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View Full Version : KCBS Table of Death and Angels - Idea


Rich Parker
06-19-2014, 01:11 PM
So I have been thinking about this KCBS Table of Death and Table of Angels and have an idea I am thinking about sending to the board of directors but would like your input. I look forward to reading your comments.

I have heard on numerous occasions on how the “Table of Death” (TOD) and “Table of Angels” (TOA) either helped me or hurt me and 99% of the time it is how the TOD hurt them. The TOD and TOA are basically created by pure circumstance of where judges sit after the judges meeting. This purely by chance circumstance can be greatly reduced or eliminated by placing judges at the appropriate table based on the averages of the other judges at the event.

Example of a 12 team event this situation could occur with table #1 having an average of 194 and #2 an average of 156. No need to drop the lowest when calculating averages. In this extreme example, you could have a TOD and TOA at the same event.

Table #1 average 194 - Table #2 average 156
Judge #1 = avg 32 - Judge #7 = avg 27
Judge #2 = avg 30 - Judge #8 = avg 28
Judge #3 = avg 33 - Judge #9 = avg 26
Judge #4 = avg 32 - Judge #10 = avg 23
Judge #5 = avg 34 - Judge #11 = avg 25
Judge #6 = avg 33 - Judge #12 = avg 27

If the SCORE program was storing a judge’s individual or average score based on the member number, a screen could be developed that takes in a list of member id numbers supplied by the organizer and SCORE could be setup to take these numbers and calculate the average scores among the judges present and can put them at the appropriate table based on the average score from past events.

Example after adding the 12 member ids in to SCORE it would even out the average to table #1 having an average score of 176 and #2 an average score of 174 which would most likely eliminate the TOD and TOA.

Table #1 average 176 - Table #2 average 174
Judge #1 = avg 32 - Judge #5 = avg 34
Judge #2 = avg 30 - Judge #10 = avg 23
Judge #4 = avg 32 - Judge #3 = avg 33
Judge #8 = avg 28 - Judge #11 = avg 25
Judge #7 = avg 27 - Judge #6 = avg 33
Judge #12 = avg 27 - Judge #9 = avg 26

Some exceptions:
1. Non CBJ can be given a default average and SCORE could make sure they are distributed evenly to the different tables.
2. CBJ judging their first event (or could easily make it first three events) get a default score.

Lake Dogs
06-19-2014, 01:32 PM
This is a very good idea and I hope it's something they're seriously considering implementing down the line.

Otherwise, they should probably do what other sanctioning bodies do, and that is that you (as a judge) never sit at the same table twice, and not with the same people... It doesn't statistically account and balance like the approach above does, but it does mix things up so that no 1 table is always high or low...

Podge
06-19-2014, 01:43 PM
This is a very good idea and I hope it's something they're seriously considering implementing down the line.

Otherwise, they should probably do what other sanctioning bodies do, and that is that you (as a judge) never sit at the same table twice, and not with the same people... It doesn't statistically account and balance like the approach above does, but it does mix things up so that no 1 table is always high or low...

Judges Never sit at the same table twice. I like it. It can be mathematically programmed easy to do so. A judge gets a sheet, he/she sits at tables #1, then #2, then #3 then #4. Reps don't even have to mess with it. Then, My entry then always hits Table #1... It will make alternate #'s easy to do too.. Moonswiners #24 is now "165 table #1"... No need to judge tables and entries that way.. judges juggle themselves.

Garrett
06-19-2014, 01:49 PM
Now we're on to something.

Lake Dogs
06-19-2014, 02:05 PM
MiM did this, MBN does this, GBA does this...

Mind you, it's not perfect either. You can still end up with TOD's and TOA's, but is REALLY unlikely to happen more than occasionally here or there...

cpw
06-19-2014, 02:08 PM
So I have been thinking about this KCBS Table of Death and Table of Angels and have an idea I am thinking about sending to the board of directors but would like your input. I look forward to reading your comments.

I have heard on numerous occasions on how the “Table of Death” (TOD) and “Table of Angels” (TOA) either helped me or hurt me and 99% of the time it is how the TOD hurt them. The TOD and TOA are basically created by pure circumstance of where judges sit after the judges meeting. This purely by chance circumstance can be greatly reduced or eliminated by placing judges at the appropriate table based on the averages of the other judges at the event.

Example of a 12 team event this situation could occur with table #1 having an average of 194 and #2 an average of 156. No need to drop the lowest when calculating averages. In this extreme example, you could have a TOD and TOA at the same event.

Table #1 average 194 - Table #2 average 156
Judge #1 = avg 32 - Judge #7 = avg 27
Judge #2 = avg 30 - Judge #8 = avg 28
Judge #3 = avg 33 - Judge #9 = avg 26
Judge #4 = avg 32 - Judge #10 = avg 23
Judge #5 = avg 34 - Judge #11 = avg 25
Judge #6 = avg 33 - Judge #12 = avg 27

If the SCORE program was storing a judge’s individual or average score based on the member number, a screen could be developed that takes in a list of member id numbers supplied by the organizer and SCORE could be setup to take these numbers and calculate the average scores among the judges present and can put them at the appropriate table based on the average score from past events.

Example after adding the 12 member ids in to SCORE it would even out the average to table #1 having an average score of 176 and #2 an average score of 174 which would most likely eliminate the TOD and TOA.

Table #1 average 176 - Table #2 average 174
Judge #1 = avg 32 - Judge #5 = avg 34
Judge #2 = avg 30 - Judge #10 = avg 23
Judge #4 = avg 32 - Judge #3 = avg 33
Judge #8 = avg 28 - Judge #11 = avg 25
Judge #7 = avg 27 - Judge #6 = avg 33
Judge #12 = avg 27 - Judge #9 = avg 26

Some exceptions:
1. Non CBJ can be given a default average and SCORE could make sure they are distributed evenly to the different tables.
2. CBJ judging their first event (or could easily make it first three events) get a default score.

I'm all for it. I would imagine that every competitor out there would support it as well.

drbbq
06-19-2014, 02:34 PM
I like the original idea a lot but I think the judges should be ranked on how close they are when compared to the other judges at their table in previous contests instead of average score. It's a little more complicated but surely a program could do it.

New Pal Frank
06-19-2014, 02:35 PM
If threre are Reps or Board members out there, please correct me if I am wrong.
It is my understanding that if an entry is DQ'd at the table, and given all 1's, it figures into the judges average score for that event.
Aside from that, it sounds good. KCBScore should be able to sort the judges as they check in.

Candy Sue
06-19-2014, 02:51 PM
That is true above. Board has had discussions regarding cutting DQ out of averaging. A new release of KCBScore is eminent to fix some stuff. Hopefully this can be put in next revision, if it passes the board. Also "handicapping" judges has been discussed as well, but the general opinion is that more data is needed. Next month is the first anniversary of KCBScore!

Rich Parker
06-19-2014, 03:55 PM
That is true above. Board has had discussions regarding cutting DQ out of averaging. A new release of KCBScore is eminent to fix some stuff. Hopefully this can be put in next revision, if it passes the board. Also "handicapping" judges has been discussed as well, but the general opinion is that more data is needed. Next month is the first anniversary of KCBScore!

I submitted it to the BoD along with a formatted document. Thanks for the comment.

DawgPhan
06-19-2014, 04:18 PM
I like the original idea a lot but I think the judges should be ranked on how close they are when compared to the other judges at their table in previous contests instead of average score. It's a little more complicated but surely a program could do it.


Yeah, you need to be a little better than just using averages.

There is no context to an average.

And this is still just trying to mitigate the damage done by judges that are not judging according to the current KCBS standards. Both high and low scoring.

Kave Dweller
06-19-2014, 04:24 PM
I like the original idea a lot but I think the judges should be ranked on how close they are when compared to the other judges at their table in previous contests instead of average score. It's a little more complicated but surely a program could do it.

Or you could just say you need to have judged 10 comps to have a "weighted" average. Less then 10 comps you're working on an average like the rest of the newbie's?

rob g
06-19-2014, 05:44 PM
And this is still just trying to mitigate the damage done by judges that are not judging according to the current KCBS standards. Both high and low scoring.

Having recently taken the KCBS judging course there don't seem to be any hard and fast "standards". They are very reluctant to tell you what constitutes good BBQ but leave it up to you to make your own decision. Having recently sat through another CSBBQA judging course, as an administrator, it seems there is a lot more that can be done to show and explain what good BBQ is and likewise what bad BBQ is. While taste is a very personal decision a lot more can be taught about texture/tenderness and appearance. Just saying a box looks good doesn't mean a lot. Explaining symmetry, even saucing etc. would go a long way to giving judges a better understanding of what to look for. I'm sure the judging classes also vary depending on who the instructor is.

Rich Parker
06-19-2014, 06:22 PM
Yeah, you need to be a little better than just using averages.

There is no context to an average.

And this is still just trying to mitigate the damage done by judges that are not judging according to the current KCBS standards. Both high and low scoring.

This idea came to mind because of all the talk about judges not judging up to a standard. We can't force someone to think a box looks like a 9 or tastes like a 9 as that is going to be different on anyone including you and I. The only criteria a judge can be trained on is tenderness and that is because there are examples such as biting a rib in the middle and not falling completely apart, pushing the pork to the roof of your mouth and seeing if it sticks, or pulling a slice of brisket apart to see how tender it is.

We have to move past thinking we can teach people on taste and appearance before we can find a solution.

DawgPhan
06-19-2014, 06:41 PM
This idea came to mind because of all the talk about judges not judging up to a standard. We can't force someone to think a box looks like a 9 or tastes like a 9 as that is going to be different on anyone including you and I. The only criteria a judge can be trained on is tenderness and that is because there are examples such as biting a rib in the middle and not falling completely apart, pushing the pork to the roof of your mouth and seeing if it sticks, or pulling a slice of brisket apart to see how tender it is.

We have to move past thinking we can teach people on taste and appearance before we can find a solution.


You can have a standard for taste and appearance and judge towards that standard. KCBS doesnt, but that doesnt mean you can't and it doesnt have to limit the creativity of a cook.

Just like tenderness can mean different things to different people and is judged differently in different sanctioning bodies because they set different standards.

A KCBS 9 in tenderness is not an MBN 9 in tenderness for ribs because the standards are set differently.

Rich Parker
06-19-2014, 07:10 PM
You can have a standard for taste and appearance and judge towards that standard. KCBS doesnt, but that doesnt mean you can't and it doesnt have to limit the creativity of a cook.

Just like tenderness can mean different things to different people and is judged differently in different sanctioning bodies because they set different standards.

A KCBS 9 in tenderness is not an MBN 9 in tenderness for ribs because the standards are set differently.

Does other sanctioning bodies have standards for taste? I have never heard such a thing and can't see how what I think is a 9 can match what someone else will think as a 9 every time.

Smoke'n Ice
06-19-2014, 07:10 PM
As long as the reps and BOD (same difference) do not have to do any extra work or think, then it would work. If the reps were required to supervise the movement then the Clint Eastwood movie "Heart Break Ridge" and the 'Cluster F%$3' line comes to mind. Shoot, they are even against the comment cards because it would require extra work.

TooSaucedToPork
06-19-2014, 08:23 PM
A few things need to be done. The sorting judges according to average is one that has been talked about since KCBS score came out.

The next, and biggest thing is mandatory judge testing. Every year judges have to log in and take a test with randomly generated questions. There should also be a portion that reviews the basic judgment rules.

Pass...you are allowed to judge for a year...until the next test
Fail and you are taken to a continuing education course.Complete it Then you can take the test again.

You want across the board fairness and improved scores...focus on a part of the KCBS Mission Statement...EDUCATION.

Burnt at Both Endz
06-19-2014, 08:36 PM
Maybe I'm over thinking this averaging stuff....But it seems to me that judges that set at a table and get 3 or 4 top cooks is gonna end up with a higher average then those that judge a small town community comp. Not sure they are better or worse judges, just the luck of the entries per say.

Rich Parker
06-19-2014, 09:47 PM
Maybe I'm over thinking this averaging stuff....But it seems to me that judges that set at a table and get 3 or 4 top cooks is gonna end up with a higher average then those that judge a small town community comp. Not sure they are better or worse judges, just the luck of the entries per say.

The judges average would be over all 4 entries at multiple contests such as 3 which then would even out if they got all good or all bad entries. I have talked to multiple judges who say the newer judges score lower so the BoD could put average of 3 events so the newer judges with less than 3 events would get a default average set by BoD when seating the judge. No system is perfect just need to limit the chance or risk of a TOA or the dreaded TOD.

ModelMaker
06-20-2014, 08:05 AM
No,no,no, you all are thinking backwards about this. What KCBS needs to do is whoever is leading in points, make all cooks use the same smoker and get their meat from the same source and use the same rubs and sauces and cook identically as the current winner. Then everybody can have 720's and instead of those gawdy trophies everybody gets a ribbon of participation like grade school t-ball.

Funny we don't see current point leaders complainig about judge placement....
Ed

Untraceable
06-20-2014, 08:08 AM
I'd leave it alone. This is just a can of worms score opened. Unless we want every entry to score between 168 and 172.

cpw
06-20-2014, 08:23 AM
No,no,no, you all are thinking backwards about this. What KCBS needs to do is whoever is leading in points, make all cooks use the same smoker and get their meat from the same source and use the same rubs and sauces and cook identically as the current winner. Then everybody can have 720's and instead of those gawdy trophies everybody gets a ribbon of participation like grade school t-ball.

Funny we don't see current point leaders complainig about judge placement....
Ed

Tim from True Bud suggested this exact thing last year on an interview with the BBQ central show.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-20-2014, 08:39 AM
A few things need to be done. The sorting judges according to average is one that has been talked about since KCBS score came out.

The next, and biggest thing is mandatory judge testing. Every year judges have to log in and take a test with randomly generated questions. There should also be a portion that reviews the basic judgment rules.

Pass...you are allowed to judge for a year...until the next test
Fail and you are taken to a continuing education course.Complete it Then you can take the test again.

You want across the board fairness and improved scores...focus on a part of the KCBS Mission Statement...EDUCATION.

I must say I kind of like this line of thought. I actually had a CBJ come up to me at a contest last year and say " it is a shame your not ALLOWED to turn in boneless and skinless breasts, I think they could do well". I then explained the chicken rules to them as they put there hand over their name badge.

DawgPhan
06-20-2014, 08:53 AM
Does other sanctioning bodies have standards for taste? I have never heard such a thing and can't see how what I think is a 9 can match what someone else will think as a 9 every time.


KCBS is the gold standard for competition BBQ. They should be doing things that other sanctioning bodies dont or cant do.

Why would the standard be to get it 100% right 100% of the time? I am sure that if KCBS provided ANY guidance what so ever on taste it would tighten up taste scores. Right now they basically tell everyone to scoring according to their own personal scale.

Then cooks complain about it.

ModelMaker
06-20-2014, 09:09 AM
Tim from True Bud suggested this exact thing last year on an interview with the BBQ central show.

Jeez, I knew somebody would come up with a name, but I think y'all get the point...
Ed

Funtimebbq
06-20-2014, 09:30 AM
As long as the reps and BOD (same difference) do not have to do any extra work or think, then it would work. If the reps were required to supervise the movement then the Clint Eastwood movie "Heart Break Ridge" and the 'Cluster F%$3' line comes to mind. Shoot, they are even against the comment cards because it would require extra work.

I brought up the idea of sorting judges by their average score to a new rep and the response I received was "that's too much work". While I don't agree with that attitude, it is the organizer's duties to recruit judges. Therefore, if organizers could submit a list of judges membership numbers to KCBS, say a week before their contest (after a final commitment from the judges), the judges' average scores could then be calculated and a seating chart sent back to the organizer. The chart could be posted and judges could seat themselves without the Reps. having to lift a finger. No-shows would still need to be replaced but standby judges would only change the table averages slightly.

Jorge
06-20-2014, 09:36 AM
For those that want to focus on using the arithmetic mean, I'd strongly urge you to work on tie breaking procedures beyond what's currently in place.

TooSaucedToPork
06-20-2014, 09:49 AM
So we cater to the top 1% of teams, and leave the rest to be fodder to pay for the top 1%...great idea.

KCBS has problems, as does every organization everywhere. Now the question is leave it alone and go about business as usual, and ignore that TOD's and TOA's exist. Ignore that there are a multitude of judges that are judging our food with no knowledge of the rules, and judging on their own criteria vs criteria set by KCBS.

OR...

Be proactive and ensure that rules are followed, judges are the best trained, and judging in the "Premier BBQ Organization" is absolutely 100% fair for 100% of entrants.

Personally, I hate the first...

peterz
06-20-2014, 10:26 AM
We should also take away judges high fees for judging and stop reimbursements for travel and hotels. Also stop paying them for taking time away from they families just to judge your BBQ.
Oh wait, that's not why they are doing it.............they are volunteers ! How about show a little respect and appreciation and STOP pooping on them !!!!!!!!

DawgPhan
06-20-2014, 10:28 AM
We should also take away judges high fees for judging and stop reimbursements for travel and hotels. Also stop paying them for taking time away from they families just to judge your BBQ.
Oh wait, that's not why they are doing it.............they are volunteers ! How about show a little respect and appreciation and STOP pooping on them !!!!!!!!


can't roll eyes hard enough

Jorge
06-20-2014, 10:31 AM
We should also take away judges high fees for judging and stop reimbursements for travel and hotels. Also stop paying them for taking time away from they families just to judge your BBQ.
Oh wait, that's not why they are doing it.............they are volunteers ! How about show a little respect and appreciation and STOP pooping on them !!!!!!!!

It's not like anybody was making fun of their coolers.

ModelMaker
06-20-2014, 10:47 AM
So we cater to the top 1% of teams, and leave the rest to be fodder to pay for the top 1%...great idea.

KCBS has problems, as does every organization everywhere. Now the question is leave it alone and go about business as usual, and ignore that TOD's and TOA's exist. Ignore that there are a multitude of judges that are judging our food with no knowledge of the rules, and judging on their own criteria vs criteria set by KCBS.

OR...

Be proactive and ensure that rules are followed, judges are the best trained, and judging in the "Premier BBQ Organization" is absolutely 100% fair for 100% of entrants.

Personally, I hate the first...



My point was we have to stop wanting all judges to score equally (the same), it ain't in the nature of the beast, nor should we want all judges to score alike. There is no way to have judges see presentation the same, there is no way to have judges taste buds be the same, there is no way to have each judge determine the same thoughts on tenderness exactly.

All we can expect from a judge is to follow and practice the rules and procedures taught be the governing body of your BBQ organization.

I see in the June KCBS quick notes the CBJ Committee has a continuing education program nearly ready for release that covers rules and current procedures in an attempt to bring all judges to the same page.
Also,the BOD is looking in to how to use KCBScore to produce a report for judges that would allow them to see how they scored VS the rest of the table similar to cooks reports.

I don't really see KCBS sitting on their thumbs, the concern is obvious but it's a big deal to do things right and it's natural to think things through and proceed cautiously.
Ed

cpw
06-20-2014, 11:06 AM
My point was we have to stop wanting all judges to score equally (the same), it ain't in the nature of the beast, nor should we want all judges to score alike. There is no way to have judges see presentation the same, there is no way to have judges taste buds be the same, there is no way to have each judge determine the same thoughts on tenderness exactly.

All we can expect from a judge is to follow and practice the rules and procedures taught be the governing body of your BBQ organization.



That's the beauty of what Rich is proposing...the judges don't necessarily have to change the way they are judging, they just don't get lumped together with the judges that score similarly.

peterz
06-20-2014, 11:07 AM
My point was we have to stop wanting all judges to score equally (the same), it ain't in the nature of the beast, nor should we want all judges to score alike. There is no way to have judges see presentation the same, there is no way to have judges taste buds be the same, there is no way to have each judge determine the same thoughts on tenderness exactly.

All we can expect from a judge is to follow and practice the rules and procedures taught be the governing body of your BBQ organization.

I see in the June KCBS quick notes the CBJ Committee has a continuing education program nearly ready for release that covers rules and current procedures in an attempt to bring all judges to the same page.
Also,the BOD is looking in to how to use KCBScore to produce a report for judges that would allow them to see how they scored VS the rest of the table similar to cooks reports.

I don't really see KCBS sitting on their thumbs, the concern is obvious but it's a big deal to do things right and it's natural to think things through and proceed cautiously.
Ed

OK, now this is some GREAT info. Thank you.

TooSaucedToPork
06-20-2014, 12:16 PM
We should also take away judges high fees for judging and stop reimbursements for travel and hotels. Also stop paying them for taking time away from they families just to judge your BBQ.
Oh wait, that's not why they are doing it.............they are volunteers ! How about show a little respect and appreciation and STOP pooping on them !!!!!!!!

Judges have the privilege of eating BBQ that costs hundreds of dollars to make. If you were to just count entry fees, labor (let's say $10 an hour for prep, cleanup and cooking), supplies, and meat; each piece of meat a judge tastes costs about $28. So each judge eats about $560 worth of BBQ from teams. (5 boxes in 4 categories)

Now do restaurant math...multiply cost by 3
If you use this, each of the six pieces of meat in the box would sell for $84.

The judges meal in a Brick and Mortar, using proper competitve math would be $1680...

We cooks are held accountable by our scores...the judges should be held accountable by proving they have the knowledge to accurately judge that food.

rob g
06-20-2014, 01:56 PM
Ignore that there are a multitude of judges that are judging our food with no knowledge of the rules, and judging on their own criteria vs criteria set by KCBS.


The KCBS rules have nothing to do with the judging scores given unless a team is being DQ'd for some reason. I have yet to see any criteria set by the KCBS for judging. The course I was given was very vague as to what standards to judge against. It was very much left to the individual.

It appears to me the TOD may be giving the more realistic scores. If everybody is getting 8's & 9's then it doesn't leave any room for the truly excellent entries to shine and move above their peers.

TooSaucedToPork
06-20-2014, 02:28 PM
The KCBS rules have nothing to do with the judging scores given unless a team is being DQ'd for some reason. I have yet to see any criteria set by the KCBS for judging. The course I was given was very vague as to what standards to judge against. It was very much left to the individual.

It appears to me the TOD may be giving the more realistic scores. If everybody is getting 8's & 9's then it doesn't leave any room for the truly excellent entries to shine and move above their peers.

Go up to a table of judges, have them each tell you the official rules for chicken. See who gets it 100%

rob g
06-20-2014, 02:43 PM
Per the KCBS rules Version 12.12.2013 there are no real rules for chicken. It explains that chicken, pork and brisket can be chopped, sliced diced or pulled. While it may be generally understood that chicken should be judged as it comes in (skin or no skin) there is nothing defining that.

TooSaucedToPork
06-20-2014, 05:33 PM
Per the KCBS rules Version 12.12.2013 there are no real rules for chicken. It explains that chicken, pork and brisket can be chopped, sliced diced or pulled. While it may be generally understood that chicken should be judged as it comes in (skin or no skin) there is nothing defining that.


You sure about that?

How bout (directly from the judges manual)

If you do not eat chicken skin, at least taste it, if presented that way, and then discreetly discard. Continue to judge the chicken.

Smoked meat, including chicken may be pink, and not be raw. Chicken is done if the juices run clear. Under cooked chicken will not pull apart easily. If you suspect chicken is raw, place your napkin/paper towel against the meat. If it comes away pink, it is not fully cooked. You are not required to sample. Quietly bring to the attention of the Table Captain.


For KCBS, this is defined as Chicken or Cornish Hen. It can be prepared for a contest whole, half or any combination of the chicken or Cornish Hen as the cook chooses.

Rich Parker
06-20-2014, 07:15 PM
A few things need to be done. The sorting judges according to average is one that has been talked about since KCBS score came out.

The next, and biggest thing is mandatory judge testing. Every year judges have to log in and take a test with randomly generated questions. There should also be a portion that reviews the basic judgment rules.

Pass...you are allowed to judge for a year...until the next test
Fail and you are taken to a continuing education course.Complete it Then you can take the test again.

You want across the board fairness and improved scores...focus on a part of the KCBS Mission Statement...EDUCATION.

How does judges training stop TOD or TOA scenario? You can't train someone to taste a 9 or see a 9.

TooSaucedToPork
06-20-2014, 07:30 PM
You get everyone on the same system...ie start from 6, start from 9; make sure they know all the rules, all the definitions.

You start with education. Once that happens, then you go to other problems. You eliminate the chance for mistakes, and then you are able to concentrate on outliers.

BBQJudge
06-20-2014, 07:53 PM
Seems KCBS doesn't require cooks to pass a test on what a teams submits as acceptable BBQ. Maybe they need to average the cooks past contests and assign to tables accordingly.

DUBBAGA
06-20-2014, 08:07 PM
Seems KCBS doesn't require cooks to pass a test on what a teams submits as acceptable BBQ. Maybe they need to average the cooks past contests and assign to tables accordingly.

I've been staring at this comment for 10min and have no clue where to begin... :tape:

rob g
06-20-2014, 08:49 PM
You sure about that?



Sorry. You are correct. I was just looking at the KCBS rules pamphlet

TooSaucedToPork
06-20-2014, 08:51 PM
KCBS doesn't require cooks to pass a test on what a teams submits as acceptable BBQ. Maybe they need to average the cooks past contests and assign to tables accordingly.

Correct, any Yahoo with a couple thousand bucks can be a cook, just like any Yahoo with $80 bucks can be a judge.

I'm a sectuple Yahoo, I'm a certified judge in 4 sanctioning bodies, and a cook in 3... :wink:

TooSaucedToPork
06-20-2014, 09:38 PM
Sorry. You are correct. I was just looking at the KCBS rules pamphlet

No biggie brother, my point is there is alot of info for a judge to remember, especially if that judge only does 3-4 contests a year. That's why testing and refreshes are so important

Smoke'n Ice
06-20-2014, 09:44 PM
The averaging, judge track and continuing education ides, while laudable, can only work in and around KC or other major BBQ contest hubs. Most of the judges in other areas of the country only judge one, maybe two, contest a year. Shoot, some are judges for the first time as witness the number of judging classes presented each year.

I'm starting to think that the idea of scrambling the judges each category may be the ONLY way to bring some semblance of fairness to the quandary of TOD/TOA

Rich Parker
06-20-2014, 09:46 PM
You get everyone on the same system...ie start from 6, start from 9; make sure they know all the rules, all the definitions.

You start with education. Once that happens, then you go to other problems. You eliminate the chance for mistakes, and then you are able to concentrate on outliers.

I understand all judges should be on the same system but that doesn't change anything on how they feel about scoring taste and appearance as they are both to subjective. What I feel is a 9 you may feel is a 6 even if we score the same system. We need to accept that and put the right people at the right tables to level them out. I am not saying that is a perfect method but would greatly improve the scenario.

TooSaucedToPork
06-20-2014, 09:53 PM
I understand all judges should be on the same system but that doesn't change anything on how they feel about scoring taste and appearance as they are both to subjective. What I feel is a 9 you may feel is a 6 even if we score the same system. We need to accept that and put the right people at the right tables to level them out. I am not saying that is a perfect method but would greatly improve the scenario.

Both are needed brother. I just feel that education can be implemented faster than the tracking system needed to fix the TOA TOD problem. No one can answer if KCBS has saved individual judges scores under their numbers. We do know that continuing education programs are currently being implemented. And testing could easily be added to these programs.

I also feel that if you input scores in from before an education mandate and after, you will see a difference in scores.

Gowan
06-20-2014, 10:01 PM
I brought up the idea of sorting judges by their average score to a new rep and the response I received was "that's too much work". While I don't agree with that attitude, it is the organizer's duties to recruit judges. Therefore, if organizers could submit a list of judges membership numbers to KCBS, say a week before their contest (after a final commitment from the judges), the judges' average scores could then be calculated and a seating chart sent back to the organizer. The chart could be posted and judges could seat themselves without the Reps. having to lift a finger. No-shows would still need to be replaced but standby judges would only change the table averages slightly.

Have you ever been involved with organizing judges for a contest?

I've been doing so for a over decade, and I have yet to see an event where you have a final list of judges a week before the contest. Anyone will tell you that I am one of the most fanatical people around about selecting judges and balancing tables, and yet still there are always last minute cancellations and substitutions. (And yes, my seating charts are posted on each table so The Walrus never has to lift a flipper).

Remember that unlike cooks, most judges have no financial incentive to attend beyond possibly a hotel room reservation. They are much more likely to change plans, and the more experienced they are the less it takes to sway them. Mr. Newbie is still grateful for actually being accepted to judge, but Mrs. Master will take that last minute invitation to sit with the grandbaby without thinking twice.

I'm not being harsh here as I'm a judge myself, I just think it's important to recognize that judges have different motivations than cooks. As cooks we are working for a big trophy and a bunch of cash, the best a judge can hope for is a tshirt and a pin.

TooSaucedToPork
06-20-2014, 11:30 PM
As cooks we are working for a big trophy and a bunch of cash, the best a judge can hope for is a tshirt and a pin.

What about the privledge of eating good bbq.
And walking around to teams after judging, making friends, and discussing what they like to see in the judging box.
How bout showing up to potlucks, introducing yourself and being part of the bbq family

Judges have the power to change bbq for the better. They have the power to describe to teams exactly what they feel perfection is. They have the power to lift a new team up after their first DAL and give them the confidence to try again. Judges have the direct power to help a team improve by filling out a comment card.

Judges have the power to change bbq for the better...but many squander it away. Many don't visit with teams, they don't communicate at all with teams. Many think comment cards are a chore, and refuse to use them.

Teams may get the trophies, but a judge has the ability to share that experience...a judge has the ability to mentor and educate.

As a judge you have the ability to create winners and be a proud papa when they win. Ask our BBQ Brethren QN about MIM 2012, a team he mentored won 2nd ribs in the world...he was giddy with excitement.

Gowan
06-21-2014, 12:23 AM
All of those first three are available to any enthusiastic Schmoe who shows up at a BBQ festival. Obviously the social aspects of the community are a plus for all involved.

I spoke directly to the tangible rewards offered to judges vs. cooks. As for the "powers" you endow judges with, consider the following:

The average judge is considerably older than the average cook, and often retired.
Cooks can be a boisterous lot on Friday night, and judges are instructed to stay away from teams on Saturday. Combine that with the judge-bashing prevalent in the various BBQ forums and the smack talk some like to engage in, and interacting with the cooks must seem intimidating to Mr & Ms AARP.

I can give you one concrete example of this - at the current contest I organize, we distribute all the goodie bags to the teams. Each team gets two bags: one to keep and one for a judge. When judging is completed, each CBJ draws a team from a hat to go out and chat with and claim their bag. It's a program designed to break down the barriers between cooks and judges, and almost universally well received.

But not totally accepted, because every year I speak with at least one team who tells me their judge never arrived. This puzzles me. It's not that they aren't physically able to get there, we give bags directly to those with mobility issues. It's not that they can't find the team as I show each where the team is on a park map and describe their rig. All I can figure is there are a handful of folks in every group who are just painfully shy about meeting with cooks and would rather abandon their swag than walk into a team's camp and say hi.

I don't know what else I can do other than pass out Powdermilk Biscuits in the judging tent.

ModelMaker
06-21-2014, 07:24 AM
What about the privledge of eating good bbq.
And walking around to teams after judging, making friends, and discussing what they like to see in the judging box.
How bout showing up to potlucks, introducing yourself and being part of the bbq family

Judges have the power to change bbq for the better. They have the power to describe to teams exactly what they feel perfection is. They have the power to lift a new team up after their first DAL and give them the confidence to try again. Judges have the direct power to help a team improve by filling out a comment card.

Judges have the power to change bbq for the better...but many squander it away. Many don't visit with teams, they don't communicate at all with teams. Many think comment cards are a chore, and refuse to use them.

Teams may get the trophies, but a judge has the ability to share that experience...a judge has the ability to mentor and educate.

As a judge you have the ability to create winners and be a proud papa when they win. Ask our BBQ Brethren QN about MIM 2012, a team he mentored won 2nd ribs in the world...he was giddy with excitement.

A very thoughtful and very true post. Thank you very much.
Ed

TooSaucedToPork
06-21-2014, 07:56 AM
All of those first three are available to any enthusiastic Schmoe who shows up at a BBQ festival. Obviously the social aspects of the community are a plus for all involved.

I spoke directly to the tangible rewards offered to judges vs. cooks. As for the "powers" you endow judges with, consider the following:

The average judge is considerably older than the average cook, and often retired.
Cooks can be a boisterous lot on Friday night, and judges are instructed to stay away from teams on Saturday. Combine that with the judge-bashing prevalent in the various BBQ forums and the smack talk some like to engage in, and interacting with the cooks must seem intimidating to Mr & Ms AARP.

I can give you one concrete example of this - at the current contest I organize, we distribute all the goodie bags to the teams. Each team gets two bags: one to keep and one for a judge. When judging is completed, each CBJ draws a team from a hat to go out and chat with and claim their bag. It's a program designed to break down the barriers between cooks and judges, and almost universally well received.

But not totally accepted, because every year I speak with at least one team who tells me their judge never arrived. This puzzles me. It's not that they aren't physically able to get there, we give bags directly to those with mobility issues. It's not that they can't find the team as I show each where the team is on a park map and describe their rig. All I can figure is there are a handful of folks in every group who are just painfully shy about meeting with cooks and would rather abandon their swag than walk into a team's camp and say hi.

I don't know what else I can do other than pass out Powdermilk Biscuits in the judging tent.

What you are doing is Awesome, if we were at your contest we would take as many judge bags as you could give us. There is a huge divide between cook and judge ,in KCBS and I'm glad to see someone solving the problem.

You know what would be really cool to have, a MCBJ panel for an hour on a Friday before a contest. 6 MCBJs sitting at a table, and teams could ask questions about what they like and don't like.

My belief is judge's feel bashed because cooks have unanswered questions. Knowledge is power, and in KCBS, Judges have a lot of knowledge, and therefore they own the power of change

arrowhead
06-21-2014, 11:32 AM
All of those first three are available to any enthusiastic Schmoe who shows up at a BBQ festival. Obviously the social aspects of the community are a plus for all involved.

I spoke directly to the tangible rewards offered to judges vs. cooks. As for the "powers" you endow judges with, consider the following:

The average judge is considerably older than the average cook, and often retired.
Cooks can be a boisterous lot on Friday night, and judges are instructed to stay away from teams on Saturday. Combine that with the judge-bashing prevalent in the various BBQ forums and the smack talk some like to engage in, and interacting with the cooks must seem intimidating to Mr & Ms AARP.

I can give you one concrete example of this - at the current contest I organize, we distribute all the goodie bags to the teams. Each team gets two bags: one to keep and one for a judge. When judging is completed, each CBJ draws a team from a hat to go out and chat with and claim their bag. It's a program designed to break down the barriers between cooks and judges, and almost universally well received.

But not totally accepted, because every year I speak with at least one team who tells me their judge never arrived. This puzzles me. It's not that they aren't physically able to get there, we give bags directly to those with mobility issues. It's not that they can't find the team as I show each where the team is on a park map and describe their rig. All I can figure is there are a handful of folks in every group who are just painfully shy about meeting with cooks and would rather abandon their swag than walk into a team's camp and say hi.

I don't know what else I can do other than pass out Powdermilk Biscuits in the judging tent.

as an organizer i am going to do this, thank you.

Roast Beast
06-21-2014, 03:40 PM
What you are doing is Awesome, if we were at your contest we would take as many judge bags as you could give us. There is a huge divide between cook and judge ,in KCBS and I'm glad to see someone solving the problem.


It works well. Our assigned judge wasn't particularly chatty and didn't want any of our BBQ (we did convince her to take some dessert), but it was still a good experience. Our neighbor's judges hung around their camp for a while and I believe sampled some of their meats and gave feedback.

Gowan
06-21-2014, 07:55 PM
as an organizer i am going to do this, thank you.

Hope it works for you!

Here are a few details to consider when implementing "meet the teams":

1) Do not allow any food to leave the judging tent. No coolers, no bags, no drumsticks in purses. Judges who want to take food home may ask for it from their assigned team (see #2).

2) Stress at both the cooks and judges meetings that both groups are not to attempt to break the blind. Cooks should not show photos of their boxes or ask what table number the judge was on. Judges should likewise not volunteer any specifics about how their table scored or any other information that would defeat the blinding procedures.

3) Encourage the cooks to offer to share take-home samples of their BBQ for their visiting judge if they want it (many do not, but some like to share the experience with their family members back home). When you explain that this is the trade off for not allowing judges to take any food out of the judging tent, most teams accept the idea readily.

3) You will probably have more judges than you have teams. What I do to deal with this disparity is to ask if there is anyone who cannot walk out and see a team because they have to leave immediately or have limited mobility. These people are given bags immediately in the judging tent. Next I give bags to anyone working the turn in or grazing tables (this ensures the teams are only meeting the judges and table captains who actually saw the entries that day). Finally I put the appropriate number of "Sorry!" slips in the draw bin, to make sure everyone gets a chance to draw, otherwise the last few judges in line won't have a chance at visiting a team.

4) Be sure to have someone ready to direct the judges to their assigned team. A site map is a big help, or at least someone who was involved in placing all the teams and can give accurate instructions on how to find each one. A timid judge won't ask around the lot if they can't find their team and may just give up. Remember by this time many teams have begun their break-down and may have already packed up identifying banners.

Podge
06-22-2014, 10:47 AM
The judges meal in a Brick and Mortar, using proper competitve math would be $1680...

.

Damn... profound statement

peterz
06-22-2014, 02:00 PM
Damn... profound statement

Or someone is smoking the good stuff.............if you know what I mean =)