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View Full Version : Test Slips and Comment Cards your thoughts


Merl
05-07-2007, 07:13 PM
Bunny Tuttle has made a motion to terminate the test judging slip program and the judges comment cards.

This was a program which we began 4 weeks ago, in response to the comments by many cooks. A few very vocal members have demanded an end to the program. We do not even have 4 weeks of data to evaluate, and those who want to end the program have not seen any data.

I don't want to tell you what position to take, but I want more than few people with their personal opinions to rule what the members want.

Please write to the Board. Tell them to vote up or down as you believe will benefit you the cooks, you the judges, you the members.
The meeting is Wednesday night.
Thank you
Merl Whitebook

E-mail to the board

dharwell@kcbs.us (dharwell@kcbs.us), btuttle@kcbs.us (btuttle@kcbs.us), carolyn@kcbs.us (carolyn@kcbs.us), jminion@kcbs.us (jminion@kcbs.us), lmullane@kcbs.us (lmullane@kcbs.us), mlake@kcbs.us (mlake@kcbs.us), mwhitebook@kcbs.us (mwhitebook@kcbs.us), pkirk@kcbs.us (pkirk@kcbs.us), rgray@kcbs.us (rgray@kcbs.us), sownby@kcbs.us (sownby@kcbs.us), tblack@kcbs.us (tblack@kcbs.us), tstone@kcbs.us (tstone@kcbs.us), wlohman@kcbs.us (wlohman@kcbs.us)

MilitantSquatter
05-07-2007, 07:45 PM
Merl - Without knowing the background as to why anyone would want to do away with a pilot program only four weeks in is beyond me and makes it tough to make a decision...Can you possibly shed some light as to the reason Bunny Tuttle gave for making this motion ?...

What reasons have these "vocal members" given for abandoning a program ?

Politics at it's best... gotta love it... I give you credit Merl for trying to do the right thing... can't be much fun..

JohnMcD348
05-07-2007, 08:09 PM
What exactly was on these sheets? Is there a place where we can download or view them?

I agree, it seems odd that someone would want to end a program before it even gets started unless there is some other reason behind it.

bbqbull
05-07-2007, 08:11 PM
Merl, thanks for advising of this. Im not sure what this new pilot program entailes. Could you please advise us here.
That way we have a detailed information packet to think about and then decide whats going on.

Thanks again

Mike

Dustaway
05-07-2007, 08:32 PM
Merl,
Having only competed in one KCBS event Hammond where the comment cards were used I found them very useful, keep in mind that we only received comments in one category but it still was a help. I personally believe that some of the people don't like the comment cards because it helps the new teams too much in what the judges might be looking for?? I can't believe that if the comments are used correctly they can't but help?

BTW I hope do be able to do more KCBS events :-D

YankeeBBQ
05-08-2007, 10:05 AM
Some cooks believe the comment sheets and score descriptions are affecting the scores of the contest. Some cooks don't want to be guinea pigs for the new system, they are comfortable with the old one. Some cooks want to know which contests are testing the new system so they can decide whether or not they want to compete there. Some contest organizers want to know if they can opt out of the test. There are lots of questions out there and few answers. I think Bunny and some other board members are taking some heat. Maybe there wasn't enough thought put into this before it was decided to test the new system. I'm not saying this is how I feel but I've read others comments on the situation.

jminion
05-08-2007, 11:45 AM
Some cooks want to know why they get 7,8 or 9s from judges on a table and then 4s and 5s from another? There is the final scores from Kings Mountain where the overall score was down less than 2 points from 2006 but 11 points higher than the 2005 contest. When you look at scores from contests in North and South Carolina the scores at Kings Mountain are in line with the other contests and the rant posted on Basso forum was not based in any facts but a case of Chicken Little's the Sky is falling.

We have learned some interesting things from the few contests that have used the Beta score cards and comment cards and I can also see how we can raise scores by changing the word values for each score, without the test this information would be simply a matter of guessing.

Jim

Pig Headed
05-08-2007, 12:31 PM
I'm pretty new to the competition part of BBQ, but I can't see where this test has had a chance to be fairly evaluated in just 4 weeks. I say give it until the end of the season, then objectively evaluate it. This will enable the BOD to compare scores over the past and also regional trends. Some people resist any change. It disturbs their comfort level.

Paola Greg
05-08-2007, 01:06 PM
We haven't competed where the test judging slips have been used, so have no first hand comments. I've read the negative comments, and the positive ones. I really don't see how assigning a description by a number score could have a negative impact to any particular team where the same judging slips are used for all at the same contest.

With that said, I trust the Board to make the right decision. If the majority of them feel this change might be one that will improve scoring and consistency, (which I don't think is flawed), then I say keep up the test period. If the majority of them feel it does more harm than good and want to discontinue its use, then that is OK also.

Arlin_MacRae
05-08-2007, 03:41 PM
With my usual "I'm not a competitor, but" caveat, I have to think that they're just being resistant to ANY change - not that there's something wrong with the concepts of slips and judging cards.

Let me ask this: Is there a reason why you couldn't tell them something like "We govern this body and we will complete the test"? Are they so pig-headed, you think, that they'll LEAVE? And if they do, what are the consequences? If they're still obstinate you might remind them they are there for the cookers, not the other way around!

Arlin

Scottie
05-08-2007, 04:03 PM
Some cooks want to know why they get 7,8 or 9s from judges on a table and then 4s and 5s from another? There is the final scores from Kings Mountain where the overall score was down less than 2 points from 2006 but 11 points higher than the 2005 contest. When you look at scores from contests in North and South Carolina the scores at Kings Mountain are in line with the other contests and the rant posted on Basso forum was not based in any facts but a case of Chicken Little's the Sky is falling.

We have learned some interesting things from the few contests that have used the Beta score cards and comment cards and I can also see how we can raise scores by changing the word values for each score, without the test this information would be simply a matter of guessing.

Jim


I can see being able to use some data for beta testing. But do you feel that these score cards and comment cards could effect how a judge may score? If there is any chance that a judge may score differently because of the cards, then I don't think they should be only used at certain contests. I guess my thinking is all in or all out... Don't just use them at certain contests.

Scottie

lunchlady
05-08-2007, 04:14 PM
I honestly can't see that it would make that big of a difference if everyone at the same contest was judged using the same judging slips, I mean, so what if they are up against other events that aren't using the test slips. How many points difference are they talking...5? 20? 100? If I am wrong, someone let me know, but I didn't think they even used the actual scores from the event for KCBS ToY anyway. I know it will affect the overall 'how many points a team gets for cooking' thing.
According to the earliest of the 'analyzed data', most of the scores are really just about the same, Or at least in the same basic range as the scores in the past. Sometimes you just gotta go with it until the testing stage is over. I thought the reason that they changed them this time was because of the ranting on different forums about inconsistent judging. Now, the rant has changed it's color, yet again.

craziness... but I'll keep cooking... with or without the test slips or the comment cards.

BBQchef33
05-08-2007, 04:31 PM
Why would a comment change a score? I competed in a couple contests that used the comments cards. not every judge used them, and those that did only commented in a very generic sense. One "really enjoyed the teryaki flavor" on my chicken... which was interesting since there was no teriyaki in the recipe. Point is, i can not see anything negative coming out of using the cards. Personally, I would welcome legitimate feedback, good or bad and can only see it improving the end product by making us aware of the + or - of what were doing.

YankeeBBQ
05-08-2007, 05:09 PM
Why would a comment change a score? I competed in a couple contests that used the comments cards. not every judge used them, and those that did only commented in a very generic sense. One "really enjoyed the teryaki flavor" on my chicken... which was interesting since there was no teriyaki in the recipe. Point is, i can not see anything negative coming out of using the cards. Personally, I would welcome legitimate feedback, good or bad and can only see it improving the end product by making us aware of the + or - of what were doing.

A comment may not but the score sheets with the description next to the number might. As in (2) It's total Crap (3)It's pretty Lousy (4) Taste like something my mother in law might cook (5) Welcome to Applebees (6) Maybe this team has cooked a contest or two (7) This is worth getting off the couch to try (8,) Damn that's good (9) YankeeBBQ must have cooked this.

habenero
05-08-2007, 06:17 PM
As everybody knows KCBS judging needs help and the slips are making judging more consistent and credible. I am new to comp. cooking only because I have heard alot of stories about judging and the "obsolete"
points software. Been catering BBQ
since 2001. Lurking Basso's Forum since 1998. Entering only 3 contests so far this year has been fun, but confusing to me as a rookie. I think someone is afraid of progress(board members) and that something good will happen with the membership voting out whom ever is behind this jealous and stupid decision. A few board members are probably going to be packing early.
We Hope:
habenero

Stand behind Merl and Jim and quit straddling the fence. Can't you see the progress?

jminion
05-08-2007, 07:16 PM
Scottie
The Board passed a test to be used by only a few Reps and we wanted contests without the Beta scoring cards to have base info to compare.

Talking to many judges under the current judging system starting at 6 and judging up or down from there made 6 average in their mind. The Beta card states 5 is average but you still start at 6 and judge up or down, this may cause the judges to lower their scores because 5 is stated as average. If we move 6 to average, 7 above average, 8 to outstand and leave 9 at excellant I believe we would see the scores go up overall.

nancee
05-08-2007, 07:32 PM
<Please do not terminate this program. There are many of us who welcome any information we can obtain and have found this to be very helpful in improving or at least understanding the scoring of our turnins.
thank you
nancee gell
the purple turtle catering company>

Bigmista
05-09-2007, 02:23 AM
I like the idea of the comment cards and I look forward to competing in a contest that uses this system. The feedback can only be helpful in the long run.

Greendriver
05-09-2007, 08:40 AM
If I were voting on it right now, I would keep the definitions by the numbers and try and improve their wording and get rid of the comment cards.

Scottie
05-09-2007, 09:40 AM
Scottie
The Board passed a test to be used by only a few Reps and we wanted contests without the Beta scoring cards to have base info to compare.

Talking to many judges under the current judging system starting at 6 and judging up or down from there made 6 average in their mind. The Beta card states 5 is average but you still start at 6 and judge up or down, this may cause the judges to lower their scores because 5 is stated as average. If we move 6 to average, 7 above average, 8 to outstand and leave 9 at excellant I believe we would see the scores go up overall.


Jim,

I can't really argue with you, as I completely understand what the intent of the BOD is... Progress is good. Just my feeling is if certain reps have it they all should. It's that all in or all out attitude on my part I guess. To me and I obvioulsyt have no proof of this. But my thinking is it might effect the scores. If that is the case and it doesn't effect the scores at the other 200 contests that KCBS puts on, then it shouldn't be done. Now if everyone did it, I would support it. But in reality, I guess I am one of those that thinks nothing really needs to be done either though.

Keep up the progress in the KCBS Jim.

Scottie

QN
05-09-2007, 03:48 PM
Scottie
The Board passed a test to be used by only a few Reps and we wanted contests without the Beta scoring cards to have base info to compare.

Talking to many judges under the current judging system starting at 6 and judging up or down from there made 6 average in their mind. The Beta card states 5 is average but you still start at 6 and judge up or down, this may cause the judges to lower their scores because 5 is stated as average. If we move 6 to average, 7 above average, 8 to outstand and leave 9 at excellant I believe we would see the scores go up overall.

Hey Jim, Merl, and other KCBS members,
Can't we just get rid of the word AVERAGE (above average, below average, etc)? No one knows what it means anyway when it comes to barbecue. Can anyone clearly define what "average" barbecue is so that all cooks and judges will understand what constitutes average BBQ? Using your words above, if 6 is average and 7 is above average then is 5 below average? I would really like to know what "average" appearance is for a turn in box of competition barbecue and what would something "average" taste like and how something "average" would feel for tenderness and texture. Anybody want to try to come up with some standards for scoring "average"?

LostNation
05-09-2007, 04:48 PM
Mark, how about these word descriptions.

1—Disqualified
2- Inedible
3—Poor
4—Below Average>>>>TOLERABLE
5—Average>>>>>>>>>ORDINARY
6—Above Average>>>> DECENT
7—Very Good
8—Terrific>>>>>>>>>> EXCEPTIONAL
9-- Excellent

HoDeDo
05-09-2007, 05:34 PM
I have not had a chance to attend a contest with the new method/comment cards. I too, dont think it should be killed yet.

There are always going to be some folks that complain. I have to agree with Jim - rather than guess, lets look at the data - do some benchmarking and let it guide us. Let's not make rash decisions based on some flamers. I'm all for chipping in to get the rest of the reps "No Whining" lanyards :o) They can wave them in the faces of the teams that start the chicken little syndrome.

I would welcome the feedback, and as a judge, I dont see how the comment cards or the words on the judging sheet would effect my scoring. Focus is on the meat, not on the words on the card. Of course, I have not judged yet, but I plan to at some point this summer.

Merl and Jim - thanks for providing your input in the matter.

I trust you both will work with the BOD tonight to come to the right decision.
Thanks,
Andy

crackerjack BBQ
05-09-2007, 06:02 PM
We did a comp this year with the cards and found them helpful. It would have been even more helpful if we could match the comments to the judge's score.
I feel the more info you have the better and if you don't want to read the comments then throw them away.

MrsMista
05-09-2007, 07:40 PM
I think the people with problems are people with big egos. Seeing a number is one thing but having a tag associated with that number could leave a bad taste in the mouth of those who think they are the ultimate quers. From a female point of view, no man wants to be associated with the word average or below.

ryanositis
05-09-2007, 11:51 PM
I agree that it seems those with big egos are the least likely to want the comments. In my experience with the comment cards, I found the experience to be very positive.

Bigjim4x
05-10-2007, 09:09 AM
I only have only done 1 contest with the comment cards. I think it's a good idea. But the comments we got didn't make much since. One of them said our chicken needed to cook longer and they were over cooked. We let them go to 190 on accadent.

YankeeBBQ
05-10-2007, 10:15 AM
So Merl how about an update on this ? The meeting was last night right ? Will the test slips contunue to be used ? Any changes in the system at all ?

ModelMaker
05-10-2007, 12:22 PM
I still have a problem judging, using someone elses prefabricated words.
Everybody is certified so should be able to do the job as instructed, right?
I will remain flexible in my opinion until I've encountered the new cards.
ModelMaker

jminion
05-10-2007, 03:27 PM
At the meeting last night it was decided to continue the test, we are having conference call tonight to look at any changes we may wish.

Scottie
05-10-2007, 04:33 PM
Good luck with it Jim. Whichever way it works out...

Scottie

YankeeBBQ
05-11-2007, 06:39 AM
At the meeting last night it was decided to continue the test, we are having conference call tonight to look at any changes we may wish.

So how was the conference call ? Any changes ?

Merl
05-11-2007, 09:21 AM
The judging slips will be changed as follows:
(yes this is small step, we want to make small changes to track what is having an effect)

2- Inedible
3-Bad
4- Poor
5- Below Average
6- Average
7-Above Average
8- Very Good
9-Excellent

Do not be concerned about average still exisiting. As I said this is a progresion not the final. Please work with us. We will keep you posted on the progress. I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to share their opinion and thoughts with us.
Yours in BBQ
Merl Whitebook

eurycea
05-11-2007, 03:39 PM
This is probably a dumb question, but if a judge is aware of the definitions that go with the numbers and they're judging a contest w/o the definitions are they suppose to consider them or not?

I've always considered 6 above average, but now am I suppose to change even if I'm not using the new cards?

MilitantSquatter
05-11-2007, 07:36 PM
The judging slips will be changed as follows:
(yes this is small step, we want to make small changes to track what is having an effect)

2- Inedible
3-Bad
4- Poor
5- Below Average
6- Average
7-Above Average
8- Very Good
9-Excellent

Do not be concerned about average still exisiting. As I said this is a progresion not the final. Please work with us. We will keep you posted on the progress. I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to share their opinion and thoughts with us.
Yours in BBQ
Merl Whitebook

Merl - the word "Inedible" sounds a bit harsh .. I think if you have a "Very Good" you need to have "Good" as well.

Also "poor" and "bad" as 2 and 3 are barely distinguishable by definition. They could have been reversed and most probably would not second guess it.

I would rather see

2: Very Bad
3:Bad
4:Fair
5:Average
6:Good
7:Very Good
8:Excellent
9: Superior