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tree
06-16-2014, 12:20 PM
Ok.... I dont want to sound like a bad sport. I am just a little confused about some of or last few scores. We have had scores all over the place. on the same table as 9 9 9 and 9 9 8 we get a 7 7 7? I dont think it was necessarily the judge because looking at what they gave another team they should have been on point because I know he knows his stuff and they judged it so.

I dont think its my product..... But how do you guys feel about turn in times? do yall feel early entries do better because the judges pallet isnt tired and has a fresh look at it?

fnbish
06-16-2014, 12:25 PM
Need more information here to really give feedback. Are you saying those 3 scores were for the same entry? 777 isn't that bad. I've gotten 7's at a table from a judge where the rest are 8 & 9's. That isn't that uncommon. If it was something like a 555 then yeah I'd be wondering. What were your other scores for that entry? And what have you consistently been getting in whichever category this was?

I don't think the judges pallets get that tired.

tree
06-16-2014, 12:42 PM
Ill have to pull my sheets when I get home. Just thinking at lunch. Just trying to better our scores, but when they are all over the place I cant think of how to improve.

Jorge
06-16-2014, 12:53 PM
Ill have to pull my sheets when I get home. Just thinking at lunch. Just trying to better our scores, but when they are all over the place I cant think of how to improve.

Lots of variables. If your flavor profile isn't "safe" you get into a situation where some judges may love it, and others not so much even when you nail it. Lots of flavor is fine. Being unique can become a gamble.

Well cooked meat and your choices of what to put in the box can a factor. I've sliced a brisket that's been what I'd consider to be too dry until I get into the $ portion several slices. If I roll the dice to go with taking all of my slices from the same brisket and use a couple that may have less moisture, or different tenderness it's fair for the scores to vary even though the samples came from the same piece of meat.

Be honest, but fair with yourself. If you have somebody you trust near you at a contest let them try a sample and get their feedback. Just remember that it's their opinion, and weight it accordingly based on your knowledge of their skill or lack thereof;)

DawgPhan
06-16-2014, 01:09 PM
I always think about the scores like this, you basically need to be perfect to get called. If you can think of anything that didnt go exactly perfect during your cook, chances are you got caught on that.

It takes being honest with yourself when you think about your cook.

Blaming the judges is the easy way out.

INmitch
06-16-2014, 02:20 PM
Don't know where you cooked. But if it was Jeffersonville IN last weekend and you hit table 327 (if my memory serves me) it was the TOD. Best briskie I've cooked in a year and finished 37th. QSB hit it on pork. Going to look at the scoresheet a little closer tonight to see who else hit it.










It had to be the judges cause that d@mn PnPBS yak took 1st n 2nd place.:mmph:

Podge
06-16-2014, 04:17 PM
I've been seeing some screwy judging and tables over the past couple of contests.. I am starting to wonder if it's the region/area I am cooking in. I could write a long dissertation on my thoughts over the past couple of contests, looking at everyone's scores. But not really worth the debate. I still believe the cream rises to the top when you average out several contests..

it's not necessary to have good luck to win a contest.. To win a contest, its to not have any bad luck. (and of course, be a good cook and have everything dang near perfect) I've seen some bad tables along with TOD's. I've also seen some really good and fair tables.

Wampus
06-16-2014, 04:51 PM
Yeah, I'd say that blaming judges CAN be an easy way out, but it's not always incorrect. Sometimes it seems things are screwy for sure. When you can win brisket one week, next week knowing it was better than the week before and it scores DAL. After 50 contests, it's not like we don't know the difference between OK and excellent brisket.


To the OP, I'd say it's likely a combination of several things, a screwy score here and there, not putting the best stuff in the box, luck (good or bad), etc.

Two weeks ago our ribs were overcooked (bones falling out while flipping the rack to slice) and brisket was phenomenal and we get our highest call in ribs and 26th out of 35 in brisket. :doh:
We gave up trying to figure out scores a while ago. That's competition BBQ for ya.

Garrett
06-16-2014, 04:56 PM
Yep, it's like scoring one week with a mediocre brisket and the next time cooking the best brisket in your life and the judges think it's terrible.

With the new score sheets, I wonder if trying to "read" into the scores too much has folks baffled? I know it does me. I think a lot of the problem and I know it's been beat to death is the lack of comment cards.

tree
06-16-2014, 05:05 PM
Yeah.... I really hope I'm not coming off as blaming the judges for our scores. I just dont like the scores. I want to do better. Just looking for the "proof in the pudd'n" as the say in the south. Im new to this game and I'm just trying to swallow the honesty of the judges and make improvements on thier criteria in the score. Its just the inconsistency that has me scratching my head. I am happy with what we turned in and the next comp well do the same thing. Maybe we are a little in left field with our product. Who knows. Its like they say.... Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Podge
06-16-2014, 05:07 PM
It's the best thing and the worst thing, putting the tables on the score sheets. I can see some people/teams getting frustrated and quitting. It makes roulette seem to have better odds...

ShencoSmoke
06-16-2014, 05:50 PM
After this past weekend I am now a huge advocate of comment cards. Turned in the best chicken of my life, double bite thru, everything was spot on. Ended up finishing mid pack but I received a comment card that pointed out a very specific reason a few of the scores were low. I didn't agree with the comment but without the card I would have been completely baffled. Thank you mystery judge for allowing me to keep my sanity.

fnbish
06-16-2014, 06:47 PM
Yeah.... I really hope I'm not coming off as blaming the judges for our scores. I just dont like the scores. I want to do better. Just looking for the "proof in the pudd'n" as the say in the south. Im new to this game and I'm just trying to swallow the honesty of the judges and make improvements on thier criteria in the score. Its just the inconsistency that has me scratching my head. I am happy with what we turned in and the next comp well do the same thing. Maybe we are a little in left field with our product. Who knows. Its like they say.... Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

To me "9 9 9 and 9 9 8 we get a 7 7 7" is not inconsistent. Again you left out your other scores for this category so it is hard for anyone here to analyze anything based on 3 judges. How were they scores of all your other categories? Were they more consistent?

Porcine Perfection
06-17-2014, 12:30 PM
Yep, it's like scoring one week with a mediocre brisket and the next time cooking the best brisket in your life and the judges think it's terrible.

With the new score sheets, I wonder if trying to "read" into the scores too much has folks baffled? I know it does me. I think a lot of the problem and I know it's been beat to death is the lack of comment cards.

Right on brother. This being my first year I know I need to improve in a lot of areas, but I have judged enough to know where I need to improve. I have scored well on some crap and scored low on (what I thought) was a very good entry.

You can see the TOD and TOA by looking at the scoresheet. The few comps I have been in it was very obvious. This has probably always been the case, the results just weren't on the paper like they are now.

The other thing I can think of for inconsistency is that with the recent surge in BBQ popularity there are many new judges. I just don't see a new judge and a ten year veteran judge scoring an entry the same.

bbq.tom
06-17-2014, 01:17 PM
The other thing I can think of for inconsistency is that with the recent surge in BBQ popularity there are many new judges. I just don't see a new judge and a ten year veteran judge scoring an entry the same.

You are exactly right speaking in generalizations now, new judges tend to score MUCH lower than experienced judges. I cringe every time I'm a TC with a "new" judge at my table, as I know that their scores will probably be lower than the rest. Unfortunately, it is usually AFTER chicken that this judge is talked to by the REP about raising their scores. Sometimes helps, but too often not by much. Burns my butt to see "old" experienced CMJs that almost never give a 9 also! Judging is NOT that difficult - if it is excellent, then give it the 9 it deserves!!!

ShencoSmoke
06-17-2014, 08:52 PM
You are exactly right speaking in generalizations now, new judges tend to score MUCH lower than experienced judges. I cringe every time I'm a TC with a "new" judge at my table, as I know that their scores will probably be lower than the rest. Unfortunately, it is usually AFTER chicken that this judge is talked to by the REP about raising their scores. Sometimes helps, but too often not by much. Burns my butt to see "old" experienced CMJs that almost never give a 9 also! Judging is NOT that difficult - if it is excellent, then give it the 9 it deserves!!!

Can we clone you tom?

bbq.tom
06-17-2014, 09:03 PM
Can we clone you tom?

Beware of what you ask!!! Fortunately, my wife agrees with me, so it kind of is like I've been cloned (or clowned!).

Thanks Craig!

Dex
06-18-2014, 07:09 AM
Don't know where you cooked. But if it was Jeffersonville IN last weekend and you hit table 327 (if my memory serves me) it was the TOD. Best briskie I've cooked in a year and finished 37th. QSB hit it on pork. Going to look at the scoresheet a little closer tonight to see who else hit it.


It had to be the judges cause that d@mn PnPBS yak took 1st n 2nd place.:mmph:

Jeffersonville was tough for us too. Our 1st place pork from our last competition landed us 47th (and we thought it was better)

We aren't changing a thing though.

It would be nice if a comment card was mandatory from any judge that gives a 6 or below. I know it won't ever happen, but it would help teams from scratching their head when they see their scores.

bbq.tom
06-18-2014, 08:00 AM
It would be nice if a comment card was mandatory from any judge that gives a 6 or below. I know it won't ever happen, but it would help teams from scratching their head when they see their scores.

My personal rule is to provide a comment card for anything below a 7; HOWEVER, a 6 is "average" so I'm also quite sure that KCBS will never make it mandatory for a 6. 5 and below should defilitely be mandatory.
I understand the head scratching, but to make a comment card mandatory for a particular score will just mean that "some" judges will not use those scoring numbers just so they don't have to leave a comment card.

Podge
06-18-2014, 08:06 AM
Jeffersonville was tough for us too. Our 1st place pork from our last competition landed us 47th (and we thought it was better)

We aren't changing a thing though.

It would be nice if a comment card was mandatory from any judge that gives a 6 or below. I know it won't ever happen, but it would help teams from scratching their head when they see their scores.

Don't feel alone.. there's a lot of head scratching over the past few contests in that area.. Just got to look at the table you landed on and if it was a low scoring table, don't change a thing.

Mikeinctown
06-18-2014, 09:09 AM
Jeffersonville was tough for us too. Our 1st place pork from our last competition landed us 47th (and we thought it was better)

We aren't changing a thing though.

It would be nice if a comment card was mandatory from any judge that gives a 6 or below. I know it won't ever happen, but it would help teams from scratching their head when they see their scores.

Then maybe the rules need to change to 45 minutes between turn ins and make it manditory that EVERY entry gets a comment card, good or bad.

If a judge gave an entry a 9 and another judge gave the entry a 6, and perhaps others gave the entry 7s, then you would know why all felt the way they did. The guy who gave a 9 might say that the entry had a lot of spice, the way they feel it should be. Even that could be constructive criticism. (perhaps the judge wasn't new *or* well experienced and wasn't an "angel", he was just liking really spicy stuff)

RumRunner_1492
06-18-2014, 10:11 AM
Ok.... I dont want to sound like a bad sport. I am just a little confused about some of or last few scores. We have had scores all over the place. on the same table as 9 9 9 and 9 9 8 we get a 7 7 7? I dont think it was necessarily the judge because looking at what they gave another team they should have been on point because I know he knows his stuff and they judged it so.

I dont think its my product..... But how do you guys feel about turn in times? do yall feel early entries do better because the judges pallet isnt tired and has a fresh look at it?

The turn in times don't matter. As soon as they get 5-6 boxes turned in they are off to a judges table.

I have often wondered if turning in early would be tougher because I think most good teams turn in as soon as possible since they are better at time management.

bbq.tom
06-18-2014, 10:18 AM
Then maybe the rules need to change to 45 minutes between turn ins and make it manditory that EVERY entry gets a comment card, good or bad.


I've been espousing this for YEARS!!! I would love to see a comment for each and EVERY entry! That would definitely give the teams direct knowledge of WHY they scored the way they did. And 45 minutes would be sufficient to enable this action.
This may eliminate some judges (those who are not as serious as should be IMHO), but there are PLENTY of judges out there! More being made all the time!

DawgPhan
06-18-2014, 10:31 AM
Requiring a comment card doesnt solve the problem.

Extending turn in times doesnt solve the problem.

Continuing education for the judges and KCBS reinforcing the standards that they want bbq to be judged by addresses the problems. We need more consistency in judging, we dont need more time between turnins or more comment cards about lighter fluid and overcooked meat.

Mikeinctown
06-18-2014, 10:43 AM
DawgPhan, I'm sorry but but when taste is part of the judging , there is no "standard" that one can be taught. Every judge has a different like and dislike. As far as I can tell, there is no one seasoning everyone has to use by rule. Most people agree that ribs will toughen up a bit as they sit in a box. If a team turns in what they think is perfect and all teh comments say too much tug or too tough then they need to figure out things better.

every comment i have read here basically claims that judges don't fill out comment cards because they claim there isn't enough time with the 30 minutes between meats. Increasing teh time allows everyone to write a comment. You taste the sample and while providing a score write down why. Too spicy, bland, or anything else is helpful as to why a score was given. takes all of 5-10 seconds per entry, maybe 30 if it is more involved.

Comments also add to accountability. You need to have a solid reason why you gave the score you did. a simple comment can justify that.

Podge
06-18-2014, 10:55 AM
DawgPhan, I'm sorry but but when taste is part of the judging , there is no "standard" that one can be taught. Every judge has a different like and dislike. As far as I can tell, there is no one seasoning everyone has to use by rule. Most people agree that ribs will toughen up a bit as they sit in a box. If a team turns in what they think is perfect and all teh comments say too much tug or too tough then they need to figure out things better.

every comment i have read here basically claims that judges don't fill out comment cards because they claim there isn't enough time with the 30 minutes between meats. Increasing teh time allows everyone to write a comment. You taste the sample and while providing a score write down why. Too spicy, bland, or anything else is helpful as to why a score was given. takes all of 5-10 seconds per entry, maybe 30 if it is more involved.

Comments also add to accountability. You need to have a solid reason why you gave the score you did. a simple comment can justify that.

I will add too, that all a judge needs to do at the minimum on the comment card, is write down the entry number, their 3 digit score and a few check marks. It'd do me a lot of good to see 6 comment cards on the tenderness of my chicken, because I am having a hard time figuring out if it's too tough or too tender.

bbq.tom
06-18-2014, 11:00 AM
KCBS is not the only organization that I judge for and in one of the other organizations a comment is required for each and every entry judged. This requires every judge to justify the score given (i.e., to be held accountable). This aspect of judging will definitely help the cook teams understand why they got the score that they received.

The inconsistancy will NOT be solved by judges providing comments to the teams, but the teams would know why they got the scores received. Until KCBS provides re-training to ALL KCBS judges, to bring ALL judges to the same methodology of judging - where to start - 6, 7, 9, or just give it the score according to the description on the card. Until every judge utilizes the same "standard" for judging there will always be a problem. I agree that there can't be a "standard" for taste, but for the judging process it needs fixed.

DawgPhan
06-18-2014, 11:53 AM
DawgPhan, I'm sorry but but when taste is part of the judging , there is no "standard" that one can be taught. Every judge has a different like and dislike. As far as I can tell, there is no one seasoning everyone has to use by rule. Most people agree that ribs will toughen up a bit as they sit in a box. If a team turns in what they think is perfect and all teh comments say too much tug or too tough then they need to figure out things better.

every comment i have read here basically claims that judges don't fill out comment cards because they claim there isn't enough time with the 30 minutes between meats. Increasing teh time allows everyone to write a comment. You taste the sample and while providing a score write down why. Too spicy, bland, or anything else is helpful as to why a score was given. takes all of 5-10 seconds per entry, maybe 30 if it is more involved.

Comments also add to accountability. You need to have a solid reason why you gave the score you did. a simple comment can justify that.


None of those things actually improve the accuracy or credibility of the judging.

Continuing education and enforcing a standard does. KCBS should be defining that version of BBQ they want to see. There can be a standard for taste on each category.

DawgPhan
06-18-2014, 11:59 AM
KCBS is not the only organization that I judge for and in one of the other organizations a comment is required for each and every entry judged. This requires every judge to justify the score given (i.e., to be held accountable). This aspect of judging will definitely help the cook teams understand why they got the score that they received.

The inconsistancy will NOT be solved by judges providing comments to the teams, but the teams would know why they got the scores received. Until KCBS provides re-training to ALL KCBS judges, to bring ALL judges to the same methodology of judging - where to start - 6, 7, 9, or just give it the score according to the description on the card. Until every judge utilizes the same "standard" for judging there will always be a problem. I agree that there can't be a "standard" for taste, but for the judging process it needs fixed.


Comments cards dont provide accountability. How could they?

I give a team a 5-5-5 on chicken. I fill out my mandatory comment card with "It sucked". I do this for 3 more categories. I come back the next year and do it again. I take time off work and travel to another state and do it there. wash. rinse. repeat. What accountability is that comment card creating?

Accountability comes from reps, organizers, teams, and KCBS. Those comment cards are not going to supply it.

gettinbasted
06-18-2014, 12:01 PM
I'm always in the minority on this, but it is the judges job to judge our food. It is not their job to teach us how to cook.

Some oversight on aberrant scores would be nice on the KCBS side so we get consistent scores, but informing us why a judge liked or didn't like our food is not their job.

tree
06-18-2014, 01:03 PM
Finally had a chance to look back at my sheet. 999 , 998 , 777 , 988 , 988. I know that's not a winning score. Its just those dang 7's seem out of left field.

JeffR
06-18-2014, 01:15 PM
7 7 7 does not look like left field to me. Certainly two judges were not wowed.

Podge
06-18-2014, 02:07 PM
I'm always in the minority on this, but it is the judges job to judge our food. It is not their job to teach us how to cook.

Some oversight on aberrant scores would be nice on the KCBS side so we get consistent scores, but informing us why a judge liked or didn't like our food is not their job.

Maybe it should be their job to tell us what about the food they did or didn't like??? (just bringing up the question) To know "Why" or "Why not" is human nature.

I know the responsibility is for the judge to (hopefully) become certified, judge the meat to the best of their ability, write a score down, fill out a comment card if they feel they should, pack their cooler if they bring one, and go home. While the rest of us beat ourselves up wondering why one of them gives us a 999 and the other gives us a 777.. spend thousands of dollars in various expenses, practice cooks, etc. in hopes to hit a lick with those judges who give us 777's and just cross our fingers that we hit the mark so those judges will turn those into 999's the next time. It cut the curve for some people if they just knew that this one just thought his food was way too hot, etc...

I heard this 1,000 times in 10 years from people… “I’m just trying to figure out what judges want?!?!”.. be nice if we had a clue every now and then. Be nice to know why it hit the way it did, and why it sucked this time… Watching "Chopped" even those 3 judges have different opinions, but you get to hear what those are.

TooSaucedToPork
06-18-2014, 02:08 PM
What is the average score for that judge that day at that table.

Now compare that judges average scores to his tablemates.

Did everyone score your food much higher than their average?

This will give you a better idea of what they thought than individual numbers.

fnbish
06-18-2014, 02:17 PM
Finally had a chance to look back at my sheet. 999 , 998 , 777 , 988 , 988. I know that's not a winning score. Its just those dang 7's seem out of left field.

Your missing one judge still :mrgreen:

Podge
06-18-2014, 02:31 PM
What is the average score for that judge that day at that table.

Now compare that judges average scores to his tablemates.

Did everyone score your food much higher than their average?

This will give you a better idea of what they thought than individual numbers.

That is another good point. I was 25th in a contest of 34 teams. taking all 24 judges' average numbers, against 24 of the numbers I got from them, all in all I was 10% higher. So, I got great scores from low-scoring judges.

Pappy Q
06-18-2014, 02:38 PM
I've struggled with trying to understand the judging process since beginning competitons (in my 5th season). I've gotten mad, frustrated and just crazy trying to understand why a judge gave me a certain score. Finally after missing GC by 1/100th of a point last month, the light bulb went off that there's not a damn thing I can do about what goes on in the judging tent. All I can control is what I put in the box. From there it's out of my hands and the chips will fall where they may. It was like a weight was lifted off my shoulders. Last contest I thought I had much better stuff than what the scores reflected but I just shrugged it off as out of my control. Hope I can keep that attitude but know it's going to be tough. I have judges cooking with me this weekend to earn their MCBJ status and I have no desire to know what they think of my entries. I'll let them taste each entry but I'm not asking them what they think. Now what the wife does will probably be a different story.

tree
06-18-2014, 02:59 PM
What is the average score for that judge that day at that table.

Now compare that judges average scores to his tablemates.

Did everyone score your food much higher than their average?

This will give you a better idea of what they thought than individual numbers.


Was a few little about average on the other 5 judges. The one that hit me had an average in the 31.5's and mine ended up in the 28's. All there averages were not way off from each other.

TooSaucedToPork
06-18-2014, 03:20 PM
So a high scorer gave a low score. What was that score in?

Could it have been a bad piece of meat...chip of bone, a few bitter drops of creosote, a pooling of rub and sauce that created grit, a tought pocket not in the other chunks of meat.

If your entry was scored down by 1 judge that scored high the rest of the day, there are a few options.

#1 something wrong with entry
#2 you got a spice, flavor or tenderness that didn't agree w the judge
#3 judge is an idiot...probably not likely in this particular case

tree
06-18-2014, 04:09 PM
Your missing one judge still :mrgreen:


Ok.... I'm a stupid.... here goes. I have been posting from work on my phone so I keep forgetting to proof read it.

999 , 998 , 777 , 988 , 988 , 998. Placed 46th of 73. Brisket

All in all I'm pleased with my cook and turn in. Will do it exactly the same next time. My scores were with or above the average scores on 5 of the 6 judges. Judge 3 just didn't like my cook and the sun will come up tomorrow. They were not a low scoring judge. Judging is not an easy task and we are depending on thier opinion and we all know what opinions are like. I guess every dog has his day and that wasn't this dogs day.

TooSaucedToPork
06-18-2014, 04:20 PM
God those scores and 46th???

I wish judges scored like that in the Northeast :shock:

DawgPhan
06-18-2014, 04:25 PM
God those scores and 46th???

I wish judges scored like that in the Northeast :shock:


unless my math is off that is a 170.8572.

I would be very surprised if a 170 gets you 46th at any contest in any category...

If a 170 is that low then there is something else entire wrong with the judging.

Jorge
06-18-2014, 04:31 PM
Ok.... I'm a stupid.... here goes. I have been posting from work on my phone so I keep forgetting to proof read it.

999 , 998 , 777 , 988 , 988 , 998. Placed 46th of 73. Brisket

All in all I'm pleased with my cook and turn in. Will do it exactly the same next time. My scores were with or above the average scores on 5 of the 6 judges. Judge 3 just didn't like my cook and the sun will come up tomorrow. They were not a low scoring judge. Judging is not an easy task and we are depending on thier opinion and we all know what opinions are like. I guess every dog has his day and that wasn't this dogs day.

Which contest was this? I'm having a hard time visualizing those scores being the 46th best. If that's what's on your sheet KCBS may want to pull the cards and do an audit.

Pappy Q
06-18-2014, 04:33 PM
Ok.... I'm a stupid.... here goes. I have been posting from work on my phone so I keep forgetting to proof read it.

999 , 998 , 777 , 988 , 988 , 998. Placed 46th of 73. Brisket

All in all I'm pleased with my cook and turn in. Will do it exactly the same next time. My scores were with or above the average scores on 5 of the 6 judges. Judge 3 just didn't like my cook and the sun will come up tomorrow. They were not a low scoring judge. Judging is not an easy task and we are depending on thier opinion and we all know what opinions are like. I guess every dog has his day and that wasn't this dogs day.

What contest was this? I'd love to see the scores for 1-45.

fnbish
06-18-2014, 04:33 PM
Ok.... I'm a stupid.... here goes. I have been posting from work on my phone so I keep forgetting to proof read it.

999 , 998 , 777 , 988 , 988 , 998. Placed 46th of 73. Brisket

All in all I'm pleased with my cook and turn in. Will do it exactly the same next time. My scores were with or above the average scores on 5 of the 6 judges. Judge 3 just didn't like my cook and the sun will come up tomorrow. They were not a low scoring judge. Judging is not an easy task and we are depending on thier opinion and we all know what opinions are like. I guess every dog has his day and that wasn't this dogs day.

Wow they dropped 777 and you were still 46th with all the other scores?? What was your total score?

DUBBAGA
06-18-2014, 04:46 PM
Ok.... I'm a stupid.... here goes. I have been posting from work on my phone so I keep forgetting to proof read it.

999 , 998 , 777 , 988 , 988 , 998. Placed 46th of 73. Brisket

All in all I'm pleased with my cook and turn in. Will do it exactly the same next time. My scores were with or above the average scores on 5 of the 6 judges. Judge 3 just didn't like my cook and the sun will come up tomorrow. They were not a low scoring judge. Judging is not an easy task and we are depending on thier opinion and we all know what opinions are like. I guess every dog has his day and that wasn't this dogs day.

46th out of 73 = Too Bad You're My Cousin with a brisket score of 161.6572 at Blue Ridge BBQ & Music Festival in Tryon, NC

DR
06-18-2014, 04:57 PM
There are 2 MAJOR problems with judging, that in my opinion need to be changed sooner than later. One is there are no fractions given. I have said before, i am a new cook on the scene, but have already been a judge for several years. I am also a registered/certified judge in several other competitive style events such as fitness, horse showing, and a couple others (I have always loved to be educated and help judge people so they can get better). In other competitive events you can give fractions down to either 1/8th of a point or (The much easier version) down to a quarter of a point. A box might be a toss up between an 8 and a 9 for example. If i could give a 1/4 point fractions, i can ask myself is it closer to an 8 or a 9. For argumentative sake, lets say i think its closer to a 9 but not quite. Then i could give it an 8.5 or an 8.75. This would help in many different areas but could help young judges get closer to what the "Actual" score should be.

The biggest thing that needs to be changed, in my opinion, is the amount of subjectivity and personal preference that is allowed in judging. Lets focus on taste to start off with and this is just an example in a perfect world. I love heat and lots of it. My mom thinks black pepper is too hot. If you put a rib in front of both of us that is hot and sweet, i am (For example) going to like it if everything is spot on and might give it an 8 or 9. My mom, on the other hand, is going to spit it out and think its too hot and give it a 4 (These numbers are all just examples so don't think these are set in stone). How is this competitor supposed to know who to cook for? If he puts anything more than black pepper on it, my mom hates it. If its not hot enough i am not going to like it. SO what gives? There needs to be very specific standards as to what good flavor is and what guidelines you are to go off of. The current set of rules leaves way too much grey area in each category. Lets take appearance for example. You are just to judge on appearance of the box but they don't tell you that the pieces should all be the exact same size or anything like that. Thats a personal opinion. They tell you to look for the appearance, proper number of pieces of meat and appropriate garnish. There is no rule for having sauce smeared all over the lid (I know i know thats part of a nice appearance and we all count off for it) but there is no rule saying you can't!

They just need to broaden the scale and take the personal preferences out of all of it and make each judge follow a set guideline so each judge is judging on the same things. Its not hard but at the same time, when they allow you to judge on what YOU think is appropriate instead of them telling you what is appropriate, this is where all the discrepancies come from. DR

TooSaucedToPork
06-18-2014, 05:08 PM
Judges are to judge based on "is this what this is supposed to taste like" not personal preferences. As a judge your mom should know that there will be some heat, so she should judge based on "that rib should taste x way" Not that rib is to hot "spit". The flavors should balance. The perfect tasting bbq makes everyone happy...thus as a cook you strive to cook the most average bbq possible that appeals to everyone on the world.

Personal preferences do come into play, but the right frame of mind is necessary at the start

Jorge
06-18-2014, 05:14 PM
The biggest thing that needs to be changed, in my opinion, is the amount of subjectivity and personal preference that is allowed in judging. Lets focus on taste to start off with and this is just an example in a perfect world. I love heat and lots of it. My mom thinks black pepper is too hot. If you put a rib in front of both of us that is hot and sweet, i am (For example) going to like it if everything is spot on and might give it an 8 or 9. My mom, on the other hand, is going to spit it out and think its too hot and give it a 4 (These numbers are all just examples so don't think these are set in stone). How is this competitor supposed to know who to cook for? If he puts anything more than black pepper on it, my mom hates it. If its not hot enough i am not going to like it. SO what gives? There needs to be very specific standards as to what good flavor is and what guidelines you are to go off of. The current set of rules leaves way too much grey area in each category. Lets take appearance for example. You are just to judge on appearance of the box but they don't tell you that the pieces should all be the exact same size or anything like that. Thats a personal opinion. They tell you to look for the appearance, proper number of pieces of meat and appropriate garnish. There is no rule for having sauce smeared all over the lid (I know i know thats part of a nice appearance and we all count off for it) but there is no rule saying you can't!



Actually sauce on the lid is covered, and is not supposed to result in a deduction. Once the cook sets the box on the table, they have no control over what happens to it and as a result KCBS does have policy covering that.

Ron_L
06-18-2014, 05:21 PM
Ok.... I'm a stupid.... here goes. I have been posting from work on my phone so I keep forgetting to proof read it.

999 , 998 , 777 , 988 , 988 , 998. Placed 46th of 73. Brisket

All in all I'm pleased with my cook and turn in. Will do it exactly the same next time. My scores were with or above the average scores on 5 of the 6 judges. Judge 3 just didn't like my cook and the sun will come up tomorrow. They were not a low scoring judge. Judging is not an easy task and we are depending on thier opinion and we all know what opinions are like. I guess every dog has his day and that wasn't this dogs day.

Are you sure about those scores? That's a 170.8344. That's good enough to take first in a lot of competitions around here. I could see that being top 5, but 46th?

What competition was this?

Porcine Perfection
06-18-2014, 08:28 PM
My goodness! If those are really your scores don't change a thing. I know most of us will take a 170 any day.

Podge
06-19-2014, 10:17 AM
My goodness! If those are really your scores don't change a thing. I know most of us will take a 170 any day.

A 170 in my area most of the time won't get a call. I remember I got a 174.somehting in chicken at the sam's nationals and came in 16th. In my neck of the woods, I want and need a 175 average in all 4 to win a GC. (685-705)

This could be part of the problem.. high scoring contests could lead to the TOD being even more deadly. Maybe the tables who score low aren't the problem.. maybe tables scoring way too high are?

Smokedelic
06-19-2014, 12:02 PM
Maybe the tables who score low aren't the problem.. maybe tables scoring way too high are?
Bingo!!! Give this man a prize!

Garrett
06-19-2014, 12:21 PM
Podge nailed it!!! In NC you almost have to be perfect to get called. Lots of 170's are middle of the pack scores here. I think that's why a lot of teams leave contest scratching their heads. You may also be right about the scores being too high. Not taking anything away from other regions and teams, but it's tough competing in this area.

Podge
06-19-2014, 01:06 PM
Take a look at KCBS's website.. contests for June 2007, compared to contests now in 2014. Then, 650-680 won. now, 680-708 win. a TOD score of 155 is more deadly now than what it was back then.

Balls Casten
06-24-2014, 12:22 PM
Did anyone figure out if these scores and place were correct? Are we bitchin about the judge that was thrown out ... in this case?

thesemicullen
06-24-2014, 03:31 PM
You know how good your product is when it leaves your site. You have control over that. You don't know how good everyone else's is. Further, you're cooking against different teams at each contest, everyone's output is a bit different contest to contest, and judge's tastes are a bit different every contest - there are huge variables at each competition that you have very little control over.

Don Marco
06-24-2014, 03:50 PM
Take a look at KCBS's website.. contests for June 2007, compared to contests now in 2014. Then, 650-680 won. now, 680-708 win. a TOD score of 155 is more deadly now than what it was back then.


In my opinion, with the way most judges only use 7, 8 and 9 for scores, there is a lot of entries that gets higher scores than they should have.

Also, a lot of very good bbq doesnt receive as much as it deserves.
Look at the appearance score for example. The difference between a 7 or a 9 is about 5% of the total score. So, if a crappy box gets a 7 and an awesome box you put a lot of time and TLC into gets you only 5% more then thats just wrong.

Why not use the whole scale from 1 to 9 ?
Whats up with 6 being average ? How do you calibrate yourself to average barbecue ? Average backyard, restaurant or competition barbecue ?

DM

bbq.tom
06-25-2014, 08:41 AM
In my opinion, with the way most judges only use 7, 8 and 9 for scores, there is a lot of entries that gets higher scores than they should have.

Also, a lot of very good bbq doesnt receive as much as it deserves.
Look at the appearance score for example. The difference between a 7 or a 9 is about 5% of the total score. So, if a crappy box gets a 7 and an awesome box you put a lot of time and TLC into gets you only 5% more then thats just wrong.

Why not use the whole scale from 1 to 9 ?
Whats up with 6 being average ? How do you calibrate yourself to average barbecue ? Average backyard, restaurant or competition barbecue ?

DM

When judges do utilize the entire scale 2-9, it results in lower scores from that table resulting in the Table of Death! Can't have it both ways! That's why KCBS NEEDS to have "re-education" or refresher training for all judges to get them ALL using the same scale (2-9).

Don Marco
06-25-2014, 09:32 AM
Thats what i meant, Tom. All judges should get a notification about that, maybe right before a contest.

DM