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Sawdustguy
07-01-2007, 09:12 PM
Our chicken entry and how it was scored at Rock 'n Ribfest


Taken from Pigtrip.net 6-28-2007

Can you fry chicken at a BBQ contest?

The most interesting entry in the chicken category looked more like something from General Gau (who’s never been seen in the same room at the same time as General Tso) than something from a barbecue contest. All of the judges silently wondered whether the six thighs were smoked or fried or something in between. They had a light coating of egg wash and flour that enabled them to retain a crisp skin. The rub was unique, with lots of cinnamon, and the faint coating of sauce had a coconut flavor. Highly unusual, but evidently legal. As long as they used wood and smoke and not oil, this was fair game. The flavor was good and the tenderness of the meat was perfect. Usually an entry does well across the board or poorly across the board, with the three scores for appearance, taste and tenderness not necessarily identical but somewhat close. This was a rare example of a 5-7-9 score from me. I don’t think it had a chance to win, but I really enjoyed that chicken and give props to the team for submitting something creative and different.

Should the scores for each entry be similar?

That chicken entry and the unusual way I scored it reminded me of a discussion I overheard the very first time I judged. One of the judges was questioning the credibility of another judge who scored an entry a 9 for tenderness but a 7 for taste, or vice versa. His argument was that if one category deserved a similarly high score, so did the other. I disagree. Take the most perfect ribs (or chicken, or whatever) imaginable. They’d deserve a 9 for taste and a 9 for tenderness. What if those same ribs were pulled from the smoker 90 minutes earlier or 90 minutes later? The tenderness would be shot either way, but the taste would be the same and still deserve a 9. Take those imaginary perfectly cooked ribs, add an extra cup of black pepper and baste them with the fishy water from a can of tuna. The taste would be shot, but the tenderness would be the same and still deserve a 9. I know competition cooks who lament that they’ve cooked two briskets, one with great taste and iffy texture and the other with great texture but a little off on taste. Taste and tenderness are separate categories for a reason.


PS: We will no longer cook chicken in this fashion. I guess being a conformist will ultimately score higher. Even though the author admitted that the chicken tasted good and was cooked perfectly, he chose to score it poorly because it was not red in color.

Bigmista
07-01-2007, 09:26 PM
You tried this again?

MilitantSquatter
07-01-2007, 09:26 PM
Guy - with a 5th place finish overall, how did your chicken place ??

I would not let one score get you down as the lowest score gets dropped, unless everyone gave it horrible scores...


The Polocks have become semi famous for their "fried chicken"....but you must do what is best.

Sawdustguy
07-01-2007, 09:48 PM
Vinny,

We placed 2nd in Brisket, 4th in ribs, 8th in Pork and 26th in chicken. If we placed higher in chicken who knows what would have happened. It doesn't matter. It's just a barbecue contest and we are not sore in the least. This is not a knock on judging either. It's just one judges commentary on our chicken. We spoke to the gentleman after the contest and he explained why he judged the way we did. He had solid reasons why he judged the way he did and even though we didn't agree, we felt he was genuwine. He is actually the first real judge feedback we have ever had and like it or not he shared his reasons why. For that we are very thankful. So much for creativity. He shared the facts that at the judges table: If it doesn't look like BBQ, smell like BBQ or taste like BBQ it won't be judged highly. In short, it can't look like fried chicken. It has to have a red BBQ sauce and we heard him loud and clear. It took a few times but we learned our lesson. Thick headed Polock mod.

Sawdustguy
07-01-2007, 09:57 PM
You tried this again?

Yea, I know, us thick headed Polocks! This thread is actually the death rattle for that recipe. There will be no more, World Famous in Long Island, Two Fat Polocks BBQ Fried Chicken. RIP. We are working on a new but more conventional recipe.


Das recipe ist Kaputski!

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Jeff_in_KC
07-01-2007, 10:37 PM
Guy, did you not get my PM last week??

Jorge
07-01-2007, 10:48 PM
Can I have the recipe now?8-)

Sledneck
07-01-2007, 10:57 PM
I can sell ya a recipe for GUARANTEED 13th place chicken

Sawdustguy
07-01-2007, 11:43 PM
Guy, did you not get my PM last week??

Yes Jeff, thank you!:biggrin:

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
07-02-2007, 05:42 AM
Very interesting thread Guy. Thanks for posting it.

The way I was taught in the judging class to judge chicken might influence the way that recipe scores.

The first time a judge sees it, it is one of six boxes opened and passed in front of each judge by the table captain. You only get a hands-off view of it. I would imagine that some judges would have a hard time figuring out how to score it for appearance if it doesn't look like "bbq chicken" as that has traditionally been defined. That being the case, one would be tempted to not score it high for appearance in that it doesn't appear to look like bbq chicken. That score is put down on the card before anyone tastes it and can not be changed once it is tasted.

Once all six entries are on the serving "plate" each entry is tasted in the order they were given out. I was taught to pull back the skin and taste the chicken and give it a mental score for taste. Then the skin is to be tasted. If it adds something to the taste, add a point. If it distracts from the taste, deduct a point. The tenderness/texture score does not relate to the skin/coating.

You are probably aware of all of this, but I can see how the process of judging could infuence the scoring of this recipe much more than it would with a more conventional recipe.

I wish I would have had the chance to try it. Sounds like I would like it a lot.

Edit: Well hell, I just saw that you took the judging class too, so you know all of this already. Oh well, I was just trying to be helpful

Sawdustguy
07-02-2007, 05:50 AM
I can sell ya a recipe for GUARANTEED 13th place chicken

Steve,

After the contest, Gary and I were talking about the contest and how much we enjoyed it. I said to Gary, you know if Steve was here, we could have come in 13th for chicken. :biggrin:

BBQ_Mayor
07-02-2007, 06:38 AM
[quote=Sawdustguy;420772]Our chicken entry and how it was scored at Rock 'n Ribfest


Taken from Pigtrip.net 6-28-2007

Can you fry chicken at a BBQ contest?

The most interesting entry in the chicken category looked more like something from General Gau (who’s never been seen in the same room at the same time as General Tso) than something from a barbecue contest. All of the judges silently wondered whether the six thighs were smoked or fried or something in between. They had a light coating of egg wash and flour that enabled them to retain a crisp skin. The rub was unique, with lots of cinnamon, and the faint coating of sauce had a coconut flavor. Highly unusual, but evidently legal. As long as they used wood and smoke and not oil, this was fair game.


quote]


I don't know if there is a rule that states you can't use oil. As long as you cook using wood, charcoal or pellets. My dutch oven will get oil hot enough to fry chickenc using charcoal as a heat source.
But your right, the judges expect to see traditional BBQ chicken. Color and all.

WannaBeBBQueen
07-02-2007, 07:23 AM
darn conformity...gets in the way every time...I hate that! Good Chicken is good chicken...will you still make it for friends???:mrgreen:

Kirk
07-02-2007, 07:26 AM
I don't know if there is a rule that states you can't use oil.
There is. Meat can't be boiled and it can't be fried.

The_Kapn
07-02-2007, 07:49 AM
There is. Meat can't be boiled and it can't be fried.

From the KCBS Rules:

"Parboiling and/or deep-frying competition meat is not allowed."

Various definitions of "deep frying":

Method of frying food by immersing it in hot fat or oil.
www.recipegoldmine.com/glossary/glossaryD.html (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://www.recipegoldmine.com/glossary/glossaryD.html&usg=AFQjCNGjTzt3yRi7i4s1ySSlvTkWfyRi1g)
is cooking in hot fat deep enough to submerge the food.
arthuravenuebronx.com/cooking_vocabulary.htm (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=1&oi=define&q=http://arthuravenuebronx.com/cooking_vocabulary.htm&usg=AFQjCNFnlWhqYWzq1a-sS3fJ40U924AkMw)
Cooking food by totally immersing it in heated cooking oil or fat.
www.glencoe.com/sec/busadmin/marketing/dp/rest_mgmt/gloss.shtml (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=2&oi=define&q=http://www.glencoe.com/sec/busadmin/marketing/dp/rest_mgmt/gloss.shtml&usg=AFQjCNFOlSeDaNn-7w_VtaZrKbQIJRlhWA)
Deep frying is a cooking method whereby food is submerged in hot oil or fat. It is an extremely fast way to cook. Despite the use of liquid oil, it is best classified as a dry cooking method. Deep frying originated in Africa.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_frying (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=3&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_frying&usg=AFQjCNHsCE20DFEF3nWbUtLnrr2zlGjRFw)
--------------------------------

TIM

Westexbbq
07-02-2007, 09:05 AM
The infamous Pollack "fried chicken" recipe may be kaputski for comps, but it will live on in many backyards across this great land of ours.!

I am using my variation of Guy's recipe this Wednesday along with some other tasty treats.
Happy Birthday America!

ModelMaker
07-02-2007, 09:22 AM
Too bad, as a judge I think I could look past the fried look. I just love different ways to make BBQ. After the first fiasco I assume you were in touch with the contest rep beforehand to assure them it was indeed BBQ.
At that point he should have informed the table captain of it's uniqueness and instructed him/her to pass that info along to the judges. After that it should be able to stand up to its own merit.
I live for the day somebody gets the cojones to serve up some wings cooked in a like manner. I shall respond in a grand fashion if they are indeed as good as they should be.
ModelMaker

Original post W/recipe
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19279&highlight=fried+chicken

BBQ_Mayor
07-02-2007, 09:57 AM
From the KCBS Rules:

"Parboiling and/or deep-frying competition meat is not allowed."

Various definitions of "deep frying":

Method of frying food by immersing it in hot fat or oil.
www.recipegoldmine.com/glossary/glossaryD.html (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://www.recipegoldmine.com/glossary/glossaryD.html&usg=AFQjCNGjTzt3yRi7i4s1ySSlvTkWfyRi1g)
is cooking in hot fat deep enough to submerge the food.
arthuravenuebronx.com/cooking_vocabulary.htm (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=1&oi=define&q=http://arthuravenuebronx.com/cooking_vocabulary.htm&usg=AFQjCNFnlWhqYWzq1a-sS3fJ40U924AkMw)
Cooking food by totally immersing it in heated cooking oil or fat.
www.glencoe.com/sec/busadmin/marketing/dp/rest_mgmt/gloss.shtml (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=2&oi=define&q=http://www.glencoe.com/sec/busadmin/marketing/dp/rest_mgmt/gloss.shtml&usg=AFQjCNFOlSeDaNn-7w_VtaZrKbQIJRlhWA)
Deep frying is a cooking method whereby food is submerged in hot oil or fat. It is an extremely fast way to cook. Despite the use of liquid oil, it is best classified as a dry cooking method. Deep frying originated in Africa.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_frying (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=3&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_frying&usg=AFQjCNHsCE20DFEF3nWbUtLnrr2zlGjRFw)
--------------------------------

TIM

I stand corrected. Thanks for the information.

barfly
07-02-2007, 11:01 AM
Yea, I know, us thick headed Polocks! This thread is actually the death rattle for that recipe. There will be no more, World Famous in Long Island, Two Fat Polocks BBQ Fried Chicken. RIP. We are working on a new but more conventional recipe.


Das recipe ist Kaputski!

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

I don't care what the judges say, that chicken was fantastic! Please don't make it kaputski!!

Paola Greg
07-02-2007, 02:12 PM
Odd as it may seem, 'fried chicken' is a legal KCBS entry as long as the heat source is per the rules. This was confirmed by the BOD last year and published in a statement in the Bullsheet.
The Board did not change the rule for 2007 that disallows 'deep frying' but that does not disallow 'frying',,,,

ole'e
07-02-2007, 03:24 PM
Can you not then pan fry chicken over a wood fire? I know you can not deep fry chicken?

WalterSC
07-02-2007, 03:59 PM
Ok any judge worth the title would judge your turn in as presented I know I do . I looked at the pics I would have no problem with that.

Jeff_in_KC
07-02-2007, 05:37 PM
Hell, I can get a "fried" look by coating the skin with olive oil and cooking skin side down directly over fire.

Sawdustguy
07-02-2007, 06:00 PM
Ok any judge worth the title would judge your turn in as presented I know I do . I looked at the pics I would have no problem with that.

I wish all judges were like you. Thats how I try to do it also.

Pigs on The Run
07-03-2007, 11:22 AM
This was a great read. I enjoy the desire to be creative. I know in different regions some things work well. I bet your bbq fried chicken would work well in the deep south, maybe. I do know thjat BBQ is a bout tradition and people love familar things. I tried a green bean vinergrette in my catering business : the women loved it and the men hated it. Go figure. When I compete, I want to win, If bbq fried chicken wins , i will do it .But if not I wont. Congrats on trying new things. You have put a lot of money in this BBQ thing . I wish you continous success.
John
Hope to see you at new holland

LostNation
07-03-2007, 11:56 AM
Guy,

I usually stay out of the judge bashing threads. I'm a judge.

I don't think your scores were to bad remember that the multiplier makes taste the most important (you got a 7X2.2858=16.0006) tenderness second most important (you got a 9X1.1428=10.2852) and appearance is third most (you got 5X.5714=2.857). 29.1428 Not a bad score.

I don't know what your point is? If it's the appearance score then you must ember that it's a barbecue contest, not a prettiest chicken in the box. If it's a taste score then remember it's a barbecue contest, most people don't think of cinnamon and coconut when you think of BBQ.

When you judge how do you score different boxes or unusual flavors for barbecue? I know if I had a chicken entry that tasted like cinnamon I'd score it down, I hate cinnamon

Pigs on The Run
07-03-2007, 01:55 PM
How about maple syrup?:-D

LostNation
07-03-2007, 04:47 PM
How about maple syrup?:-D

Thats what I'm talking about. Sugar Maple is a great wood to smoke with and Maple syrup is a complementary flavor to go with it. Especially in Northern New England.

jbrink01
07-03-2007, 05:18 PM
[quote=Sawdustguy;420795]Vinny,

It's just a barbecue contest quote]

Your kidding right?

Sawdustguy
07-03-2007, 05:57 PM
Guy,

I usually stay out of the judge bashing threads. I'm a judge.

I don't think your scores were to bad remember that the multiplier makes taste the most important (you got a 7X2.2858=16.0006) tenderness second most important (you got a 9X1.1428=10.2852) and appearance is third most (you got 5X.5714=2.857). 29.1428 Not a bad score.

I don't know what your point is? If it's the appearance score then you must ember that it's a barbecue contest, not a prettiest chicken in the box. If it's a taste score then remember it's a barbecue contest, most people don't think of cinnamon and coconut when you think of BBQ.

When you judge how do you score different boxes or unusual flavors for barbecue? I know if I had a chicken entry that tasted like cinnamon I'd score it down, I hate cinnamon

Rich,

Reread my posts. I am in no way sore at any judge. As a matter of fact we were all thankful that this gentlemen stopped by and was genuine. He pretty much told us that based on the appearance of the chicken it would be difficult to win because it is not bathed in red BBQ sauce. My point of this whole thread is that we are barking up a wrong tree by pursueing this recipe. If we want to be competitive we have to be more conventional in our turn-in. Bash this guy? No way, he gave us the best feedback we have ever recieved. We may not have done well but he shared with us why and for that we are greatful. Rich, reread posts 1, 4 and 5. I don't believe in Judge bashing because I am a CBJ also.

redaub
07-03-2007, 06:54 PM
I pulled and sauced my chicken in our last comp. 50 trays of thighs and one shredded. Was that dumb or what? I think I'll try the hot wings in the next one. I figure that eventually you'll find a table that shares your taste. If you think it's on, leave it alone. Conformity is boring. Everyone else has a shiny red thigh; I would think that the judges would appriciate something unique. But then again, I'm not that bright.

LostNation
07-04-2007, 05:12 AM
Rich,

Reread my posts. I am in no way sore at any judge. As a matter of fact we were all thankful that this gentlemen stopped by and was genuine. He pretty much told us that based on the appearance of the chicken it would be difficult to win because it is not bathed in red BBQ sauce. My point of this whole thread is that we are barking up a wrong tree by pursueing this recipe. If we want to be competitive we have to be more conventional in our turn-in. Bash this guy? No way, he gave us the best feedback we have ever recieved. We may not have done well but he shared with us why and for that we are greatful. Rich, reread posts 1, 4 and 5. I don't believe in Judge bashing because I am a CBJ also.

Guy,

I stand corrected and apologize, I often don't read all the posts and thought the way you posted with the the scores and with the comments you were judge bashing. That's a very popular activity in the summer.

Sawdustguy
07-04-2007, 06:06 AM
Rich,

No apologiy is needed. I've done the same thing sometimes. Your a good egg Rich. :biggrin:

rbsnwngs
07-04-2007, 06:45 AM
I love eggs

Muzzlebrake
07-04-2007, 06:19 PM
Thats what I'm talking about. Sugar Maple is a great wood to smoke with and Maple syrup is a complementary flavor to go with it. Especially in Northern New England.

how can you not like some cinnamon mixed in with that? it works great maple, apple, cherry and our our other northern hardwoods

Sawdustguy
07-04-2007, 08:08 PM
I love eggs

Willie,

You love anyone who will bring you beer.:biggrin:

CTSmokehouse
07-04-2007, 08:34 PM
Thats what I'm talking about. Sugar Maple is a great wood to smoke with and Maple syrup is a complementary flavor to go with it. Especially in Northern New England.


Rich you are right on in a big way!

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

Norcoredneck
07-05-2007, 06:51 AM
Since you are nixing the fried chicken care to share the recipe?

lunchlady
07-05-2007, 11:31 AM
I live for the day somebody gets the cojones to serve up some wings cooked in a like manner...

I hear ya there and that's too funny. It seems to me that there is much chatter about thighs being boring, but then, put something else in the box and that un-boring idea goes right out the window with your scores. Try breasts and suddenly they "look" dry, or someone once told you that breasts are ALWAYS dry...now it's affecting your appearance scores (no clue why though) and putting the 'dry' thought in the judges heads before they even eat the dang things. Do something fun, like your cinnamon or whatever, and then you get to deal with the subjective taste thing.
I'd like to read the definition of BBQ'd chicken.

We live to rebel, but after a year of 'creative' chicken, and the 'all over the place' scores that go with that, it can be SO discouraging.

So I guess my question is... do you still try to buck the norm and let the creativity flow, or do you go back to the same ole same old in hopes of placing better??

Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

Scottie
07-05-2007, 11:36 AM
I was told that judges up in Lake Placid wouldn't know what to do with good burnt ends... I didn't listen and had quite possibly the best burnt ends that I have ever made in comps... I think I finished around 15th place. I should have listened to Steve... ;-)

Good meeting you Michelle.

Scottie

lunchlady
07-05-2007, 11:40 AM
Good meeting you and your family too.

I wish someone had told me that there are supposed to be burnt ends in my pork box, according to the only comment card we got, they increase the flavor of the pork.
I hear ya on the burnt ends. We had some great ones as well. I don't know where they ended up since Gary pulled a Scott Proctor with the scoresheet. Maybe they are trying to pull them apart, or checking to see if they are the width of a #2 pencil???

I can't know.
We'll just try again...and again... and again.

YankeeBBQ
07-05-2007, 11:42 AM
I was told that judges up in Lake Placid wouldn't know what to do with good burnt ends... I didn't listen and had quite possibly the best burnt ends that I have ever made in comps... I think I finished around 15th place. I should have listened to Steve... ;-)

Good meeting you Michelle.

Scottie

Yeah but I was only kidding. We had burnt ends too and placed 16th. Oh well. What baffles me is the three 6's we got in appearance on our rib box. Somebody must have dropped our box that's all I can figure. We usually get very good appearance scores on ribs. We did do well with our red sauced chicken thighs though. It's not about what we like it's all about those judges.

Scottie
07-05-2007, 11:49 AM
3 6's? I think you had the same judge as me.... ;-)

I knew you were kidding, that's why I turned them in... And if nothing else, I was going to go down doing what I know how to do... I just can't figure out the sauce on the ribs... I used the same as yours... As I went to your rib demo.... ;-)

Q Haven
07-05-2007, 12:20 PM
No burnt ends....5th place brisket at LP. Glad I left em out....

YankeeBBQ
07-05-2007, 12:36 PM
No burnt ends....5th place brisket at LP. Glad I left em out....


Braggart !!!

Q Haven
07-05-2007, 01:35 PM
Was our only call, not a whole lot else to brag about....

Scottie
07-05-2007, 01:41 PM
No doubt... According to the scores, I was only there for the grilling contest... You can't find me anywhere for the KCBS portion...

As for burnt ends.. I will put them in my box at Harpoon too. I'm hard headed...

Q Haven
07-05-2007, 01:59 PM
Was great meeting you in Lake Placid Scottie!

YankeeBBQ
07-05-2007, 02:00 PM
Was great meeting you in Lake Placid Scotty!

ScottIE

LostNation
07-05-2007, 02:07 PM
I haven't found my scores, good thing, we $ucked. I calibrated the thermometers on the pit and the main one I use was 75* off. Thats fixed mow and we'll See how it works for Harpoon. My only best placing was 8th brisket with burnt ends.

Scottie
07-05-2007, 03:18 PM
Scores? I lost them for the KCBS portion... I managed to save the one's from the grilling contest though... Just to prove I was out there!!! ;-) Well, I do have some pretty cool pictures from the top of WhiteFace Mountain. Should also be one with Rich, me and the luge champ. Well, I guess me and Rich did take one with a pretty girl, as I think that is just standard for you, right Rich? ;-)

ique
07-05-2007, 03:26 PM
As for burnt ends.. I will put them in my box at Harpoon too. I'm hard headed...

I'm going to ignore the Lake Placid judges opinions and keeping doing what we do. That means burnt ends in my brisket box. Except maybe chicken, might change that up to try and avoid a third straight 13th place. My chicken good luck charm was no help in Lake Placid...

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ecjejhart/DSC_0065.jpg

Scottie
07-05-2007, 03:31 PM
I never change Chris... My stuff tastes the same from contest to contest. Just depends if I hit the right table or not... I figure I can end up anywhere from GC to 25th place...

I too pulled my chicken at 11:58 and it didn't do me any good either.... Then again, I didn't have that lucky chicken good luck charm either..