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barbedQ
08-19-2007, 05:43 PM
I was having a conversation with some buddies last night and they asked me a question that I thought would be a good topic for the forum.

Is sanctioning of an event more important than the money?

If so where do you think the line is.

I told them that as an almost non-entity in the run for Grand or Reserve, I'd go for an event with a bigger prize pool over sanctioning.

Thoughts?

Dustaway
08-19-2007, 05:59 PM
I can only speak for my experience in Texas, sanctioning an event does help.

however in Texas there are a lot of bar room or"ice house" cook offs that are not sanctioned that pay big money up wards of 10k they do try to follow most sanctioning rules one rule that most have is the brisket is usually tagged and all the slices must come from that brisket.

for me it all depends on the time of year how many cook offs there are that weekend and of course the money.

Plowboy
08-19-2007, 06:24 PM
I think the answer depends on who's answering it.

For those chasing Team of the Year points, Jack draws, or invitations, then sanctioning is going to rate pretty high. Although, that can easily go out the window for the right money... say $75,000 purse on last year's VS. BBQ Championship.

I cook a non-sanctioned comp each year purely for the money... or hopes of money. I'm not chasing points, but would like a GC in my lifetime, so will try to do as many sanctioned contests as I can. I have a GC from a non-sanctioned contest, but it doesn't mean nearly the same to me.

From my experience, a contest organizer is going to have a better turnout if it is sanctioned, unless they throw A LOT of money at the purse. Dollar for dollar, sanctioning is going to bring you more teams. I think most of it is awareness. Most teams look to their sanctioning body to become aware of contests in their area.

Bigmista
08-19-2007, 09:38 PM
We have been having a similar conversation on the CBBQA site. Our conversation has been a little more specific though. Our question has been what does the KCBS offer that we can't do ourselves? The CBBQA has been sanctioning events that promoters couldn't get sanctioned by the KCBS for whatever reason whether it was timing or cost.

We've seen organizations like the FBA and IBCA sanction their own events and be successful and it. That leads us to ask, what does the KCBS really offer us here in California?

Rules? We can use KCBS rules without sanctioning. We do it frequently now. And we can always come up with our own rules.

CBJ's? We could train our own judges and unlike KCBS we could institute continuing judges.

And with most of the people on board of the KCBS living within 100 miles of KC, I have to ask how much do our concerns matter?

So I think sanctioning does matter but I don't think it has to be KCBS. You can get to the Jack or the AR without being in a KCBS event.

G$
08-19-2007, 10:25 PM
I was having a conversation with some buddies last night and they asked me a question that I thought would be a good topic for the forum.

Is sanctioning of an event more important than the money?

If so where do you think the line is.

I told them that as an almost non-entity in the run for Grand or Reserve, I'd go for an event with a bigger prize pool over sanctioning.

Thoughts?

Really good question, and I think BigMista answered very well a little bit ago. I'm just thinking out loud here.

In my view, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, I'd rather have the prize money. The problem is, all other things aren't equal. Sanctioning, in many cases, ensures a better run, ostensibly fairer competition, which benefits everyone clearly. I know, apart from a rare occurences, KCBS sanctioning is going to ensure a fair, well administered contest.

There must come a point, however, when the "critical mass" of knowledgeable, capable people becomes available, and sanctioning becomes less important relative to the prize money.

I noticed, barbedQ, that you are from Tempe. I think our 'local' leadership is recently doing a very very very good job in growing the base, and I would trust them in running 'un-sanctioned' events. We (as a team) are not going to be able to compete in enough KCBS events to make season stats meaningful, and will never sniff GC in a giant event, so unsanctioned contests (that are both well run and well attended) seem a good fit.

I'm rambling. Again, thanks for the thoughtful question.

Plowboy
08-19-2007, 11:03 PM
We have been having a similar conversation on the CBBQA site. Our conversation has been a little more specific though. Our question has been what does the KCBS offer that we can't do ourselves? The CBBQA has been sanctioning events that promoters couldn't get sanctioned by the KCBS for whatever reason whether it was timing or cost.

We've seen organizations like the FBA and IBCA sanction their own events and be successful and it. That leads us to ask, what does the KCBS really offer us here in California?

Rules? We can use KCBS rules without sanctioning. We do it frequently now. And we can always come up with our own rules.

CBJ's? We could train our own judges and unlike KCBS we could institute continuing judges.

And with most of the people on board of the KCBS living within 100 miles of KC, I have to ask how much do our concerns matter?

So I think sanctioning does matter but I don't think it has to be KCBS. You can get to the Jack or the AR without being in a KCBS event.

But the question still remains, is it more the money or the sanctioning: KCBS, FBA, NEBS, CBBQA, or IBCA? I'm guessing the basis of the question is about attracting teams to an event.

SIDEBAR: I only know of four that live in the KC area. I'm not sure if all of these people are board members still.

Troy Black - no
Donna McClure - yes
Ed Roith - Yes
Rod Gray - yes
Paul Kirk - yes
Mike Lake - no
Don Harwell - no
Jim Minion - No
Merl Whitebrook - no
Wayne Lohman - ???
Linda Mulane - no

ThomEmery
08-20-2007, 07:58 AM
This really only come into play in the smaller contests
$3000 and below types
If you have $10,000 you have the $ to make it all happen

drbbq
08-20-2007, 09:08 AM
I'm always bothered by events that say we don't need KCBS, we'll just use their rules.

KCBS has built the circuit, sorted out the rules and now you'll just blow them off and use their rules and in many cases their scoring program without paying them? Seems wrong to me.

As for the original question, I'd say sanctioning is more important than money. I've seen many non-sanctioned events create a lot of bad blood.

G$
08-20-2007, 10:45 AM
I'm always bothered by events that say we don't need KCBS, we'll just use their rules.

I sort of agree with this, especially if the rules are literally lifted 'word for word'. However, KCBS did not invent food judging, table captains, weighted scores, etc.

For perspective, one thing some of the more seasoned competitiors here should know is that some folks, in some parts of the country, may have only 3 feasible contests a season. In this scenario, it really is a valid question to ask how valuable sanctioning is.

benjet
08-20-2007, 12:37 PM
I think the answer depends on who's answering it.

For those chasing ....... Jack draws, or invitations, then sanctioning is going to rate pretty high.

umm, pls explain this...where does sanctioning come into play here at all?

Plowboy
08-20-2007, 12:40 PM
umm, pls explain this...where does sanctioning come into play here at all?

You are right, it doesn't. State Championships not sanctioning. Thanks for correcting.

benjet
08-20-2007, 12:45 PM
sanctioning is going to ensure a fair, well administered contest.

As a contest organizer this is now 0 and 2 in my book. While I realize that others have not had the issues I have had, bottom line is that I, as an organizer now have very little faith left in the system that you as competitors are trying to tell me is the "right" way to do things.

This better be a good sell.

YankeeBBQ
08-20-2007, 12:47 PM
As a contest organizer this is now 0 and 2 in my book. While I realize that others have not had the issues I have had, bottom line is that I, as an organizer now have very little faith left in the system that you as competitors are trying to tell me is the "right" way to do things.

This better be a good sell.

What issues have you had ?

Diva
08-20-2007, 12:49 PM
As a competitor it's nice to know that we have a sanctioning body that has our back. What if an organizer (not you, this is hypothetical) says they have x amount of dollars in prize money and when the contestants get there they only have half of x. Sanctioning bodies, such as KCBS, have a letter from the organizer that states the amount of prize money that is to be given away at their contest and it's guaranteed. Rules and regulations set forth by the sanctioning body are used and enforced by representatives of the sanctioning body that are there to administer cooks/judges meetings and tally the scores.

benjet
08-20-2007, 12:50 PM
What issues have you had ?

I will be taking my list of issues up with the sanctioning body directly and will publicly air them after they have had a chance to respond, so far they have chosen not to.

Bentley
08-20-2007, 01:07 PM
Sanctioning bodies, such as KCBS, have a letter from the organizer that states the amount of prize money that is to be given away at their contest and it's guaranteed.


Where did you find this info?

The only thing I have ever seen at the KCBS site is this...It is from the Sanction Suggestions and Helpful Information

I’ve (1) Set the date,
(2) Applied for Sanction and approved,
(3) Paid the minimum sanction fee to be listed,
(4) Agreed to abide by KCBS Rules & Regulations,
(5) Furnish evidence of insurance, and
(6) Guaranteed the Purse.

Thats it, no rules regarding how this is accomplished.


No where do I see anything that spells out that a purse is guaranteed, and that if it is guaranteed how are the funds secured. I do not believe that KCBS has anything to do with coming up with funds if for some reason they are not available. If I am wrong, I would love someone to point out to me where KCBS spells out their specific guidelines for guaranteeing the prize money?

This is the link to the Sanction Suggestions and Helpful Information.
http://www.kcbs.us/sanction_suggestions.jsp

Maybe someone can show me in there where I am missing this fact, or if it is some where else they can point it out to me.

To me it comes down to who is promoting the contest. Do I know their background? I would not hesitate to enter a contest that Arlie puts on, just because I have been in ones he promotes, I know they are run correctly and that the money is there. I would be more concerned with who is running the event than who is sanctioning it. Now if you prefer a certain criteria of cooking, say KCBS or MIM or IBCA, then it is important as to what sanctioning rules are being used!

Merl
08-20-2007, 02:39 PM
I brought forward a motion to the KCBS Board last month to require on a web and the Bullsheet that we publish the following information.

1. Last years number and percentage of CBJ's
2. THE GUARANTEED PRIZE MONEY.

The motions did not go forward, due to errors in the office about posting the agenda. We cannot take votes on matters we do not publish in advance.

Therefore all three of the items which I posted for discussion and possible votes could not be considered. Hopefully next month the agenda will provide for an action request to consider this.

It would not surprise me if there was opposition to such a thing. I sincerely hope we can pass this.

I will let you know.
Merl Whitebook
KCBS Board of Directors.

PS you can call the office and ask what the guaranteed prize money letter states. It must be on file 90 days prior to the contest.

Bigmista
08-20-2007, 02:55 PM
Sanctioning bodies, such as KCBS, have a letter from the organizer that states the amount of prize money that is to be given away at their contest and it's guaranteed.

What type of letter is this? Is it from a bank or some other financial institution? Are the funds put into some kind of escrow account? I'm sure that the sanctioning body doesn't guarantee the funds themselves for all of the sanctioned events so I am curious as to how this works.

lazyjacres
08-20-2007, 02:56 PM
As a contest oganizer for a not for profit organization I was extremely worried about contest pay out, as I am not allowed to pay out more than we bring in, in case of a short roster.
I asked the question to KCBS and my understanding is that if you advertise a specific pay out amount, you have basically guaranteed that amount of money.
For the first couple of years my pay out increased as the number of teams increased, so I could not advertise a pay out amount. I did not sanction the contest for the first 3 years.
The contest has grown to a full field on 25 (that's all the room I have) and it is sanctioned with a promised purse.

lazyjacres
08-20-2007, 03:03 PM
What type of letter is this? Is it from a bank or some other financial institution? Are the funds put into some kind of escrow account? I'm sure that the sanctioning body doesn't guarantee the funds themselves for all of the sanctioned events so I am curious as to how this works.

As a KCBS contest organizer, I have never seen this letter, or submitted one.

MoKanMeathead
08-20-2007, 03:16 PM
I was having a conversation with some buddies last night and they asked me a question that I thought would be a good topic for the forum.

Is sanctioning of an event more important than the money?

Thoughts?

To anser the original question - what is important to me is if the contest is a qualifier. The money is nice but if I should luck into a GC I want to know that I will be invited to the GAB and the ARBBQ and have a chance at the Jack. The invitationals and the Jack draw are my goals every year!!

benjet
08-20-2007, 03:27 PM
I brought forward a motion to the KCBS Board last month to require on a web and the Bullsheet that we publish the following information.

1. Last years number and percentage of CBJ's
2. THE GUARANTEED PRIZE MONEY.


I'm not sure I understand this...
1. Last years number and percentage of CBJ's - are we talking about in the KCBS organization (members), or present at contests? or ....?
2. I assume you mean this for each contest.

Transformer BBQ
08-20-2007, 03:41 PM
he's talking at a single contest...

Like:
Harpoon 2006 (39/42 93% CBJ) CG: $1600 RGC: $600 total $7000


(I made this up... but I believe thats' the idea)

The Giggler
08-20-2007, 04:01 PM
We are reluctant to enter a contest without Sanctioning. Like any other sport, there are rules and a governing body. We like knowing what's expected of us a competitor, and also that the same rules apply to everyone else.

Our experience has been limited to KCBS Sanctioned Events. Regardless of results or placement, the contests have been well run and organized. We traveled home celebrating what we might have done well, and also wondering what we can do to get those extra points from Judges the next go around - all of which is governed by the rules.

Mike.

butts a fire
08-20-2007, 04:15 PM
That is an interesting question. I have only entered KCBS sanctioned contests so I have no basis on what would go on at other contests, that being said If I were to find out about an unsactioned contest using KCBS rules because they are what I am used to I would probably enter it unless there was an equal sanctioned event that same weekend.

Plowboy
08-20-2007, 04:25 PM
The two non-sanctioned events that I do each year have "different" rules from the KCBS rules that I'm used to. I'm okay with that, but the one contest kinda makes it up as they go. I'm not really sure how they score it and they don't give results at the end. Just 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. But, the money is good if you hit top 3, so whatever. Its okay, but I wouldn't do a lot of them... then again, I'm in a part of the country where I have 2-4 sanctioned contests of my choice any given weekend within 3-4 hours drive. I probably also have 400 or more teams living in the same radius.

G$
08-20-2007, 05:19 PM
....then again, I'm in a part of the country where I have 2-4 sanctioned contests of my choice any given weekend within 3-4 hours drive. I probably also have 400 or more teams living in the same radius.


Here is my version, you lucky dog:

"I'm in a part of the country where I have 0-2 sanctioned contests of my choice any given CALENDAR YEAR within 3-4 hours drive."

As I stated above, this is getting better however.

Bigmista
08-20-2007, 06:17 PM
We are growing here in California but a lot of the contests are smaller events that are sanctiond by CBBQA or IBCA because it's easier and cheaper. If we only had KCBS sanctioned events in California, we would only have 5 contests a year. Now we have 3 times that many and that doesn't include our no-fee, backyard contests with baked goods as the prizes.

jminion
08-21-2007, 08:46 AM
I know of 3 events last season that because the organizer was not seeing the turn out they wanted a couple of weeks before the contest they wanted to lower the prize money. In each case KCBS informed the organizer that we would pull sanctioning if total advertized dollars were not paid.

As someone who is involved in organizing 6 contests (WBBQA 501c 4 corp)
our prize money overall has increased each year and we do not use entry fees for the prize pool.

I see another sanctioning body holding Sate Championships with prize money of $1500 to $2500 with low turnouts and if you win the contest you don't cover your costs of competing. Broken scoring systems that can not be trusted to generate correct final results. In many cases you get what you pay for.

Jim

jminion
08-21-2007, 08:48 AM
I'm not sure I understand this...
1. Last years number and percentage of CBJ's - are we talking about in the KCBS organization (members), or present at contests? or ....?
2. I assume you mean this for each contest.

1. The number of CBJs at the contest the year before.

2. That is correct, dollars for each contest.

Countryhb
08-21-2007, 10:30 AM
The only important thing to me is how much fun is it gonna be! Oh, and is there going to be any reporters! :biggrin:

jtfisher63
08-21-2007, 10:53 AM
Here's my take, it depends on who the promoter is. First off, here in California it isn't too likely that we would even have the option to pick between a sanctioned and non sanctioned event on the same weekend. If we did it would depend on the amount of difference in money and who the promoter is. If the promoter seemed shady I'd more than likely pick the sanctioned event even for less money. What good is having a big purse if the rules and promoter are shady. Being sanctioned obviously doesn't guarantee a completly fair contest, but I feel it is most likely to be. We are competing for CBBQA rookie team of the year also, so that is considered somewhat. If there was a non sanctioned event put on by a promoter that I trusted (Benjet) I would pick it over a lower purse santioned event possibly. I guess each event would have to be considered and I couldn't say exactly what I would do without knowing the details of that peticular event. MY $.02.

Jason

Bentley
08-21-2007, 10:56 AM
I see another sanctioning body holding Sate Championships with prize money of $1500 to $2500 with low turnouts and if you win the contest you don't cover your costs of competing. Broken scoring systems that can not be trusted to generate correct final results. In many cases you get what you pay for.

Jim


I agree Jim you do get what you pay for! So if you have a KCBS contest and you are paying for two reps and a computer and scoring system, and you happen to only get one rep and the KCBS computer and scoring system breaks and you have to use a CBJ's computer, should you get a refund on some of your KCBS fees?

What about a contest where the two KCBS reps end up judging? Is that in the KCBS guidelines?

Who aduits the results for a contest? Are there any checks and balances that KCBS conducts to ensure that a printed result on a final tally sheet is the same as what was on the CBJ's scoring card?

jminion
08-21-2007, 02:16 PM
I agree Jim you do get what you pay for! So if you have a KCBS contest and you are paying for two reps and a computer and scoring system, and you happen to only get one rep and the KCBS computer and scoring system breaks and you have to use a CBJ's computer, should you get a refund on some of your KCBS fees?

What about a contest where the two KCBS reps end up judging? Is that in the KCBS guidelines?

Who aduits the results for a contest? Are there any checks and balances that KCBS conducts to ensure that a printed result on a final tally sheet is the same as what was on the CBJ's scoring card?

Bentley
Your contests down in CA and ours up in the PNW have the same situation as far as size of contests and the remoteness from the rest of the BBQ world. We always have two Reps, we pay to bring in outside Reps to some of the contests as example Merl and carol will be Salem this weekend.
Why would you only have one?
if a small contest having a Rep in Training min would be suggested by me anyway.

The Reps should not be judging but as a Rep you do what is needed to get the job done.

We requirer that score cards and disc be sent into KCBS office for auditing purposes.

Merl
08-21-2007, 04:37 PM
In answer to the questions:
The KCBS sanctioning by our rules, requires a letter signed by someone who is going to stick their neck out guaranteeing the prize money. It is not escrowed nor is a letter of credit. In the event of a breach, then two things can happen. The contestants have a cause of action against the organizer who signed the letter. And KCBS will not sanction again without CASH in the bank.

As to the percentages of CBJ's that is per contest. When you would look at a contest, the information as to last year would be posted.

As to the Organizer who did not sent a letter guranteeing the prize money, I would appreciated a e-mail so I can find out why the Office did not raise this issue.

I hope this helps.
Merl Whitebook

RevRuss
08-21-2007, 08:03 PM
In SC there are 4 KCBS events a year. Because I have to be home every Sunday morning I am limited to close by events. The South Carolina Barbeque Association judges (not sanctions) about 35 events a year, allowing me to judge or cook most weekends. Our goal is the cook 3 or 4 KCBS events a year in SC and GA. BTW in SC we cook whole hog.

Bentley
08-21-2007, 10:02 PM
Bentley
Your contests down in CA and ours up in the PNW have the same situation as far as size of contests and the remoteness from the rest of the BBQ world. We always have two Reps, we pay to bring in outside Reps to some of the contests as example Merl and carol will be Salem this weekend.
Why would you only have one?
if a small contest having a Rep in Training min would be suggested by me anyway.

The Reps should not be judging but as a Rep you do what is needed to get the job done.

We requirer that score cards and disc be sent into KCBS office for auditing purposes.


I think you missed my point Jim!

jminion
08-22-2007, 12:29 AM
Bentley
I don't believe there would be a refund but if I were the Rep I would not have billed the $50 computer fee to the organizer.

Bentley
08-22-2007, 11:59 AM
Bentley
I don't believe there would be a refund .

So your paying for 2 Reps and a valid scoring system and you dont get either and you dont believe there would be a refund. Do you still think that promoter got their monies worth from KCBS?

jminion
08-22-2007, 12:25 PM
Bentley
I don't know the problem you are speaking of so it's hard to give you a concrete answer. The $300 sanctioning fee pays the Reps, if they use their own computer they have the right to charge $50. In the case as you have discribed it I would not have charged the $50. Reps carry the program with them and it can be loaded on another computer if problems come up.

Now if you would like to discuss what happen I would be happy to, but you know what the story & and I don't.

leanza
08-23-2007, 11:01 AM
Very intresting discussion.