it seems that judges get blamed for that one bad rib we decided to turnin or maybe a couple those thighs just weren't as good as the other four!

Case in point--at the AR open pork catagory--after throwing out the bottom score our scores were 888 999 999 999 996--my very first thought after seeing those scores is that I F^^%ded the pooch in putting the pork in the box--musta left one not so good pc there!

It takes cooks, judges and those that work so hard on putting the contests together to make this all work

the whiskey is starting to wear off--so it must be time to say see ya

Buzz
All of this and still finds time to put up with dumb questions from newbies like me stumbling around his cook area.I am still amazed that with all the expense and time that the winning teams put in that they will take time to talk with people that are wanting to compete and then after a long summer of week after week comps they VOLUNTEER to judge at a contest hours from home.From what I have read the contest at Lambs must have had as many of the areas top competitors judging as cooking.

therese
10-22-2007, 07:38 PM
I am a serious, thoughtful, and compassionate judge with a great lifelong passion for barbecue. I think and taste carefully, aware of the love and hard work put into each entry. I don't like to give low scores and very rarely do so. I make use of the KCBS comment cards when made available and phrase my comments positively, beginning with what went well.
In the years that I have been judging, I have enjoyed the company of other thoughtful judges, all serious, all passionate about 'cue. Some of them have been cooks.
I continue to be puzzled by the cooks vs. judges talk. I too have heard the apocrophal stories about judges that grab and run, but I have yet to see one. I have been offered samples from teams after the competition is over, but, really, I am too polite to say what I really think. Judging is best done inside the tent.
There is little mystery to judging. While taste is subjective, all judges at a table tend to agree on what is best. And what is too salty, and what is undercooked. And what is absolutely delicious.
One should not have to cook to judge. An oncologist does not have to have cancer herself in order to treat it. Really, I would love to cook, but I can't. Geography limits me--I live on the twelfth floor. But I can taste, think, judge, and write. There is no one right way to develop a discerning barbecue palette.
Here's to our shared passion!

cmcadams
10-22-2007, 07:57 PM
I don't think the 'complaints' are about every judge or even half the judges, maybe 10%. If we were all against judges, we wouldn't compete.

I agree some teams take themselves too seriously, but that's very few. Same with judges, probably.

I disagree that teams are volunteers; they're in it to try to win something; that's not volunteering.

I also disagree that judges should be praised. There's only one that I praise, and it's not a barbecue judge (though He loves barbecue!). I may thank judges for their time, but I'm not going to put them on a pedestal; their job just isn't that tough, in my opinion (which I'm allowed to have, by the way, being a pretty intelligent person that's seen both sides).

But the thing is, I'm not bashing anything about judges, just that certain things are allowed, and that some things could be improved.

motoeric
10-22-2007, 08:37 PM
I also disagree that judges should be praised. There's only one that I praise, and it's not a barbecue judge (though He loves barbecue!). I may thank judges for their time, but I'm not going to put them on a pedestal; their job just isn't that tough, in my opinion (which I'm allowed to have, by the way, being a pretty intelligent person that's seen both sides).


Do you think that teams should be praised? And I totally don't get your parenthetical comment. Were you thinking that anyone was under the opinion that you WEREN'T allowed? Opinions are are the currency of dialog. Of course you are entitled to yours, just as I'm entitled to mine.

I certainly think that judges often deserve praise. As a group I believe that they deserve praise a lot more often than condemnation.

Consider the experienced judge that takes the time out to help someone that is new? What about the judge that drives hundreds of miles and stays in a hotel so that they can help out at an event that is a charitable fundraiser? How about judges who sit through rainstorms, or are surrounded by snow or amidst swarms of flies? Not praiseworthy?

Eric

cmcadams
10-22-2007, 08:58 PM
Do you think that teams should be praised? And I totally don't get your parenthetical comment. Were you thinking that anyone was under the opinion that you WEREN'T allowed? Opinions are are the currency of dialog. Of course you are entitled to yours, just as I'm entitled to mine.

I certainly think that judges often deserve praise. As a group I believe that they deserve praise a lot more often than condemnation.

Consider the experienced judge that takes the time out to help someone that is new? What about the judge that drives hundreds of miles and stays in a hotel so that they can help out at an event that is a charitable fundraiser? How about judges who sit through rainstorms, or are surrounded by snow or amidst swarms of flies? Not praiseworthy?

Eric

The parenthetical comment had to do with the fact that only one I praise is God, not people.

And no, teams should not be praised. Judges should not be praised. Thanked and commended, sometimes. They also choose to drive hundreds of miles; they're not generally, from what I've seen, asked to do so. I've talked to some that do it as kind of a road trip vacation. Others do it to brag about how far they've gone.

Jeff_in_KC
10-22-2007, 10:09 PM
Exactly what are the awards if they aren't basically "praise" for jobs well done? I see teams winning awards getting praised by their peers all the time and deservedly so. In contrast, I've never heard a person tell a judge "Awesome job on tasting that BBQ and scoring it 787!"

Eric, around here, most contest judge areas are inside a building with A/C in the summer and very few flies. Most don't drive 100 miles even round trip because there are so many events in this region. So sitting through rain storms and snow doesn't draw my praise when I was cooped up in a 10x10 canopy with a grill, half a Spicewine, three tables and my wife for hours a couple of weeks ago, all the while trying to keep all of our equipment dry, from blowing away or being floated away by the run-off from the driving rain storm.

MilitantSquatter
10-22-2007, 10:28 PM
Regardless of your feelings toward judges, without them you would not have the need to be cooped up under those less than ideal conditions Jeff described.

Judges don't get complimented, you are right. However, several times I've spoken with judges after events, and in general asked them what they thought and always thanked them for their participation knowing they may have not tried my entries or scored highly. Maybe if more teams went out of their way to say a quick thanks to the judges, they would better understand that their opinions do count to many out there and may make a difference.


I can no longer understand why this topic and similar ones get beaten to death. It's quite simple. Without either side, there in no contest. It will never be perfect. More often then not there are decent judges than bad ones (just like people in general) just like there are many decent cooks compared to crappy ones that the judges are requested to taste.

If a competitor doesn't like the system, there are options like stop competing, compete elsewhere, begin judging more than competing, work to become involved to change the rules, qualifications, perceptions etc.


Sawdustguy made some very good points in post #8 and I agree with him..
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=483186&postcount=8

Jeff_in_KC
10-22-2007, 10:39 PM
I can no longer understand why this topic and similar ones get beaten to death. It's quite simple. Without either side, there in no contest. It will never be perfect.

There are, however, ways to make it a bit closer to perfect than it currently is and that's where the debate comes in and why it gets "beaten to death". I understand that bad judges are a large minority but it only takes one judge to screw up a contest for a team.

motoeric
10-22-2007, 10:40 PM
So sitting through rain storms and snow doesn't draw my praise when I was cooped up in a 10x10 canopy with a grill...

I'm really not trying to pick a fight here, but from my perspective whether or not something or someone is praiseworthy or not is independent from my personal travails.

I'm not going to refrain from going to Willie 'hey, great job this weekend. Everything turned out well. You should be proud' because I was also involved in the running of the event.

I'm not going to refrain from complimenting someone or thanking them because I had it worse than they did. If objectively they did something well under difficult circumstances, they deserve praise or compliments.

Eric

Jeff_in_KC
10-22-2007, 10:45 PM
I'm really not trying to pick a fight here, but from my perspective whether or not something or someone is praiseworthy or not is independent from my personal travails.

I'm not going to refrain from going to Willie 'hey, great job this weekend. Everything turned out well. You should be proud' because I was also involved in the running of the event.

I'm not going to refrain from complimenting someone or thanking them because I had it worse than they did. If objectively they did something well under difficult circumstances, they deserve praise or compliments.

Eric

Not trying to pick a fight here either but YOU were the one who brought tough conditions into this equation:

What about the judge that drives hundreds of miles and stays in a hotel so that they can help out at an event that is a charitable fundraiser? How about judges who sit through rainstorms, or are surrounded by snow or amidst swarms of flies? Not praiseworthy?


I simply responded to the question with a similar situation on the opposite side of the judging area walls.

KC_Bobby
10-22-2007, 10:52 PM
I've judged once and it kind of left a bad taste in my mouth as a competition cook. Not literally, most of the food was good.

But after it took me countless calls to the contest organizer to see if he needed me to judge, they were still short judges come 11:00 that morning and they basically asked if any of us knew of any warm bodies that would be willing to judge. :mad::mad:

So while the circus of trying to find about 6 more judges was going on, I just sat there wondering if this happens at every contest. By the time they got enough judges - wait, people to judge - it was after 11:30 and they gave all the late arrivals about a 5 minute overview of KCBS judging.

Thankfully the KCBS rep did seperate these fill ins as well as seperate the KCBS certified judges. I think it was about 2-3 certified and 3-4 non-certified per table.

Since that judging I've contacted two other comps to see if they needed judges and they told me they were full. Which I have no issue with, but as a competitor, I'd like to see that anytime a certified judge and/or fellow competition cook volunteers to judge that they get in and bump out a non-certified newbie judge. Yeah, kinda sucks for the newbie but I would think that nearly all cooks would agree they'd rather have a CBJ judge then the guy from Average Joe's Gym and each competition owes it to each team to provide as many CBJ's and other qualified judges as possible.

I'm not claiming to be a great judge NOR does just taking the CBJ course guarantee a good judge either. BUT, generally speaking I think the person who took the CBJ class and/or cooks on a comp team is better qualified to judge then someone who comes along to judge because they are neighbors of judge #3 at table 4.

If nothing else, let the teams know the number of CBJ's and first time judges an hour prior to turn in so we know to turn it in with super heavy sauce or not. :mrgreen:

timzcardz
10-22-2007, 11:49 PM
BUT, generally speaking I think the person who took the CBJ class and/or cooks on a comp team is better qualified to judge then someone who comes along to judge because they are neighbors of judge #3 at table 4.



Generally speaking, I think that most would agree, BUT, isn't there a long term reason to have the neighbor of Judge #3 at table 4 as a potential candidate to become a CBJ?

The neighbor has obviously shown some interest to actually be there, shouldn't that interest be fostered for the future of BBQ competition?

The Pickled Pig
10-23-2007, 12:17 AM
Statistically speaking, KCBS judging is very consistent. Those that know me also know I run a BBQ power rankings site and I analyze the stats from almost every KCBS contest. There are teams that consistently win regardless of region. If the judging wasn't consistent, this would not be possible. I can't say that the judging is fair or right, but I can mathematically state that it is consistent. The consistency does diminish as the number of entries being judged increases but that should be expected.

Like cooks, judges are replaceable and neither appear to be in short supply. If either feels slighted they can choose not to participate (and save a bunch of money and time in the process). The KCBS has been growing by leaps and bounds both in the number of contests and the number of participants in each contest.

Our sport is evolving and we cooks need to embrace the state of change. There is no possible way to judge 40, 50, 75, or 100+ team entries in a category perfectly. Unless the same judges judge every entry at every contest, we'll never get a perfect system. And even if that were theoretically possible, we'd find a way to biatch about it.

The current system works. If 2 judges out of 6 don't like your Q, then you should probably take note. Change what you're doing so that 5 out of 6 like it. If anything, KCBS should add a 7th judge to each table and throw out the highest score along with the lowest score.

I appreciate the judges at each contest like I do my fellow competitors and the folks that put the contest on. It takes judges, cooks, and organizers to make this thing work. Each fulfills a critical role. The market will determine if and when any of the constituents is being unfairly treated.

If cooks are worried about judges taking food home, why not set up a table where teams can donate leftovers and restrict judges from removing food from the judges tent? If a minimum of 6 portions is required why not make it a maximum of 6 portions so there are no left-overs?

motoeric
10-23-2007, 01:00 AM
Just to throw something else into the mix, if the event we ran this weekend is any indication, there is NO WAY to determine how many judges you will need for an event.

Between 35 and 40% of the judges that were supposed to be at the event this weekend didn't show up. Oddly, most of the no shows were cbj's. So if I'm running an event again and a non-cbj is on the list and a cbj that didn't show last time signs up they will not be bumping the non-cbj from the list.

Eric

Jeff_in_KC
10-23-2007, 06:43 AM
Just to throw something else into the mix, if the event we ran this weekend is any indication, there is NO WAY to determine how many judges you will need for an event.

Between 35 and 40% of the judges that were supposed to be at the event this weekend didn't show up. Oddly, most of the no shows were cbj's. So if I'm running an event again and a non-cbj is on the list and a cbj that didn't show last time signs up they will not be bumping the non-cbj from the list.

Eric

How often were the judges who signed up kept in contact with? Did they sign up months ago and then didn't hear from anyone for the entire time until contest time got near? I'm not criticizing here if that's the case. It's just human nature. If you don't have cash involved as teams do, sometimes it's going to require a little "marketing" to keep them interested and your contest at the forefront of their minds. We have several judges for next April already signed up. I plan to send something, even if it's email, every month or two as an update about what's going on with our event to keep their interest up.

LindaM
10-23-2007, 07:31 AM
The no shows are presenting more and more of a problem. Here on the East Coast we have judges sign up for a contest, then the day of the event 40% no show. Any organizer I deal with I tell them accept all the judges who sign up. We will find something for them to do if they can't sit. Eric can attest to that. And by the way we always sit CBJ's first. We feel it is very important to have qualified judges, prior to any contest any non CBJ's are given a CRASH course on judging, and I can only say this past weekend of the 6 Non CBJ's seated 5 were as consistant as the rest of their table. Again you always get that one but that is why the low scores are dropped.

Maybe some sort of refundable monetary deposit should be instituted to assure CBJ's will show. JMHO

Linda

Sledneck
10-23-2007, 07:33 AM
Maybe some sort of refundable monetary deposit should be instituted to assure CBJ's will show. JMHO

Linda
That is a great idea!!!! I would do that. Either the money of the no shows go to KCBS or to a charity

LindaM
10-23-2007, 07:37 AM
Charity for sure. No KCBS involvement at all

Sledneck
10-23-2007, 07:50 AM
Ithink your on to something, can this be proposed? petitioned? I dont know how the process works or if their is one. Even if it was optional to an organizer per event.

LindaM
10-23-2007, 07:57 AM
Send me your emails, at the next board meeting I will present it.

LMullane at KCBS dot com.

Thanks

Roo-B-Q'N
10-23-2007, 08:18 AM
How often were the judges who signed up kept in contact with? Did they sign up months ago and then didn't hear from anyone for the entire time until contest time got near? I'm not criticizing here if that's the case. It's just human nature. If you don't have cash involved as teams do, sometimes it's going to require a little "marketing" to keep them interested and your contest at the forefront of their minds. We have several judges for next April already signed up. I plan to send something, even if it's email, every month or two as an update about what's going on with our event to keep their interest up.

We did a contest that had 100% CBJ's and 10 in waiting. Day of 4 didn't show up at all even after several contacts before the event. One was three weeks before asking if they would still honor their commitment and the second was with the CBJ packet sent out a week before the contest. One judge actually called and said she would be there after they played the tape because she was running late. We told her to sign up for next year and we would see here then. Good luck with your contest Jeff.

The no shows are presenting more and more of a problem. Here on the East Coast we have judges sign up for a contest, then the day of the event 40% no show. Any organizer I deal with I tell them accept all the judges who sign up. We will find something for them to do if they can't sit. Eric can attest to that. And by the way we always sit CBJ's first. We feel it is very important to have qualified judges, prior to any contest any non CBJ's are given a CRASH course on judging, and I can only say this past weekend of the 6 Non CBJ's seated 5 were as consistant as the rest of their table. Again you always get that one but that is why the low scores are dropped.

Maybe some sort of refundable monetary deposit should be instituted to assure CBJ's will show. JMHO

Linda

Doesn't take much to place a stop payment on a check or if you do actually cash the check to prevent this what a nightmare for the organizer to spend the extra time after the contest to write refund checks.
If Nebraska can come up with 40 plus CBJ's for a contest with 30 teams (I think we only have 5 contests a year) than locations like KC should have no problems filling the judges rosters. More CBJ classes are needed and more CBJ instructors are needed as well.

KC_Bobby
10-23-2007, 08:23 AM
How often were the judges who signed up kept in contact with? Did they sign up months ago and then didn't hear from anyone for the entire time until contest time got near? I'm not criticizing here if that's the case. It's just human nature. If you don't have cash involved as teams do, sometimes it's going to require a little "marketing" to keep them interested and your contest at the forefront of their minds. We have several judges for next April already signed up. I plan to send something, even if it's email, every month or two as an update about what's going on with our event to keep their interest up.

Exactly, a quick note from time to time with updates and confirming that they are still wanted and needed is great - and it can be a mass email to all of the volunteers and judges - just blind carbon them so the entire world doesn't get their email address.

As a direct and web marketer, I'd send one a few weeks after the holiday season has passed. Remind them after all the hysteria is over. Follow up again around President's Day with an update, buy then I would think you'd have many of the logistics figured out. Right after St. Pat's Day would be another good time for an update, including the number of teams and recent additions to the activities, and if you need more judges at that point mention that you are looking for more CBJ's (depending on how you want to handle that). Then the week prior to the contest send them a friendly reminder email.

KC_Bobby
10-23-2007, 08:31 AM
Doesn't take much to place a stop payment on a check or if you do actually cash the check to prevent this what a nightmare for the organizer to spend the extra time after the contest to write refund checks.

True, but I think it would help cut down on the number of no shows. Sounds like something that's at least worth a try. Plus if someone's willing to provide a deposit, it indicates to me that they are serious about the judging responsibilies, not just their to hord ribs.

Sledneck
10-23-2007, 08:41 AM
Doesn't take much to place a stop payment on a check or if you do actually cash the check to prevent this what a nightmare for the organizer to spend the extra time after the contest to write refund checks.
.
No reason to be writing refunds day of. All of the money is collected then put into an account. It cashed out. People who show get their money back in cash . People who dont show it then goes straight to charity. Give the judges who do show the option of collecting their money or donating to the same charity that the now shows are giving it to. AT the awards it is announced how much was donated and thank them all.

Roo-B-Q'N
10-23-2007, 08:57 AM
No reason to be writing refunds day of. All of the money is collected then put into an account. It cashed out. People who show get their money back in cash . People who dont show it then goes straight to charity. Give the judges who do show the option of collecting their money or donating to the same charity that the now shows are giving it to. AT the awards it is announced how much was donated and thank them all.

Don't get me wrong I am for anything to get people to keep to their commitments. I was just looking back at our contest and while there is a lot going on for all concerned at that time, I guess while checking in they could get their money back.

paydabill
10-23-2007, 11:10 AM
I swear I just was told this last weekend. A friend of my wife came to talk to me about the Royal. She had a friend that used to be a reporter at the KC star. She still has her credentials, and tried to use them become a judge.

Here is the kicker, she is a vergitarian (sp). I asked how was she going to judge without eating the meat? She said on smell and appearance. She was not joking!

Her friend tried to get in at the open. They were goign to let her in because of a last minute cancellations, but they needed table captains more than they needed actual judges, so she did not judge.

Made me sick. We tried to get a hold of her, because i was goign to give her a piece of my mind, but she was not home.

paydabill
10-23-2007, 11:14 AM
We did a contest that had 100% CBJ's and 10 in waiting. Day of 4 didn't show up at all even after several contacts before the event. One was three weeks before asking if they would still honor their commitment and the second was with the CBJ packet sent out a week before the contest. One judge actually called and said she would be there after they played the tape because she was running late. We told her to sign up for next year and we would see here then. Good luck with your contest Jeff.



Doesn't take much to place a stop payment on a check or if you do actually cash the check to prevent this what a nightmare for the organizer to spend the extra time after the contest to write refund checks.
If Nebraska can come up with 40 plus CBJ's for a contest with 30 teams (I think we only have 5 contests a year) than locations like KC should have no problems filling the judges rosters. More CBJ classes are needed and more CBJ instructors are needed as well.

I had to cancel at the Brain Injury one that Jamey and Aimee did 2 weeks ago. I really wanted to be there, but had a death in my family and had to travel to Decatur, Ill. I felt really bad, because it was short noitice.

I understand when things go ary, but I also feel sorry for people who were put on an alternate list and everyone shows up. I think organizers do the best they can, I appreciate the hard work they put in. I do judging so I can keep up with what is out there on presentations.

KC_Bobby
10-23-2007, 11:45 AM
I swear I just was told this last weekend. A friend of my wife came to talk to me about the Royal. She had a friend that used to be a reporter at the KC star. She still has her credentials, and tried to use them become a judge.

Here is the kicker, she is a vergitarian (sp). I asked how was she going to judge without eating the meat? She said on smell and appearance. She was not joking!

Her friend tried to get in at the open. They were goign to let her in because of a last minute cancellations, but they needed table captains more than they needed actual judges, so she did not judge.

Made me sick. We tried to get a hold of her, because i was goign to give her a piece of my mind, but she was not home.

That's hearsay. :biggrin: literally

That said, I think thoughts like these carry a punishment of cutting off the tongue in 47 of the 48 continential states.

Papa Hogg
10-23-2007, 11:46 AM
There are, however, ways to make it a bit closer to perfect than it currently is and that's where the debate comes in and why it gets "beaten to death". I understand that bad judges are a large minority but it only takes one judge to screw up a contest for a team.

I have not getten thru all the post yet, but I have to respond to this...It only takes 1 umpire to screw up a baseball game by calling a ball a strike that was really a ball.

Our sport needs judges & judges are going to have their own tastes & opinions & if you can't take the subjective nature of judging in our sport then quit competeing & if you decide to not quit competeing then at least quit your whining.

One of the comps I did this summer my ribs received 7, 8's & 9's for taste & one judge gave me a 5 which just kept me out of the top 10 & possible the top 5. Did I bash the judge or that score, no...I thought what the hell was wrong with the rib that the judge got...did it have an uneven amount of rub, did he get too much cayenne, or did he just not like the flavor profile I created???

KC_Bobby
10-23-2007, 11:52 AM
If all the ribs came off the same rack, I can't imagine it tasted different then the other five.

Regarding officials - at least we know they've been trained, provided a book regarding correct protocol, and tested (outside of teeball)

That said, respecting others tastes is needed

Papa Hogg
10-23-2007, 11:58 AM
If all the ribs came off the same rack, I can't imagine it tasted different then the other five.

My comment on officials - at least we know they've been trained provided a book regarding correct protocol, and tested(outside of teeball)

They didn't all come from the same rack, they came from 3 different racks & I chose the ones that were similar in size, color, ect...I tasted ribs from all 3 racks myself & thought the doneness & taste were all pretty close & I thought the 6 I put in the box were my best chance for a call (my opinion - subjective; obviously 1 judge had a different opinion - subjective which he is entitled to). Next contest I was more focused on my rib prep ect & I got 6th place.

ModelMaker
10-23-2007, 12:53 PM
"Maybe some sort of refundable monetary deposit should be instituted to assure CBJ's will show. JMHO"

Man, this is just getting way out of hand. You want me to send money in to a contest to make sure I'll be there? If I tell an organizer I will be there, I will be there. My word is golden. I was schdeuled to judge the Iowa State championships in Marshalltown this spring and due to health problems had to cancel. I called the judges organizer in due time and informed him of such. I think most adults would do likewise, if not then next time they sign up they should be told their services are not needed and why. Problem solved.

I think the biggest problem is non-commmunication between organizers and judges. At the Brew-B-Que in Independence this year I never did get any tiype of confirmation that I was confirmed as a judge and had to call him twice to make sure I was needed. And I was not the only one, listening to some of the others it was a common thought that there was a huge gap between the two.
This can be fixed easily with better communication. Problem solved.

As far as why don't you get the same numbers from everybody? What the hell do you expect? Some people just have different ideas of presentation, taste, and tenderness. However it is all addressed in the rules. Low score is removed, IF A JUDGE IS DOING A CONSISTANTLY BAD JOB THE REP MUST HANDLE IT!!
The system obviously works as the top rated teams win quite often. Problem not.

I believe that every judge who has done several contests is well aware of the effort and time and cost that you all put out and does their very best to give you your due.
And I think most of you are aware of the time and effort we as judges put forth also. So lets quit the nitpickin crap about taking a few bags of leftovers home (versus pitching it in the garbage) to show the wife what other people serve as BBQ, and just enjoy the sport of heads up mine is better than yours.
Have a great winter and I'll see you all next spring.
ModelMaker

butts a fire
10-23-2007, 01:25 PM
I can't believe this thread turned into this battle between judges. But I would like to give my .02. I think that judges do the best they can with the system they have been given. I have never judged but I have several relatives that do judge on a regular basis. I also believe that more often that not the right teams are winning the contests those teams that can turn in the best most consistant bbq week in and week out are going to win and that is a proven fact if the judging didn't work then you would not see the same teams winning every week and every year they are just that good. I am not that good yet but am getting better and I have the scores that prove it. occasionally I get a score I didn't deserve both high and low so in my estimation the system is not broke and does not need to be changed at all.

And as far as the judges taking home the leftover from my turn ins I could care less once I turn it in I don't want it back and they are free to do with it what ever they please. With that said when I start judging next year I will probably not be taking home leftovers as I already have plenty from the competitions that I do.

motoeric
10-23-2007, 02:14 PM
How often were the judges who signed up kept in contact with?

They received at least one email each week for the three weeks prior to the event.

Eric

Jeff_in_KC
10-23-2007, 08:29 PM
I have not getten thru all the post yet, but I have to respond to this...It only takes 1 umpire to screw up a baseball game by calling a ball a strike that was really a ball.

Our sport needs judges & judges are going to have their own tastes & opinions & if you can't take the subjective nature of judging in our sport then quit competeing & if you decide to not quit competeing then at least quit your whining.

One of the comps I did this summer my ribs received 7, 8's & 9's for taste & one judge gave me a 5 which just kept me out of the top 10 & possible the top 5. Did I bash the judge or that score, no...I thought what the hell was wrong with the rib that the judge got...did it have an uneven amount of rub, did he get too much cayenne, or did he just not like the flavor profile I created???

Man, you have some friggin nerve to tell me to quit whining. If problems are never addressed, they never get fixed.

Papa Hogg
10-24-2007, 08:22 AM
First off, do you realize what some judges are doing? They're taking such small nibbles off their samples that there's no way they can fairly judge the meats. I got this directly from Ed Roith last year in the parking lot of the KCBS office. He's busted many people doing this. So why only nibble on it? So you can take home pretty much un-eaten pieces of meat while the juding process becomes a farce.

Secondly, the judges know what they have to do when they sign on. Nothing says they "deserve" to take home leftovers. The meat does not BELONG to them. Now if a contest wants to allow judges to come take meat from the de-constructed boxes and to ask teams to bring up extras for the volunteer table (judges are basically volunteers too), fine. Take all you want. Oh and throwing away a little bit of food leftover is not a waste OR a sin.

I'm with Jeff; judges cooking once isn't for pity points but for perspective. Just as I think it's good for a cook to judge.

I've just seen judges with a very high opinion of what they're doing, as though it couldn't be done without them. That's true on one level, but even without judges, there would be barbecue.

And I'm sorry, but driving and staying in a hotel isn't the same as buying equipment, driving with the equipment in tow, paying entry fees, buying meat, staying up all night, etc... The work of judging is minimal.. sit on your butt and eat. I've done it, I know it's not as tough as cooking.

I don't think judges take it less seriously than they should... Some just should take themselves less seriously.

Exactly what are the awards if they aren't basically "praise" for jobs well done? I see teams winning awards getting praised by their peers all the time and deservedly so. In contrast, I've never heard a person tell a judge "Awesome job on tasting that BBQ and scoring it 787!"

Eric, around here, most contest judge areas are inside a building with A/C in the summer and very few flies. Most don't drive 100 miles even round trip because there are so many events in this region. So sitting through rain storms and snow doesn't draw my praise when I was cooped up in a 10x10 canopy with a grill, half a Spicewine, three tables and my wife for hours a couple of weeks ago, all the while trying to keep all of our equipment dry, from blowing away or being floated away by the run-off from the driving rain storm.

Man, you have some friggin nerve to tell me to quit whining. If problems are never addressed, they never get fixed.

Testy, testy...I've just re-scanned a few of the post & my comment wasn't aimed directly at you, but I guess as the saying goes "if the shoe fits", I just used your post to illustrate my sports umpire/ref comparison.

When dealing with humans there are going to be some problems here & there & if you can't accept a less than perfect system maybe you should stay in your backyard. I've never heard Mike Davis from Lotta Bull complain that the judges screwed him, I have only heard him complain about his own cooking & what he did wrong, maybe that's why he is one of the elite, same goes with Dr.BBQ.

On a whole most comps run very smoothly & the ones that don't cease to exist. Like Model Maker & The Kapt'n said if the competitors complain to much it is possible our sport will go away because of lack of judges, or worse yet all of the good (& that's 99% of them) judges will quit judging competitions & we will be left with people off the street.

Just my .02...

Jeff_in_KC
10-24-2007, 09:26 AM
Testy, testy...I've just re-scanned a few of the post & my comment wasn't aimed directly at you, but I guess as the saying goes "if the shoe fits", I just used your post to illustrate my sports umpire/ref comparison.

When dealing with humans there are going to be some problems here & there & if you can't accept a less than perfect system maybe you should stay in your backyard. I've never heard Mike Davis from Lotta Bull complain that the judges screwed him, I have only heard him complain about his own cooking & what he did wrong, maybe that's why he is one of the elite, same goes with Dr.BBQ.

On a whole most comps run very smoothly & the ones that don't cease to exist. Like Model Maker & The Kapt'n said if the competitors complain to much it is possible our sport will go away because of lack of judges, or worse yet all of the good (& that's 99% of them) judges will quit judging competitions & we will be left with people off the street.

Just my .02...

I guess you are relatively new so you probably haven't heard Ray go off on CBJs. Bad example there. Maybe for other reasons but still... do a search.

I think you're way overboard to tell me to "stay in my backyard" if I can't accept a less than perfect system. I don't do 12 to 15 contests a year not being accepting of the system. However, there are always ways to improve on those imperfect systems (not making them perfect) and without discussions of opinions and ideas, nothing gets accomplished. In any area of life, should we just let situations that we don't agree with continue or should we look to improve them? Should you make it your personal agenda to quiet the expression of thoughts, ideas and suggestions because you happen to be happy with everything? I simply disagree with allowing coolers into a judging area because I believe it encourages SOME judges to concentrate on what they get to take home with them and not on the task at hand. And I guess that's not a KCBS issue. It's up to organizers to make that call.

tony76248
10-24-2007, 10:17 AM
I'll take the IBCA judging over KCBS any day.

Rookie'48
10-24-2007, 01:40 PM
Wow - lotta different views here, some are kinda heated:rolleyes:. For what it's worth, I've judged a grand total of three comps. At each of them, I asked my table captain to keep an eye on my scores and tell me later if mine were out of line with the other CBJs. At all three I was "in the ballpark" with the others. Does that make me a good judge? No, it doesn't, not yet, maybe not at all, but I'll give it my best honest opinion for each sample presented to my eyes, nose & pallet.
That being said, and unless I'm told not to, I will take my leftovers, put them in a baggie & place them in a small cooler to take home. If a particular sample was terrible, then I leave that one on the plate to be thrown away, if one was truly excellent (10 on a 2 to 9 scale), then that one will most likely be eaten right then & there.
It's been stated that each judge is presented with 1 1/2 to 2 pounds of food, just in the 4 main categories, not counting extra entries. I'm a big boy, 6' 2" & 265 (mostly belly), but to eat all of what is put in front of me wouldn't leave any room for beer. I do take at least 2 bites of each sample, but what do you think I should do with the rest?
Dave Compton
KCBS CBJ #22569
Class of 4-28-2007