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HeSmellsLikeSmoke
06-21-2007, 05:00 AM
Can someone direct me to a link which gives information regarding judging at a KCBS event? I am looking for something that is more or less what you would get when you attend a judging class.

I looked on the KCBS site, but all I found was a little bit of info within the Competetion Cooks Rulebook.

LostNation
06-21-2007, 06:19 AM
I've cooked of helped with at least a half dozen classes ( I'm going to help Jim Boggs next weekend in Lake Placid) so this is my take.

The class runs about 3-4 hours. The first half the instructors (here in the North East it's Linda and Jerry Mullane) go over the KCBS rules and tell the perspective judges what the standards the cooks are cooking to. The last half of the class the judges are sampling food in a true KCBS judging environment and talking about and defending their scores.

It is worth an afternoon, if only to be around BBQ people.

kcpellethead
06-21-2007, 07:44 AM
Rich,

That's way cool that you have helped cook so many of those. Good news for you, starting July 1 the cooks will be compensated for their efforts. While I realize we don't cook these things for the money AND there will probably never be enough pay to compensate the cooks for time and effort, it's definitely a step in the right direction.

Rod

Jim - Your first and second sentence ask different things. The following is a link related to judging a KCBS event.

http://www.kcbs.us/kcbs_bbq_contest_judges_instructions.jsp

backyardchef
06-21-2007, 08:53 AM
Welcome, Rodney.....

Have you been to cattle call? :rolleyes:

Matt in NYC

Puppyboy
06-21-2007, 09:42 AM
I took the class a few months ago.

I got a certificate stating I was a KCBS member and another stating I was a CBJ. I aslo got a KCBS name tag bearing my judge number.

J Appledog
06-21-2007, 09:46 AM
Try this: http://www.kcbs.us/FormattedClassList.action?typeId=3&calendarID=3&forward=kcbs_barbecue_judging_classes.jsp

J Appledog
06-21-2007, 09:47 AM
Well, that didn't work. Click on where it says "classes" and then go to "judging classes".

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
06-21-2007, 01:14 PM
Jim - Your first and second sentence ask different things. The following is a link related to judging a KCBS event.

http://www.kcbs.us/kcbs_bbq_contest_judges_instructions.jsp

This link is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks :mrgreen:

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
06-21-2007, 01:16 PM
I've cooked of helped with at least a half dozen classes ( I'm going to help Jim Boggs next weekend in Lake Placid) so this is my take.

The class runs about 3-4 hours. The first half the instructors (here in the North East it's Linda and Jerry Mullane) go over the KCBS rules and tell the perspective judges what the standards the cooks are cooking to. The last half of the class the judges are sampling food in a true KCBS judging environment and talking about and defending their scores.

It is worth an afternoon, if only to be around BBQ people.

Rich, Thanks for this information. I have contacted Dmitry and may have a slot for the judging class in Lake Placid. If it all works out, I will see you there.

Jim

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
06-21-2007, 02:29 PM
Great!!!! Got my application in and everything seems all set for the Judging Class.

Thanks everyone for the information.

bonniesboytoy
08-14-2007, 02:45 PM
Besides age and membership, are there any other requirements (qualifications) to become a JUDGE??

Sawdustguy
08-14-2007, 03:15 PM
Besides age and membership, are there any other requirements (qualifications) to become a JUDGE??

No food allergies. Competitors use MSG and other stuff in their Que. Rather than take a chance, if you have a food allergy it is best to opt out. No one will think any less of someone who opts out of judging because of a food allergy.

KC_Bobby
08-14-2007, 03:46 PM
I have my judging class in 2 hours, I'm hungry and ready!

Puppyboy
08-14-2007, 04:23 PM
I have my judging class in 2 hours, I'm hungry and ready!
Bring a ziplock type baggy and a small cooler for leftovers.

bonniesboytoy
08-14-2007, 10:07 PM
Thanks Guy, the only thing I'm allergic to is GRILLED food....Tom..

KC_Bobby
08-14-2007, 10:54 PM
I passed! I'm a certified judge.:eusa_clap

Rookie'48
08-14-2007, 11:10 PM
Congrats, Bobby! Seein' as ya went there hungry and all, I'll just bet that the chicky scores were kinda high, then the scores settled down after the belly was fed a bit, right? When I took my class in April the same thing happened:mrgreen:. What did you think of the class, did it help like we talked about in Ankeney?
Dave

KC_Bobby
08-15-2007, 12:02 AM
The guy I used to cook with has been a judge for 3-4 years, so between that and cooking I kinda knew the basics of judging (starting at a 6 and going up and down from there, auto DQ's) but hearing first hand the rep, others questions, etc AND practice judging was interesting. I think the real advantage as a cooker will be actually judging out in the field to see and taste other's food AND observing and discussing with other judges.

As far as tonight's food - it's a shame they had to cook some of the food bad in order to get the class to think about why they gave the scores they did. Plus, I think the lighting was bad - most of the food looked yellowish. And it's true, we eat with our eyes first.

What I wasn't prepared for was when the instructor asked why one person kept giving very low score (commonly giving 2s through 4s) and when the person didn't really have a good answer other than saying I didn't think it was that good, the rep asked if she should she could do better. The classmate replied that she doesn't cook. :eek: Not as in not a competition cooker, but she doesn't cook period. :mad: At first it shocked me why someone who never cooks would want to judge cooking, but then realized people don't have to cook to enjoy eating. But in my perfect world, I think every judge should understand the process of barbequeing.

ZBQ
08-15-2007, 03:31 AM
The guy I used to cook with has been a judge for 3-4 years, so between that and cooking I kinda knew the basics of judging (starting at a 6 and going up and down from there, auto DQ's) but hearing first hand the rep, others questions, etc AND practice judging was interesting. I think the real advantage as a cooker will be actually judging out in the field to see and taste other's food AND observing and discussing with other judges.

As far as tonight's food - it's a shame they had to cook some of the food bad in order to get the class to think about why they gave the scores they did. Plus, I think the lighting was bad - most of the food looked yellowish. And it's true, we eat with our eyes first.

What I wasn't prepared for was when the instructor asked why one person kept giving very low score (commonly giving 2s through 4s) and when the person didn't really have a good answer other than saying I didn't think it was that good, the rep asked if she should she could do better. The classmate replied that she doesn't cook. :eek: Not as in not a competition cooker, but she doesn't cook period. :mad: At first it shocked me why someone who never cooks would want to judge cooking, but then realized people don't have to cook to enjoy eating. But in my perfect world, I think every judge should understand the process of barbequeing.

That is just plain FARKED UP!!!:evil:

Sounds like she is just scamming a ticket for free meals and who ever is unlucky enough to have their boxes judged by her will suffer since she obviously doesn't care about the actual competition.

She sounds like she has a preconceived notion about what Q is "supposed" to taste like and if it doesn't taste like that then it "isn't that good". Most likely baked or boiled ribs from some chain restaurant that she thinks are great.

She sounds like my FIL. When he said he didin't like something I fixed, I asked him what was it that he didn't like. Was it too salty, tough, too sweet, too spicy etc.

He just said "I don't know WHAT I didn't like. All I know is that I didn't like it.":roll:

WTF kind of answer is that!?!:mad:

Never asked again.

ZBQ
08-15-2007, 03:36 AM
Bring a ziplock type baggy and a small cooler for leftovers.

I have my judging class on the 23rd in Hermann MO.

Do all of the classes let you keep left overs?

Don't want to look like a fool walking in with a bunch of gallon baggies when there is nothing to take home.:roll:

KC_Bobby
08-15-2007, 08:23 AM
I didn't take anything home, some others did. Their was a little bit left, but not enough to bother with. That class has the same instructors as mine did last night, they'll let you take the food home in a turn in box if you wish. Just leave the cooler in the car for the ride home if you do take some food.

We judged 3 entries per catagory rather than 6 like a contest. But just a bit or two of the 12 samples (compared to 24) was enough to fill me up for dinner.

DawgPhan
08-15-2007, 08:47 AM
I had some folks stop by and talk to me at the GON Outdoor Blast last weekend. They had just finished up the KCBS judging class in Canton, Ga and mentioned something about not eating chicken skin. Well of course that got my interest and we started talking...Now I dont know if it was how it was explain or a misunderstanding or what, but they both felt like they should be taking the skin off of every piece of chicken and tasting it seperately and then discarding it. They were also told that chicken skin was supposed to be crispy. Both of those statements seem at odds with the rulebook. These were folks that had issue with eating chicken skin, but just thought that was what you were supposed to do. As far as being instructed that chicken skin is supposed to be crispy, when did that start? Is that one of the KCBS standards like the "half moon" bite on a rib or the "slight tug" on a slice of brisket?

It just seemed odd to me given the fact that there have been other reports of judge trainees being told to remove the chicken skin and reps telling teams to cook skinless because the judges are told to pull it off anyway.

KC_Bobby
08-15-2007, 10:03 AM
mentioned something about not eating chicken skin. Well of course that got my interest and we started talking...Now I dont know if it was how it was explain or a misunderstanding or what, but they both felt like they should be taking the skin off of every piece of chicken and tasting it seperately and then discarding it. They were also told that chicken skin was supposed to be crispy. Both of those statements seem at odds with the rulebook. These were folks that had issue with eating chicken skin, but just thought that was what you were supposed to do. As far as being instructed that chicken skin is supposed to be crispy, when did that start? Is that one of the KCBS standards like the "half moon" bite on a rib or the "slight tug" on a slice of brisket?


That's not what I heard from my instructor. They might want to clarify with their instructor or a KCBS rep before they judge again.

I heard something to the effect of "If the turn in is presented with skin, that's how the cook wants you to judge it. As a judge it's your duty to try the skin even if you do not normally eat it. You can discard the skin (rather than swallowing it) after you sample it for taste and texture, but don't score down on appearance, taste or tenderness because your personal preference is chicken without skin."

Our instructor also made it a point to make sure we knew that all judges are invited to retake the class at anytime (assuming they are in good standing with KCBS) for free as a refresher! This is something I think (as a cooker) should be mentioned by table captains and KCBS reps when appropriate to judges that turn in scores inconsistant with the rest of the table.

ZBQ
08-15-2007, 10:28 AM
Good info.

Thanks KC_Bobby!!:-D

I didn't take anything home, some others did. Their was a little bit left, but not enough to bother with. That class has the same instructors as mine did last night, they'll let you take the food home in a turn in box if you wish. Just leave the cooler in the car for the ride home if you do take some food.

We judged 3 entries per catagory rather than 6 like a contest. But just a bit or two of the 12 samples (compared to 24) was enough to fill me up for dinner.

Mo-Dave
08-15-2007, 10:59 AM
Our instructor also made it a point to make sure we knew that all judges are invited to retake the class at anytime (assuming they are in good standing with KCBS) for free as a refresher! This is something I think (as a cooker) should be mentioned by table captains and KCBS reps when appropriate to judges that turn in scores inconsistant with the rest of the table.

That sounds like an excellent idea.
Dave

eurycea
08-15-2007, 05:41 PM
It just seemed odd to me given the fact that there have been other reports of judge trainees being told to remove the chicken skin and reps telling teams to cook skinless because the judges are told to pull it off anyway.

Back in July there was a thread on the Virtual Weber forum that talked about this. One person stated :
"I was taught at KCBS judging class to pull back the skin and take a bite of the chicken first. Then to make a mental note of what I would score the chicken as far as taste. Next to take a bite/taste of the skin. If the skin does nothing for the taste, then score it as it tasted for the first bite. If it added to the taste, add a point. If it distracted from the taste, deduct a point. Lastly, do not consider the toughness of the skin in scoring."

Another judge (WSM/Rich Langer) said he doesn't consider the skin in regards to scoring tenderness. Another person said that judges are instructed not to consider skin in regards to tenderness. I was never taught any of these things.

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
08-15-2007, 06:19 PM
Back in July there was a thread on the Virtual Weber forum that talked about this. One person stated :
"I was taught at KCBS judging class to pull back the skin and take a bite of the chicken first. Then to make a mental note of what I would score the chicken as far as taste. Next to take a bite/taste of the skin. If the skin does nothing for the taste, then score it as it tasted for the first bite. If it added to the taste, add a point. If it distracted from the taste, deduct a point. Lastly, do not consider the toughness of the skin in scoring."


That person was me. Jerry Mullane was the instructor.

eurycea
08-15-2007, 06:48 PM
That person was me. Jerry Mullane was the instructor

Isn't Jerry the one that is telling teams to turn in skinless chicken?

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
08-15-2007, 06:51 PM
Isn't Jerry the one that is telling teams to turn in skinless chicken?

He said that chicken can be turned in either with or without skin, but as far as I remember, didn't express an opinion on which to turn in.

eurycea
08-15-2007, 08:03 PM
I believe it was at a recent contest where he told teams that listened to the cd that they should turn in skinless chicken because the judges are told to disregard it. At least I think it was the Mullane's that did that.

lunchlady
08-15-2007, 08:13 PM
I'm sorry but I don't believe that, unless it was in jest. Jerry is a fantastic instructor/rep.

If you didn't hear it FROM them personally, then you probably shouldn't be saying things like that. And if you did, then I apologize.

eurycea
08-15-2007, 09:08 PM
I'm sorry but I don't believe that, unless it was in jest. Jerry is a fantastic instructor/rep.

If you didn't hear it FROM them personally, then you probably shouldn't be saying things like that. And if you did, then I apologize.

I didn't hear it from him. It strikes me as a stong conincidence that he's been accused of teaching something in class that nobody else seems to be in regards to chicken skin and he's accused of telling teams things in cooks meetings that nobody else seems to be in regards to chicken skin. The point of my question and statement was to point out that one of the reps and judge trainees that Dawgphan was talking about was the same person - Jerry.

I'll edit my statement.

Its been said that at a recent contest he told teams that listened to the cd that they should turn in skinless chicken because the judges are told to disregard it.

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
08-16-2007, 05:30 AM
I didn't hear it from him. It strikes me as a stong conincidence that he's been accused of teaching something in class that nobody else seems to be in regards to chicken skin

Just to be clear. I did not accuse anyone of anything. I just passed on how I was taught to judge chicken. I have no idea what anyone else is teaching.

I totally agree with Michelle that Jerry is an excellent instructor and would encourage anyone to seek out one of his classes.

LostNation
08-16-2007, 07:04 AM
The point of my question and statement was to point out that one of the reps and judge trainees that Dawgphan was talking about was the same person - Jerry.


Jerry has never taught a CBJ class in Georgia. I asked him about the chicken skin issue and he flat out denied it. Jerry is a close friend and a true friend of BBQ. Don't you think he deserves the benefit of the dought instead of believing something someone thought they heard, reported and was embellished on a Internet forum?

DawgPhan
08-16-2007, 08:57 AM
Yeah I dont know who taught the class in Canton and I wasnt in the class. I was just relaying what the folks that took the class understood the rules to be after the class. The stating something a little different from what I believed the rule to be and it also jiving with some other reports about chicken skin and judges made an ear perk up...

It makes you wonder about the chicken category when it seems everyone spends so much time worrying about the skin...I wonder how I would do if I just turned i perfect chicken skin...

Scottie
08-16-2007, 09:31 AM
Define "perfect".... I think that is the real problem...

Scottie

eurycea
08-16-2007, 09:59 AM
Jerry has never taught a CBJ class in Georgia. I asked him about the chicken skin issue and he flat out denied it. Jerry is a close friend and a true friend of BBQ. Don't you think he deserves the benefit of the dought instead of believing something someone thought they heard, reported and was embellished on a Internet forum?

Dawgphan refered to "other reports". I have no reason to doubt what Jim said happened in his class. When I quoted Jim I had no idea Jerry was his teacher and when he said that he was I thought it was noteable since there have been other questions about him and chicken skin. I'm not trying to attack Jerry, I'm just pointing out that the instructor that Jim said told him to not consider chicken skin for judging tenderness is the same guy other people have said told teams that judges disregard chicken skin. Is it true? I don't know.

KC_Bobby
08-16-2007, 10:30 AM
Define "perfect".... I think that is the real problem...

Scottie

that and:
1) what's said vs. how it is understood
3) how something is understood vs. how someone describes it to a 3rd party
3) how the first 3rd party understands a statment and proceeds with the information

Remember playing telephone in kindergarden? Same thing applies through many communication channels as adults.

swamprb
08-16-2007, 06:36 PM
Took the KCBS Judging class from Jim Minion back in April.

Just got my CBJ badge and #22782
2 Comps judged so far.

3 cooking classes attended and at two of them(non KCBS) instructed us that judges prefer crisp skin and at the other gave instructions on how to do tender skin.

The two comps I've judged, I have yet to come across any skinless or crispy chicken.

My observations so far!

Brian