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Sawdustguy
08-08-2006, 11:51 AM
I understand those who judge the American Royal will have to pay for the priviledge this year. To judge the open it will cost you a $15 donation and the invitational a $50 donation. IMHO this is dangerous. If this policy is adapted by our local contests, the number of CBJ's at the local level will drop severely. I think the Royal is setting a dangerous trend. What do you think?

Sledneck
08-08-2006, 11:53 AM
BBQ has become big business. I would never pay to judge. That is a big event so they can get away with it i doubt a local could

Sawdustguy
08-08-2006, 11:56 AM
BBQ has become big business. I would never pay to judge. That is a big event so they can get away with it i doubt a local could

Don't think for a minute anyone who runs a contest for profit wouldn't try it.

Sledneck
08-08-2006, 11:56 AM
Good point

Jeff_in_KC
08-08-2006, 12:02 PM
There's really a simple solution if KCBS would get involved:

Local Contest: "Hey KCBS, we're going to start charging judges $10 to judge our contest."

KCBS: "No you're not. You aren't going to charge OUR certified judges to do so."

Local Event: "OK, we'll just use non-certified judges then."

KCBS: "No problem... we'll pull your sanctioning in the morning. Have a nice day."

bigabyte
08-08-2006, 12:03 PM
KCBS has grown along with the Royal. It's pretty big now. This is all an eventuality. Before long, it could be reasonable to presume that with their authoritative stamp on the world of food, they will be the premier-elite of food contests involving BBQ, and it will more resemble the kinds of glamorous contests you see on Food TV than a normal average Joe BBQ contest. Then again I could be wrong, but someone will fill that need, and it seems to me that KCBS is the leader in that field.

Please don't hammer me, it seems logical. No harm meant. Just saying.

Sawdustguy
08-08-2006, 12:33 PM
Jeff,

Wouldn't that be a double standard. The KCBS is allowing the Royal to charge the judges a fee, why not the local contests.

CharlieBeasley
08-08-2006, 01:04 PM
I think I'll pay $50 to judge the super bowl next year and be yet another blind guy in stripes! This is stupid to even consider as a judge I would not pay to do this except in time, gas (both kinds), training, research etc. To pay a contest to judge is the beginning of the end for the BBQ boom in my humble opinion!

G$
08-08-2006, 01:19 PM
There's really a simple solution if KCBS would get involved:

Local Contest: "Hey KCBS, we're going to start charging judges $10 to judge our contest."

KCBS: "No you're not. You aren't going to charge OUR certified judges to do so."

Local Event: "OK, we'll just use non-certified judges then."

KCBS: "No problem... we'll pull your sanctioning in the morning. Have a nice day."

Not sure I get your point. They are charging to judge at the American Royal according to the original poster. I agree this is what they should do, but based on the top of the thread, it would not make sense for them to maintain a double standard.

djmarko
08-08-2006, 01:56 PM
Speaking as a judge who has judged 10 or so contests I would not pay to be a judge at a local contest. Other than Grill Kings which is not that far away almost all the other contests I've done have been 2-4 hours travel time. A couple of them I've even had to get a motel room. I'm not going to add a judging fee to the expenses I already have. I can understand an event like the Royal charging a fee because they probably have so many volunteers it's kind of a way of narrowing down the field to the most serious people.

SinginBob
08-08-2006, 02:08 PM
I can see where some of the bigger contests could get away with charging for judges, but it would kill smaller contests. Bad idea all around in my opinion.:mad:

Jeff_in_KC
08-08-2006, 02:28 PM
Not sure I get your point. They are charging to judge at the American Royal according to the original poster. I agree this is what they should do, but based on the top of the thread, it would not make sense for them to maintain a double standard.

Not a difficult concept... you don't allow ANY contests to charge fees to judges, local, Royal or otherwise.

Westexbbq
08-08-2006, 02:38 PM
I'm on the same page as Rich. I became a KCBS CBJ to pick up inside tips on how I could improve my Q along with the assumption that being able to judge competition bbq is way better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Any payment, nominal or other, doesn't make sense to me. BBQ is my avocation, not my profession.

Smoker
08-08-2006, 03:09 PM
It is just their way of making money. Thats what it has become. I won't be renewing my kcbs membership.

CTSmokehouse
08-08-2006, 03:27 PM
I do not agree with paying to judge. I think that the people who judge, whether it be to gain knowledge to perfect their own Q or for personal satisfaction are making a time and a financial commitment already. Too many BBQ competitions are not fully judged by certified judges. The system is not perfect, but having CBJ's levels the playing field and make things fair to the competitors. My last judging event required traveling 4.5 hr each way, motel room, fuel and auto expense as well as food. It was a great learning experience and I would do it again. I don't think I would pay a fee to judge however.

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

G$
08-08-2006, 03:30 PM
Not a difficult concept... you don't allow ANY contests to charge fees to judges, local, Royal or otherwise.

Fine, but apparently that is exactly what they are not currently advocating nor doing.

jminion
08-08-2006, 05:58 PM
Memphis in May has been charging judges for 4 or 5 years now and don't seem to have a problem getting judges.

Not all contests are charging or will be anytime soon. The Royal as stated is a charity and it is the organizer right to charge, KCBS has no policy on it at this time that I know of.

As someone who does Rep contests just because the judge is certified doesn't make them a good judge, I have seen very good non certified judges. Instruction is given before along with the concepts KCBSis looking for. I find some of those that have judged for many years have a preconcieved ideas of what they are looking for, wouldn't be a bad thing as long as they would let the cooks know what those ideas are before the contest. Some judges just don't get it.

When charities are involved as cook I like to give to them. In Boise I gave the RG check back to the Red Cross as a donation. If you can give, give.
Jim

drbbq
08-08-2006, 06:03 PM
Judging BBQ is a hobby. Kind of like golfing or fishing. If you want to drive a few hours to fish a new lake or judge a new contest, that's up to you. If you want to play a round at Pebble Beach it costs an arm and a leg but it's your hobby. If you want to fish in a stream in Colorado you'll need to drive or fly there, get a hotel room and buy a license. If you don't want to spend that cash, no worries. Someone else will probably fish that stream instead.

No BBQ judge is THAT good at eating free BBQ. They will find someone to judge the free BBQ. They always do.

Smoker
08-08-2006, 06:18 PM
I do think that it makes a difference if the event is a charity. I would hope that the full amount of the judging fee would go to the charity. They should let people know that the judging fee goes to charity(if it does).

Like Mr. Minion said...If you can give, give.

Jeff_in_KC
08-08-2006, 06:45 PM
As someone who does Rep contests just because the judge is certified doesn't make them a good judge, I have seen very good non certified judges. Instruction is given before along with the concepts KCBSis looking for. I find some of those that have judged for many years have a preconcieved ideas of what they are looking for, wouldn't be a bad thing as long as they would let the cooks know what those ideas are before the contest. Some judges just don't get it.


LOTS of judges just don't get it, Jim. :lol: How would you have the judges get around to all the cooks, telling them their preconceived ideas of what they're looking for? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

The_Kapn
08-08-2006, 06:46 PM
This is going "back-wards" if you consider BBQ to be a professional competitive sport.

I can not speak for all sports, but I think they are similar.
Professional officials are paid for their services, not asked to volunteer everything and then pick up their own expenses.
Let alone PAY for the priviledge--gimme a break.

One sport I know well of is USGF Gymnastics. We paid for our own training. We were then paid mileage, lodging, a small per diem and a token fee ($50 or so a day) for judging. The big difference is that, like most pro sports officials, we were held accountable for our performance and not allowed to judge if we did not maintain accuracy standards.

There are no standards in BBQ judging, so "you get what you pay for".

Even local soccer referees are paid a small stipend for services.

There is a subtle mindset at work here.
"I am a volunteer--I will judge like I want" vs
"I am a professional judge--I will try hard to judge according to the guidance".

I am not saying all judges are that way. I know I and Chad are not and I have met many others who really care and try to do an objective job.
But it is there, just under the surface, on a lot of folks.

At an event, some organizers are working for free. Professional organizers take a profit. The wonderful volunteers are not reimbursed. They are supporting their "cause" and that is fine. The band is paid. The REPS are paid.

Officiating is just a cost of doing business and can be absorbed like any other expense IF the promoter attracts a large paying crowd and then provides them with services that they will part with their money for.

Finally, it takes (in general terms) one judge per team plus one table captain per 6 teams. If the judges were paid only a token $25 per event--(for example)-- the entry fee could be raised $30 (about 12% average except for the 'low buck' events) and the organizer would be even.
Even a token payment would impact the attitude of many judges and help with the recruitment of new judges. Not to "get rich", just to be acknowledged as a "Paid Professional".

I would gladly pay $30 more for qualified professional judges IF they were held to a standard. Hell, costs are out of sight now, what's a few $$ more :twisted:

Also, all the "get to eat great BBQ, get to take BBQ home, and support the charity" reasons go nowhere with me. I will be glad to cook, for free, some darn fine BBQ for any judge who wants it. I will even pack and cool some for his trip home. Bring a big cooler! And, I support MY charities, not someone else's--sorry.

Enough here to P*** Off most everyone :lol:
End of rant.

TIM

bbqbull
08-08-2006, 06:54 PM
So..............what do we do? Send a letter of protest to KCBS? I agree with all of you folks, aint gonna pay for no judges. So what do we do now? Im with you guys, but bitching here isnt going to help too much. We need ideas for the next level.

ChipotlePat
08-08-2006, 07:21 PM
Memphis in May has been charging judges for 4 or 5 years now and don't seem to have a problem getting judges.

Not all contests are charging or will be anytime soon. The Royal as stated is a charity and it is the organizer right to charge, KCBS has no policy on it at this time that I know of.

As someone who does Rep contests just because the judge is certified doesn't make them a good judge, I have seen very good non certified judges. Instruction is given before along with the concepts KCBSis looking for. I find some of those that have judged for many years have a preconcieved ideas of what they are looking for, wouldn't be a bad thing as long as they would let the cooks know what those ideas are before the contest. Some judges just don't get it.

When charities are involved as cook I like to give to them. In Boise I gave the RG check back to the Red Cross as a donation. If you can give, give.
Jim



MIM Two years a go They were running short and set every thing behind.

I think it will happen again in Kc and if you think about it at least 1000+ judges paying they will be looking for judges also.

jminion
08-08-2006, 07:23 PM
Jeff judges don't and won't give the teams their ideas of what good BBQ is, they have their nuts handed to them in a lot of cases. Judges are asked to judge under a set of guidelines but you hear things like, they are asking us to not consider garnish but if...... I judge it down. Or if it is sweet they won't get score from me.

I have heard Master Judges set and tell everyone that is within earshot what good BBQ is according to them.

I think more time needs to spent on the concept that a judge is to judge what a cook was trying to achieve, not that it is not what they like.

Judges give of their time and they pay to travel (it's a personel choice), they also recive 2 to 3 pounds of BBQ (pay for there time). If paying a few bucks to charity is too much to ask, you may need to find a new hobby.
Jim

BrooklynQ
08-08-2006, 07:47 PM
If I have to pay to judge, then the food better be cooked, spiced, sauced and presented the way I want it. If I'm paying, then I'm buying. And if I'm buying I want the food my way, not necessarily to KCBS standards.



I think asking judges to pay is a bad precedent and that the quality of the Q will ultimately suffer in the long run. There's a mind set of entitlement that will set in with the judges.

JohnMcD348
08-08-2006, 08:27 PM
I can see how paying to judge would be a problem but liek has been said before, if the fee payed is going to a charity, I myself wouldn't have a problem doing it. I would have a problem paying the fee if it was simply going into the organizers pocket. Alot of the contests around my area sell "PigBucks" that have a dollar value but the vendors turn them in for anywhere from $.50-.90 cents on the dollar so the organizer makes money that way. There coems a point "IF" the money doesn't go to charity, then it becomes greed. And then I start thinking that those in charge are thinking more of themsleves than is really worthwhile.

MilitantSquatter
08-08-2006, 08:28 PM
While the Royal choosing to charge judges for their services makes little sense to me, it is their perogative. If it is clearly stated that the money is for a charity, that's OK by me, as no one is forcing someone to judge. If I really wanted to participate, I'd consider paying a nominal fee as long as the money was not going somewhere I did not feel comfortable with. I don't see this being something that would become widespread at the local contest level. it could happen but I don't think it would catch on.

While I agree with the good Doc, that judging good BBQ is a hobby of sorts, it is still a service being provided. If a service is being provided, one should not be charged for what they contribute. Yes, judges get fed and in general takes little skill other than a class, but to charge someone seems a bit off.


To Jim's point about spending more time on judges juding what the cook is trying to achieve vs. what the judge prefers to his own standards... I never got that concept. It is practically impossible for a judge to know what the cook is trying to acheive. They are not professional tasters.. If a novice cook throws together some store bought rub and KC Masterpiece sauce, the cook may not even know or care what they are trying to achieve...how is a judge supposed to figure that out ?

I like Tim's point of paying a small stipend, just something. With that said, cash can bring out the worst and make the current protocol of no real standards appear even worse.

While it is great that an organization like the KCBS has a long term vision, the age old problem of growing too big, too fast can get the best of any good intentions. More contests will be added as more teams request contests in new areas and organizers can make a profit. The KCBS needs to ensure the problems being discussed at the board meetings have clear actions and timelines set for all issues. Not just kicked around from meeting to meeting. This could be one of those issues that should be put down in writing and voted upon. It's not rocket science.

There are a number of BBQ sanctioning bodies each with their own unique rules etc. Futher fractionalization will undoubtedly continue to grow as more organizations will undoubtedly pop up. Some will be bigger than others, but all will claim their way is the right way and all will have their BBQ Champions at the state and national level etc. Just follow the money...

The KCBS can easily be remain the most recognizeable, but the biggest area I see as the area most in need of work is more clearly defined rules, procedures, etc. as this thread indicates as well as others. The KCBS has grown rapidly and a foldout handbook pamphlet has probably outgrown itself.

I am hopeful the KCBS will continue to elect leaders with a clear vision of what the future should be like and establish better standards now, so they will be easier to adhere to and oversee when the membership is 2-10x's its current size.

G$
08-08-2006, 08:35 PM
Jeff judges don't and won't give the teams their ideas of what good BBQ is, they have their nuts handed to them in a lot of cases. Judges are asked to judge under a set of guidelines but you hear things like, they are asking us to not consider garnish but if...... I judge it down. Or if it is sweet they won't get score from me.

I have heard Master Judges set and tell everyone that is within earshot what good BBQ is according to them.

I think more time needs to spent on the concept that a judge is to judge what a cook was trying to achieve, not that it is not what they like.

Judges give of their time and they pay to travel (it's a personel choice), they also recive 2 to 3 pounds of BBQ (pay for there time). If paying a few bucks to charity is too much to ask, you may need to find a new hobby.
Jim

Jim, you are as qualified as anyone, or more so, on this topic. I appreciate your candor. Please keep the free flow of opinions coming.

However, your premise to me is flawed. Simply because many judges do so as a hobby has nothing to do with whether it is "best" for barbecue competitions to require they also pay. My hobby may be picking up trash in my neighborhood, volunteering at the soup kitchen, or cleaning up the local forest and parkland. It may be volunterring at the Boys and Girls club, walking through my neighborhood, or lifeguarding. To say that because I get pleasure from these hobbies and should therefore pay to do them is a poor premise.

We all understand there are costs associated with holding a contest, and that a plank of KCBS' mission involves charitable contributions. My only point is that requiring judges to pay is not necessarily a good long term decision.

One man's opinion ... what do I know?

jminion
08-08-2006, 09:03 PM
There is a point that keeps coming up and need to be cleared up. The contests are put on by organizers, not KCBS. The organizer put out the call for judges, not KCBS. The organizer, not KCBS, is asking the judges to donate to their charity.

The difference between what is happening here and what happened when MIM required judges pay, the money went to MIM not a charity. That is not the case here.

There are events that are charity events to be part of it, you donate to the charity. It's not unAmerican, it's done all the time.

Jim

Kevin
08-08-2006, 09:13 PM
Thank you for the clarification Jim.

G$
08-08-2006, 09:22 PM
There is a point that keeps coming up and need to be cleared up. The contests are put on by organizers, not KCBS. The organizer put out the call for judges, not KCBS. The organizer, not KCBS, is asking the judges to donate to their charity.

The difference between what is happening here and what happened when MIM required judges pay, the money went to MIM not a charity. That is not the case here.

Great point. personally I assumed KCBS itself organized this particular event, the American Royal. I guess that was a bad assumption.


There are events that are charity events to be part of it, you donate to the charity. It's not unAmerican, it's done all the time.

Jim

Bad Point. I think nobody said donations were "unAmerican". In fact most would say that donating time to help put on a charity based BBQ event is a great form of donation. Donating time to help further barbecue competitions in general is also a form of charity. Lastly, I think the vast majority of the events we enter do donate a (large) portion of the fees directly to Charity already. Personally, I:
A) am ecstatic a large portion of my next competition fee ($250) is going to a charity
and
B) Would at the same time be a little troubled if the judges were required to pay to judge that same event.

I can understand how this may seem contradictory on the surface, but to me, for the reasons BrooklynQ and others stated, it is not.

Jeff_in_KC
08-08-2006, 09:31 PM
Just because KCBS doesn't "put on" the event doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't control what goes on and how it is run. I believe the events should go by KCBS rules and play as KCBS wants it to be played, not the other way around.

LostNation
08-09-2006, 05:55 AM
If I was in the KC area at the time of the Royal and not cooking the contest, I would pay in a heart beat to judge the invitational. I'd love to see how the best cooks in the country turn in their product. I think $50 (to a charity) is pretty cheap for that privilege. Now the open is a different thing. I always thought there was a waiting list to judge the Royal.

CharlieBeasley
08-09-2006, 07:16 AM
I'm with Tim on this and Doc BBQ makes a good point however, I would think that the way to go is not to charge good and bad judges but to find a way to cull the bad judges and make it worthwhile to be a good judges.

Even paid umpires are not all great like the announcer that stated on national TV that the umpire had redefined the strike zone. I would have fired the umpire on the spot (they get paid to be professional). KCSB may not call the judges but they train and certify the reps and as such have a responsibility. I would like to see more training available and for events like the royal may be should be invitation only so there is a reason to be cream of the judges. Sorry a newbie to judging 2 cents!

Jeff_in_KC
08-09-2006, 09:17 AM
I would like to see more training available and for events like the royal may be should be invitation only so there is a reason to be cream of the judges.

Now THERE'S an idea! Don't know how the hell it could be determined who the "cream" was but if it could... wow! That might really improve the judging in the smaller contests.

voodoobbqIL
08-09-2006, 04:00 PM
according to what we were told by our judging instructor, the KCBS is tracking judges overall like they do teams. If you are a judge that routinely scores on the low side of 6 or vice versa then they are supposed to look at that. I am not sure of all of the details in that but I would guess that way they would know who has judged the most and has the most diversity in their scores. But I think an invitation judging system would be a great thing.

djmarko
08-09-2006, 07:43 PM
OK guys I've got my judges hat on now. I read some of these posts last night and began to get really annoyed. I decided to wait until this morning to respond so I wouldn't say anything I would regret. I've only been judging for 2 years now but I've seen alot and experienced alot. I get somewhat annoyed with all the attacks on judges. I'm the first to admit that there are bad judges out there. But guess what? There are also bad cooks out there too. Nobody is perfect.
Question for JMINION. How is a judge supposed to know what a cook is trying to achieve? Judging taste is totally a personal thing. You can't teach it.

Between tolls gas and lodging I have easily spent $120 or more to judge an event. I do it because I enjoy it. To suggest 2-3 lbs of free BBQ is ample compensation for my time and expenses is wrong. I don't judge to get free BBQ. I judge to help promote BBQ competitively. As a matter of fact I've seen a lot of judges just toss what they have left after judging and bring nothing with them. Not all the entries we get are great BBQ.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Giving to charity is a personal decision as far as how much and what charity to give to. It shouldn't be a condition for performing a task that is totally voluntary. I also have to say I was bothered by a statement from another post: "If paying a few bucks to charity is too much to ask, you may need to find a new hobby." I think that's a little harsh. Why should I have to find another hobby because I might object to being told how much to give and what charity I have to give to?

With all the criticism of judges it's amazing to see that according to results of competitions I check, most of the time we get it right. I consistently see the top teams usually placing high up on the list.

The KCBS certifies judges. If there is a problem with how judges are judging, it seems to me that is up to the KCBS to find the problem and correct it.

Let's face it without cooks there are no competitions and without judges there are no competitions. Remember if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Can't we all just get along?

There, I feel better now.

jminion
08-09-2006, 10:03 PM
Question for JMINION. How is a judge supposed to know what a cook is trying to achieve? Judging taste is totally a personal thing. You can't teach it.

Rich
Would be happy to answer your question. You say judging taste is totally a personel thing. That is true but (and I hear this often) judges will state white meat when judging chicken. White meat is going to be dry as an example, therefore that judge can't give it the type score dark meat would get.

A judge will state if it doesn't have crispy skin I judge it down.

A judge will state I don't like a sweet product or a spicy turn-in therefore I won't get another turn-in could recieve.

As a judge we need to judge what the cook was trying to do. As example the the cook turns-in chicken (white meat) his skin is tender not chrispy. He uses a sweet sauce. As a judge, does it get a lower score because you like crispy spicy chicken? If the answer is yes then you're not doing your job as a judge. That turn-in should be judged based on how well that cook did, not on the judges personel preferences. Was the breast moist, was the rub and glazed balenced with each other, that's judging.

I hope that clears up my statment.
Jim

MilitantSquatter
08-09-2006, 10:15 PM
Jim,

I totally understand where you're coming from and I agree

BUT to play devil's advocate for the sake of the discussion of the specific point about judging what the cook is trying do do, sounds great but truly not feasible.

How many times does a cook or team take product off the pit, to taste it and say something like " It taste's like chit, too overdone,too spicy, wrong color etc"... Obviously the team did not even turn out the product that they envisioned... The team may score great... but that's not what the team envisioned... How would a judge know that ? All they knew is that they liked it even if the team did not.

Now for the really off the wall example...What if a team overloads on extremely high ratio of salt for a rub as they absolutely love salty ribs and what they want to accomplish. They take it off the pit and say "It's perfect, just what how I wanted it".. All the judges eat it and judge taste as a 2 because the salt is truly overpowering to everyone else... Should they truly judge on the side of the cook with the benefit of the doubt that the cook wanted them to try salty ribs or take their own opinion into account that the flavor is off balance ?

Again.. not disagreeing... just generating discussion as to how it is explained in a judges class as to what the expectation should be.

Sawdustguy
08-09-2006, 10:40 PM
OK guys I've got my judges hat on now. I read some of these posts last night and began to get really annoyed. I decided to wait until this morning to respond so I wouldn't say anything I would regret. I've only been judging for 2 years now but I've seen alot and experienced alot. I get somewhat annoyed with all the attacks on judges. I'm the first to admit that there are bad judges out there. But guess what? There are also bad cooks out there too. Nobody is perfect.
Question for JMINION. How is a judge supposed to know what a cook is trying to achieve? Judging taste is totally a personal thing. You can't teach it.

Between tolls gas and lodging I have easily spent $120 or more to judge an event. I do it because I enjoy it. To suggest 2-3 lbs of free BBQ is ample compensation for my time and expenses is wrong. I don't judge to get free BBQ. I judge to help promote BBQ competitively. As a matter of fact I've seen a lot of judges just toss what they have left after judging and bring nothing with them. Not all the entries we get are great BBQ.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Giving to charity is a personal decision as far as how much and what charity to give to. It shouldn't be a condition for performing a task that is totally voluntary. I also have to say I was bothered by a statement from another post: "If paying a few bucks to charity is too much to ask, you may need to find a new hobby." I think that's a little harsh. Why should I have to find another hobby because I might object to being told how much to give and what charity I have to give to?

With all the criticism of judges it's amazing to see that according to results of competitions I check, most of the time we get it right. I consistently see the top teams usually placing high up on the list.

The KCBS certifies judges. If there is a problem with how judges are judging, it seems to me that is up to the KCBS to find the problem and correct it.

Let's face it without cooks there are no competitions and without judges there are no competitions. Remember if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Can't we all just get along?

There, I feel better now.


Rich,

I couldn't have said it better myself if I tried. Cookers vs Judges has been a love-hate relationship since competitions have started. Almost all of the critcism, ruckus and such comes mostly from us cookers and that isn't right. Without judges there are no contests. We as competitors have to learn that judges volunteer so we can compete. It is as simple as that. If we not are careful all the judges that care enough and take pride in judging will be gone. They are human beings with feelings too.

Westexbbq
08-09-2006, 10:45 PM
Folks, I was getting a similar drift re a slant against the judges and was pleased to read Rich's opinion above; captured a lot of my feelings as well.
I don't take a cooler and baggies to the judge's tent for free take out either!
I grew up eating bbq in Texas and Oklahoma, went back to school in Dallas after moving with the folks to L.I. and started smoking low and slow several years back long before the recent bbq boom here on Lawn Guyland and the only reason I became a Judge is to objectively be able to give my personal opinion on whether I like the turn in sample I get a chance to score as per KCBS. I empathize and respect the devotion and labor of love it takes to be a competition cook and will only judge each sample with a truly open mind and truly strive to not let my personal preferences prevail.
But, it is blind judging as we all know, and there are always (should be) plenty judges to go around so that there is a reasonable sample of tastes and preferences in place to produce a fair and accountable rendering of all the teams turn ins.
That said, I still had one of the worst pieces of brisket I had ever seen, touched or tasted at the recent Grill Kings and I hammered it pretty good score wise. Sorry but it was the right thing to do.
End of rant,
Wes

djmarko
08-10-2006, 10:29 AM
Vinny, Guy and Wes thanks for your input. You all made good points that I intended to make had you not beat me to it.

Jim, thanks for your response. You gave several examples of what a judge might say. I'm sure there are hundreds of similar scenarios from different judges. For some scenarios a judge can't help making a decision based on his preferences. If an entry has a lot of hot pepper on it and that particular judge doesn't care for hot pepper should that judge ignore his tastes? That would only involve a score for taste. That shouldn't effect the score for presentation or tenderness. I guess that is why each entry is judged by 6 different people. You hope to get a varied group of people that will arrive at a fair conclusion.
I still don't understand how a judge is expected to know what a cook is trying to achieve. The end product might not turn out to be what the cook was actually trying to achieve. Without the cook verbally communicating his intentions to the judge there is no way for the judge to know his intentions. The judge would have to read the mind of the cook to know his intentions. If you are saying the way the entry is presented is what the cook is trying to achieve, does that mean if it's a dry, overcooked piece of meat that's what the cook was trying to achieve? I think not.

In my judging experience I have found that every event I do I learn more and more. Only so much can be taught at the CBJ class. A good judge will continue to learn and his judging skills will get better each time. Very similar to the education of a cook. Over time their cooking skills improve through experience. I can only speak for myself. When I judge, I take it very seriously. I do my best to get it right.

Sawdustguy
08-10-2006, 12:41 PM
Can we clone you Rich? It's plain to see that you take pride in what you do. :cool: :biggrin:

Sawdustguy
08-10-2006, 12:55 PM
Mr. Minion,

I don't think I would have a problem with djmarko judging my turn-in at all. What do you do with a judge that is obviously trying to punish a competitor. I was wrongfully DQed at a contest back in July(not the judges fault): http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19279. One of the judges gave me a 1 3 3. He was obviously trying to punish me for the alleged cheating.

ModelMaker
08-10-2006, 01:37 PM
Well, I've been reading and thinking on this for two days now. First off, no I'll not pay to judge your BBQ. Just like you I have to drive a 6mpg motorhome up two 2 hrs from my home. I have to pay for camping . I have to pay for supplies (Vodka & beer). Just to judge "Up In Smoke" I figure I spent $120, I'm not complaining it's what the wife and I wanted to do. But I'll not pay to judge your BBQ.
I started doing this because BBQ is something I love to cook,eat, yak about with others. The people I've met cooks, judges, contest organizers have all been absolutley fantastic! I am happy to have met them all.
On the subject of "weeding out bad judges" by having them pay to judge,
WTF is that all about, because I don't want to feed someones back patting charity I'm a bad judge? I am new this year to judging but I give you cooks my very best attention and honest effort. I know from this site and talking to you what it takes to send a sampling of your product to be judged and I do not take that lightly. You put forth sweat, tears, and yes cash to attend your various contests and you deserve to have the best.
Am I the best? Not yet, each contest I rethink what it is I should do or have done differently. Each contest I try to do better than I did last time. When I stop trying to be better, than I'll quit. I'm not built that way, do do things half-assed.
Talking home samples? Didn't do it at all first few contests this year. Got tired of hearing the wife wish she could have tasted the chicken I was beaming about or the pork was bland and mushy, or how great the brisket was this contest. So now I bring her samples of the good and the bad and let her know the difference. No apoligies from me just a practicle solution to have something to share with my wife after a contest.
For the most part I have had a GREAT summer judging BBQ. I made the right decision on another way to spend part of my free time just as you have.
So pay to judge? Not gonna happen here.
See ya on the road.
ModelMaker

djmarko
08-10-2006, 01:49 PM
Can we clone you Rich? It's plain to see that you take pride in what you do. :cool: :biggrin:

I'm not sure if the wife would want me cloned.
Thanks for the kind words. I would be honored to judge your food..... as long as you don't fry it!

jminion
08-11-2006, 01:56 AM
Guy
Your story needs to be told to the Rep committee and a ruling on how to handle your turn-in in the future needs to be made.
I have asked the question on the Rep forum, I will let you know how the technique will be handled in the future.
Jim

jminion
08-11-2006, 08:12 PM
Guy
There has been a lot of talk about your turn-in, a couple of Reps have said they would DQ your turn-in but neither could come up with a rule you broke.

This will go before the Rep committee and will come before the Board. A clarification will be decided upon.

As someone else advised if you plan on doing that turn-in again I would go privately the Rep and explain the technique so they don't have to make a snap and at this point wrong call.

I know this doesn't change your outcome from that competition but it is a great lesson to anyone that is pushing the lines with a turn-in that is not normaly seen.

Sawdustguy
08-11-2006, 10:31 PM
Guy
There has been a lot of talk about your turn-in, a couple of Reps have said they would DQ your turn-in but neither could come up with a rule you broke.

This will go before the Rep committee and will come before the Board. A clarification will be decided upon.

As someone else advised if you plan on doing that turn-in again I would go privately the Rep and explain the technique so they don't have to make a snap and at this point wrong call.

I know this doesn't change your outcome from that competition but it is a great lesson to anyone that is pushing the lines with a turn-in that is not normaly seen.

Jim,

Thank you for the feedback. I have emailed a number of people at the KCBS about this and never got a response. I wasn't sure if I had gotten through to anyone. I really want to say thank you for acting on our behalf. I understand that nothing can be done about that competition. My hope is to prevent this from happening again to someone else. Our technique does make for very moist and tasty chicken with ultra crisp skin.

Westexbbq
08-11-2006, 10:46 PM
And I have tried the technique, it is true, and it is good.
Thanks,
Wes
Good luck Dr. G.

Sledneck
10-13-2007, 12:15 PM
BUMP. one of my favorites

NotleyQue
10-13-2007, 01:22 PM
couldnt agree more.


Judging BBQ is a hobby. Kind of like golfing or fishing. If you want to drive a few hours to fish a new lake or judge a new contest, that's up to you. If you want to play a round at Pebble Beach it costs an arm and a leg but it's your hobby. If you want to fish in a stream in Colorado you'll need to drive or fly there, get a hotel room and buy a license. If you don't want to spend that cash, no worries. Someone else will probably fish that stream instead.

No BBQ judge is THAT good at eating free BBQ. They will find someone to judge the free BBQ. They always do.

Mo-Dave
10-14-2007, 02:37 PM
Rich made some really good points as did many others for or against paying to judge.

I volunteer to judge spending my own money and personal time only to get a few bits of not always up to par food, have even had spoiled food set in front of me. I rarely take any home and most times a judge gets nothing for their efforts except a hardy thank you, from the rep and organizer.

I know I do not have as much invested as a cook and don't expect to get anything from judging except the experience of doing it. As far as paying to do it on top of what I spend and give up just to get there and spend the better part of my day doing it, "Ant going to happen". And if I am not going to judge then I wont be needing the subscription to the KCBS Bullsheet which is the membership required for a CBJ to maintain CBJ status and be able to archive a Master CBJ ranking, at which point they may receive a small steepen for their services.

Yes they may always be able to fill the judging slots with off the street people, even charge them for the opportunity but I can only guess they will only do it once. If it comes to that then I will stop being a CBJ.

If I want to stay involved then I will volunteer, without added cost or rules like not being able to visit with the teams before judging which is half the reason I do it, "Insert stupid rule here". Plus as a volunteer I am not subject to all the complaints about judges and will be able to eat and take as much food as I can home, if I care to. Wait a minute why not charge table Captains and all the volunteers as well.

Just off the top of my head with the cost of judging contest that I do judge in a year I could afford to cook at least one more contest. And that is what I really want to do anyway. As a cook I have a vision of looking in the judging area as I hand in my box only to see 3 or 4 judges sitting at a single table for a 50 pluss team contest.

By now I guess you should know I think all CBJs should get a compensation for judging, not charged. I am ok without compensation but for Gods Sake don't even entertain the idea of charging me for it. Just my nichole .38 cents worth.
Dave

peculiarmike
10-14-2007, 10:07 PM
Have not seen anyone posting here that says they have gone to the Royal folks to get the straight poop.
I believe those being charged to judge were uncertified folks wanting to judge the open class. Reason - there are a bazillion wanting to judge.
Only KCBS certified judges, a lot of them Master Judges, were used to judge the invitational, and they were not charged.
This from Ed Roith during a certification class I was helping do sample prep and table captain for.

"If they just had better judges I'd win."
If you turned in better Q you would win. Someone's was better than yours.

StLouQue
10-19-2007, 01:22 PM
Have not seen anyone posting here that says they have gone to the Royal folks to get the straight poop.
I believe those being charged to judge were uncertified folks wanting to judge the open class. Reason - there are a bazillion wanting to judge.
Only KCBS certified judges, a lot of them Master Judges, were used to judge the invitational, and they were not charged.
This from Ed Roith during a certification class I was helping do sample prep and table captain for.


As I've mentioned elsewhere, I became a CBJ in Kansas City two weeks ago. Out of curiosity regarding the AR judging fees allegation, I emailed Jolene DeMoss Wednesday asking for clarfication. This is her response received yesterday:

Steve -- I am glad you enjoyed the class. The American Royal asks for a $15 donation from all NON-Certified Judges. All of the KCBS judges are not asked to donate anything. This donation is used to cover our costs. We give all judges free parking, a commemorative apron and two different pins.

All of our money ultimately goes into scholarships to students pursuing a college education -- The less we use on hard costs, the more we are able to give out to promoting education.

Hope this helps and I will look forward to seeing you next year. Thanks!

Jolene DeMoss
Barbecue & Special Events Coordinator

1701 American Royal Court
Kansas City, MO 64102
816.569.4036
www.americanroyal.com

Mo-Dave
10-20-2007, 11:27 AM
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I became a CBJ in Kansas City two weeks ago. Out of curiosity regarding the AR judging fees allegation, I emailed Jolene DeMoss Wednesday asking for clarfication. This is her response received yesterday:

Steve -- I am glad you enjoyed the class. The American Royal asks for a $15 donation from all NON-Certified Judges. All of the KCBS judges are not asked to donate anything. This donation is used to cover our costs. We give all judges free parking, a commemorative apron and two different pins.

All of our money ultimately goes into scholarships to students pursuing a college education -- The less we use on hard costs, the more we are able to give out to promoting education.

Hope this helps and I will look forward to seeing you next year. Thanks!

Jolene DeMoss
Barbecue & Special Events Coordinator

1701 American Royal Court
Kansas City, MO 64102
816.569.4036
www.americanroyal.com (http://www.americanroyal.com)

Jolene thanks for clearing that up. Guess it was not as bad as it first appeared to be.
Dave