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View Full Version : KCBS Juding and Ways to Improve It


jvreeland
10-08-2007, 12:16 PM
DISCLAIMER: For those that read this on the KCBS Board please do not take these comments as we hate the system as many of us do not. We just want to make the KCBS the best BBQ circuit out there. So as members we would like to voice some of our concerns and provide feedback on improvements. After reading Gordon's post over here (http://www.thesmokering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11696&highlight=) about the issues he experienced at the American Royal - I thought I would start this thread on ways in which the KCBS can improve judging (this was originally posted over at The Smoke Ring (http://www.thesmokering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=107710), but I thought I would get everyone's comments here as well).

First off - I think at a bare minimum we need to start tracking the scoring of judges. This is without a doubt the biggest step we can make to working with judges to make their scores more uniform across the chart.

Second - Going one step further I think a simple review after the table has finished judging the box on why everyone scored they way they did would be great. I am sure we can come up with a simple piece of paper that has the standardized issues with boxes/meats. For example, on a brisket box a judge could not like the brisket because it was too tough, dry, bad seasoning, cut too big, etc...
If we had this simple sheet we could better understand from the cooks side why it was scored the way it was.

Third - (and this could be a radical move, so do not crucify me) nobody is a judge if they are not a CBJ. Stop bring people off the street. Is it going to result in judges having multiple rounds of boxes, yes - but at least we have certified judges judging the competitions.

I know others have some ideas on things that can be improved so please post them.

Slamdunkpro
10-08-2007, 01:20 PM
Let me start by stating that I have never judged a comp. I did sit through the CBJ class and I’ve been cooking for a long time so, from that perspective:

Becoming a CBJ should mean something more that “I have $40, a pulse, and 4 hours to kill.” I sat through the class and was stunned at the lack of any standard in regard to how to judge. It was like sitting in a trendy shrink’s session. Every question was answered with “but how does it taste to you?” This is not the path to consistency.

What to do? KCBS could/should:

Standardize the turn in requirements - particularly in Chicken. Skin off/skin on, it doesn’t matter, but pick one so all judges see a level playing field. The same applies to sauce - on/off/on the side - PICK ONE and mandate it. Brisket - sliced or chopped, and so on. Stop trying to make the judges into mind readers with things like “judge it as the cook intended it”. What????

Allow judges to talk about the entries with the table captain as moderator. This would go a long way in stopping the wild disparity in scoring. The judges still score individually but they can communicated the pluses/minuses of entries prior.

Give the cooks meaningful feedback - instruct judges to use terms that people can relate to. “Terrible” and “Wonderful” are descriptive terms but hardly quantifiable or helpful. On the other hand “Tough” “Dry” “Salty” “Sweet” “Tender” “Moist” and so on not only give feedback cooks can understand they can also help judges when adjudicating a score.

My 2 cents.

jvreeland
10-08-2007, 01:31 PM
Give the cooks meaningful feedback - instruct judges to use terms that people can relate to. “Terrible” and “Wonderful” are descriptive terms but hardly quantifiable or helpful. On the other hand “Tough” “Dry” “Salty” “Sweet” “Tender” “Moist” and so on not only give feedback cooks can understand they can also help judges when adjudicating a score.

My 2 cents.

Perfectly said - it helps cooks understand what was wrong with it as well as judges "recap" why they gave it it a 6 instead of 8 or 9.

ModelMaker
10-08-2007, 01:32 PM
Just speaking for myself I would love to see a printout of judges scores. You cooks get a printout and can see how everything compares. Why not judges?
I wonder all the time how my scores compared to the other 5 at my table. We talk about the turn ins but mostly in generalities.
Would other judges care to justify their scores among their table mates?
ModelMaker

acorette
10-08-2007, 01:47 PM
As I took the KCBS Judging class a few weeks back, I was thinking to myself "wouldn't it be great if there was some consistency in scoring that made it less subjective and more descriptive to the cook?" Since KCBS taught me to "start at a 6 and go up or down from there," how about quantifiable adders/subtractors so that you'd arrive at a score (based upon your tastes) with more feedback toward the team? Something like a list of plusses or minuses with checkboxes.... Start at 6 then subtract one for "too salty" or subtract 2 for "way too salty." Or add one for "just the right amount of heat" and add one for "just the right amount of sweet." As mentioned, things like "tastes great," and "wonderful" don't do anything. Let's start measuring the dimensions of taste and texture, and provide quantifiable reasons for going up or down the scale.

My $0.02.

Aaron
8 Ball and the 'Que Sticks

MilitantSquatter
10-08-2007, 02:05 PM
This topic has been and will continue to be debated to death. I'm sure each of us have some great ideas & views as to how it can be improved. Unfortunately, unless all the teams are willing to voice their concerns and suggestions in an organized manner to the BOD and judging committees, or run for a BOD position themselves, not much can be accomplished online.

To use an experience at the AR as indicitive of across the board problems seems unfair. What can be expected in a contest with 500 teams and many judges not familiar with the system ?

Seems like KCBS is certainly trying to make improvements. In a subjective event such as BBQ contests, this it will never be perfect or close to it. KCBS could end up spending a lot of money and resources to address certain areas that will ultimately yield little return. For not, I'm fairly satisfied with the current system. The top teams generally stand out more often than not, the lowest scores get dropped etc. Everyone thinks there BBQ is great, no one wants to believe their BBQ is average.

KC_Bobby
10-08-2007, 02:07 PM
I wonder all the time how my scores compared to the other 5 at my table. We talk about the turn ins but mostly in generalities.

Ed, I agree. The time I judged we did discuss what we gave and why with the rest of the table after everyone was done with each catagory. I think that's one way we as judges can become better and get more consistant scoring from judge to judge.

Roo-B-Q'N
10-08-2007, 02:11 PM
After reading Gordon's post over here (http://www.thesmokering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11696&highlight=) about the issues he experienced at the American Royal - I thought I would start this thread on ways in which the KCBS can improve judging (this was originally posted over at The Smoke Ring (http://www.thesmokering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=107710), but I thought I would get everyone's comments here as well).

First off - I think at a bare minimum we need to start tracking the scoring of judges. This is without a doubt the biggest step we can make to working with judges to make their scores more uniform across the chart.

Second - Going one step further I think a simple review after the table has finished judging the box on why everyone scored they way they did would be great. I am sure we can come up with a simple piece of paper that has the standardized issues with boxes/meats. For example, on a brisket box a judge could not like the brisket because it was too tough, dry, bad seasoning, cut too big, etc...
If we had this simple sheet we could better understand from the cooks side why it was scored the way it was.

Third - (and this could be a radical move, so do not crucify me) nobody is a judge if they are not a CBJ. Stop bring people off the street. Is it going to result in judges having multiple rounds of boxes, yes - but at least we have certified judges judging the competitions.

I know others have some ideas on things that can be improved so please post them.

As this is the Brethren Forum I will let Gordon do his talking over on that forum and address your comments here. I am a cook, an organizer and a judge. I judged both the AR Invitational, Open sides (all three categories), open desserts, and the all of the Open meats.

If you have ever stopped and watch what the Reps and most table captains are doing while judges are stuffing food in their mouths your questions would be answered. Every time I have judged, the table captain has gone over each judges slip before handing them to the Rep. At that point every Rep I have had has gone over the slips again before handing them to be tallied. So judges are being tracked and if needed they are being called out if a Rep needs to do so. This was explained at both the invitaional and the Open. It happens.

I have not judged a comp where the judges did not go over the scoring and the reasons why they are judged. There is no way a standardized form would be able to be made let alone the time to go over things and mark them as needed. I will use your brisket example. I was talking with two guys and one said he prefferd his brisket cut thinner than the standard number 2 pencil as laid out by KCBS the other guy said he liked his much thicker than the # 2 Pencil. These two guys were not judges however they were 2 guys from the SAME TEAM cooking the open. So a standardization in the judges tent would be tough. Turn the card over and write why if you want, it is encouraged and I do it If I have to give something 5 or below.

All CBJ's would be wonderful. But often time a non CBJ is not as harsh as a CBJ so better scoring without all CBJ's. Not right, but there it is. Teams go out of their way to see how the judges tent will be stacked so they can adjust their cooking styles.

When I cook I know if my product sucks or not and when I get a 5 or 6 I know exactly why. To many cooks are to quick to look at the judges tent and not at themselves.

Now how to improve? How about reinstating the cooking regulation for the judge that is going to be given his Master Badge. I think this was a very poor decision on the part of KCBS. I actually think a judge should cook with a team LONG before 30 judging events. It is sad how clueless many judges are about what it takes and what goes on in the pit. So as a team, if you are not already a CBJ get to a class. Once there listen and ask questions. If you are team have a CBJ cook with you one weekend and show him the ropes, I guarantee he or she will be a better judge.

Sorry rant over.

pigmaker23
10-08-2007, 02:12 PM
well said Vinny, this topic has been beat to death over the years


This topic can certainly be debated to death and I'm sure each of us have some great ideas & views as to how it can be improved. Unfortunately, unless all the teams are willing to voice their concerns and suggestions in an organized manner to the BOD and judging committees, not much can be accomplished.

Seems like KCBS is certainly trying to make improvements. In a subjective event such as this it will never be perfect. KCBS could end up spending a lot of money and resources to address certain areas that will ultimately yield little return. For not, I'm fairly satisfied with the current system. The top teams generally stand out more often than not, the lowest scores get dropped etc.

smoke-n-my-i's
10-08-2007, 03:17 PM
I think the reason there is so much controversy is the way some of the scores we get. For example, on one of my scores, I had 4,4,6,8,8, and a 9. So why such a difference in the scores for the same piece of meat???? Why two 4's with two 8's and a 9?????? That tells me that something is astray....

I wonder where the judges got there training, and what were they expecting. If there is such a difference in the score on the same piece of meat, tell me what is going on....

There is no standard in my opinion when there is such a wide spread on the points.

It does need some help, especially when when the scores are like that, and no explanation.

Bill

Lakeside Smoker
10-08-2007, 03:57 PM
I think the reason there is so much controversy is the way some of the scores we get. For example, on one of my scores, I had 4,4,6,8,8, and a 9. So why such a difference in the scores for the same piece of meat???? Why two 4's with two 8's and a 9?????? That tells me that something is astray.... Bill

You can never tell someone what they like or dislike. People have their own tastes...that can never change.
I judged a comp. a few years ago and one rib had (IMHO) way too much cumin. Its all I could taste for the rest of the rib entry's. When rib judging was done we were all talking about the ribs and one guy said 'that was the best rib I ever had!" He was saying that about the rib I hated! How can that ever change? I think as cooks we need to know where the lines are. It took me just over a year to find out whats 'too hot'

Mike
Lakeside Smokers
NEBS
KCBS
CBJ

slat
10-08-2007, 04:13 PM
I have noticed the differences in scoring this year as both a judge and team. I think that a lot of judges don't understand that what they are judging isn't supposed to be like commercial BBQ. I believe that some think that it should be and score accordingly when it's not.
I also think that maybe before a judge can judge more than 2 or 3 contests that they should have to cook with a team. That way they understand what goes on on the other side.
What about having a mentor or two at the judging to help new judges in scoring. This would be helpful where a contest is a first time contest or where there was a recent judging class. I know in my hometown they had a judging class that had over 100 people attend and they were given first choice to judge this contest. That is just too many new judges. The scores were crazy.
I think for the most part judges do a good job, but I think that a little support after the class wouldn't hurt.

The Pickled Pig
10-08-2007, 04:24 PM
I think the reason there is so much controversy is the way some of the scores we get. For example, on one of my scores, I had 4,4,6,8,8, and a 9. So why such a difference in the scores for the same piece of meat???? Why two 4's with two 8's and a 9?????? That tells me that something is astray....
Bill

The KCBS scoring is amazingly consistent from a big picture perspective. For the most part, the same teams generally win and the same teams generally do poorly. If the scoring model didn't work, we wouldn't have teams that get and stay hot.

If your entries get inconsistent scores in more than 1 contest it's time for a change. I'd recommend a change after a single poor showing. The top teams don't get 4s or 6s on any entry at any contest so something has to change if you're trying to win. Somehow you'll have to find out how to broaden the scope of the audience that likes your BBQ. To help determine what needs to change, post a pic of your entry along with your recipe and preparation techniques on this site and I'll bet many Bretheren will give you pointers without needing to taste your food.

G$
10-08-2007, 04:26 PM
....

Standardize the turn in requirements - particularly in Chicken. Skin off/skin on, it doesn’t matter, but pick one so all judges see a level playing field. The same applies to sauce - on/off/on the side - PICK ONE and mandate it. Brisket - sliced or chopped, and so on. Stop trying to make the judges into mind readers with things like “judge it as the cook intended it”. What????
.....

IMO ...

Requiring everyone to turn in the same cut is not leveling the playing field, nor is requiring (or not) sauce, etc. We need to maintain some individuality and, dare I say "soul" in what we cook and present. It is a cooking contest not a judging contest, so let the cooks introcuce the variables and the judges interpret the results. :smile:

As to the "Judge it as the cook intended it" comment, I agree, I have never liked that statement. I wish it was not repeated so oftent in those terms.

Some good points, this thread could get long!

lwest99
10-08-2007, 04:34 PM
G$ comments got me to thinking. I do not think this would happen but what about having the cook present their box to the judges? It would no longer be a blind judging but the cook could get the correct feedback from the judges. I agree with Paul that the same teams win all the time so something must be on track but I would like better feedback. What would you think if you had to present your food to the judges at the judging tent?

Sawdustguy
10-08-2007, 04:56 PM
G$ comments got me to thinking. I do not think this would happen but what about having the cook present their box to the judges? It would no longer be a blind judging but the cook could get the correct feedback from the judges. I agree with Paul that the same teams win all the time so something must be on track but I would like better feedback. What would you think if you had to present your food to the judges at the judging tent?

That already exists. It's called Memphis in May.

The Giggler
10-08-2007, 05:18 PM
G$ comments got me to thinking. I do not think this would happen but what about having the cook present their box to the judges? It would no longer be a blind judging but the cook could get the correct feedback from the judges. I agree with Paul that the same teams win all the time so something must be on track but I would like better feedback. What would you think if you had to present your food to the judges at the judging tent?

One word: Logistics. Can you imagine trying to have each team present their entries to the judges? Who goes first? At what time? etc? Then factor salesmanship and showmanship.... We're one step away from MIM On-Site Judging.

I like, and trust the "double blind" judging that KCBS offers us as competitors. If the comment cards are available to the judges, they should be useful to the teams. The judges comment cards could use some help.

Following the last competition, we received a survey asking about the comment cards. (I hope you all fill them out). A comment card could be standardized IMO, and the judge wouldn't have to think too much or get real flowery on their opinions. We received a comment card that said: "Very Bold Taste, Really Enjoyed It" - Thanks for the feedback, BTW Which category did you mean? (there were 6....) Not helpful at all.

This is what I sent back to KCBS on the survey sheet:

Have a category box, and break the entry down like the way it is judged/scored: Anything under a 6 requires a comment card:
Circle All That Apply
Category: Chicken Ribs Pork Brisket Other____
1. Apperance
2. Taste - Bland/Hot/Sweet (etc)
3. Tenderness - Tough/Dry/Overdone (etc)
4. Other Comments____

I actually got a little POed at my team following their "objective" review of the scoresheet: "How could this judge give us 9 9 9, and the judge next door score 6-5-5." Rants, raves, and the like. Who gives a chit? The score's the score. It's what that person thought. Period.

You've got to believe in the system, win or lose. Otherwise save your time and money. Again, the feedback card could use some improvement. If they gave some meaningful feedback, it might help teams make gains in scoring.

Another .02.

cyburai
10-08-2007, 05:55 PM
I've always had a problem with how BBQ is judged. Mostly because of the lack of feedback in the process. I'd love to have some feedback even if it was to confirm my own suspicions (tough, salty, sweet, are you trying to poison me?)

I am a Beer Judge for Homebrew (and yes, I am a homebrewer.) The program associated with training and tracking judges has alot in common with the CBJ program. One of the things I like about BJCP is the requirement to try and give feedback to the brewer. Even if I find a beer lacking (and trust me I have both sides of really bad beer and most excellent beer) I try to give some feedback saying why I personally don't like it.

Just like in BBQ judging, there is a table captain to review the scoresheets as they come in to make sure a judge doesn't slack off, or misunderstand the process. If the table captain sees something odd, it's their responsibility to ask the judge "are you sure you want to score this way?" In some cases, the judge will say "yep, I have my reasons".

There is a parallel in beer and bbq, both can be very cheap hobbies, and very expensive hobbies. Time, materials, and equipment can get pretty pricey quick. That said, serious competitors should at least have some better feedback than what we get now.

I know some people will say "there isn't time to give feed back!" I say BS, a BBQ tasting is 6-7 containers, and all you have to do is circle a couple of numbers, and on occasion fill out the comments. On the other hand, When I judge a flight of beers (a specific category), I may be judging up to 14 different beers. I still find the time to fill out the scoresheet completely with the intent on giving the brewer meaningful feedback.

Here's the scoresheet you use for beer judging..

http://www.bjcp.org/SCP_BeerScoreSheet.pdf

One of the things you will notice on the left is checkboxes for common flaws associated with beer. I don't see why these also can't be incorporated into the bbq judging process. I've head there is an attempt at something like this via KCBS. Other things you notice is every scoresheet has your name, BJCP number if you are a BJCP judge, and the score "spreads" to make sure you are not scoring incorrectly.

I realize that you have to have faith in the scoring system for the system to work. But the scoring system used by KCBS as the gold standard is weak IMHO. Considering all the monetary and personal tolls we shell out in order to compete, there should be some feedback to guide us into making great Q.

Anyhow, i'm done ranting. Sorry if I have offended anyone. But I am of the opinion you can have a great time making awesome Q and still improve as you go along. Providing you have the right feedback from peers, quality judges, and trial and error.

Last thing, was anyone else put off by the smell of the livestock near the turnin at the royal? Did the judges have to smell manure while judging? That would put my appetite and sense of taste all out of whack.

KC_Bobby
10-08-2007, 07:04 PM
Last thing, was anyone else put off by the smell of the livestock near the turnin at the royal? Did the judges have to smell manure while judging? That would put my appetite and sense of taste all out of whack.

I noticed that Friday afternoon, but realized it was the same smell for everyone. Still thought it was strange. Didn't they have the judging area in the Governor's Building in past years? Guess they wanted more room for the expo this year.

Jeff_in_KC
10-08-2007, 10:40 PM
I know I bitch about judging quite a bit but I also suppose there isn't much I'd suggest to improve it so WTF do I know? But I do like the idea of requiring ALL judges to cook with a team and provide evidence of the event, not just ones going for Master CBJ. I think that if we do nothing more than show all judges how much work, effort, time and cash goes into this, we might just make a lightbulb come on in some judges' minds. "Hey, maybe we need to take it as seriously as the teams do and judge to make it a good event rather than see how much chewed on, half-eaten BBQ we can take home in our coolers." Couldn't hurt...

The above commentary was written by CBJ #8472.

slat
10-08-2007, 10:51 PM
The contest I have judged this year aren't allowing you to take anything home. This doesn't bother me at all. I think it will weed out those who are looking for a free take home meal. That should help with the scores some.

bbqbull
10-08-2007, 11:04 PM
I would like to say here is.............When I took Paul Kirks Class a few years ago, we had non-certified judges. Paul did his best to educate the folks who did the judging.

Me and my partner took 4 out of 5 ribbions. Ok, no biggie here as I definately dont need or want the ego attitude thing at all.

We did our best, and I gave all our ribbons to my partner.

The left over food was consumed by a bunch of my friends at a batchelor party.
They said, it was the best bbq they had ever tasted in their lives.

When I cooked 2 yrs ago at Grand Rapids, Michigan.........they brought a bunch of......celeberty judges. TV weather reporters, ect...... Well that just made me happier than a felon on death row.

I learned that you can cook really chitty Q, sauce the hell outta it, and your a winner. Does that mean that saucing food makes you a champ? Not im my book.

KCBS really needs to make sure all.......and I mean all judges, have cooked in a competion several times, and then taken a certified judging class, before they are allowed to judge any competition.

Hell anybody and everybody knows that ya add sugar to your bowl of Cheerios and milk, and you have a tasty ingredient, called breakfast.

Thats why I have stopped totally in the competitions. Have cancelled my KCBS subscription.

I find no solace in my mind of trying to produce good Q, for competitions. I try and do that without saucing my food w/sauces and or honey. I have one hell of a killer doctored sauce, that im sure would really boost my chances at comps. But being a stubborn kinda guy, I wont use it. My Q stands on its own merits per my friends and neighbors, but not them fill in, uneducated judges.

Im sure I could way overcook food, sauce the hell out of it, and maybe , just maybe get some great scores.

IMHO, the judging system needs a total overhaul.

Rant over, And now..............Im gonna shut the fark up!

Jeff_in_KC
10-08-2007, 11:14 PM
The contest I have judged this year aren't allowing you to take anything home. This doesn't bother me at all. I think it will weed out those who are looking for a free take home meal. That should help with the scores some.

THIS is my pet peeve out of all things associated with BBQ contests (that and quiet hours not being enforced). IMO, leave the coolers out of the judging area. If it makes some judges decide not to judge the contest, that's fine by me. It just shows what is important to that judge... collecting meat to take home rather than give us fair scores. Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out! The looks I got from some other judges at Harrisonville when I threw my left overs in the trash after each round of judging just chapped my rear end.

bbqbull
10-08-2007, 11:17 PM
Jeff, are you and Slat willing to run for the BOD of KCBS?

Maybe we could see some serious improvments in judging at future contests?

Just asking here, If I lived closer, I would be willing to put my ass on the line to improve things. You know that, cause im a no bull**** kinda guy.

Jeff_in_KC
10-08-2007, 11:38 PM
Jeff, are you and Slat willing to run for the BOD of KCBS?

Maybe we could see some serious improvments in judging at future contests?

Just asking here, If I lived closer, I would be willing to put my ass on the line to improve things. You know that, cause im a no bull**** kinda guy.

I considered it til I heard a few stories. :lol: Honestly, my time is spread thin as it is with all I have going on. At this point in my life, I think my wife would walk away if I took on something else that time consuming. And I won't do anything like that if I can't do it right. Just don't think time would allow me do do it like I'd want to or like KCBS members would deserve me to do it. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

bbqbull
10-08-2007, 11:41 PM
You rock in my book Brother!

Just thought I would ask?

Dont muck up your home life by taking on more little projects Jeff, trust me on this one.

Family is first and foremost IMHO!

KC_Bobby
10-09-2007, 12:13 AM
When I cooked 2 yrs ago at Grand Rapids, Michigan.........they brought a bunch of......celeberty judges. TV weather reporters, ect...... Well that just made me happier than a felon on death row.

I learned that you can cook really chitty Q, sauce the hell outta it, and your a winner. Does that mean that saucing food makes you a champ? Not im my book.

I wonder if this is what happened to our pork.

411th of the 461 who turned in pork (might as well have been dead last)
J1 - 25.7142
J2 - 31.4286
J3 - 19.4284
J4 - 25.7142
J5 - 24.0000
J6 - 30.8572
Total - 137.7142

Three of us (all CBJ's) were excited with the taste and tenderness of the pork. I took the butt apart muscle by muscle with relative ease and turned in about 1" square chunks, each piece could be shreaded nicely and keep its texture. We really wanted the pork to highlight thetaste and didn't give it much sauce. The sauce was a mix of natural juices from inside the wrap and some Blues Hog. We lightly spread this throughout the pork turn in box. Based on the numbers above, it looks like I got two 7's, three 5's, and a 4 for taste (and likely about the same for tenderness). I'm starting to think adding more sauce would have increased my scores as well as overcooking it.

But, I'll never really know. I'd really like to know what the top and bottom scored judges liked/disliked with it.

KC_Bobby
10-09-2007, 12:28 AM
The looks I got from some other judges at Harrisonville when I threw my left overs in the trash after each round of judging just chapped my rear end.

I did take some of mine home from this contest but not for the purpose of solely eating. I took the remaining parts of the turn ins that I liked for the purpose to give them another taste and look. Well by the time they got cold and reheated some didn't taste as good but it did give me an idea of some other things - like thickness of brisket slices, chicken color, etc.

Which brings up ... if judges can't take pics, maybe they should be able to take it home either.

TOPS BBQ
10-09-2007, 01:14 AM
BBQBull wrote: "I learned that you can cook really chitty Q, sauce the hell outta it, and your a winner. Does that mean that saucing food makes you a champ? Not im my book."

I could write a book about my discontent of using sauce. Unfortunately, I want to win, so I am playing the game of sauce. I created my own and saw my scores go way up. They didn't go through the roof only because I choose not to make it sweet. It was mentioned earlier that walk-in judges look for commercial BBQ. It takes a lot to keep from strangling people who ask me why my rib meat is not falling off the bone.

Regarding the judges cooking with a team: Who decides which team a judge cooks with? I wouldn't mind a judge joining me (through a whole cook) because I tend to stick burners. What would their duties pertain to?

I honestly do not believe that we will be able to change much. But I ask my Brethren Brothers to talk to anyone whom passes by and educate them as to what competition BBQ is all about.

willkat98
10-09-2007, 07:30 AM
THIS is my pet peeve out of all things associated with BBQ contests (that and quiet hours not being enforced). IMO, leave the coolers out of the judging area. If it makes some judges decide not to judge the contest, that's fine by me. It just shows what is important to that judge... collecting meat to take home rather than give us fair scores. Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out! The looks I got from some other judges at Harrisonville when I threw my left overs in the trash after each round of judging just chapped my rear end.

I bring my cooler to every event I've judged.

Its a compliment to get your ribs into my cooler.

If it tastes like chit, it goes in the trash.

I'm only judging one bite or two of an entry, not a whole farking piece.

What difference does it make whether it goes in the cooler or in the trash.

you should strive to cook good enough to make it into the cooler.

everything else is chit.

The fragile flower agrees.

Roo-B-Q'N
10-09-2007, 08:00 AM
Regarding the judges cooking with a team: Who decides which team a judge cooks with? I wouldn't mind a judge joining me (through a whole cook) because I tend to stick burners. What would their duties pertain to?

I honestly do not believe that we will be able to change much. But I ask my Brethren Brothers to talk to anyone whom passes by and educate them as to what competition BBQ is all about.

I would say if so many teams want to change teh way judges see their Q they would be more than happy to have a judge cook with them. I have had backyarders ask to come cook a contest and afterwards say they didn't know what really went into a contest.

So if you want to change anything, it starts with education and education starts in the pits. Duties at a comp are the same as yours and the judge assigned to you would stay up all night, sleep in the chairs if possible, get his or hands dirty, check temps, create the boxes and run the boxes.

Jeff_in_KC
10-09-2007, 08:14 AM
I bring my cooler to every event I've judged.

Its a compliment to get your ribs into my cooler.

If it tastes like chit, it goes in the trash.

I'm only judging one bite or two of an entry, not a whole farking piece.

What difference does it make whether it goes in the cooler or in the trash.

you should strive to cook good enough to make it into the cooler.

everything else is chit.

The fragile flower agrees.

I already stated what difference it makes. People collecting BBQ to take home for another free meal, which I think is gross anyway.

butts a fire
10-09-2007, 08:57 AM
We have been down this road before but I will go ahead and add my .02. As a competitor and having never judged a contest I cannot comment as to the extra time it would take for a judge to give feedback but I would welcome any useful comment that I got from a judge. I think an improvement in that area would help a lot of the bad feeling that some competitors have towards the judging system. Most of us would agree that if we got a 4 from a judge and they said the piece of meat was dry than at least you have some justification for the score and could more easily accept it.

I do not think that the KCBS needs to scrap the current system I believe that it does work as is evident by the consistancy of some teams and my own inconsistancy, I can also tell by looking over my past scores that I am improving and am getting more consistant if the judging wasn't working I would not be able to see this and would win one time and finish last another with the same product instead I am running around the middle of the pack in most of the catagories and am slowly moving up as I turn out a better product.

Transformer BBQ
10-09-2007, 09:06 AM
... I am a cook, an organizer and a judge. I judged both the AR Invitational, Open sides (all three categories), open desserts, and the all of the Open meats.

...

... I will use your brisket example. I was talking with two guys and one said he prefferd his brisket cut thinner than the standard number 2 pencil as laid out by KCBS the other guy said he liked his much thicker than the # 2 Pencil.


Just wondering where the #2 pencil rule is laid out by KCBS?

StLouQue
10-09-2007, 10:25 AM
I certainly appreciate all of the views expressed in this thread.

I'm a brand-new CBJ. As soon as my number arrives in the mail, I'll be out there judging. I've been cooking backyard barbecue for only a little over four years, and to date, have never competed. Let me state that I would appreciate the opportunity to cook with any team at a (relatively) local contest in order to broaden my experience with and appreciation of competition barbecue. If your team needs an extra pair of hands, email me in advance. If no scheduling conflict exists, I can afford the trip and have time to arrange for someone to care of my dogs while I'm away, I'll be there.

The competition stipulation for attaining Master CBJ status has changed? Really? As I understood Mike Lake's description (10/4) that requirement was still in place.

As for saucing, I will judge each piece on its own merit – sauced or not. However, any time I taste barbecue, my preference is for dry. I like to sample the meat in an unadulterated state, doing so tells me more about the cook's (or cooks') experience and talent.

Years ago in elementary school, I read a biography of Hall of Famer Willie Mays. At one point he and teammate, Willie McCovey were locked in a seesaw race for the batting title. As I recall, McCovey came out on top at season's end. Mays was asked by a reporter for his reaction to coming in second. His response was essentially, "If I can't beat the best, I don't deserve to be the best." Obviously, those classy words of wisdom stuck with me.

StLouQue
10-09-2007, 10:29 AM
Just wondering where the #2 pencil rule is laid out by KCBS?

I don't believe it is a rule, but rather a standard that many follow for consistency. I'm pretty sure you are free to slice anyway you choose.

billm
10-09-2007, 10:52 AM
I cook and judge..
I dont see how taking leftover turn ins in a cooler will affect a judges judging either way..
I personally dont keep the food i judge but to each thier own..I could care less form a cook or judges standpoint as long as they judge the food accordingly
I do care that if their are leftovers in the box after judging that the table captains and volunteers at least get some samples though

Jorge
10-09-2007, 10:54 AM
When you guys have this sorted out I need some help with another idea. I have this idea for a thing that is round, and rolls. I'm thinking of calling it....THE WHEEL!

DawgPhan
10-09-2007, 11:48 AM
Just wondering where the #2 pencil rule is laid out by KCBS?


the same place bite through chicken skin is...

Sawdustguy
10-09-2007, 12:24 PM
This thing about having to sauce to win is a bunch of farking bull$hit. At a contest you are cooking for the judges and if they like sauce you will do better. If you can't face up to the fact that you are cooking for people that don't like their Que the same way you do, quit competing and bitching about. Competition isn't about what you like or what your neighbors like or what you friends like, it's about what the judges like. Lets face the farking facts and deal in reality, the judges are human, CBJ or not and they all have their personal likes and dislikes. It's childish to cry over the fact that most judges like their Que sauced. It's moronically obvious, that when you used sauce your scores went up. If a judge likes a rib sauced and he gets a rib that has rub only, which one do you think will get the higher mark? Put yourself in their place. If you had two ribs, one sauced and one not and you liked non sauced ribs, which one do you think you would give the higher mark. The moral of the story is that at a contest, you are cooking for the judges. It doesn't matter how good your friends or neighbors think your Que is. I also think Chris from Ique has a very good point on what really wins contests. Chris wins alot and I think he has some of the best advice on what it takes to win.

Lotta Bull and Pellet Envy don't win because of their rub and sauce selections. They win because the can consistently cook all four meats perfectly. Perfectly cooked meat wins contests not rubs or sauces.

__________________
Chris, iQue
2 BWS Fatboys
2 Large BGE's

Roo-B-Q'N
10-09-2007, 12:25 PM
Just wondering where the #2 pencil rule is laid out by KCBS?

Sorry my bad, not laid out, but suggested as a "standard" to look for. Anything wider could mean that the brisket was overcooked and anything thinner could mean that the brisket was undercooked.

When you guys have this sorted out I need some help with another idea. I have this idea for a thing that is round, and rolls. I'm thinking of calling it....THE WHEEL!

That is just way to crazy to even think it would work.

AlabamaGrillBillies
10-09-2007, 01:33 PM
I would just like some simple one line type feed back. for example:
meat tough
meat dry
skin rubbery
too salty
too hot
That would help.

smoke-n-my-i's
10-09-2007, 02:17 PM
I would just like some simple one line type feed back. for example:
meat tough
meat dry
skin rubbery
too salty
too hot
That would help.

I agree..... that should be included as Standard Operating Procedure......and from each judge.

Sawdustguy
10-09-2007, 02:35 PM
I have brought this up in the not to distant past:

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30657&highlight=judges+feedback

Muzzlebrake
10-09-2007, 08:45 PM
OK so here is my thing............I think one of the biggest problems that I see has more to do with the judges experience level.
As we all know BBQ has grown at an incredibly fast pace these past few years as can be seen in the nuber of and size of contests that now take place all over. Here in our neck of the woods it is rather commonplace to hold a CBJ certification the night before a contest begins at or very near the contest site. For many of these folks this is thier introduction to Competition BBQ and it only stands to reason that the more they will become familiar with what is expected, good or bad.
Anyway thats my idea, always tought it curious that folks were more upset about a judge's cooler more than his resume

lwest99
10-09-2007, 08:58 PM
One of the problems I see is that most people want to cook more than they want to judge. I am a CBJ but have never judged because every chance I get I want to cook. On the weekends I do not cook I am doing family things.
I know a lot of people that are just like me. They took the class to try and learn what the judges were looking for and never really judged. This might not be the norm because I believe that many of the brethren also judges.
I suspect that the majority of us would be happy to have any brethren judge because we have passion for BBQ and understand how much of a commitment it is for the cooks. Should there be a requirment for all cooks to judge at least one contest a calendar year providing there is enough contest in the local area?

The Pickled Pig
10-09-2007, 10:20 PM
I would just like some simple one line type feed back. for example:
meat tough
meat dry
skin rubbery
too salty
too hot
That would help.

Be careful what you ask for. People know when they like and dislike something but are not always good at articulating the reasons why.

I'm in the education business and we administer course evaluations to every sudent at the end of every course. You would be amazed at the dichotomy of the responses from the same class. Some will say "the course moved to slow" while others "the course was too fast". Some complain about the room being warm while others in the same room complain about it being cold. In the end, students score classes that they like high and ones they don't low regardless of the commentary. In the end, they will find a way to make their individual scores reflect how they "feel" about the experience.

I've seen the same thing on all of the judging reality shows on TV, including the BBQ shows. On American Idol how many times has Paula liked something that Simon didn't?

So how will you feel when you get a scorecard with one judge who thought your food was bland when another thinks it's too salty. And what will you change when one judge calls your entry mushy and another calls it tough? As cooks we already get our knickers in a twist when 1 judge scores a 5 and another a 9. Imagine our collective confusion when the comments from 1 entry are opposed.

The difficult part is that we don't actually get to sample what the judges do. Who knows if the ribs that went in the box are the same ones left on the cutting board. Or if the brisket turned in was better or worse than the brisket we didn't submit. All we know is the score we receive. I contend that's all we need to know. If the score for an entry was low and we don't think we could improve it, it's time to change the recipe.

There is a random element in these competitions. But the teams that do well are the teams that consistently turn in perfectly cooked BBQ. Doing so doesn't guarantee a win but it puts those teams in a position to win every time they compete.

We also do CASI chili contests occassionally and in those events, if your chili doesn't make it to the final table, it's not even scored. And you never get a score sheet or even ranking sheet after the contest.

So, if it ain't broke why fix it?

MilitantSquatter
10-09-2007, 10:27 PM
Be careful what you ask for. People know when they like and dislike something but are not always good at articulating the reasons why.

I'm in the education business and we administer course evaluations to every sudent at the end of every course. You would be amazed at the dichotomy of the responses from the same class. Some will say "the course moved to slow" while others "the course was too fast". Some complain about the room being warm while others in the same room complain about it being cold. In the end, students score classes that they like high and ones they don't low regardless of the commentary. In the end, they will find a way to make their individual scores reflect how they "feel" about the experience.

I've seen the same thing on all of the judging reality shows on TV, including the BBQ shows. On American Idol how many times has Paula liked something that Simon didn't?

So how will you feel when you get a scorecard with one judge who thought your food was bland when another thinks it's too salty. And what will you change when one judge calls your entry mushy and another calls it tough? As cooks we already get our knickers in a twist when 1 judge scores a 5 and another a 9. Imagine our collective confusion when the comments from 1 entry are opposed.

The difficult part is that we don't actually get to sample what the judges do. Who knows if the ribs that went in the box are the same ones left on the cutting board. Or if the brisket turned in was better or worse than the brisket we didn't submit. All we know is the score we receive. I contend that's all we need to know. If the score for an entry was low and we don't think we could improve it, it's time to change the recipe.

There is a random element in these competitions. But the teams that do well are the teams that consistently turn in perfectly cooked BBQ. Doing so doesn't guarantee a win but it puts those teams in a position to win every time they compete.

We also do CASI chili contests occassionally and in those events, if your chili doesn't make it to the final table, it's not even scored. And you never get a score sheet or even ranking sheet after the contest.

So, if it ain't broke why fix it?


Well said Paul... great comments...

Jaberwabee
10-10-2007, 02:07 AM
While the KCBS is not perfect, every sport, (because thats what this kind of comes down to), that has judging or a ref has human error. Thats what makes this a never ending competition. We will have good and bad judges and stuff that makes no sense, but we should always have that. Overall the law of averages will win out in the long run, everyone will bitch about the low scrore, but are you complaining about the high score you received when you should'nt have? Example: At the Royal this past weekend. The winner of Ribs in the inv. had 5 scores over 33.5 and then a 29. (makes no sense, I bet Johnny Trigg is calling bull**** on that judge, even though it gets thrown out). Then go to the 25 place team. Purple Turtle. (I am picking them because I helped them). They had 4 scores from 28-31 and then a 36 and a 35.42. But we dont question the higher scores being wrong like the lower ones. Did Purple Turtle have perfect ribs? probably not. Did Smokin Triggers have 29 point ribs? Probably not. The errors will work themselves out, now some kind of feedback I think would be awesome.

StLouQue
10-11-2007, 09:32 AM
Judging is subjective, and there's no reason to expect that comment card submissions will be any different. Some remarks will be useful; others not so much. Nevertheless, if comments are required, I will gladly comply to the best of my ability within the given time constraints.

NotleyQue
10-11-2007, 09:15 PM
I agree.
I have no problems with judges taking home the extras to eat. Id rather see someone eat it than go in the trash. There is sooooooooo much waste produced at contest, and throwing away good food is just re-donk-ulous.

I bring my cooler to every event I've judged.

Its a compliment to get your ribs into my cooler.

If it tastes like chit, it goes in the trash.

I'm only judging one bite or two of an entry, not a whole farking piece.

What difference does it make whether it goes in the cooler or in the trash.

you should strive to cook good enough to make it into the cooler.

everything else is chit.

The fragile flower agrees.

FatBoyz
10-12-2007, 06:54 AM
Here is my 2 cents... if judging is so concistent as we are told how the hell do I get
888 878 778 988 888 545 how does this happen. Dont tell me that thay are trained to judge the test only thay judge what thay like. All judges shold have to cook with a team befor thay are alowed to judge.

MilitantSquatter
10-12-2007, 07:04 AM
Here is my 2 cents... if judging is so concistent as we are told how the hell do I get
888 878 778 988 888 545 how does this happen. Dont tell me that thay are trained to judge the test only thay judge what thay like. All judges shold have to cook with a team befor thay are alowed to judge.

Your scores noted tell me the system works...

5 judges fairly consistent and 1 not as forgiving. With the lowest score being dropped (knowing there will not be total consistency) to smooth it out. You received a very consistent overall score in this category..

FatBoyz
10-12-2007, 07:53 AM
I get that but how do you have 5 people love it and one think its garbage.. that is the piont i am tryin to make inconsistensys when i judge i always watch the other judges to see what thay are thinking and i find many of them have know idea what a cook goes threw to cook for them..that is why i think all judges should have to cook with us once to see what it takes to cook . I think then the judging would be better. I also pulled those score out of my azz but i have seen it done thet way. I was at a contest this year in Ill and the scores where all over the please turned out thay had a 60 40 mix of off the street judges and cbj i did not do to bad here but friends that normaly do very well got hammerd... I am rambilin sorry it's the vicadin for my arm..lol I am going to get off my soap box now before i fall off...

Jorge
10-12-2007, 08:51 AM
Here is my 2 cents... if judging is so concistent as we are told how the hell do I get
888 878 778 988 888 545 how does this happen. Dont tell me that thay are trained to judge the test only thay judge what thay like. All judges shold have to cook with a team befor thay are alowed to judge.

The laws of probability are that you will also, at some point, get scores better than you deserve. But when we get those, it's because we had awesome product...or so we tell ourselves.

There is always the A-hole judge out there that is looking for someone to stick it to, because in their mind they are the ultimate authority on what good food is. This is why the lowest score is dropped, and there are table captains and reps in the judging area. Sometimes it slips through. If there are people in the system there will be errors.

As for judges off the street....that's all you find in Texas at IBCA events. They get some quick training and go to work. In some cases the same people come back to judge year after year, so in that case I guess you can't call them 'off the street' judges. Cookers that aren't cooking an event are encouraged to judge. It works out pretty well. If you want to look at something else take a look at how the Wades, Johnny Trigg and others generally do when they are back in Texas and cook. It isn't luck that you usually find them doing very well. Two different judging systems, but similar results.

Sledneck
10-12-2007, 09:02 AM
The judging class should be done during an event. Judges in training mixed in with regular judges. Sort of like a mentor. This way they get to experience real comp food from different teams not just one guy cooking a bunch of food and altering the presentation. I know having cooked for a class we did try to alter the food but it was all basically the same. Thge things like pooling, 6 individual pieces can be explained along the way

StLouQue
10-12-2007, 09:55 AM
Some cooks clearly get Certified to determine "...what the judges are looking for." A good idea, without a doubt. But, if a percentage of CBJ/cooks avoid actively judging periodically, achieving a 100% CBJ tent is going to continue to be the exception, more than the rule.

One criticism mentioned several times is that judges who don't cook have no knowledge of the process. So farkin' what? Nothing exists that is palatable to everyone, and an appreciation for the effort that went into your barbecue masterpiece isn't going to change that. IMO, there is considerably more value in getting cooks to judge, than requiring judges to cook.

The power to improve consistency in judging is in the hands of those being judged. A cook's lack of interest in judging dilutes not only the judging, but also his/her arguments against the system.

Dale P
10-12-2007, 10:41 AM
I like the system better now than I used to. I used to want comments on why I got low scores but experience has taught us that I dont need a comment when my brisket falls apart or is tough as shoe leather. We know why.
Ive noticed that you dont hear the winners complain much.:icon_blush:

KC_Bobby
10-12-2007, 11:40 AM
Reading through some of these comments makes me realize the system is not bad, bad judges - well that's debatable.

Examples:

1) here's some scores on some recent chicken we turned in
999 888 888 868 967 656
Was it 999 chicken? No
Was it 656 chicken? No, but we got to use the 999 score and throw out the 656, so that's good

2) a recent pork turn in
788 887 767 767 666 646
Yes, this one pains me to include. Reading those numbers hurt, especially when we thought this was good pork. The 6's for taste are more then disappointing, and that 4 makes me want to cry. We realize our mistake (very little sauce) given that the ratio of judges that are also comp cooks was likely very low. That said, we should have thought about this before hand and heavily sauced it. Note to self, cook for the judges...

But it still would be interesting to track each judges scoring history. It's natural for individuals to perceive things differently which will reflect in their judging scores. Thus, after a judge has 5 comps completed it can be seen if judge 12345 has a trend to score high or low. If so and if those numbers are show an extent one way or the other, efforts could be made for judge 12345 to not judge at the same table as judge 56789 because judge 56789 also has a trend of doing the same. Getting two or three judges at the same table with a history of giving lots of 9's or lots of lower scores greatly influence the outcome.

Now I realize this could be difficult (yet possible to do if KCBS keeps records) and trends get bucked from time to time - but if a guy has driven Fords for 20 years, it's more likely than not that his next one's gonna be a Ford too. If possible, let's try to spread the Ford owners around so they mix in with the rest. That's all I'm asking. Hearing from other judges, it's common that they sit with other judges they know and like - which to me could be an indicator of common likes/dislikes, interests, etc.

ModelMaker
10-12-2007, 01:46 PM
Judges sitting together all the time is not really what I see that much . I have made some pretty good friends in the last couple years during judging but as a rule I tend to get there a little early and where I drop my stuff is where I judge. Also the whole point of doing this is to meet new people, judges and cooks, and it would do me no good to sit with the same people all the time.
And as a rule the rep is shuffling people around all the time anyway. spliting up newbies and hubbies and wives.
ModelMaker
P.S. to those of you thinking sauced up food is the secret, think again ,at every contest I hear a lot more "oh **** look at all that sauce" then I do " I wish they would slop some more sauce on this meat"

KC_Bobby
10-12-2007, 02:27 PM
Ed, that's encouraging to hear - on both items you mention

Mo-Dave
10-12-2007, 02:32 PM
I get that but how do you have 5 people love it and one think its garbage.. that is the piont i am tryin to make inconsistensys when i judge i always watch the other judges to see what thay are thinking and i find many of them have know idea what a cook goes threw to cook for them..that is why i think all judges should have to cook with us once to see what it takes to cook . I think then the judging would be better. I also pulled those score out of my azz but i have seen it done thet way. I was at a contest this year in Ill and the scores where all over the please turned out thay had a 60 40 mix of off the street judges and cbj i did not do to bad here but friends that normaly do very well got hammerd... I am rambilin sorry it's the vicadin for my arm..lol I am going to get off my soap box now before i fall off...

Sorry I have to mention this but what the heck does it matter what the cook had to go threw to cook it. All that should matter is if its good or not. I cook and judge about equal amounts of time and get tired of being told how not to be so hard on the cooks because they have spent so much time, effort and money at contest, believe me I have walked away as a cook empty handed more times than Id like to say. But I have never begrudged a judge for my scores and figure its my fault if they did not like it. Yes there are a few exceptions and a few judges that should not be doing it. As the old saying goes you payies yer money you takes yer chances. So if you want the big bucks you need to bring your A game every time. I am really not the hard as, as I may seam here but if you look at the scores and are really honest to yourself you may find some of the judges have been maybe a little to kind sometimes, I have said all this before but feel it needs repeating at time and I am not picking on anyone individual, heck I have wined about a few of my scores its just the nature of the beast.
Dave

Jaberwabee
10-12-2007, 03:03 PM
The laws of probability are that you will also, at some point, get scores better than you deserve. But when we get those, it's because we had awesome product...or so we tell ourselves.

.

I agree, as long as there are humans it will be subjective, but it will also even out.

AsstChief7
10-12-2007, 05:07 PM
Sorry I have to mention this but what the heck does it matter what the cook had to go threw to cook it. All that should matter is if its good or not. I cook and judge about equal amounts of time and get tired of being told how not to be so hard on the cooks because they have spent so much time, effort and money at contest, believe me I have walked away as a cook empty handed more times than Id like to say. But I have never begrudged a judge for my scores and figure its my fault if they did not like it. Yes there are a few exceptions and a few judges that should not be doing it. As the old saying goes you payies yer money you takes yer chances. So if you want the big bucks you need to bring your A game every time. I am really not the hard as, as I may seam here but if you look at the scores and are really honest to yourself you may find some of the judges have been maybe a little to kind sometimes, I have said all this before but feel it needs repeating at time and I am not picking on anyone individual, heck I have wined about a few of my scores its just the nature of the beast.
Dave

Thanks for your comments Dave. I have been sitting here trying to figure out how making a judge work with a team is going to improve their scores.

Chief

MilitantSquatter
10-12-2007, 07:00 PM
Ageed Dave... great comments....

As much as people want competitive BBQ to grow, to be viewed as "pros" etc. is great. But in the end, all the rules can be perfect, training etc and it's a great hobby at which some cooks are lucky and talented enough to make some cash more often than not. As the sport grows those teams and some new teams will surely profit as it evolves.

Do you really think many judges would cry and kick and scream if they received an e-mail / call etc. from KCBS saying that they were "banned" from judging due to repetitive, inconsistent scoring ? I mean it's not like they are getting paid, have a vested interest etc. Sure it would be nice for a judge to watch a team cook etc. That might make them think about the hard work, but how is that gonna change the way they view/taste the product at future contests ?

Let KCBS continue to tweak and make improvements as the resources allow. At the same time, let the teams bitch & moan after a contest about how they were not scored fairly.

When you put up $500-$1000 to enter a contest... It's like gambling. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Sure you expect the contest to be judged perfectly but it's just regular people like you and I judging. We are all human and make errors and some care less than others.

As the sport grows, it will certainly become more difficult to hold more contests and have more qualified judges. I look at it more like People's Choice. I may love it, people may hate it. If people continue to hate it.. I have two options.. 1) change my recipes/techniques or 2) stop entering contests if I don't like the results.

Also, if cooks aren't also willing to invest some of their time judging a few times a year, they should also not complain 'cause they aren't helping the cause.

Bud's BBQ
10-13-2007, 03:51 PM
We are new to competitive qing (only 3 comps) and have taken a recent kcbs judging class. First impressions for me: KCBS is a great organization looking to improve. The whole 'industry' of comp bbqing has bursted at its seems over the last couple of years; it's a great way to meet good folks; and it has some warts. There were some folks in that judging class who admitted that they didn't even like certain kinks of bbq.....wow, who wants her for a judge???

We all need to be good custodians of this 'sport'. Besides, good teams are winning consistently, so it must be working pretty well.

Lakeside Smoker
10-13-2007, 03:55 PM
There were some folks in that judging class who admitted that they didn't even like certain kinks of bbq.....wow, who wants her for a judge???

I know what you mean.
I took my CBJ class and one guy said he was allergic to chicken!!!!!!! WTF? My first thought was 'then you CAN'T be a BBQ judge!