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Solidkick
05-06-2007, 09:44 PM
Yep! T and I took the judging class this past weekend, taught by Ed Roith. I went into it thinking I would learn better as to what the judges are looking for, and came away shaking in my boots and even pissed off at some of the scores these new trainees were giving out. Mr. Roith was quick to tell them that their scores were low, and pointed out how much we spend in doing a contest and how we depend on them being honest with their scores. There was one table of gents that just cut everything down, and at one point T had to pretty much muzzle me as I was about to go off. This was average Q, just the way the cooks were instructed to cook it, average is a 6.....these guys were consistently giving out 4s & 5s, a few 3s even!:evil: I bet every one of these farkers use Matchlight or lighter fluid as they torch their T-bones in their backyards!:roll:

Now,do we cook average Q? I certainly hope not....but I don't have a warm fuzzy about this weekend's scores if these guys show up to judge, and everyone in the class was invited to sign up to judge.

So we have to face the facts, no matter who teaches the class or how well it is taught, there is going to be some judges out there that are only there to eat Q, fill up their coolers, and wreck our day! And they get a badge and a certificate that says they can!:evil:

Edit: Newspaper article link: All you see of me is the bill of my cap, T is on my right.

http://www.showmenews.com/2007/May/20070506News001.asp

Rookie'48
05-06-2007, 11:43 PM
Mr. Kick-
Having just taken the CBJ class last weekend, and having not judged a comp yet all I can say is 1: agree
2: agree
3: agree
etc.
BUT; I hope that we all ( myself included ) will try to be fair & above all to learn to be the best judges that we can be. I know that in the class that I took a few of us ( including me ) were pretty much told when & where we had screwed up on our scores. The instructor, Mike Lake, had us not only give some of our scores out loud to the class, but he made us justify them also. Then he gave his own feelings on that score & the reasons that he did/didn't agree with ours.
I realize that only time & experience will make me a decent judge, but, damn it, I'm gonna try my best and I hope that all of the other judges will do the same.
Dave
p.s. - they were all out of the large coolers at our class, how about at yours:icon_clown :biggrin: :?:

River City Smokehouse
05-07-2007, 02:50 AM
I hope this doesn't reflect what the judging is going to be like at Tiger Shrine next weekend.:confused:

Smokin Gator
05-07-2007, 06:30 AM
When I took the class a few weeks ago the instructor said again and again to start with a 7.5 (FBA) and assume that was average Q. He said that if it made the turn in requirements then you should not give it less than that unless there was a real problem. He also stressed the competitiveness of the pro teams and how your low scores could have a REAL impact on things.

I felt like those were good points.

lunchlady
05-07-2007, 07:08 AM
'low scores' always have a REAL impact, but.... regarding the competitiveness of the teams...the BBQ is what is being judged, not how much we care if we win or not.
We all will put out our best effort (hopefully) and then let judges take it from there.

Ron_L
05-07-2007, 07:19 AM
We had a few guys like that in the class I took and Mike Lake talked about it with them. We also had a fair number of guys who were giving average Q 9's as well. Either way it can skew the scores in a real competition.

JohnMcD348
05-07-2007, 10:07 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I think that new judges should be paired when at all possible with veteran judges. Unless the new judge is on a power trip and just wants to DQ someone, alot of the scores they give are probably just from lack of experience. When I took my CBJ class, had I not been around other judges who had been doing it for awhile and had they not talked to me about it after the class, I would have given alot of lower than deserved scores.

eurycea
05-07-2007, 10:33 AM
When I took my class there was one guy at my table who I don't think ever gave above a 5 and he was one of the only people in the class who had judged before. His wife was sitting next to him and she kept lowering her scores throughout the class so by the end she was right there giving out 3's and 4's. I've seen them at several contests since then and he was still doling out bad scores. Some people are just overly critical and hopefully KCBS can eventually weed them out.

BTW - since Mike McMillen was the contact for the class in Columbia does that mean the Boone County contest will be using CBJs this year?

Solidkick
05-07-2007, 12:06 PM
BTW - since Mike McMillen was the contact for the class in Columbia does that mean the Boone County contest will be using CBJs this year?

I'm pretty sure Mike will continue to use celebrity judges....

ModelMaker
05-07-2007, 12:35 PM
After my virgin year last year I feel qualified to speak on this issue. Just like anything else in life expierience comes with repetition. When you did your first cook was it perfect? Probably not, how many times did you cook a rack of ribs before they met your level of satisfaction?
Judging is just like that, you go in with a little knowledge and the rules, the rest you get from doing. Contest after contest you listen to the other expierienced judges hone your own skills and srive to do a better job than the last time.
Give the newbies a chance, they will get it or get out.
ModelMaker

Bellybro
05-07-2007, 01:32 PM
I knew that was your hat on the front page and T sitting next to you!!!

Jorge
05-07-2007, 02:22 PM
Yep! T and I took the judging class this past weekend, taught by Ed Roith. I went into it thinking I would learn better as to what the judges are looking for, and came away shaking in my boots and even pissed off at some of the scores these new trainees were giving out. Mr. Roith was quick to tell them that their scores were low, and pointed out how much we spend in doing a contest and how we depend on them being honest with their scores. There was one table of gents that just cut everything down, and at one point T had to pretty much muzzle me as I was about to go off. This was average Q, just the way the cooks were instructed to cook it, average is a 6.....these guys were consistently giving out 4s & 5s, a few 3s even!:evil: I bet every one of these farkers use Matchlight or lighter fluid as they torch their T-bones in their backyards!:roll:

Now,do we cook average Q? I certainly hope not....but I don't have a warm fuzzy about this weekend's scores if these guys show up to judge, and everyone in the class was invited to sign up to judge.

So we have to face the facts, no matter who teaches the class or how well it is taught, there is going to be some judges out there that are only there to eat Q, fill up their coolers, and wreck our day! And they get a badge and a certificate that says they can!:evil:

Edit: Newspaper article link: All you see of me is the bill of my cap, T is on my right.

http://www.showmenews.com/2007/May/20070506News001.asp

Stopped on your way home and bought a couple of coolers for the leftovers, didn't you?:wink: :twisted:

The_Kapn
05-07-2007, 02:25 PM
After my virgin year last year I feel qualified to speak on this issue. Just like anything else in life expierience comes with repetition. When you did your first cook was it perfect? Probably not, how many times did you cook a rack of ribs before they met your level of satisfaction?
Judging is just like that, you go in with a little knowledge and the rules, the rest you get from doing. Contest after contest you listen to the other expierienced judges hone your own skills and srive to do a better job than the last time.
Give the newbies a chance, they will get it or get out.
ModelMaker

Ditto!

A couple of things have changed with me since I put on my KCBS and FBA Judge's hat.
I am less apt to give "perfect" scores now as I see the truly outstanding entries come in. Basically, my standard for a perfect score has gone up a bit with exposure to true excellence. And--NO--that is not "comparitive judging".

I give fewer "really low" scores because I have realized they are not needed nor productive. But--when I judge "crap"--I score it as such and annotate the slip as to why I felt that way. On a couple of occasions, the REP was wandering around. AFTER scores were turned in, I showed them the poor entries, just for their information.

The "flip side" of scoring from the "low ball" judges is the "high ball" judges!
Unrealistically high scores given for whatever reason. :twisted:
When Dave (Chad) and I first competed at Mulberry, FL three years ago or so--some judges gave us 9.5's and 10's on some of our entries! Damn, that felt good! :lol:
We were convinced that all those mediorce scores were given by IDIOTS that should have their credentials pulled!
Ya know what?
The mediocre scores were what we earned!
The "high ball" judges were simply lying to us--plain and simple!

The system is not perfect by any means.
I know KCBS (especially Bro Jim Minion) is working hard to make it better. The same as Kevin and all the FBA BOD are working on leveling the scoring system.
Both of these bodies are watching the judges scores and looking for better ways to get the job done.

But, it is just humans and it takes time to adapt.

Just my nickel here from a guy who works both sides of the fence! :lol:

TIM

Jeff_in_KC
05-07-2007, 05:57 PM
My wife was questioned at the CBJ class she took because she gave a brisket a low score (4). When pressed, she said it tasted like it was cooked on a previous day and re-heated. Turns out she was right. Nothing wrong with scoring as such. They may be told to cook everything about a 6 (first time i've heard that though) but it doesn't mean everything comes out a 6. But I agree with your point, Gary. I've been saying this for over a year now: What is most important to a lot of judges is taking BBQ home. Pretty sad if you ask me too. It's not about a free meal, people. If you want carry-out BBQ, head to your local joint and pay for it. It may not be that even a majority of judges act this way but I think just enough of them do to do like you said... wreck our day.

spicewine
05-07-2007, 08:30 PM
Why not say it's a 6 or DQ?? They will Question a D Q!! and the scores will come in line!! Problem solved!! Thank You Spice for the answer to everyones problems!!8-) 8-) 8-)

eurycea
05-07-2007, 10:02 PM
I've been saying this for over a year now: What is most important to a lot of judges is taking BBQ home. Pretty sad if you ask me too. It's not about a free meal, people. If you want carry-out BBQ, head to your local joint and pay for it. It may not be that even a majority of judges act this way but I think just enough of them do to do like you said... wreck our day.

I don't believe I've ever sat at a table where any of the judges considered taking food home the most important thing. The idea that people use a tank of gas and a good portion of their Saturday just so they can have some half eaten reheated bbq that may have been bad in the first place doesn't make sense. And even if they did - why would they judge down? That would just bring them to the attention of the reps who will be less likely to use them in the future.

I believe that judges who consistently judge down are ones who think they know what great bbq is (which more then likely is what they cook on weekends) and everything else is awful.

Of course there are people who judge down because they don't know any better, but hopefully the reps talk to them and they adjust their scores. I've been at tables where the rep has lectured us on low scores and most of the time that helps. I think it would be interesting to see if chicken scores are significantly lower then everything else since the talks normally occur after chicken.

lazyjacres
05-08-2007, 07:16 AM
Hey Diddler, you don't have to worry about those judges this weekend. Out of a class of 50 people, I only had 5 sign up to judge. What a huge disappointment!!!!!!!!!!

Harbormaster
05-08-2007, 02:03 PM
So let me ask, as I don't know the answer to this: If the KCBS doesn't do this already, why not toss the high and low scores on an entry? Wouldn't that help to keep things more accurate?

MoKanMeathead
05-08-2007, 03:38 PM
I think it would be interesting to see if chicken scores are significantly lower then everything else since the talks normally occur after chicken.


Interesting that you say that. I believe that chicken score are consistently lower than other categories. A couple of weeks ago our chicken took first place and our ribs took 6th place with the exact same score.

Rookie'48
05-08-2007, 10:03 PM
So let me ask, as I don't know the answer to this: If the KCBS doesn't do this already, why not toss the high and low scores on an entry? Wouldn't that help to keep things more accurate?

From what we were told in the class, the low score on each entry is set aside & only used to break a tie. I'm pretty sure that's what was said, anyhow.
Dave

Cabrito
05-09-2007, 07:23 AM
So let me ask, as I don't know the answer to this: If the KCBS doesn't do this already, why not toss the high and low scores on an entry? Wouldn't that help to keep things more accurate?

KCBS does toss out the low score. I have been a judge for two years now and I must confess that my scores did start out low in the beginning. Over time, with more experience, this changed and I started reserving the low scores for BBQ that really had a problem - such as being completely overcooked, tough, a taste that makes it hard to swallow. In each case, my counterparts at the table indicated they made the same decision. So I do think that the concern over low scores should not be a huge concern. Also, you get scored differently on Appearance, taste, texture and they are weighted differently. I don't ever remember giving one entry a low score across the board.