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thunderbelly
08-23-2006, 09:28 AM
Any tips on presentation techniques? I have viewed multiple pictures of winning presentations on the net but would like to know what judges consider, my first couple of presentations I thought the meat couldn't touch.
What size are the portions?
sauced or not sauced?
ANYTHING you guys have would be appreciated

cmcadams
08-23-2006, 09:37 AM
After my first judging experience, here are my tips, by category:

Chicken - don't do pulled chicken! Make sure no pieces look burned. Don't oversauce.

Ribs - Show at least one rib with the side of the meat showing. Every judge at my table thought that was important. Keep cuts very clean. Double cut isn't necessarily a good thing.

Pork - If you do more than one style of pork (sliced, pulled, chopped), don't separate them too much; it makes the box look empty. Spray with sugar water/apple juice/whatever to keep it from looking dry if you don't sauce.

Brisket - trim off excess fat. Also, trim the brisket to the box... pieces that are too long detract.

On all, make sure that the box and the meat are tidy. If it's sliced, like brisket or chicken (if sliced), clean any rub off the cut part of the meat so it looks neat. Make sure things don't look dry!

voodoobbqIL
08-23-2006, 09:38 AM
the rule of thumb we use is this: make it so when the table captain opens the box the judges think to themselves "I gotta have some of that!" The meat touching thing is not huge but make sure that if it does that does not stick together. Example here is that if 2 ribs were to stick together then that counts as one portion therefore another judge has nothing to sample.

As for portion size it needs to be enough that the judge can get at lest 2 bites, 3 or more is better. For ribs we turn in 6+ individual ribs "Hollywood style" (meat on both sides). For pork its usually a ball in the middle and they take what they want. Chicken is 6 portions of thighs or what we choose to cook that day, and brisket is 6+ slices.

For the sauce. This is a big discussion around here and my 2 cents is that if you follow the rules then sauce makes no difference. IF you choose to use it and most do make sure it does not pool anywhere in the container. I use very little sauce unless I am going somewhere that is used to seeing lots of sauce on their meat.

I am not sure if any of this helps but the best thing to do is do a practice run and submit pictures to the brethren, any of us is happy to help you get started on the right foot or thigh as the case may be

YankeeBBQ
08-23-2006, 09:54 AM
I'm gonna have to contradict a couple of things posted here. This is just my opinion but I've had some succes with my ribs. Do not hollywood cut the ribs for KCBS presentation, it doesn't help and I think it actually hurts in some instances. Do not put any ribs on their side, I don't think it looks that great and you can get good scores without doing it. Do put more than six ribs in the box, 8 has been a good number for me. Four ribs on top of four ribs. Make sure your ribs have a nice red color and a nice glazed look to them. There are several ways to accomplish this, I leave it up to you to find the technique you like.

Steve

CTSmokehouse
08-23-2006, 11:14 AM
YankeeBBQ,

Could you comment on some of the techniques that can be used to get the red look and that nice glazed appearance? I am new to comp. and would appreciate your input.

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

YankeeBBQ
08-23-2006, 11:26 AM
YankeeBBQ,

Could you comment on some of the techniques that can be used to get the red look and that nice glazed appearance? I am new to comp. and would appreciate your input.

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

Things like paprika and sugar in your rub. Butter oil or margarin when you wrap the ribs. Honey, maple or butter added to your sauce for a nice glaze. I use a combination of these things. When people talk about wrapping ribs they usually talk about doing this to make the ribs tender. It's also a time to give the ribs more flavor and a time to enhance the appearance of the ribs. It's not just about tenderness.

CTSmokehouse
08-23-2006, 12:56 PM
Thank you YankeeBBQ.

When you are heating the ribs to glaze them how intense should the heat be and for approx. how long? What are your guidlines as to how much to glaze to get the look but not overdo it?

Thanks,
Cliff

thunderbelly
08-23-2006, 03:56 PM
I put a light glaze on my ribs before I take them off, there is already a good dark color to them from the rub (contains paprika and brown sugar).
These tips are excelent guys this is just what I was hoping for but YankeeBBQ, could you elaborate on your comments please. What is it about the hollywood cut you don't like?

voodoobbqIL
08-23-2006, 03:57 PM
we do not use much sauce as our rub turns into glaze naturally from the constant temperature. The mahogany look also comes from our rub which does have paprika and brown sugar that has been dried among other things. For temperature I go a little hotter to start (300) then go back to 200-225 for the rest of the time, and I spray them about every 20-30 minutes to keep them moist and to help the glaze take. everyone has their style that's mine, looks good tastes good scores good.

good luck

cmcadams
08-23-2006, 06:32 PM
I agree with the 'no hollywood cut' It's not necessary from a judging perspective, and it means you need 3 times the ribs to choose from, and you won't get a set of ribs that fit together like contiguous ribs from the same rack. It doesn't mean you can't win that way... it's just a lot of work, I think.

YankeeBBQ
08-23-2006, 06:41 PM
Hollywood cut: The judges are taught when they bite the rib the meat should come cleanly from the bone where they bite it. Now on a hollywood cut to bit down to the bone they have to take a big ole chomp on the rib. If they don't they're just gonna bite meat and if it starts to pull away from the bone the odds are they're going to get the meat off the whole side of that bone. They're gonna think you ribs are overdone. On the other hand if they bite it and don't see any bone they might think your ribs are undercooked.

I've also heard that woman judges don't like the looks of a big honken rib. Don't know if that's true or not but I do know that I do much better with regular cut ribs.

Curt also made a good point about the amount of ribs you'll need to get just right to get enough hollywood cut. With regular cut ribs if you have one rack that's just perfect you might be able to get all six ribs from the same rack. I know some cooks that will only turn in ribs from a single rack.

YankeeBBQ
08-23-2006, 06:42 PM
Glaze: I glaze my ribs at around 350 degrees for 10 to 15 minutes. I like to get 3 coats of glaze on there if I can. I'll only glaze the bottom once when I first put the ribs on.

HoDeDo
08-23-2006, 07:54 PM
Once the ribs have broken thier sweat, and are starting to pull, I cover them with honey and wrap (loosely) them for 30 min. Open the wrap, sauce, brown sugar, and back to the cooker. They come out glossy and have a beautiful color to them. no additional heat required.... I maintain the same pit temp. throughout the cooking.
3297

spicewine
08-23-2006, 09:02 PM
Regarding " Hollywood Cut" Ribs--- You will not get 6 ribs from the same rack doing the Hollywood cut style turn in. This is my point FWIW. Each rack of ribs that you cook will probably be from different pigs. Each with their own particular flavor and characteristics. Why would you put two different tasting samples of ribs in your turn in box??? Some folks get the great tasting Ribs while the others get the lesser. I challenge you!! cook 6 racks of ribs and taste each rack individually. You will find that one of the 6 racks will stand head and shoulders above the rest and you will want to get all 6 cuts from that particular rack. If you don't taste all of the racks and just cut for the best looking pieces, you are just shooting craps on your turn in and putting more of a priority on appearance ( which doesn't carry as much weight) than taste and tenderness . My Team taste everything and agree as a group as to what gets sent up.

Don't get so caught up in presentation that you loose sight of the main goal---- The best tasting ribs at the contest.

Spice

CTSmokehouse
08-23-2006, 09:22 PM
Thank you this is great advice. We cooked probably our best Brisket at the comp. this weekend and did not fare as well as we thought we should. We cooked CAB Gold Prime. It pulled appart just as I have been taught it should and everyone who tasted it thought it was a WOW. There is probably 10 to 15 minutes before the judges sample. How do you finish your brisket slices to keep them from drying out during that period? Do you serve deckle (we did and it tasted great). We got a 5 from one judge on taste and much higher scores from all the others. Your input is appreciated.

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

SloppyQ
08-23-2006, 10:30 PM
Could someone explain more on the Hollywood cut, how to or what it looks like.

cmcadams
08-24-2006, 05:09 AM
Cliff, welcome to competition judging. :) The 5 got thrown out, but it probably means a judge just didn't like something about it... Maybe a spice you used didn't agree with them... hard to tell. Remember, they start at 6 and go from there (assuming it was KCBS)... so if it was less tasty than that judge expected, a 5 would be the next one down.

SloppyQ, hollywood cut is whe you take a rib and cut all the meat between it and the next bones... Those bones would be trimmed close to the bone, so there's no meat to turn in with them, but there's almost double the meet on the rib getting the hollywood cut (I've also heard it called competition or double cut).

Out of 7 entries I judged last weekend (first time judging), only one was cut that way, and no one at our table thought it helped at all. The presentation wasn't as good as the others because of it, I think.

BBQchef33
08-24-2006, 01:33 PM
Could someone explain more on the Hollywood cut, how to or what it looks like.

From my understanding, hollywood cut is, instead of cutting in between the bones and having meat on both sides, you cut from the same side of the bones down the whole rack. This gives the sample alot of meat on one side,and minimal on the other. risky, becase the side with no(little) meat can tear on the first bite and the whole chunk of meat comes off the bone.

curt, your description turns in 2 bones or one??

Yakfishingfool
08-24-2006, 02:09 PM
Just the opposite Phil, I believe it's one bone with the meat from both sides turned in on it. I liked the way you described better. Yes there is some risk, but the ribs I saw looked good in the box. Scott

cmcadams
08-24-2006, 02:26 PM
:-P:-Phttp://buckymcoinkumsbbq.typepad.com/img/cuts.jpg
Here's my take on the cuts... The first is Hollywood, Double or Competition, the next is whatever Phil said :-P, and the last is what I would consider the standard, cut half way between each bone.

Phil, it would be a one-bone per piece turn in, with the all the meat from both sides of each bone. It results in just under half the ribs being usable (actually int((n-1)/2) or something like that).

butts
08-24-2006, 02:59 PM
3300



These ribs placed 9th out of 41 in Greenwood, SC. The appearance scores were all 8's (all six judges). Notice the white on the edge of the ribs that didn't get sauced or covered with parsley, that's the difference between 8 and 9. 9's in appearance would have placed me two or three notches higher(maybe more). By the way these ribs are cut in the style of "What Jim Said" on cmcadams previous post.

cmcadams
08-24-2006, 03:02 PM
Not to be a jerk, but I'd suspect the issue was as much covering ribs with parsley as anything. Was there a reason to put it on top of some of the ribs? If I were judging it, I'd probably think that the cook was really trying to hide those, but trying to get enough ribs in the box.

butts
08-24-2006, 03:31 PM
I suppose a different approach to plating (placing in the box). I've never had bad scores with this box, although I've never had straight 9's either. So, you might be on to something. By the way, the ribs on the bottom are the same as the ribs on the top, not hiding anything.

cmcadams
08-24-2006, 03:38 PM
I'm not saying you are hiding anything... Just thinking of what I might think if I were judging.

I just looked back at our presentations on ribs... the last time, I think it was pretty good, but someone else, without me knowing it, turned the ribs to show the sides a bit. It was too late to change it... but I really didn't want that :( I think we would have scored better with just 2 layers of 5 ribs each.

http://www.buckymcoinkumsbbq.com/GR2006/grribbox.jpg

thunderbelly
08-24-2006, 04:32 PM
From looking at those two pics, I would say butts' picture if he moved the parsley to the outside of the top row would be the higher score from me (not a trained judge though), I agree with cmcadams that is not the way I would want my ribs turned in either, there is just something about seeing the cut edge

spicewine
08-24-2006, 05:21 PM
Alot of Certified Judges will look for the smoke ring on the cut side of the rib. Showing the cut side isn't always bad.

Fredbird: Why aren't you chimeing in on this post?? You have scored pretty good on ribs!!

Greatgrills
08-24-2006, 07:51 PM
We always place six down and then 2 more on the sides to show the smoke ring. Seem to do pretty good with that.

kcpellethead
08-24-2006, 08:05 PM
Certified judges are instructed not to judge based on the smoke ring because it can be chemically produced. I realize this more specifically applies to brisket, but just the same . . . . If certified judges are scoring entries based on the smoke ring and telling about it, they should be reported. Seriously.

I don't want to take anything away from folks who score well with ribs on their sides. I think we all try to do what works for us. I guess if nothing else, it shows that there is more than one right way . . . .

Rod

P.S. - In addition to the Hollywood cut, I personally think that the double cut rib is a waste unless it is important to you that the judges take-home ziplock is full . . . .

SloppyQ
08-24-2006, 08:21 PM
cmcadams thanks for the hollywood cut clarification.
Butts, according to Ed Roith at CBJ class parsley was good but don't hide the meat, to him it takes away from the meat I would do same presentation again but I would tuck the parsley down more. Still looks good.

spicewine
08-24-2006, 09:25 PM
Rod: Who are you to tell people what is right or wrong with ribs!!!





No Really!! You are Kickin' some Major Butt this year!! You gotta be doing somthin' right!!

You have our respect!! Team Q



Certified judges are instructed not to judge based on the smoke ring because it can be chemically produced. I realize this more specifically applies to brisket, but just the same . . . . If certified judges are scoring entries based on the smoke ring and telling about it, they should be reported. Seriously.

I don't want to take anything away from folks who score well with ribs on their sides. I think we all try to do what works for us. I guess if nothing else, it shows that there is more than one right way . . . .

Rod

P.S. - In addition to the Hollywood cut, I personally think that the double cut rib is a waste unless it is important to you that the judges take-home ziplock is full . . . .

kcpellethead
08-25-2006, 07:43 AM
Thank you Jay, we're hitting some right tables this year for sure. I've learned how to cook by being able to cook with several different great cooks over the years. They all have their own style and taste profile. It's really cool to see that there are many paths to the stage.

See you on the barbecue trail somewhere . . .

Rod

cmcadams
08-25-2006, 08:49 AM
For those of you that are doing well (Rod, YankeeBBQ, etc.), are you using commercial rubs/sauces or your own?

kcpellethead
08-25-2006, 01:48 PM
I'm using one commercial rub and one commercial sauce. That's it. I put it on all four categories. KISS!

Rod

P.S. - There's more to it than just rub and sauce. You still have to select, prep, cook, and present the meat. Looking back, I thought I knew it all when we started cooking. I now know I've barely scratched the surface. I learn something new every time I cook. Those lessons become invaluable. Okay, I'm off my soap box now . . .

cmcadams
08-25-2006, 01:54 PM
Rod, I agree that there's more to it than just pouring on some rub and slapping on some sauce. :)

We're trying to see how far we can go with our own rubs and sauces. I realize people win with commercial stuff, but we're not competing every weekend... we just want to see how well we can do right now with our own recipes. Each time we seem to move up a bit more... now if we can just place in more than one category. :)

SmokeInDaEye
09-06-2006, 04:45 PM
I picked up Dr. BBQ's book the other day and he mentioned chopping the point and placing it under the slices of brisket flat for turn-in. I assume this is to fill more of the upper portion of the box?

But the chopped point is also hidden by the slices so it wouldn't be considered for appearance scores, no matter how good the color, etc. is. Can judges still factor it in for taste and texture scores?

The_Kapn
09-06-2006, 04:50 PM
I picked up Dr. BBQ's book the other day and he mentioned chopping the point and placing it under the slices of brisket flat for turn-in. I assume this is to fill more of the upper portion of the box?

But the chopped point is also hidden by the slices so it wouldn't be considered for appearance scores, no matter how good the color, etc. is. Can judges still factor it in for taste and texture scores?

Absolutely.
If it is in the box, it is part of the entry and fair game for sampling.
So, make it quality stuff :lol:

TIM

chad
09-06-2006, 06:34 PM
Absolutely.
If it is in the box, it is part of the entry and fair game for sampling.
So, make it quality stuff :lol:

TIM

It also helps keep the slices warm and provides some "heft" to the box -- less room for lettuce and parsley!:rolleyes: