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G$
04-02-2007, 09:52 AM
This week at Rio Rancho(KCBS) they did two interesting things:

1) Judges Comment Cards. Judges were encouraged to provide comments to the cooks on any entry they felt they wanted to provide feedback on. For example, when we got our scores, we received a note from a judge that said the brisket was "extremely flavorful and extremely tough". It was a nice gesture even though we already knew both of these facts(especially the 'tough' part).

2) They handed out the rating definitions at the cooks meeting. Not sure if they have ever done this before. (2= inedible, 3= bad, etc etc etc)

Plowboy
04-02-2007, 09:55 AM
Is this something that KCBS was testing out or did the contest rep take it upon themselves to do this?

G$
04-02-2007, 10:00 AM
I believe it will become standard practice. I can not recall who mentioned it, Merl I think, but they said it was the first event they were doing this, and I THINK we have Merl sand Jim Minion to thank for it(?).

Perhaps a more clear headed thinker that was there will clarify. I froze a few brain cells, and lost a few more to the JD.

jgh1204
04-02-2007, 10:16 AM
ICBA does not give feedback nor list scores other than the top 10 which I think is wrong.(At least this was true in the 1 competition that I have done.) How can you improve without feedback?

Arlin_MacRae
04-02-2007, 10:58 AM
The homebrewer's governing body has done this for years and it's very effective in increasing the quality of future submissions. I can't imagine why there's been no feedback in all this time!

parrothead
04-02-2007, 12:24 PM
There has been wind about a system allowing judges to add comments for awhile. I like the idea. Gives the cook more to go on.

G$
04-02-2007, 01:23 PM
I am surprised there is not more response to this.

Pig Headed
04-02-2007, 01:24 PM
I agree Greg. I think that comments will be very beneficial. I think the comments are in the testing stage and will not be used at every event. At least I think that's what I read.

Merl
04-02-2007, 02:01 PM
A special committee which Jim and I are guiding is in charge of the Test Slip and comment card program. This is a sanctioned program passed by the BOD of KCBS.
There are 5 Reps who will use these cards at all contest where they officiate. The test is subject to change as we gather data from the contest. Currently the definitions on the Judges slips are:

1—Disqualified
2- Inedible
3—Poor
4—Below Average
5—Average
6—Above Average
7—Very Good
8—Terrific
9- Excellent

We still begin judging at 6 and there are no changes being made to the actual scoring system. We are trying to see if this will create an atmosphere where the judges scores are more consistent. We will determine the standard deviation and mean deviation for both types of scoring slips and then evaluate the results.

I had a lot of positive feedback and comments from cooks regarding the program last weekend in Rio Rancho. We want to hear from both Judges and Cooks as to their experiences.

It is likely we may change a word or two, especially "Terrific" If you have an idea, e-mail me at
Mwhitebook at kcbs.us

Yours in BBQ
Merl Whitebook

Sawdustguy
04-02-2007, 02:04 PM
I like the idea also. I personally would like to know what I did well and what I didn't do so well in the eyes of the judges. I think it will help us become better competitive Q'ers.

Arlin_MacRae
04-02-2007, 02:19 PM
It's an apples 'n' oranges comparison, but here is the official beer judging score sheet. It may spark an idea or two…

http://www.bjcp.org/SCP_BeerScoreSheet.pdf
(http://static.iftk.com.br/mt/2007/03/4_years_of_persistent_training.html)

Merl
04-02-2007, 02:24 PM
Arlin, recheck that link. Thanks
Merl

Arlin_MacRae
04-02-2007, 02:26 PM
Did. I noticed it wasn't what I copied to the %^$% clipboard so I went back and recopied it.

Fixed now.

G$
04-02-2007, 02:27 PM
A special committee which Jim and I are guiding is in charge of the Test Slip and comment card program. This is a sanctioned program passed by the BOD of KCBS.

...............

Yours in BBQ
Merl Whitebook


Thanks Merl, I was hoping you would expand on this and clarify.

DeezQ
04-02-2007, 03:46 PM
In regards to the IBCA events, it is almost impossible to do a print out as there system is totaly blind. No one knows who the winners are until the tickets are taken off the trays. This has been brought up to them in the past.

Bigmista
04-02-2007, 04:24 PM
I like the idea of comments. We did a practice competition week before last and Kelly Macintosh from the CBBQA, created a special comment sheet for all of the judges. There were 4 comment cards per judge (chicken, ribs, pork and beef) and they wrote comments next to each entry's number. At the end of the day the contestants went to a table where all of the sheets were and just looked up their number on each sheet and read what the judges wrote.

Dustaway
04-02-2007, 06:13 PM
this past weekend in Hammond the judges were asked to make comments if they wanted to, it was good information but my only problem was that they were very hard to read the hand writing and we only got feed back in the chicken?

MilitantSquatter
04-02-2007, 07:19 PM
A special committee which Jim and I are guiding is in charge of the Test Slip and comment card program. This is a sanctioned program passed by the BOD of KCBS.
There are 5 Reps who will use these cards at all contest where they officiate. The test is subject to change as we gather data from the contest. Currently the definitions on the Judges slips are:

1—Disqualified
2- Inedible
3—Poor
4—Below Average
5—Average
6—Above Average
7—Very Good
8—Terrific
9- Excellent

We still begin judging at 6 and there are no changes being made to the actual scoring system. We are trying to see if this will create an atmosphere where the judges scores are more consistent. We will determine the standard deviation and mean deviation for both types of scoring slips and then evaluate the results.

I had a lot of positive feedback and comments from cooks regarding the program last weekend in Rio Rancho. We want to hear from both Judges and Cooks as to their experiences.

It is likely we may change a word or two, especially "Terrific" If you have an idea, e-mail me at
Mwhitebook at kcbs.us

Yours in BBQ
Merl Whitebook


I'm all for a number system with some definitions to help guide consistency in scoring...

I agree Merl.. that "terrific" is odd. I'd rather see a 7 be "Good" and and 8 be "Very Good" and 9 be "Excellent"... I don't think you can have "very good" without "good" preceeding it.

I also think there is a ton of misconception out there about starting at 6..
5 is listed as "Average"... KCBS rules say start at 6 and judge up or down.. While the judges classes may not specifically say that 6 means average I think that is what the prevailing thought is out there....

HoDeDo
04-02-2007, 07:36 PM
I think its great - looking forward to the feedback, and the consistency :)

Muzzlebrake
04-02-2007, 08:39 PM
where else can we talk about beer and bbq scorecards?
man this is a great place!

The_Kapn
04-02-2007, 08:58 PM
I am really interested to see where the concept of feedback provided may go.
Sitting as a Judge, I hear some wildly divergent opinions on taste and texture.
Not sure who will fill out any comments--maybe only the "extremes" of the scoring range. But, ya never know.
I think the really caring, professional judges might provide some insight.
But......???????

Time will tell and my "hat is off" to KCBS for trying.

TIM

Merl
04-02-2007, 09:57 PM
The Judges instructions for the comment card provides that Judges are encouraged to comment on exceptional entries or those which need substantial improvement.

In Rio Rancho, I had a cook who came up to me and told me he received three cards back. One for chicken which said it was exceptional, moist and tender. Two for ribs, which said the ribs were dry.

The cook indicated this matched his scores, and he appreciated both comments. His ribs were moist when tasted but dried out by the time they got to the judges table.

I had two other cooks tell me they appreciated the efforts and test.

Yours
Merl

BBQchef33
04-02-2007, 10:52 PM
we got comment cards 2 years ago in Highland. the effort was good, i thought the idea was great... but the comment "good teryaki flavor' on the chicken...which scored well..

but........... i didnt use any teriyaki on the chicken.. :confused:

Jeff_in_KC
04-02-2007, 11:05 PM
we got comment cards 2 years ago in Highland. the effort was good, i thought the idea was great... but the comment "good teryaki flavor' on the chicken...which scored well..

but........... i didnt use any teriyaki on the chicken.. :confused:

Some of you east coast types struggle recognizing chicken correctly... teriyaki chicken... fried chicken... :lol:

lunchlady
04-03-2007, 11:16 AM
We did have comment cards at a few different events in the Northeast a coupla years back. We still have ours, still stapled to our score sheets, and they did do our team some good. I think that they will help overall, but you still have to decipher and then take what you can from them.

For example...this weekend in Brooklyn... I judged a fish entry that was raw ... 'raw' on a comment card would let the team know why they got a 3, instead of thinking the judge just didn't like his fish.

I think it's a great idea, I hope it works well in reality.

WineMaster
04-03-2007, 02:29 PM
If I wasnt getting the judges notes back in the Wine comps, I dont think I would enter. As stated, Its how you get better at doing what you do.

ModelMaker
04-05-2007, 04:05 PM
As a judge I don't have a problem with comment cards. There have been lots of times I wish I could have explained my good or bad scores.
However I am DEFINATLY against putting words with my score numbers it's just extra crap to jumble up the thought process.
Lets see was 7 extra good or just kinda good.
I think judges know what 7 is.
ModelMaker