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View Full Version : How to get DQed for no reason in 9 easy steps


Sawdustguy
07-21-2006, 05:10 PM
The Two Fat Polocks BBQ Team went to Grill Kings with a new recipe for chicken with really crisp skin. It is not a secret recipe but it makes very crispy skin and has wonderful flavor. We were disqualified (given 1's in appearance) by the judges because it was deemed that these results must have been achieved by means other than BBQ. If you ever want to be disqualified, here is how to do it in 9 easy steps.


http://www.2fatpolocksbbq.com/webimages/step1.jpg

Step 1. Take your everyday chicken thighs and inject them with your favorite poultry injection.


http://www.2fatpolocksbbq.com/webimages/step2.jpg

Step 2. Season your flour with your favorite poultry rub and crack a few eggs into a bowl.


http://www.2fatpolocksbbq.com/webimages/step3.jpg

Step 3. Dredge your thighs in your seasoned flour.


http://www.2fatpolocksbbq.com/webimages/step4.jpg

Step 4. Place them in a pan and they are ready to take to the grill.


http://www.2fatpolocksbbq.com/webimages/step5.jpg

Step 5. Place them on a grill for indirect grilling. You can smoke them if you wish. We had no more room in the smoker so we indirect grilled them with some apple chuncks for flavor. Direct grilling will burn them.


http://www.2fatpolocksbbq.com/webimages/step6.jpg

Step 6. If you indirect grill them turn them over for some grill marks.

http://www.2fatpolocksbbq.com/webimages/step8.jpg


Step 7. Present them as you see fit


Step8: Receive your notice from the Contest Rep that you have been DQ'ed

Step 9: Be happy because the disqualification caused you to finish outside the top ten



It's that simple boys and girls. Be the first on your block to be disqualified for absolutely no reason.

bbqjoe
07-21-2006, 05:14 PM
*speechless*

Ron_L
07-21-2006, 05:23 PM
I'm sorry that you were DQ'd Guy. That sucks.

But... If you showed me a picture of that chicken (or showed me the chicken), without the explanation, I would think it was fried from the appearance, so I can see where a judge would come to that conclusion.

So... This brings up an interesting question. If a judge has a question about the cooking method involved, should they contact the KCBS rep, and should the rep talk to the competitor to verify the method used? I understand that this process would take time, but it would be better than a blind DQ as you experienced.

Also, thanks for the heads up. I don't think we'll be using your chicken method at any comps in the future. :rolleyes:

Sawdustguy
07-21-2006, 05:32 PM
Ron,

I just thought I would have some fun with this post because it is a no win situation not worth loosing sleep over. We came in 12th overall but the DQ definetely cost us a top ten finish. It's water under the bridge now so I thought I would have some fun with it.

kcquer
07-21-2006, 05:41 PM
Guy, that is absolutely BULL****. A DQ based upon a guess at how the chicken was cooked is just BULL****. If you had been "caught" frying the chicken, that would be grounds for a DQ, but assuming without any proof is just wrong. The contest judges and reps owe you an apology and your money back, and they need to be removed from any position that would allow them to make any such decision in the future.

What a crock.

MrSmoker
07-21-2006, 05:41 PM
Thats just farking wrong Guy.I thought about doing smofried chicken,using a dutch oven with charcoal to heat the oil.:confused:

bbqjoe
07-21-2006, 05:48 PM
Guy, that is absolutely BULL****. A DQ based upon a guess at how the chicken was cooked is just BULL****. If you had been "caught" frying the chicken, that would be grounds for a DQ, but assuming without any proof is just wrong. The contest judges and reps owe you an apology and your money back, and they need to be removed from any position that would allow them to make any such decision in the future.

What a crock.
That's what I couldn't find the words to say!

The_Kapn
07-21-2006, 05:56 PM
Guy,
I am going to pick my words carefully. Please do not read between the lines here.

I cooked with Ray Lampe at Arthur. We had a discussion about folks "pushing the limits" and "experimenting" at comps. He "lets others break new ground". I have not forgotten that.

From what I know of the rules, you were legal. But....I am not a Rep or all that experienced in "the edges" of the rules.

I do think if you had cooked them on a plate or in a skillet with oil or something, that would have been frying. But, based on your pictures you did not.

IMHO (with limited experience) you were legal.
Apparently, the egg-flower coating caught them off-guard.

Now, what to do ?????????

This can be a positive learning experience for all.

I would send a polite letter to KCBS with prints of your cooking process.
Ask for a decision for the future.
I really think they will look at it and advise you and the Reps how to handle this process in the future.
No way to fix the GK results, but "clear the decks" for future events.

I guess the only thing you could have done different at GK was to call the Rep over and explain what you were doing in advance. Offer to show him the process if he desired.
But, this would have required you determining you were "on the edge" and .....maybe you did not realize this could cause probelms.
Every Rep I have ever met hates--really, really hates--to DQ.
I think they would have worked with you to change your process or approve it. At least he would not have been surprised in the judging tent.

But, that is all hindsight and worthless now.

Side Note--only Reps can DQ. Judges and Table Captains can only call items to Reps attention. Only Reps make a DQ decision.

I do admire your ingenuity and will try that------ here at home :lol: :lol:

TIM

Sawdustguy
07-21-2006, 06:10 PM
I agree Tim. I kinda wrote this tounge in cheek. In the scale of things we encounter in life, it's really no biggie. Just thought I would have some fun with it and prevent someone else from making the same mistake.

BBQchef33
07-21-2006, 06:22 PM
Now that I think of it...heres something similar and adds to kapns advice.

We have a kind of unique brisket presentation. Rumor had it that the presentation has been disallowed as possible "sculpting" or "marking". On saturday morning, I spoke to Rod Grey about his feelings on the presentation. His advice was to talk to the rep and give him a heads up so he is aware of it at turnin time.... in case an issue comes up withthe judges. Technically, the presentation is allowed. I spoke to the rep early, he made a mental note, and nothing else was said, or happened. So.. I guess, for future contests, we know, that IF you use that technique again, that it may be wise to bring the rep over WHILE IT IS COOKING!!! That will avoid the DQ, but still leaves the question as to how the judges will score it.

it does look fried in the pictures.. :eek:

and made me hungry. :twisted: :mrgreen:

Ron_L
07-21-2006, 06:41 PM
and made me hungry. :twisted: :mrgreen:

I forgot to add that to my post. It really looks good. I may have to try it at home.

Rockaway BeachBQ
07-21-2006, 07:00 PM
Well, how do I say this?

I judged your chicken.

I debated whether or not i wanted to let you know, but I feel I can offer some input on this.

No one commented on the chicken while judging for appearance. But when sampling began someone said to the table captain that they thought the chicken MIGHT have been fried. Several others including myself agreed that the chicken might have been fried. The table captain then summoned the KCBS reps, who examined the chicken and then instructed everyone at the table to give the chicken a 1 for appearance and continue to score it for taste and tenderness. I was very surprised, I seem to recall this exact sort of question being covered at the Judges class and the Rep stating that questionably cooked item should be scored as is, while a KCBS Rep verified the preparation method.

Now maybe the Rep simply felt that oven-fried chicken was not Barbecue and DQed you on that basis, but I would still take up the issue with KCBS for further clarification of the rules.

lazybonesmoke1
07-21-2006, 07:27 PM
That sucks! Live and learn I guess.The chicken looks great though.

BrooklynQ
07-21-2006, 08:24 PM
Guy - I'd fight this, but that's just how I am.

Rule 6 of the KCBS rules state:
"Parboiling and/or deep-frying competition meat is not allowed."

According to Wikipedia: Deep frying is a cooking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking) method whereby food is submerged in hot oil or fat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat).

And also according to Wikipedia: Pan frying is a form of frying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frying) characterized by the use of less cooking oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_oil) than deep frying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_frying); enough oil to, at most, cover the food to be cooked only half way.

Reading the rules, deep frying is specifically banned. OK, no problem.

But pan frying is not. So, that would mean that fried chicken is allowed as per the rules. So even if you DID fry the chicken it still should have been allowed and you should not have been DQ'd.

timzcardz
07-21-2006, 09:03 PM
I really don't know anything about judging and the rules, but that is some incredibly delicious looking chicken!

And it is great to see that you can have some fun with this unfortunate and apparently unwarranted experience.

Sawdustguy
07-21-2006, 09:59 PM
Well, how do I say this?

I judged your chicken.

I debated whether or not i wanted to let you know, but I feel I can offer some input on this.

No one commented on the chicken while judging for appearance. But when sampling began someone said to the table captain that they thought the chicken MIGHT have been fried. Several others including myself agreed that the chicken might have been fried. The table captain then summoned the KCBS reps, who examined the chicken and then instructed everyone at the table to give the chicken a 1 for appearance and continue to score it for taste and tenderness. I was very surprised, I seem to recall this exact sort of question being covered at the Judges class and the Rep stating that questionably cooked item should be scored as is, while a KCBS Rep verified the preparation method.

Now maybe the Rep simply felt that oven-fried chicken was not Barbecue and DQed you on that basis, but I would still take up the issue with KCBS for further clarification of the rules.

There is nothing fried about it. No oil is used. The skin is simply battered. We would have done it in the smoker if we had the room at the time. The chicken was indeed smoked if you read the whole post. It was indirectly grilled using apple wood chunks. If thats not BBQ I don't know what is? Was it too moist and tasty to be BBQ chicken?

GIRLYQUE
07-21-2006, 10:04 PM
That's really a shame. The end result looked great!
Better luck next time.

Rockaway BeachBQ
07-21-2006, 10:32 PM
There is nothing fried about it. No oil is used. The skin is simply battered. We would have done it in the smoker if we had the room at the time. The chicken was indeed smoked if you read the whole post. It was indirectly grilled using apple wood chunks. If thats not BBQ I don't know what is? Was it too moist and tasty to be BBQ chicken? I guess I should have gone with my instincts and kept my mouth shut. I was only trying to let you know what happened, and not giving my opinion as to whether or not Chicken that is passed through a standard breading procedure is barbecue.

To clarify, I thought the chicken was delicious, however I and every single judge at the table agreed the chicken MIGHT have been fried. The Contest Rep was notified and DQed you on the spot, that was his decision. I think it is a Judges and a Table Captain's responsibility to notify the Rep when they think a rule MAY have been broken. The Rep is then responsible for the decision whether or the rules have been broken. He did not consult you before making his decision which also MAY have been a violation of the rules. I was only trying to give you all of the information, so that you could make an informed complaint. For all I know I could be violating the rules by discussing this with you all. If you have any questions please PM me.

Jeff_in_KC
07-21-2006, 10:40 PM
OK I don't blame Brother Rockaway Beach for the DQ. I blame the contest rep. I think Rock was doing his job. The rep owed it to Guy to go look him up and ask how it was cooked rather than just assuming cuz whoever the rep was sure made the ASS (what happens when you assume) out of himself this time.

bbqjoe
07-21-2006, 10:42 PM
The table captain then summoned the KCBS reps, who examined the chicken and then instructed everyone at the table to give the chicken a 1 for appearance and continue to score it for taste and tenderness.
Not being in the circuit, but I found this to be the most disturbing part.
The rep can tell the judges how to cast a vote?
This doesn't sound much like a democracy. Or right.

But I don't know from these things.

Sawdustguy
07-21-2006, 10:45 PM
I guess I should have gone with my instincts and kept my mouth shut. I was only trying to let you know what happened, and not giving my opinion as to whether or not Chicken that is passed through a standard breading procedure is barbecue.

To clarify, I thought the chicken was delicious, however I and every single judge at the table agreed the chicken MIGHT have been fried. The Contest Rep was notified and DQed you on the spot, that was his decision. I think it is a Judges and a Table Captain's responsibility to notify the Rep when they think a rule MAY have been broken. The Rep is then responsible for the decision whether or the rules have been broken. He did not consult you before making his decision which also MAY have been a violation of the rules. I was only trying to give you all of the information, so that you could make an informed complaint. For all I know I could be violating the rules by discussing this with you all. If you have any questions please PM me.

Don't take my post the wrong way. You and the other judges did your job as you should have. The problem lies between the cheif judge and contest rep. I am not sore at you. I am very thankful you brought it up because otherwise I would never have known why.

cmcadams
07-21-2006, 11:01 PM
RB, I don't think Guy was getting on you at all, esp with his last post. It's a bit enlightening to hear this, and a pity that the rep didn't do what he should have, from what I can see.

Joe, before DQ'ing something, the table captain/rep has to be notified. If it's to be DQ'ed, they'll tell the rest of the table, too. Other than that, they don't tell judges what to put down. if a judge is consistently way off, the table captain can pull them aside and talk to them, I think, too.

Rockaway BeachBQ
07-22-2006, 12:04 AM
OK, I would hate to have any bad feelings here. Did I mention how delicious the chicken was?

kcquer
07-22-2006, 12:18 AM
I challenge any official from KCBS to read this thread beginning to end and provide a valid explanition.

There is no excuse for a DQ based on speculation. It's a credible as looking at a rib and saying this looks like it came from a grocery store deli, it's dq'd.

Sawdustguy
07-22-2006, 12:34 AM
OK, I would hate to have any bad feelings here. Did I mention how delicious the chicken was?

Thank you. I appreciate your candor and honesty.:biggrin:

ModelMaker
07-22-2006, 10:37 AM
At the judges table at BBQ Loo we were talking between catagories and I wondered with my limited experience if they ever saw wings for the chicken catagory and one of the judges who also is a comp. cook said that wings were too close to the edge and they avoided the edge because they didn't know if the judges would appreciate that.
That's too bad because the edge is a good place for me. I would love to see something new and daring. What about the rest of you judges, do you always want samo,samo?
It's a shame what happened to you, and I guess the lesson to be learned is if you want to walk on the edge find the rep and inform him or her and then go for it.
I'll be waiting.
ModelMaker

arlieque
07-22-2006, 12:16 PM
As a contest organizer I would like to know who the reps were? What if you had used the skake and bake stuff abd baked in the smoker?
There needs to be a book for the reps on what to do at cookoffs that they keep with them so they understand the rules.
Arlie

Q Haven
07-22-2006, 02:08 PM
From the KCBS web site:

07/15 - 07/16 2006
Elmont, NY
State Championship
4th Annual Grill Kings Long Island BBQ Cookoff (http://www.grillkings.com/)
Contact: Dean Camastro, 1230 Hempstead Turnpike, Franklin Square, NY 11010
Phone: 516-328-1001 or [NULL] Fax: 516-354-4015
E-mail: dmc@grillkings.com (dmc@grillkings.com)
KCBS Reps: Ken Dakai, Murray Saltzman, Kathy Dakai

thirdeye
07-22-2006, 02:08 PM
That's a bummer. Not being a comp guy I'm really not qualified to comment on the official ruling, but ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/thirdeye2/Barbeque/b700a10b.jpg

I often cook chicken dusted in cornstarch in my Big Green Egg, indirect at 350°. The appearance is very fried-like. I guess my point is, this is not a new technique by any means. Agreed it is different, but it's just one of the techniques folks do for crispy skin and maybe shouldn't have been discounted so quickly.

racer_81
07-22-2006, 02:12 PM
Like Thirdeye, I don't compete.

But the ruling to DQ based on an assumption that it was fried is ridiculous.

Mrs. Sawdust
07-22-2006, 10:26 PM
As a contest organizer I would like to know who the reps were? What if you had used the skake and bake stuff abd baked in the smoker?
There needs to be a book for the reps on what to do at cookoffs that they keep with them so they understand the rules.
Arlie

Arlie,
The original recipe called for us to cook the chicken in the smoker. During the Comp. we did cook half in the smoker but ran out of room so half went on the grill ( indirect with wood chips ). They turn out the same.

Sawdustguy
07-22-2006, 10:31 PM
Thirdeye,

You are absolutely correct! This is not a new technique. My pop used it when we were young. Thats why it is so puzzling to me.

Kirk
07-24-2006, 07:56 AM
Sorry to hear about the DQ. Did you guys have any suspicion that the judges might not go for your technique? Being new to the comp scene myself, if I'm not sure of something I run it past the organizers or judges before trying it. That way there's no confusion and no hard feelings. It definately sounds like they should've put a little more effort into the decision to score you like that though.

Jeff_in_KC
07-24-2006, 08:19 AM
Guy, it's been quite the year for you all... getting sick, your bro getting drunk, axle on your smoker breaking, DQ for being just different... ever thought about something simple and easy like competing in rugby, lacrosse, horseracing or yachting? Plus, at least yachting HAS to be cheaper than BBQing! :roll:

Sawdustguy
07-24-2006, 09:45 AM
Guy, it's been quite the year for you all... getting sick, your bro getting drunk, axle on your smoker breaking, DQ for being just different... ever thought about something simple and easy like competing in rugby, lacrosse, horseracing or yachting? Plus, at least yachting HAS to be cheaper than BBQing! :roll:

Great post Jeff! I made me laugh alot. It has been quite a challenge but I am not giving up yet. Michele and I have thought about it but we enjoy it too much. With all that happened at Grill Kings we really had a great time. Saturday night was like a block party. Poobah brought Linguine, Willy B brought Clams, we brought 100 ears of corn, Sledneck brought his Croation sausages. We ate like Kings. The bottom line is that we have invested in a new Spicewine smoker and a new 8.5 x 14 cargo trailer to be converted into a portable kitchen. We are in it for the long haul.

CharlieBeasley
07-24-2006, 12:54 PM
You are a good man to even try to have a light heart with this. I know it does not help but my though is what goes around usually comes around and there is a rep who needs some training and judges that need new leadership. Thanks for being a good person and let others crush their little pin heads good looking chicken bytheway.

HoDeDo
07-24-2006, 12:58 PM
I would raise the issue with KCBS, and the contest organizer.... Never seen anything like that happen before in a contest scenario -- and I have seen some items go in that definately skirt the edge of acceptable. It would be interesting to know how many of the judges you had were certified, vs. not....

I would not think that what you did was too far outside of standard fare that it would require you to speak to the rep up front... but that is good advice. Just a strange incident overall.

Sorry to see that happen to you. Great looking chicken. I'll be trying that soon.

I guess we can call it the "How many Pollaks does it take to..... mod"

IMHO - you were robbed, and the correct process was NOT followed.

Let us know how it does at the next contest! Keep it up!

Mrs. Sawdust
07-24-2006, 01:03 PM
.. ever thought about something simple and easy like competing in rugby, lacrosse, horseracing or yachting? Plus, at least yachting HAS to be cheaper than BBQing! :roll:


Yachting sounds good but the cooker won't fit :-D

Westexbbq
07-25-2006, 02:50 PM
Dr. Guy,
I too was a CBJ at Grill Kings 2006 and as most of us know, it is all "blind" judging; your turn-in chicken was not judged at my table. As others have stated, it does appear fried but the consensus seems to already agree on giving the KCBS rep a heads up ahead of time going forward to avoid any confusion. I am certainly going to try the recipe soon as it not only looks good but I am sure taste's good as well. By the way, our table did have to give a couple of entries a 1 on appearance after one judge found a small piece of foil in their sample. Thus, as per the KCBS rep, the rest of us crossed out our prior appearance grade, changed to a 1 and wrote the turn in box number on the back of our cards with the word FOIL. This happened once on ribs and later once on brisket; different judges each time; a shame because the taste and texture grades will counted, but a 1 on appearance, albeit the lightest weighted category, does hurt. I made a mental note to be very careful when I turn in comp meats if I have foiled them at all to make sure none gets to the judges. Thanks again for the recipe though and of course no one likes to get DQ'd and I am sure the KCBS rep and judges don't like it either.
Regards,
Wes

smokincracker
07-25-2006, 04:56 PM
Ponder this
Rule #13 asks “Was this chicken presented in a way to make it identifiable?”
Perhaps or Perhaps not?

Also you should know this!
You are not the first to use this technique.
You may have taken it a bit extreme as it dose look fried not that that should matter? But remember rule#13

You just forgot to sauce the chicken! And used a bit too much bread……
Don't give up on your technique others are having success with it. Just tweak it a bit and make it look like un-identifiable chicken...

Cracker

Great thread!!!!

cmcadams
07-25-2006, 05:01 PM
I disagree that Rule #13 was broken. Marking is more like cutting a certain notch in your brisket or branding your ribs... not using different ingredients to make your chicken. There's nothing to stop another team from doing the exact same thing, so their chicken would look very similar... Marking it with a big P or something like would not be something you'd expect another team to do.

If I use a sauce that has a different color, I'm not marking... I probably won't score high in appearance, but there's nothing to say it has to look red or it's marking.

smokincracker
07-25-2006, 05:14 PM
[QUOTE=cmcadams]I disagree that Rule #13 was broken. Marking is more like cutting a certain notch in your brisket or branding your ribs... not using different ingredients to make your chicken.


I am not just talking about notching or branding.
Any meat presented in a way to make it identifiable is what it says.

This could be a subject to interpretation for hours.
The point I was trying to make is perhaps if the chicken was less conspicuous it would not have been call out. I use a very similar approach with less dramatic visual effect with varied success. That is if top 5 in bird most of the time is varied.

smokeeater
07-25-2006, 05:52 PM
Guys,
Isn't life about pushing the envelope? Christ! if we didn't "push the envelope" we would never have gotten to the moon. I think what Guy did was very cool and I think its time for the so called Table captains to get there heads out of there asses and wake up. If there is a question about
how it was cooked, go to the team and ask them. This is my own opinion
now so here it goes.... If your at a BBQ comp. what kind of Dips*** would turn in fried chicken. I think the Table captains should know this.
Guy, YOU WAS ROBBED!!!

Sawdustguy
07-25-2006, 07:16 PM
[quote=cmcadams]I disagree that Rule #13 was broken. Marking is more like cutting a certain notch in your brisket or branding your ribs... not using different ingredients to make your chicken.


I am not just talking about notching or branding.
Any meat presented in a way to make it identifiable is what it says.

This could be a subject to interpretation for hours.
The point I was trying to make is perhaps if the chicken was less conspicuous it would not have been call out. I use a very similar approach with less dramatic visual effect with varied success. That is if top 5 in bird most of the time is varied.

Jimmy,

I ain't giving up. I have to find a way to sauce the pieces without making them mushy again. We are working on it. We are gonna try rice flour as not to give it that fried look. I will let ya know what I turn up.

CharlieBeasley
07-25-2006, 07:43 PM
Jimmy If we used the logic you were talking we would have dqed at least 2 of each category at Harpoon. unique color (yellow chicken) gray brisket, soy colored ribs, and a mush for pulled pork. He was robbed and as cooks and judges we need to throw a fit on his behalf!! I am just to new and stupid to know how YET!

Pigs on The Run
07-25-2006, 09:05 PM
When I try to do something this cutting edge we go and talk to the contest reps and ask them is this ok?If they say it is quetstionable then we avoid it. i think flour chicken is not bbq chicken whether the rules agreeor not imho. if you didnt talk to the reps ahead of time you got what you deseved.trying to be different takes risk and it seems like you are having a good time about it.
John

MilitantSquatter
07-25-2006, 10:38 PM
I agree with you on the cutting edge piece of it, but the bigger issue comes from the ract that rules as written are rules and need to be consistent. Would it be fair for Guy and team to go to three different contests, speak to three different contest reps about their planned method and get three different answers 1) OK, 2) No way, 3) I don't know ?

While a risky method to attempt and in my opinion not necessary to pull good scores I don't think that's fair as the rules are currently written. Everyone has a slightly different interpretation as to what real BBQ is, but if it's a KCBS contest and the rules don't specifically call it out, it should be legal, whether as a judge or contest rep or another team you consider it BBQ or not.

I can only hope Guy and team contact KCBS and hope that it gets brought to a rules meeting for further clarification or a change in rules that calls out the use of a batter, breading etc.

Sawdustguy
07-25-2006, 11:15 PM
We have sent email messages to Ed Roith and Donna McClure and have not gotten a response. I had a great attitude about this up til now. Now I feel I am being ignored. Unfortunately this is what I expected.

BrooklynQ
07-26-2006, 12:32 AM
Give them some time Guy. I've never dealt with Donna, by Ed is usually pretty responsive.

WannaBeBBQueen
07-26-2006, 07:19 AM
Hey guys, the chicken looks great, shouldn't have been D'qed for that, they should have asked. I'd keep trying :) Looks delicious!

smokincracker
07-26-2006, 08:55 AM
[quote=smokincracker]

Jimmy,

I ain't giving up. I have to find a way to sauce the pieces without making them mushy again. We are working on it. We are gonna try rice flour as not to give it that fried look. I will let ya know what I turn up.

Guy

Let me know how the rice flour works.

cracker

Pigs on The Run
07-26-2006, 11:22 AM
look this was challanging the rules. It was something unique and different. either way you win. if it got by you look like guiness. if it gets DQed you are a marter and every one picks up your cross. Look if you have a question talk to the contest rep everytime. Let them know that your are following the rules. It is no way I can tell that breaded chicken was fried or smoked by looking at it If incosistency is the problem with the reps atleast you will not get DQed. I know you spent alot of time and effort into this dont waste you time. Use comon sense.. I am not against anyone here but you put this out for comment and well i commented. good luck and be smart.
John

backyardchef
07-26-2006, 11:34 AM
Funny that Guy got DQ'd for the chicken but people used whatever charcoal they wanted for the grilling contest (against the rules) and were not.....

BBQchef33
07-26-2006, 12:07 PM
anwsering a few questions i read back in the thread.

1 - according to Murry(one of the KCBS reps), they were 100% certified this year.

Funny that Guy got DQ'd for the chicken but people used whatever charcoal they wanted for the grilling contest (against the rules) and were not.....

2 - The grilling contest was non sanctioned by any org, and was on the honor system to abide by the rules. Just as there is no one walking around the sanctioned event making sure no one has their propane fueled log lighter turned on in the stick burners to supply heat overnight. If people were cheating, its on their conscience. Guy was not cheating, but (mis)judged by judges. I don't see the correlation.

backyardchef
07-26-2006, 12:15 PM
2 - The grilling contest was non sanctioned by any org, and was on the honor system to abide by the rules. Guy was not cheating, but (mis)judged by judges. I don't see the correlation.

Guy was not cheating-- that was my point. The honor system, obviously, failed. Following the rules didn't seem to be worth it.

I'm sure if anyone saw someone using gas overnight, they would report it if they felt the need.

Sledneck
07-26-2006, 04:37 PM
We have sent email messages to Ed Roith and Donna McClure and have not gotten a response. I had a great attitude about this up til now. Now I feel I am being ignored. Unfortunately this is what I expected.

http://bestsmileys.com/notlistening/2.gif

Sawdustguy
07-27-2006, 09:15 AM
look this was challanging the rules. It was something unique and different. either way you win. if it got by you look like guiness. if it gets DQed you are a marter and every one picks up your cross. Look if you have a question talk to the contest rep everytime. Let them know that your are following the rules. It is no way I can tell that breaded chicken was fried or smoked by looking at it If incosistency is the problem with the reps atleast you will not get DQed. I know you spent alot of time and effort into this dont waste you time. Use comon sense.. I am not against anyone here but you put this out for comment and well i commented. good luck and be smart.
John

You make absolutely no sense. Please clarify yourself. If you are hinting that I should notify the contest reps everytime I do something different that's not the point. My point is that the contest rep should be sure before DQing anyone instead of assuming.

Jeff_in_KC
07-27-2006, 09:23 AM
PotR, I don't see that what Guy did was challenging ANY rules! He farkin' smoked chicken indirect on a grill. Period. The only difference between what he did and what we do was that he added seasoned flour to the mix. BFD. Flour doesn't constitute frying. You need oil/grease for that. I don't recall Guy saying he used oil or grease. Do you?

Pigs on The Run
07-27-2006, 11:16 AM
I apreciate your point of view. i agree with you that the reps acted inccorectly. But you are still DQed. Nothing is ever going to change that.No matter how many people pick up your cross it will not happen.I personally wish i could change it.If your goal is to change the rules, probally next year they will include no breading, I dont know. If i saw chicken with breading on it i would probally alsothink it was fried. sorry my southern roots. If it looks like a duck ect. If you didnt realize you were flirting with the rules, i am sorry. i dont like getting DQed. I will take the extra minute to "understand" the rules more clearly with the Reps.One thing i realize that the reps are not my enemy. They are to help me so get help when needed, the inconvience coulda save youa a top ten which you probally deserved anyway. if the arguement is it is too much inconvience to talk to the rep than to get dqed well good luck. Oh i wish they best of luck . Hope to see ya in a contest in the near future.
John

Jeff_in_KC
07-27-2006, 12:17 PM
This is ridiculous! Right there what you said about if you saw flour on it, you would also think it was fried. At that point, you might want to confirm your thought.

Again, where do you get from the rules that Guy was flirting with them? Didn't flirt. Didn't challenge. He simply added an ingredient to smoked chicken that was different than anyone else. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see one damned place in the KCBS rules where it says flour or ANY ingredient is illegal to use.

kcquer
07-27-2006, 01:05 PM
One thing i realize that the reps are not my enemy.

John, If the reps DQ someone for no reason they are the enemy. The reps incompetence robbed Guy of a chance at a top 10 finish.

An apology and the return of Guy's entry fee is a minimum of a corrective action and the Rep needs to be barred from officiating any contest until he/she knows how to follow procedure.

Smoker
07-27-2006, 02:08 PM
John, If the reps DQ someone for no reason they are the enemy. The reps incompetence robbed Guy of a chance at a top 10 finish.

An apology and the return of Guy's entry fee is a minimum of a corrective action and the Rep needs to be barred from officiating any contest until he/she knows how to follow procedure.


Kc has a point. Also, and VERY importantly, we never even knew about the cooks meeting that they had on Saturday so if there were any questions, we never really had the opportunity. The rep should have had the judges score it as they liked and found out afterwards if the chicken was fried.IMHO

Jeff_in_KC
07-27-2006, 02:58 PM
Agreed, Scott!

Pigs on The Run
07-27-2006, 06:50 PM
Whew. God bless you all. I no desire to get upset any one about BBQ.(thats what the wife is for lol) I do it becuase i love the people. Lord knows i dont want to make people mad who i have never seen. Guys good luck and have fun Stop by at the Royal and say Hi.
John

arlieque
07-27-2006, 09:34 PM
John,

It is no ones point to make someone mad. I understand your point and I think that is great! Point is the reps should have allowed the judging to take place in which they could have ran straight to you and asked about the entry. They didnt do that, did they? You should at the least be given your entry fee back by KCBS and the reps retrained. I had a problem at Guitarbeque...I have sent emails to board members and have received no answer either as of today. Three weeks have gone by. I also sent an email about a judge that needs to be retrained back in April of 06 and have never received any reply about what should have been done. Whats up with that?Answering a email isnt that hard is it? You are what bbq is really about though.......having fun!!!!


Arlie

Kevin
07-27-2006, 10:34 PM
John,

It is no ones point to make someone mad. I understand your point and I think that is great! Point is the reps should have allowed the judging to take place in which they could have ran straight to you and asked about the entry. They didnt do that, did they? You should at the least be given your entry fee back by KCBS and the reps retrained. I had a problem at Guitarbeque...I have sent emails to board members and have received no answer either as of today. Three weeks have gone by. I also sent an email about a judge that needs to be retrained back in April of 06 and have never received any reply about what should have been done. Whats up with that?Answering a email isnt that hard is it? You are what bbq is really about though.......having fun!!!!


Arlie

Point well taken. I don't play yet but this is an interesting thread. The basic point Guy wanted to make was that he was dissed without confirmation of the facts. Kind of like life in general. Barbecue is a philosophy of sorts me thinks.

YankeeBBQ
07-28-2006, 09:05 AM
Point well taken. I don't play yet but this is an interesting thread. The basic point Guy wanted to make was that he was dissed without confirmation of the facts. Kind of like life in general. Barbecue is a philosophy of sorts me thinks.

Here's a hypothetical situation. Please don't anybody take this the wrong way it's simply hypothetical.

Let's say a team did fry their chicken hoping for an advantage over the rest of the teams. Let's say they knew frying was illegal. Now when the rep approaches the team to confirm whether or not their chicken was fried of course the team will simply deny it. How can a team prove they didn't fry their chicken ? How can a rep prove they did ?

Again I'm not trying to infer anything. I believe the original poster of this thread cooked the chicken just like he said and he was mistakingly DQ'd.

Steve

voodoobbqIL
07-28-2006, 09:30 AM
The best thing that they did was take pictures of the process. We all know the old saying and we as a group have judged the outcome from those pictures and so should the rep. But also out of this the lack of response from the sanction body is not making this any better. I hope that the KCBS learns something from this and makes a point for reps to have some sort of formula to deal with a unique situation. The judging teacher we had said something very profound at our class he said "I do not automatically look for the bad things when I am judging / repping, I error on the side of the competitor and if I think something is fishy I fish for the answer. Always judge and rep on the positiveness of the sport, remember you want people to judge you entry based on the good things not the bad"
Sage advice for all of us, I am sorry that this happened and I hope that some learning has come from it.

backyardchef
07-28-2006, 09:56 AM
Steve--

Isn't that the risk at every contest? I've seen on this forum and others people asking questions about possible ways to 'skirt' the rules-- most people acknowledge it's possible, though claim it isn't that likely to happen, at least without being reported to a rep. If someone is in their trailer, who knows what's happening? Unless it is seen and/or reported, how can 'cheating', which Guy did not do, be completely prevented?

Here's a hypothetical situation. Please don't anybody take this the wrong way it's simply hypothetical.

Let's say a team did fry their chicken hoping for an advantage over the rest of the teams. Let's say they knew frying was illegal. Now when the rep approaches the team to confirm whether or not their chicken was fried of course the team will simply deny it. How can a team prove they didn't fry their chicken ? How can a rep prove they did ?

Again I'm not trying to infer anything. I believe the original poster of this thread cooked the chicken just like he said and he was mistakingly DQ'd.

Steve

kcquer
07-28-2006, 10:17 AM
How can a team prove they didn't fry their chicken ?

In this particular case, there was compelling photographic evidence that their chicken was not fried.

BTW-I would think one taste would provide the answer, smoke flavor would be a big clue, as would the lack of excess fat in the coating.

YankeeBBQ
07-28-2006, 10:29 AM
In this particular case, there was compelling photographic evidence that their chicken was not fried.

BTW-I would think one taste would provide the answer, smoke flavor would be a big clue, as would the lack of excess fat in the coating.

Smoke taste wouldn't prove anything. The meat could be smoked before being fried or liquid smoke could be used in the coating. Something that's been fried right has no excess fat or grease. If the team smoked the meat and sprayed it with some butter or pam or something then there may be some excess fat in the coating.

Just saying there is no easy way to prove it one way or the other.

Sawdustguy
07-28-2006, 10:33 AM
Guys,

I just want to thank you all. I am overwhelmed by the support you all gave me. I doubt that the KCBS will ever respond to my emails. I very nicely asked for an explanation but doubt a reply will ever come. The whole purpose of this thread was to expose a flaw in the judging process and hopefully prevent it from ever happening again to anyone.

kcquer
07-28-2006, 11:45 AM
Smoke taste wouldn't prove anything. The meat could be smoked before being fried or liquid smoke could be used in the coating. Something that's been fried right has no excess fat or grease. If the team smoked the meat and sprayed it with some butter or pam or something then there may be some excess fat in the coating.

Just saying there is no easy way to prove it one way or the other.

You don't eat as much Q or fried chicken as I do.

Al Dente
07-30-2006, 09:22 AM
The DQ should never have taken place. The Rep should have confirmed exactly what method was used to cook the chicken. What is stopping anyone from trying a new ingredient, only the threat of a DQ!!!!! What if you decided to wrap your chicken in a banana leaf and then smoke it, it would not appear to be "smoked", instead steamed, so that's an automatic DQ as well. C'mon man, it can't be left up to a "judgement" call, it has to be DETERMINED through investigating what was done. To DQ someone on a whim, "well it looks like it MIGHT be fried" is ridiculous. And where were the Reps who were supposed to be walking around to insure thst everyone was playing by the rules. I wasn't visited at all, nor did I ever see a Rep roaming the site. We're all on the honor system, and if you have to cheat at BBQ you need to get a new arena, and a life!!!! Guy, I feel for ya, that was total BS what happened, and to not be notified at the time makes no sense. You're always trying somehting new and as long as it falls within the rules, who cares. Thinking outsdie of the box should not be punished.

Paola Greg
07-30-2006, 10:08 AM
Guys,

I doubt that the KCBS will ever respond to my emails. I very nicely asked for an explanation but doubt a reply will ever come.
The KCBS may want to put your question in front of the whole board for discussion before sending you an official responce. If that is the case, the board only meets once each month. But it would be nice if they would acknowledge receiving your mail, and let you know when to expect an answer.

Solidkick
07-30-2006, 10:22 AM
The KCBS may want to put your question in front of the whole board for discussion before sending you an official responce. If that is the case, the board only meets once each month. But it would be nice if they would acknowledge receiving your mail, and let you know when to expect an answer.

Greg is right, and my feeling that this is the case.

scottyd
07-30-2006, 10:26 AM
guy in my eyes your are a pioneer and what a great idea, I for one back you in this all the way I tryed this at home this weekend and wow. You my friend should never have been DQ on this. the rep put the wood to you. I do feel your pain.

Pig Headed
07-30-2006, 11:08 AM
Guy,

I spoke to 2 reps this weekend about your situation and they both said that they felt that it was a type of "marking". I tried to explain the whole scenerio and asked why the reps of your comp wouldn't at least speak with you. They still said that DQ was proper. I still agree with you, as a certified judge I would not think of it as marking at all. This could be a benchmark case if you ask me. Hope you hear from KCBS.

racer_81
07-30-2006, 11:20 AM
Guy,

I spoke to 2 reps this weekend about your situation and they both said that they felt that it was a type of "marking". I tried to explain the whole scenerio and asked why the reps of your comp wouldn't at least speak with you. They still said that DQ was proper. I still agree with you, as a certified judge I would not think of it as marking at all. This could be a benchmark case if you ask me. Hope you hear from KCBS.
Marking?

That sounds silly.

Does that mean if everybody used a ton of black pepper in their rub and one entry used white pepper only, thereby making their submission lighter in color than everybody else's, they would be guilty of "marking"?

Or, if all contestants but one used tomato-based glazes and one contestant used a mayo-based glaze, thereby making his submission lighter in color than the others, then that's "marking" too?

Or - do they consider that whichever submission doesn't look like all the others is "marked"?

MilitantSquatter
07-30-2006, 11:37 AM
I'm with Racer on the marking point... he's dead on and it just goes to show that the rules need to be re-examined and re-defined.

The rules as written in the KCBS 2006 rule book are extremely vague as to what marking exactly is... Now, when I took the judges class, I recall being instructed of one or two examples of "marking" (ex. using a jello mold to form the pulled pork etc). Sure, shaping your pulled pork in the form of a fish could be considered "marked", but to back to Racers point, almost anything could then be classified as marking if you go based on ingredients etc, layout etc as long as someone knows what to look for. Who is to say putting 4 pc. of burnt ends in one corner is any less of "marking" as laying the pulled pork neatly like a triangle or a heart. I still can't classify what Guy and team did as marking.

To the Contest Reps defense, I am sure most of them when getting put on the spot with a situation out of the norm, may not have ample time to put things in perspective and determine the best course of action as to how to address with a team so as not to be surprised.

We can only be hopeful that the KBCS will discuss at their next meeting, but a courtesy response just acknowledging that they are in receipt of a cook's issue should become standard protocol.

arlieque
07-30-2006, 05:49 PM
Good luck hearing from KCBS.....
I had a issue at Guitarbeque this year and havent heard from them yet. Since 3 emails and I also had a problem with a judge and asked that he be banded till he takes another class. Got an email stating the email went to Ed Roith and he would get back to me. That was in April. What a joke. Seems the west coast is atarting to explore IBCA sanctioning for some reason?

NotleyQue
10-13-2007, 05:35 PM
dont agree with this at all. How is it "identifiable" because he did something different. If 1 team uses "white sauce" on their chicken, and every other team uses the same old "red" sauce does "white sauce" team get the DQ because of Rule 13.

No questions were asked, therfore the reps were wrong, and the guy got the shaft.


Ponder this
Rule #13 asks “Was this chicken presented in a way to make it identifiable?”
Perhaps or Perhaps not?

Also you should know this!
You are not the first to use this technique.
You may have taken it a bit extreme as it dose look fried not that that should matter? But remember rule#13

You just forgot to sauce the chicken! And used a bit too much bread……
Don't give up on your technique others are having success with it. Just tweak it a bit and make it look like un-identifiable chicken...

Cracker

Great thread!!!!

NotleyQue
10-13-2007, 05:49 PM
If a person cant tell the difference between chicken that was fried, or breaded and cooked in a BBQ, then that person really has no business judging any sort of food related contest. I am shocked that these judges couldnt tell.
Here's a hypothetical situation. Please don't anybody take this the wrong way it's simply hypothetical.

Let's say a team did fry their chicken hoping for an advantage over the rest of the teams. Let's say they knew frying was illegal. Now when the rep approaches the team to confirm whether or not their chicken was fried of course the team will simply deny it. How can a team prove they didn't fry their chicken ? How can a rep prove they did ?

Again I'm not trying to infer anything. I believe the original poster of this thread cooked the chicken just like he said and he was mistakingly DQ'd.

Steve

Dale P
10-13-2007, 06:06 PM
Im inspired. Chicken and dumplings is going to be my next turn in.

just kidding!

Guy, you threw them a curve ball and they missed. That is a shame.

MilitantSquatter
10-13-2007, 06:28 PM
If a person cant tell the difference between chicken that was fried, or breaded and cooked in a BBQ, then that person really has no business judging any sort of food related contest. I am shocked that these judges couldnt tell.

Take a look at the pic - can you tell ???

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=462475&postcount=7

The good news is, this issue has been resolved by KCBS, Sawdustguy and Mrs. Sawdust received hearfelt apologies from the contest reps and they have moved on to new techniques for their chicken...

nthole
10-13-2007, 09:24 PM
By the way, we used this method for our last contest in wings and had no dq issues or questions.

Course, didn't finish in the top 10 anyway...so it probably didn't matter!

NotleyQue
10-14-2007, 12:34 AM
I cant tell by that picture, but I sure could tell the second I bit into a piece.


Take a look at the pic - can you tell ???

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=462475&postcount=7

The good news is, this issue has been resolved by KCBS, Sawdustguy and Mrs. Sawdust received hearfelt apologies from the contest reps and they have moved on to new techniques for their chicken...

Sawdustguy
10-14-2007, 04:01 PM
I cant tell by that picture, but I sure could tell the second I bit into a piece.

It sure fooled the judges. After tasting they swore we fried it. We talked to a judge who tried it and he said it was too moist not to be fried although he could detect no oil. We tried the recipe and technique at home once using the same spices as KFC and it was tuff to tell the difference. If we injected it, you could never tell the difference.

Sledneck
10-14-2007, 04:03 PM
i think you need to make a batch next weekend at sayville so we can all judge it:biggrin:

Sawdustguy
10-14-2007, 04:12 PM
We absolutely will!

Yakfishingfool
10-14-2007, 04:17 PM
Yeah!!!! What sled said!!! Scott

BBQ_Mayor
10-15-2007, 10:23 AM
I judged at Mason City, Iowa this year and I got an entry that looked just like that. It looked like it had been fried. It was not disqualified like yours. However, it did not score very well because it wasn't very good all together.
It was a bit off putting to see a "fried" looking entry but I believe it was scored fairly at our table.
I don't believe an entry should be disqualified base on a cooking processes without checking with the cook first.

Sorry about your DQ.

GordonsBackyardBBQ
10-15-2007, 10:40 AM
Sounds like the Rep didnt follow the rules. Sorry to hear that.

Chris Nickelson
10-16-2007, 09:59 AM
Sorry to hear about the turn of events.

My thoughts:
If YOU liked the chicken, Screw the judges!
Eat and be happy!

ique
10-16-2007, 10:07 AM
Push the limits of the rules and you increase your risks of being DQ'd. We have been DQ'd many times in NEBS grilling contest for pushing the edge of the rules. I agree that the entry is legal but do you really want to be in the position of having a reps judgment call determine the success of your weekend?

DawgPhan
10-19-2007, 01:33 PM
Sorry about your DQ...seems like I hear about more DQs for chicken then anything else..

I have a question about your recipe. You mention the eggs cracked in a bowl, but then dont mention what you do with it. I was looking to make this recipe this weekend to try it out...Doubt that I will be using it in a competition, but love any new chicken recipes I can get my hands on.

So is it egg>flour or is it flour>egg>flour or what. i noticed 3 bowls in the picture with your dredging...looks like (left to right) seasoned flour > flour > eggs

I understand if you dont want to tell the whole recipe, but I sure did what to try it...it looks really good..I was hoping to bring something new to the tailgate at the WLOCP next weekend..

thanks.

Sawdustguy
10-19-2007, 01:48 PM
Sorry about your DQ...seems like I hear about more DQs for chicken then anything else..

I have a question about your recipe. You mention the eggs cracked in a bowl, but then dont mention what you do with it. I was looking to make this recipe this weekend to try it out...Doubt that I will be using it in a competition, but love any new chicken recipes I can get my hands on.

So is it egg>flour or is it flour>egg>flour or what. i noticed 3 bowls in the picture with your dredging...looks like (left to right) seasoned flour > flour > eggs

I understand if you dont want to tell the whole recipe, but I sure did what to try it...it looks really good..I was hoping to bring something new to the tailgate at the WLOCP next weekend..

thanks.


No problem. Mix your seasoning in with your flour. Break a few eggs in a bowl and mix as you if you were making scrambled eggs. Dip your chicken into the egg and dredge in the flour. Into the smoker or onto the grill they go.

PS: We also inject the chicken with a secret buttery concoction that I can not divulge. This method works great for taste and crisp skin.

smoke-n-my-i's
10-19-2007, 03:09 PM
First off, sorry for the DQ for doing what you do...... It looks like they were taken off guard....


I challenge any official from KCBS to read this thread beginning to end and provide a valid explanition.

There is no excuse for a DQ based on speculation. It's a credible as looking at a rib and saying this looks like it came from a grocery store deli, it's dq'd.

This is where I feel there is not enough training on the do's and don'ts for the judging.... take a class and judge.... no standards as I see it.


We have sent email messages to Ed Roith and Donna McClure and have not gotten a response. I had a great attitude about this up til now. Now I feel I am being ignored. Unfortunately this is what I expected.


Well, I see you at least did hear back from them. I am still waiting for an answer to a couple of questions I emailed to 6 of them at KCBS. Not a single one has enough nerve or guts to answer a single question. It has been almost 8 months now. I even called 3 months ago to see why. Amy answered the phone and she said she would get back to me with an answer...... I am still waiting.

Since they can not answer me a couple of simple questions, or even give me the courtesy of even a reply of any kind, I have not nor will not renew my membership in an organization that is that rude. Nor can I recommend them to anyone.

I sure hope they get their act together soon.

They have too many "grey" areas that need help. It looks like they are trying to grow too big too fast and don't know how to handle it or run it properly.

Sorry for ranting....

Bill

Sawdustguy
10-19-2007, 03:17 PM
Bill,

I would never have gotten a reply if it were not for Jim Minion. He pushed the issue for me, otherwise it would have been swept under the table.

smoke-n-my-i's
10-19-2007, 03:25 PM
Bill,

I would never have gotten a reply if it were not for Jim Minion. He pushed the issue for me, otherwise it would have been swept under the table.


I can believe that.... I think that they think if they just ignore the situation, it will go away..... I personally think they are making a lot of problems for themselves by not addressing them quickly and listening to their members.

Not a problem though. It is only a few bucks out of my pocket that I am now keeping. Will I compete in another event.....

http://www.ncagr.com/markets/facilities/markets/lumberton/carolinasmokin/index.htm


YES ! ! ! Nothing says I have to be a member to compete....

DawgPhan
10-19-2007, 06:04 PM
No problem. Mix your seasoning in with your flour. Break a few eggs in a bowl and mix as you if you were making scrambled eggs. Dip your chicken into the egg and dredge in the flour. Into the smoker or onto the grill they go.

PS: We also inject the chicken with a secret buttery concoction that I can not divulge. This method works great for taste and crisp skin.


Thanks I am certainly looking forward to making this chicken this weekend. Also I certainly didnt want you to give up anything that is a team secret. thanks for sharing.

smoke-n-my-i's
10-20-2007, 07:02 AM
No problem. Mix your seasoning in with your flour. Break a few eggs in a bowl and mix as you if you were making scrambled eggs. Dip your chicken into the egg and dredge in the flour. Into the smoker or onto the grill they go.

PS: We also inject the chicken with a secret buttery concoction that I can not divulge. This method works great for taste and crisp skin.


Sawdust, that sounds a lot like a recipe I use here at home. I use a mustard slather on my chicken before I dredge it. I also have a marinade I let my chicken sit in overnight before cooking. It does look so much like fried, that I am scared to try it at a comp. Everyone that tries it loves it, but, do I try it at a comp? ? ? ? ? ? Maybe one day I will get brave, but I think I will throw it passed the rep first....

Bill

DawgPhan
10-22-2007, 01:04 PM
Made this recipe twice this weekend. The first time was great...came out just like fried chicken and everyone was impressed...the second time it didnt really come out that great, but I think that it could have used a little longer on the grill...it still tasted fine, but the skin and crispyness wasnt there like it was on saturday night..still good though...I was hoping for something new to bring to the tailgate, but I dont think that I am quite ready for primetime with this recipe.

thanks for the recipe.

Sawdustguy
10-23-2007, 12:13 AM
Dawg, your welcome. It took a couple times to get it right so don't give up on it.

Bill, definitely tell the Reps! I don't want anyone to get DQ'ed on this. If excuted right, it is some of the best chicken you can make. Sounds like you have your recipe down pat Bill. Best of luck Bill.

We used the recipe this weekend and we sauced it so it would look like BBQ. It tasted good and it took 11th but the sauce really took away the real taste of the chicken which I think is better. It got good grades for texture.