PDA

View Full Version : KCBS - How are we doing ?


Merl
04-15-2007, 04:11 PM
Dear Brethren,
This is a serious inquiry.
We have had elections, and have a new board. For KCBS this is the new year and the new season. Last year we added corrected the by-laws, added electronic voting, created new contest critique sheets, which provide more information to us, and have begun to test new judging slips and cooks comment cards.

So that was last year. What I want to know is what are we doing a good job at, and what do we need to improve. I am looking for serious comments, please. This is your opportunity to have input to KCBS. I will take your ideas to the new ideas committee and see if we go forward with your thoughts.

Thank you.
Merl Whitebook
New Ideas Committee
KCBS Board of Directors
mwhitebook at kcbs.us

cmcadams
04-15-2007, 04:24 PM
I think improvements in judging are being looked into (comment cards). Good thing.

electonic voting, very good thing.

More feedback via forums, very good thing.

I think the area that I'd most like to see improvement is in dealing with the public at competitions. I know this is up to the organizers, but I think KCBS holds a bigger responsibility to coach the organizers. The expectations of the public need to be better set, so they know what they are going to find. I don't like disappointing people, making them upset, because I'm in the middle of my stuff but they expect free barbecue. I think better programs/procedures to educate the public would be great.

I'm not suggesting a solution, just an area I find lacking.

Greendriver
04-15-2007, 04:36 PM
This is a great way to improve KCBS and the teams relations. I have thought for some time now that KCBS should actually be the member cooking teams voice with the organizers. If that were the case I think they should determine by the best and most accurate means possible if having contest to conclude on Sunday rather than Sat is what the majority of their members prefer and / or whether or not it is good for the member as a whole. If it is a KCBS ran contest the KCBS decision on Sat / Sun should not be a problem.

Mo-Dave
04-15-2007, 05:02 PM
I am repeating myself but here goes. I went to judge the Jefferson City cook off and was made a table captain and I am wiser for it. It was the first time I got to see how everyone at my table scored and it was an eyeopener for me.

It also reinforced my idea that judges should be given the scores after judging is over. This way they can see how their scores compared to the other judges at that table, they should be able to figure out their scores, so no need to give judges numbers or what table number they were.

I believe this would help them know if they should maybe adjust there scores next time or drop out of judging, for the sake of the teams, if they are consistently way off the mark.

This would especially help new judges to become better and not leave them wondering if they did ok. And give the judges a chance to have better dialog just like teams do in an effort to better them selfs and hone ones skills.

Mooner
04-15-2007, 05:04 PM
From what I have heard around the circuit (and again, I don't know if any of this is true) is the judging. It seems there's just not enough certified judges for comps. I know for a fact at North KC Comp, someone said they were training judges the morning of the competition because they just didn't have enough. It sometimes seems the scores reflect this also. 788, 878...and so on, then you get a 455 or something and that sounds like a judge who is going off personal taste instead of using judging guidelines as if he or she just doesn't know any better. I know it has to be hard finding 20 or 30 judges for a comp but im definitely getting certified asap. I guess I would just like to see only KCBS certified judges at comps but im a realist so I know it can't always happen. I think the KCBS is doing an absolutely wonderful job though. Love you guys!

Mooner
04-15-2007, 05:10 PM
This is a great way to improve KCBS and the teams relations. I have thought for some time now that KCBS should actually be the member cooking teams voice with the organizers. If that were the case I think they should determine by the best and most accurate means possible if having contest to conclude on Sunday rather than Sat is what the majority of their members prefer and / or whether or not it is good for the member as a whole. If it is a KCBS ran contest the KCBS decision on Sat / Sun should not be a problem.

I love this idea!!

Mo-Dave
04-15-2007, 05:22 PM
I have often thought that we really don't need certified judges. After all we all know what we like and don't like so people off the street may be just as likely to be good judges as anyone else.

When you feed people at your house or cater you don't expect them to like the food based on a given criteria, someone has set for them, you just need to know that they liked or disliked it. Many times I have read or heard cooks say at home they like the meat falling off the bone or fork tender but at cook offs they cook differently. Hope I am not hijacking this thread.
Dave

River City Smokehouse
04-15-2007, 05:36 PM
The only thing I could really have a problem with and don't have any ideas at this point as how to fix it is lack of experienced judges/judging. I think for one KCBS should put their foot down and not allow "Celebrity Judges" unless they have attended a certification class in full at least. The 7 minute or whatever it is CD doesn't give anyone any information that will be retained to use at the judging table. (In one ear and out the other) Most people are talking BS and are not paying attention. They are just ready to eat some food. A couple of guys for instance yesterday even made comments about being there just to eat some free BBQ. Now that's just plain B.S.!
IMO a 4-6 hour class isn't enough training for someone to properly judge BBQ under KCBS criteria. I met one of the judges yesterday after the Capital City Cook-Off and he said that the BBQ there was not good at all for the most part because he likes Carolina BBQ and all this BBQ at Jefferson City was sweet. So he gave a lot of low scores cause he, "don't like sweet bbq".That really didn't set well with me! I don't have the answer for the judging problems but it needs to be looked at hard and fixed.

ThomEmery
04-15-2007, 05:52 PM
If your going to have only six Judges scoring product
They have to be a well trained dedicated lot. Most are


This new marketing campaign is one of the most important things we have going now.

beam boys bbq
04-15-2007, 06:14 PM
there needs to be an traning the weekend before each contest to have an class to become CBJ

at each contest i find out if the judges are CBJ or not

I change my cooking style just on this info

and another thing that has been brought is an team name data base once your team name is entered no one can have it or get close to it
the board has to vote the name good or not to be

york

BBQPrincess
04-15-2007, 06:37 PM
Yesterday was my first judging attempt as well as an education! I have had great exposure to BBQ and competitions. I had studied the Judge's Certification Booklet prior because I wanted to be as fair as I could about judging knowing how hard the teams work at doing competitions, the weather elements they endure, the expense they incur for competing, etc.
First off, a judge needs to have some insight to info reference judging. The CD that was played was of no benefit. People at my table were talking, hence, paying no attention to what was said. This was the first time 3 of the 6 had been judges. It is my understanding that during judging, people are not suppose to be talking, yet two newly certified judges talked non-stop; need I say this is very disruptive? The Table Captain did not attempt to control this situation but rather talked with them. Judges need insight as to how the judging process should transpire, they need the knowledge I was fortunate enough to have; not judging according to their preferences and/or they are there judging just to eat free BBQ, as two commented! This is not fair to the contestants.

The_Kapn
04-15-2007, 08:32 PM
Merl,
You are a brave and a good man for posting this question here.
I thank you!

I know the Brothers and Sisters will take it seriously and add constructive input and not the venom seen many times when BOD members ask or speak in public.

I am personally tickled with the direction the BOD has moved in the last couple of years. With you and folks like Jim Minion--it is really moving in the right direction.

When you scrape away all the "fluff" and emotion about "how things used to be", KCBS is on the verge of a great future with expansion and diversification.

The one underlying source of discontent is the Judging system.
The judging system has been modified a bit, but still has a long way to go.
I suggested to Jim Minion last fall that we are just "tweaking" and may be running into "paradigms" and not breaking them.
Basically, a small change leaves the judges using "the way we have always done it" and creates conflicts with new judges who do not have any old habits to break.
The classic solution to a paradigm is to totally change the system to break the old processes and the old thinking.
Painful, but works.

Anyway--too many words for a Sunday Night!

You all are doing a great job!

TIM

Jeff_in_KC
04-15-2007, 08:54 PM
Merl, thanks for asking us! Your sincerety in your position is greatly appreciated. I too believe the biggest problem KCBS faces is the judging. I did not hear the comments Jim did but had I heard them, it would have been nearly impossible for me to refrain from telling that judge what I thought of his opinions. We had a sponsor to offset a portion of our expenses but we spent over $500 on this event (entry, meat, sponsor dinner, supplies, meals, propane and gasoline). It would be nice if we had judges who cared and gave a us a fair assessment. Ban coolers and removal of BBQ from the judging area! Get rid of celebrities and politcal figures as judges unless they become trained with more than a CD minutes before the comp. I also like the idea of judges seeing how everyone scored entries and those who are consistently off the mark should not be allowed to judge.

Other than that, I think the KCBS Web site should be completely redesigned. Make it more user friendly and USEFUL. Add sections for articles, contest reviews, photos, etc. Maybe put a lot of the Bullsheet features online such as recipe exchanges, etc. How about a place for cooks to go to submit contest reviews and rate different aspects of the contest? A drop down men to choose a contest takes a cook to a questionaire on that event. Results are tallied and posted to the board for all to see... including sponsors who do a chitty job and wonder why people aren't returning to their events. It could be a cool database for teams to look at and use in deciding their upcoming season's schedule.

QansasjayhawQ
04-15-2007, 08:58 PM
I met one of the judges yesterday after the Capital City Cook-Off and he said that the BBQ there was not good at all for the most part because he likes Carolina BBQ and all this BBQ at Jefferson City was sweet. So he gave a lot of low scores cause he, "don't like sweet bbq".That really didn't set well with me!

When I see that an event is "KCBS" sanctioned, I ASSUME that we are cooking to Kansas City style BBQ parameters. (The sauce is IT carried by the finely smoked meats.)

I even modified a family traditional, perfectly acceptable, Carolina style sauce to match the KC style for the Osage City competition just because it was a KCBS sanctioned event. To think that it may have been judged better at a KCBS event in its native configuration would be . . . well . . . unthinkable.

Plowboy
04-15-2007, 11:10 PM
This is a great way to improve KCBS and the teams relations. I have thought for some time now that KCBS should actually be the member cooking teams voice with the organizers. If that were the case I think they should determine by the best and most accurate means possible if having contest to conclude on Sunday rather than Sat is what the majority of their members prefer and / or whether or not it is good for the member as a whole. If it is a KCBS ran contest the KCBS decision on Sat / Sun should not be a problem.

I love this idea!!

I'm not sure what this means. I've read it twice.

Plowboy
04-15-2007, 11:15 PM
When I see that an event is "KCBS" sanctioned, I ASSUME that we are cooking to Kansas City style BBQ parameters. (The sauce is IT carried by the finely smoked meats.)

I even modified a family traditional, perfectly acceptable, Carolina style sauce to match the KC style for the Osage City competition just because it was a KCBS sanctioned event. To think that it may have been judged better at a KCBS event in its native configuration would be . . . well . . . unthinkable.

Nothing about KCBS is about a particular style of BBQ. It makes sense that BBQ will be judged differently in different regions of the country, but nothing in the rules, bylaws or structure implies that it should be judged "KC style".

Is your point that it should be called something other than KC BBQ Society?

MilitantSquatter
04-15-2007, 11:16 PM
Todd - I thought the same thing until I re-read... I think Greendriver is saying that the KCBS should represent the teams, and if the teams overwhelmingly prefer Sunday turn in's (which may or may not be true depending what part of the country you live in or what your work schedule and vacation time are like), then the KCBS should be able to dictate to the organizer that Sunday must be turn in day...I don't agree with this as no one if forced to enter any contest. If Sat turn in's are truly the favorite, they will always exist.



Good Luck Merl - Judging will get a ton of feedback to your question especially if the quality of judges cannot keep up with the desire of organizers and cooks to hold more contests or bigger contests..

What might help is if the KCBS worked on finding ways to have cooks who are certified or get cooks to become certified to judge more frequently. Some cooks do a very good job of this but I think more of us (including me) need to make a better effort to find at least one or two contests per year to judge rather than cook or be a spectator.

I would also like to see a more formalized monthly communication in the Bullsheet and online from the KCBS president as to the "state of affairs", update etc.

I like Jeff's idea for cooks to have the ability to the quality of a contest in select areas. This coulh however bring out the bad in those who just want to complain.

motoeric
04-15-2007, 11:24 PM
Hi,

I feel a bit odd posting, as I'm not yet a member of the KCBS, a certified judge or competitor, but if you wouldn't mind a suggestion from someone who has event management experience and is an avid fan, here is my opinion:

Keep the celebrity judges, keep the political figures and local representatives but create a special, small category that they are allowed to vote in. Call it 'peoples choice' or something and give out a small plaque or award.

As someone who has helped to run hundreds of events, some with over 30,000 attendees, I can assure you that celebrities help the cause of the event itself. But nothing is harmed by limiting their span of input.

Thanks,

Eric

Bentley
04-16-2007, 12:59 AM
Dear Brethren,
This is a serious inquiry.
We have had elections, and have a new board. For KCBS this is the new year and the new season. Last year we added corrected the by-laws, added electronic voting, created new contest critique sheets, which provide more information to us, and have begun to test new judging slips and cooks comment cards.

So that was last year. What I want to know is what are we doing a good job at, and what do we need to improve. I am looking for serious comments, please. This is your opportunity to have input to KCBS. I will take your ideas to the new ideas committee and see if we go forward with your thoughts.

Thank you.
Merl Whitebook

New Ideas Committee
KCBS Board of Directors
mwhitebook at kcbs.us

I have respect for the team member who is relaying this message. It was posted on another fourm, he is a brethren, and I hope he will not mind me using this but I too am pissed like him.

"I did have 2 judges visit my spot after judging was over at the Autry . I said hi and asked how things turned out that day. One said... quote: "Someone had the nerve to turn in babyback ribs"...and the other agreed. I said what's wrong with that? Judge said " I didn't count down on it because of that.". Yeah, right. So why are you telling me that? My guess would be that you did somewhere down the line. I said I hope you don't count down because of that, that's legal meat. A lot of teams turn in baby backs! Judge said "I prefer spareribs" Subject was changed real quick and I stared into space with my mouth open and wondered what the hell they're teaching these people these days. I don't turn in babybacks and I was pissed that I had heard this. What the hell is that all about! I hope these guys read this Forum and will answer for themselves.
Please, I wish all judges would have to cook in contests to understand what it takes to even PLACE!"

Merl, if KCBS wants to do something for ME, get a dialog going concerning continuing education for CBJ's. Why is it that Master judges have to cook with a team every two years but CBJ's do not? Comments like this make me understand why I came in 25th in ribs at a contest I turned BABYBACKS in at. I have never finished lower than 15th in ribs in my life! I took 1st in ribs at my very 1st contest, I know how to cook ribs!

You want my serious input, here it is.

JohnMcD348
04-16-2007, 04:12 AM
For the Judging aspect and new judges, I would recommend a mentoring process.

When I went to my Judging class, I met TheKapn there and made alot of new friends. The class had alot of people there who were Judge certified from other organizing events(FBA, MIM, etc) and they noticed how I had been scoring during my class. They talked to me about it and explained things to me that made more sense after having had the class. Had it not been for them, I would have judged alot lower during the event and probably caused some very low scores for teams unintentionally. I know they try to put new judges on tables with older, more experienced judges but that's during the contest and by then, it's too late. Possibly asking for a few judges to come to the class to "captian" the tables during the class and review the scores with the students during the class. Not in a manor of ganging up on them but to understand their reasoning for scoring.

Also, you do find some people, yes they are out there, whose only goal in life is to DQ someone or something. Those types need to be weeded out and asked to step aside and leave.

I'm not a competitor yet, and I've only ever judged one contest but that is what I have taken away from the contests and events I have been to and listened to alot of the competitors talk about scores and seen alot of them with 888, 899, 898, 444, 999 and you have to wonder if it was a new judge or a person on a power trip? I also think to myslef that had I not had the experience of others to guide me through my first judging, I would have been the one at the table giving that person who deserved 8's and 9's, 6's, 7's and 8's. Simply becuase I didn't know any better at the time.

LostNation
04-16-2007, 06:44 AM
Ban coolers and removal of BBQ from the judging area!

Jeff,
I agree with most you have posted but I dis-agree with the ban of coolers. I spend a bunch of money on a contest, I'd hate to see my food thrown away because no one could bring it home. Maybe just use a turn in box for the leftovers from their judging plate, then the coolers outside the judging tent?

Jeff_in_KC
04-16-2007, 06:49 AM
Jeff,
I agree with most you have posted but I dis-agree with the ban of coolers. I spend a bunch of money on a contest, I'd hate to see my food thrown away because no one could bring it home. Maybe just use a turn in box for the leftovers from their judging plate, then the coolers outside the judging tent?

Rich, what we turn in is such a small amount compared to what we're cooking. I don't have a problem with small samples being tossed. I think that until the emphasis is on scoring correctly and not seeing what you can take home to the family, no BBQ should be allowed to be taken out of the judging area. If I get a fair score on my entries, I don't care if they trash samples or not. :wink:

cmcadams
04-16-2007, 07:12 AM
I don't mind coolers outside.... but during judging, I hate seeing judges get as much into their cooler as they can. I think some have too much focus on taking home food vs. judging fairly.

Mooner
04-16-2007, 08:51 AM
I'm not sure what this means. I've read it twice.

I think what Greendriver was trying to say is the cooks should get to choose whether or not a contest runs Sat/Sun instead of Fri/Sat. Like if they had to work Friday or something it might be easier to check in on Saturday.

Mooner
04-16-2007, 08:56 AM
Jeff,
I agree with most you have posted but I dis-agree with the ban of coolers. I spend a bunch of money on a contest, I'd hate to see my food thrown away because no one could bring it home. Maybe just use a turn in box for the leftovers from their judging plate, then the coolers outside the judging tent?

I think Jeff is probably saying that he has seen bbq judges take itsy bitsy bites out of a sample, then put it in a styrofoam cooler to take home to family or for themselves or whatever. These samples are meant to be eaten, there shouldn't be any leftovers. Take a proper bite, and throw the damn thing away.

willkat98
04-16-2007, 09:10 AM
Tim had a great post about judging and cooler usage a few years back.

It still rings true today.

Post #9 in this scrubbed thread:

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13679

And Jims post at the end of this thread is just plain funny

LostNation
04-16-2007, 10:21 AM
Rich, what we turn in is such a small amount compared to what we're cooking. I don't have a problem with small samples being tossed. I think that until the emphasis is on scoring correctly and not seeing what you can take home to the family, no BBQ should be allowed to be taken out of the judging area. If I get a fair score on my entries, I don't care if they trash samples or not. :wink:


I agree with cooking a bunch at a contest, I've cooked 18 slabs of ribs to get the best ones for the turn in box. That said, the samples I turn in are the best that I could cook on that given day, I don't want to see anyone throw my food out.

Judging is a very important component of our thing. I spend a weekend every year in the tent with the judges being a table captain. If the judges take a reasonable sample of the entry and score it against the standards we are cooking to then I have no problem with taking the samples home. I think the table captain plays an important part in this.

If you restrict them from having the leftovers from their plates, Do you think it will get harder to get judges at a contest?

MoKanMeathead
04-16-2007, 10:45 AM
Merl - Aside from all of the judging comments I think we need more and better communication from the KCBS board. There have been a lot of moves in the right direction - Rod's meeting minutes in the BullSheet are great - why not put those on the web page? Also I have never seen a financial statement from the KCBS but I have heard that "The KCBS has a ton of money" Thjis is our group - why not post the financials in the BullSheet or the web page?

As far as removing food from the judging area, I guess I am on Rich's side (sorry Jeff). so long as they judge the product fairly - let them take the rest home.

Bigdog
04-16-2007, 11:07 AM
First of all, let me say that I really respect what you are doing Merl by asking up our opinions. This is really a great way to get some input for the board. I have served on several boards, and all too often we are so wrapped up in what we are doing that we can not see the forrest from the trees. It is always refreshing and scary to get imput from the masses. Many times they can really help us to fix things that we had no idea needed fixing.

Secondly, on the topic of judging, I agree with Bro. Wayne. I agree that a judge should be allowed to take samples as long as he or she is doing a good job. If you need extra food for others, then just have the competitors put in some extra food.

Finally, remember that no matter what you do, some people will like it and others will not.

QansasjayhawQ
04-16-2007, 11:34 AM
Nothing about KCBS is about a particular style of BBQ. It makes sense that BBQ will be judged differently in different regions of the country, but nothing in the rules, bylaws or structure implies that it should be judged "KC style".

Is your point that it should be called something other than KC BBQ Society?

Just a point of interest - probably should be a whole other thread . . .

PigBoy
04-16-2007, 01:13 PM
Merl- the fact that you asked for opinions and are getting honest and sincere responses is a credit to your character and I applaud the job you and the board try to do. Some cooks talk about judges almost with hatred. I don't understand or condone this type of talk. Have I been disappointed with some scores- Absolutely! Maybe I haven't seen what some others have seen, but as far as coolers go I don't see a problem. A lot of these people just love BBQ. We had an older couple come by our site at Blue Springs contest and wanted to purchase some que. I noticed their judging badges and told them we didn't have any ready yet. (We were vending at this contest.) They looked really disappointed and said by the time we get done judging nobody has any left. I assured them we would and sure enough after they were done, there they were to buy some. They were so grateful! Just another side of the coin.

I really have a hard time when contests don't have a high % of CBJs. There are judging classes all the time. I think contest organizers need to be pushed harder to solicit certified judges. In some areas this could be a challenge, but in the KC area I don't understand why not.

Plowboy
04-16-2007, 01:38 PM
Merl - What about a team database on the KCBS site? Like here, teams could add their own optional profiles with team members, locations, logos, web sites, emails, phone numbers. All optional of course, but what a great resource!!!

Arlin_MacRae
04-16-2007, 02:45 PM
Merl,

I'm not a competitor but asking for honest feedback is a GREAT way to do things.

Back to the way beer judges do things (OK, it's what I know...) - after each judge is finished scoring the entry, the judges actually talk through the round and compare scores. Scores that are "too high" or "too low" are discussed and usually adjusted to provide more uniform scoring. This gives the inexperienced judges a chance to learn from the experienced ones and the folks that enter their meat don't have to scratch their heads and wonder what the hell so-and-so could have been thinking.

My two cents.

Arlin

Bigdog
04-16-2007, 02:53 PM
Merl,

I'm not a competitor but asking for honest feedback is a GREAT way to do things.

Back to the way beer judges do things (OK, it's what I know...) - after each judge is finished scoring the entry, the judges actually talk through the round and compare scores. Scores that are "too high" or "too low" are discussed and usually adjusted to provide more uniform scoring. This gives the inexperienced judges a chance to learn from the experienced ones and the folks that enter their meat don't have to scratch their heads and wonder what the hell so-and-so could have been thinking.

My two cents.

Arlin

I fully agree with Arlin. I would even give the table captains the power to ignore any scores that were "out of line."

Jeff_in_KC
04-16-2007, 03:24 PM
If you restrict them from having the leftovers from their plates, Do you think it will get harder to get judges at a contest?

Honestly, if the draw for them is getting to take BBQ home with them instead of fairly juding my entry, then I don't care. There won't be any contest cancelled because there are fewer judges. Somehow things will work out, even if a judge has to judge more than one entry from each category.

CajunSmoker
04-16-2007, 03:55 PM
I am not a competitor or a judge. However, I would love to get certified as a CBJ. I have checked the KCBS site regularly looking for a class anywhere close to me to get certified. If you will check the closest class is either Oklahoma, Georgia or Missouri. I live in Louisiana, were talking a 12 hour drive minimum each way. Who judged the Hammond, La event? Who is going to judge the Pine Bluff, Ark event? Both events are within 3 hours of my home.

If you want better judges at the events, get some classes organized in different areas of the country and advertise the fact that they are going to be held in some of the local papers or radio stations.

nmayeux
04-16-2007, 03:59 PM
The KCBS is doing great, and I am proud to be a member. Now I do wish there were more CBJ classes in my area, and I sure would like a new KCBS sticker for my pit... Keep up the good work.

Pig Headed
04-16-2007, 08:03 PM
Merl, thanks for asking for feedback. I have to weigh in on the CBJ bashing that I see on this and other forums. I'm a CBJ and a competitor. I agree with Rich on this matter. No judge can eat all that's put on his/her plate and as long as a decent bite or two is taken, I see no reason to waste the food and throw what's left away. Why is it not possible to judge fairly and still not waste food? I believe that the vast majority of judges take their job just as seriously as us cooks do. Why alienate an integral part of our community.

JohnMcD348
04-16-2007, 08:50 PM
Merl,

I'm not a competitor but asking for honest feedback is a GREAT way to do things.

Back to the way beer judges do things (OK, it's what I know...) - after each judge is finished scoring the entry, the judges actually talk through the round and compare scores. Scores that are "too high" or "too low" are discussed and usually adjusted to provide more uniform scoring. This gives the inexperienced judges a chance to learn from the experienced ones and the folks that enter their meat don't have to scratch their heads and wonder what the hell so-and-so could have been thinking.

My two cents.

Arlin


That's pretty much what I was trying to say in my post. I think that would help more than whether or not you took anything home with you. It could also be a point of table captians or even the officials themselves monitoring for those few who are not truly in it for the right reasons. Like Was said before, you know or have seen people who are outspoken and seem to only want to give the absolute lowest scores possible or even DQ sombeody. Then there are others who just do it becuase they just don't know any better. The only time I judged, I think I pretty much ate everything that was put in front of me. What didn't get eaten, got thrown away. Maybe if my palet were a little better tuned, I could judge with one bite, but I had to go back for more than one bite for nearly everything I judged.

ModelMaker
04-17-2007, 06:31 AM
Merl,thanks for askin.
New logo? Ok, fine now leave it alone.
Electronic voting? Perfect, good job.
New judging slips ? Will see.
Cooks comment cards ? Great idea, many times wanted to explain my mark. Could be pretty sloppy looking card though, hard enough keeping score card clean.
Crappy judges, talking at the table before card turn in, too many first time judges grouped together, inattention during judges instuction... Put Mike Lake in charge of more events or have him train the reps. There is a noticeable difference between the way he runs a contest and others I have judged.
Last but not least the cooler debate. The first two contests I ever did I just sampled and pitched, honest to God each time I approached the garbage can I expected my mom to cuff me in the back of the head!! My wife was asking how it was, were there any real good ones or bad ones, this that and the other thing. So I decided to put some samples in the cooler and let her share in my hobby, that is all there is to it. I'm not tryint to put dinner on the table for the next week. Just sharing my fun and excitement for good BBQ.
ModelMaker

parrothead
04-17-2007, 06:36 AM
I'll third the topic of a team database.

QN
04-17-2007, 06:37 AM
[quote=CajunSmoker;380912]Who judged the Hammond, La event? quote]

I was a table captain in Hammond and they had 100% certified judges and 100% certified table captains. I'm sorry you have not had an opportunity to attend a judging school. Most, if not all of the contests I attend in the southeast do attempt to have all certified judges and most are successful in doing so.

CajunSmoker
04-17-2007, 06:58 AM
[quote=CajunSmoker;380912]Who judged the Hammond, La event? quote]

I was a table captain in Hammond and they had 100% certified judges and 100% certified table captains. I'm sorry you have not had an opportunity to attend a judging school. Most, if not all of the contests I attend in the southeast do attempt to have all certified judges and most are successful in doing so.


I didn't mean to imply that the judges at Hammond weren't certified, my point though is still that we need some classes being held in other areas of the country. I notice you are from North Alabama. That is a pretty long haul from South Louisiana.

spicewine
04-17-2007, 08:14 AM
Merl: Just coming from the Jefferson City Cook off last week I can tell you that some of the Judging was abysmal at best!! I talked to 2 CBJ's after the contest and found out some rather disturbing things. One had a box that had sculpted meat as he explained it to me in detail. I asked him if they DQ'ed the box and he said No because nobody else said anything about it. The same Judge said that they had a box that had pooled sauce. Again I asked, did you DQ them?? Again the answer was no but they didn't get a good score anyway. A second judge told me that he had a brisket turn in that looked chunked and burnt. He gave it a 4-4-4 without even tasting it. I guess my point is that we spend a whole lot of time and money in practicing our art only to get this kind of judging.

Case in point: Our Chicken Scoring last week one judge 9-8-9 another 5-5-5 ?? Whats up with that???

Spice

Merl
04-17-2007, 08:56 PM
Thank you Brethren. I appreciate the comments. I remained silent so I could see where the comments went. I am summarizing the comments and will next take to my committee and then bring to the Board.

As you might remember some changes I have proposed have taken a lot to convince the Board to consider. But that is no reason to not try. I will keep you posted as to progress and what is going on.

Thank you for taking the time to write. As always feel free to contact me with your thoughts or concerns.

Yours in BBQ
Merl
mwhitebook at kcbs.us

HoDeDo
04-17-2007, 09:25 PM
Thanks Merl. It will be good to see you and Carol out and about now that the season is on!

Jeff_in_KC
04-17-2007, 09:38 PM
Case in point: Our Chicken Scoring last week one judge 9-8-9 another 5-5-5 ?? Whats up with that???

Spice

Amen to that, Jay! We must have been on the same table with ya! We got almost all 8's and 9's from five judges with a few 7's thrown in and judge #1 gave us a 7-4-3!!! That's just stupid!

LostNation
04-18-2007, 04:45 AM
As you might remember some changes I have proposed have taken a lot to convince the Board to consider. But that is no reason to not try.

Merl,
I also appreciate the dialog, I really think KCBS is moving in the right direction with the "new" blood on the board over the last few years.

What are the changes that you have proposed ?

Lobster Boy
04-18-2007, 08:20 AM
How about judging software that'll run on a Mac? It seems like it would be simple to do.

DF

Scottie
04-18-2007, 12:50 PM
Amen to that, Jay! We must have been on the same table with ya! We got almost all 8's and 9's from five judges with a few 7's thrown in and judge #1 gave us a 7-4-3!!! That's just stupid!


And here I thought I was the only one at that judges table.... ;-)


Scottie

Bigmista
04-18-2007, 01:04 PM
I really like the idea of comment cards. It gives cooks an idea of what they need to improve. I just hope the judges are able to articulate what they like and don't like.

Ongoing training seems like a no-brainer to me. Gotta keep the skills sharp and the rules in the front of the brain.

A team name database would be cool but hard to maintain unless the team was a KCBS memer before they could list their name.

thunter
04-18-2007, 02:59 PM
I agree with Jeff_In_KC on a couple of points. First, I am going to become a CBJ this summer. I also plan to compete. I want to be the best CBJ possible for the teams who are working very hard to make a good showing because that is exactly what I want when I compete. If my judging proves to be consistently off, then I should be required to be retrained or not allowed to judge.

Next, I am a web developer (actually an IT Manager now but I built websites for 15 years), and web design is crucial to an organizations growth. Your website is your business card; even more so, it is your brochure! It must be attractive, easy to use and constantly update with new and changing information. I think the KCBS website could use some immediate attention to improve the image of the organization and to make information more accessible to it visitors and members.

Tony

spicewine
04-18-2007, 05:16 PM
And here I thought I was the only one at that judges table.... ;-)


Scottie

Scottie: Sorry I missed meeting you!! It was too cold and wet to get around. Hope to compete with you again.

Spice

ModelMaker
04-25-2007, 12:29 PM
Merl,thanks for askin.
New logo? Ok, fine now leave it alone.
Electronic voting? Perfect, good job.
New judging slips ? Will see.
Cooks comment cards ? Great idea, many times wanted to explain my mark. Could be pretty sloppy looking card though, hard enough keeping score card clean.
Crappy judges, talking at the table before card turn in, too many first time judges grouped together, inattention during judges instuction... Put Mike Lake in charge of more events or have him train the reps. There is a noticeable difference between the way he runs a contest and others I have judged.
Last but not least the cooler debate. The first two contests I ever did I just sampled and pitched, honest to God each time I approached the garbage can I expected my mom to cuff me in the back of the head!! My wife was asking how it was, were there any real good ones or bad ones, this that and the other thing. So I decided to put some samples in the cooler and let her share in my hobby, that is all there is to it. I'm not tryint to put dinner on the table for the next week. Just sharing my fun and excitement for good BBQ.
ModelMaker

Merl, There is one more thing I'm pretty cranked about. The no fratinizing rule before turn in. In contests that the wife and I are not camping nearby I drive myself in and really enjoy talking with and making new friends before the judges gather for the meeting. Is it really that important to keep judges out of the area, even before the judges meeting. What does the board think we're trying to do? Make evil plans to overthrow the system? I just wanted to chit chat...
ModelMaker

habenero
04-25-2007, 08:06 PM
Merl:
You and Mr. Minion are saving the integrity of the KCBS. First off, great job! Next, the judging will never be close to 80% correct with all of the problems with educating judges that we have now. We as cooks have to figure in the luck factor of drawing that professional judge or not. I am a rookie at comps, but plan on continuing with the current KCBS circuit. I would ask one thing for the board to consider and hopefully adopt.....Make all of the organizers and the Bullsheet list the added monies or money up at their contest in the Bullsheet, in the back listings, so we can look at a glance and plan a "run", or set up a plan of competing at the contests we choose by purse structure. I am not ashamed to say that the added money is what gets me there. I am going to a small comp this week in Darcys hometown. The money is not the best, but I am going to gain experience and there will be 0 certified judging there. It is not sanctioned but plans are to be IBCA next year which I know nothing about. I wanted to go to Norfolk but can't make it. Maybe next year.
Good Luck Merl:
habenero

Muzzlebrake
04-25-2007, 09:39 PM
I agree with Jeff_In_KC on a couple of points. First, I am going to become a CBJ this summer. I also plan to compete. I want to be the best CBJ possible for the teams who are working very hard to make a good showing because that is exactly what I want when I compete. If my judging proves to be consistently off, then I should be required to be retrained or not allowed to judge.

Next, I am a web developer (actually an IT Manager now but I built websites for 15 years), and web design is crucial to an organizations growth. Your website is your business card; even more so, it is your brochure! It must be attractive, easy to use and constantly update with new and changing information. I think the KCBS website could use some immediate attention to improve the image of the organization and to make information more accessible to it visitors and members.

Tony

I agree with what Tony said, the website leaves a whole lot to be desired.

As far as the judging goes, I dont know what to say. It seems everyone likes to bash them and that can kind of be expected, nobody likes the refs or umps either. I don't really know how you can get more consistancy in something as subjective as judging food other than by doing it more and more.

I will say that the follow up for new CBJ's seems to be lacking, I took my CBJ class on 2/24 and had not heard anything since then. I really have no idea what I am supposed to do next. I got the CBJ shirt I ordered in the mail today but arent I supposed to get a number and a card or certificate or something to make me "official"

ModelMaker
04-27-2007, 12:25 PM
Sean,
All good things come to those who wait.
You will recieve a certificate suitable for framing, a shirt badge with your name and official number on it......and some other stuff.
What you need to do now is get on the KCBS site find a handfull of contests and contact the person in charge and ask to be included in their request for judges. They will contact you with what you need to do. They are all different in how they do things so get after 'em early.
I'm already on the list for four contests the first one not till June 6.
Good luck, if you need any help P.M. me.
ModelMaker

ChipotlePat
05-06-2007, 09:06 PM
the point system need to be updated KCBS is way behind.
If a contest has 25 + teams, the points are doubled.
If a contest has 50 + teams, the points are tripled.
25 is little contest in kcbs now I thank that you should double what you have now to
If a contest has 50 + teams, the points are doubled.
If a contest has 100 + teams, the points are tripled.

Solidkick
05-06-2007, 09:16 PM
the point system need to be updated KCBS is way behind.
If a contest has 25 + teams, the points are doubled.
If a contest has 50 + teams, the points are tripled.
25 is little contest in kcbs now I thank that you should double what you have now to
If a contest has 50 + teams, the points are doubled.
If a contest has 100 + teams, the points are tripled.

I have similar thoughts, but more along the lines of the double points being at 35 teams and triple points at 65 teams.