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HolySmoke77
06-06-2014, 01:44 PM
I'm doing my first comp soon and would like to see what a good box of pork looks like? I've seen the worst boxes ever in another thread but need to see what a good one looks like now....what form of greens do I use? The comp I'm in is s simple non sanctioned event so I guess its not that crucial but I want to practice good for other comps.

Thanks!

Untraceable
06-06-2014, 01:46 PM
www.bbqcritic.com (http://www.bbqcritic.com)

Dex
06-06-2014, 04:23 PM
www.bbqcritic.com (http://www.bbqcritic.com)

this

Dex
06-06-2014, 04:24 PM
.... and not this....

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1.0-9/1001371_630825736942067_2100860687_n.jpg

bigdogphin
06-06-2014, 06:13 PM
A full box of meat

JeffR
06-06-2014, 06:23 PM
.... and not this....

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1.0-9/1001371_630825736942067_2100860687_n.jpg

Add some salad dressing to it and it might serve a purpose

toymaster
06-06-2014, 06:41 PM
https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1.0-9/1001371_630825736942067_2100860687_n.jpg

Must be the salad catagory...:caked:

Bubba
06-07-2014, 04:30 AM
here is one that scored 179.4400 got 2 8's on apperance

ModelMaker
06-07-2014, 06:59 AM
here is one that scored 179.4400 got 2 8's on apperance

Nice box, but I get the 8's. At the contest with a limited time to view and score it this well may have been a 9. However looking at it in my recliner I see some faults, the row in back varies in thickness from left to right. The slices on the left are thick, on the right they are thin yet they both appear to be the same muscle. The chunks are the bomb (excellent).
As a judge I will sample each type of meat as presented. Am I supposed to take 3 slices and a chunk? Can you count on each type of slice being excellent in taste and tenderness?
Still I would have loved to give it a whirl...
Ed

Big Mike
06-07-2014, 09:20 AM
Nice box Bubba.

There are only two types of meat presented; sliced and chunks, so you would take one slice and one chunk. If there were only three rows of sliced, you wouldn't take three slices.

Burnt at Both Endz
06-07-2014, 06:52 PM
Nice box, but I get the 8's. At the contest with a limited time to view and score it this well may have been a 9. However looking at it in my recliner I see some faults, the row in back varies in thickness from left to right. The slices on the left are thick, on the right they are thin yet they both appear to be the same muscle. The chunks are the bomb (excellent).
As a judge I will sample each type of meat as presented. Am I supposed to take 3 slices and a chunk? Can you count on each type of slice being excellent in taste and tenderness?
Still I would have loved to give it a whirl...
Ed

Agreed, there would be 4 pieces of meat on my judging card.

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-07-2014, 11:12 PM
Nice box, but I get the 8's. At the contest with a limited time to view and score it this well may have been a 9. However looking at it in my recliner I see some faults, the row in back varies in thickness from left to right. The slices on the left are thick, on the right they are thin yet they both appear to be the same muscle. The chunks are the bomb (excellent).
As a judge I will sample each type of meat as presented. Am I supposed to take 3 slices and a chunk? Can you count on each type of slice being excellent in taste and tenderness?
Still I would have loved to give it a whirl...
Ed

It's BS like this that makes people hate judges. WTF does anything you said have to do with Bbq?

This is the type of crap that keeps people from posting winning boxes.

I'll even say what others are thinking, no I won't.

bover
06-08-2014, 09:58 AM
It's BS like this that makes people hate judges. WTF does anything you said have to do with Bbq?

This is the type of crap that keeps people from posting winning boxes.

I'll even say what others are thinking, no I won't.

Have you ever judged? I'm with Modelmaker on this one. As a judge, we're kind of conditioned to look for the groups and grab one of each. To me, that box says I should have four pieces of meat on my tray for that entry. If that wasn't the intent of the cook, it should not have been presented that way.

JeffR
06-08-2014, 10:04 AM
Nice box, but I get the 8's. At the contest with a limited time to view and score it this well may have been a 9. However looking at it in my recliner I see some faults, the row in back varies in thickness from left to right. The slices on the left are thick, on the right they are thin yet they both appear to be the same muscle. The chunks are the bomb (excellent).
As a judge I will sample each type of meat as presented. Am I supposed to take 3 slices and a chunk? Can you count on each type of slice being excellent in taste and tenderness?
Still I would have loved to give it a whirl...
Ed

Really :shock: So if there were 12 slices in one row or 12 ribs (2 rows shingled) you would take two of each. With a pile of pulled, do you make sure to take a full 1/6 or a fork full to sample.

Thinking you are to take 3 slices is way off.

mobow
06-08-2014, 01:50 PM
First, that is a 9 for appearance in my opinion. Second, I would more than likely take a chunk and a slice. But, it would be perfectly acceptable for a judge to take several slices if that is what they wanted in order to be able to judge the box as presented. Kind of like if you turned in a box full of chunks. It would be perfectly acceptable to try several chunks. Keith

Roast Beast
06-08-2014, 02:13 PM
If that box were passed in front of me, I'd keep taking slices until someone slapped my hand away. Looks delicious.

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-08-2014, 04:36 PM
Have you ever judged? I'm with Modelmaker on this one. As a judge, we're kind of conditioned to look for the groups and grab one of each. To me, that box says I should have four pieces of meat on my tray for that entry. If that wasn't the intent of the cook, it should not have been presented that way.

Take as many pieces as you want. That is not the part that got under my skin.

Smokedelic
06-08-2014, 05:50 PM
As a judge I will sample each type of meat as presented. Am I supposed to take 3 slices and a chunk? Can you count on each type of slice being excellent in taste and tenderness?
Still I would have loved to give it a whirl...
Ed
Please tell us the 4 types of meat that you see in the box that makes you inclined to take 4 pieces?

pahutchens
06-08-2014, 06:44 PM
Take as many pieces as you want. That is not the part that got under my skin.

Would like to know what you meant...

Cooks may have time for a ruler, judges don't really do.
I score on an overall visual impression of the meat.
There is a lot of talk about judges that are picky for different reasons. I personally get more excited for real looking food not a Chinese stock picture menu look

I would have taken samples from each area.
recently judged where a few judges took 'a' sample while others took representative samples. depending on the row there were 9's and 7's

sslak
06-09-2014, 04:45 PM
If that box were passed in front of me, I'd keep taking slices until someone slapped my hand away. Looks delicious.

This guy has it.

HolySmoke77
06-09-2014, 09:23 PM
here is one that scored 179.4400 got 2 8's on apperance

Looks like it all MM in there..no pulled? Whats the secret in cooking the MM to look like this? WOW

RumRunner_1492
06-10-2014, 04:26 PM
Please tell us the 4 types of meat that you see in the box that makes you inclined to take 4 pieces?

I could see the confusion.

Vince RnQ
06-12-2014, 10:31 AM
Please tell us the 4 types of meat that you see in the box that makes you inclined to take 4 pieces?

Mike, I see 3 unique sets of slices (top, left & right) and a number of chunks in the center. That looks like 4 "types" of meat to sample. I understand that 3 of them are from the same section of a pork butt however, they all had to come from separate butts. Hell, some of the chunks look like they are actually chunked MM too.

I could understand a judge wanting to sample all four items presented.

On another note, it was good to see you last weekend. Best of luck and perhaps will have the good fortune to cross paths again this season!

Smokedelic
06-12-2014, 05:41 PM
Mike, I see 3 unique sets of slices (top, left & right) and a number of chunks in the center. That looks like 4 "types" of meat to sample. I understand that 3 of them are from the same section of a pork butt however, they all had to come from separate butts. Hell, some of the chunks look like they are actually chunked MM too.

I could understand a judge wanting to sample all four items presented.

On another note, it was good to see you last weekend. Best of luck and perhaps will have the good fortune to cross paths again this season!
Likewise, Vince, always good to catch up!

Using your philosophy, if you were presented a rib box with 2 rows of 4 ribs, and they were obviously from different racks, would you take one from each row?

http://www.bbqcritic.com/uploads/2/8/5/4/2854592/7473928.jpg?633
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mchar69
06-12-2014, 05:54 PM
I would just take that whole rib box and leave!

Burnt at Both Endz
06-12-2014, 06:55 PM
Likewise, Vince, always good to catch up!

Using your philosophy, if you were presented a rib box with 2 rows of 4 ribs, and they were obviously from different racks, would you take one from each row?

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I have had a rib box that had "6" BB's and "6" spares, three of the judges took both entries, which included me.

I think the problem with your rib box is that it doesn't appear to a judge that the cook "intended/hoped" that the judges would take a sample of a "set".

Personally, when I look at that pork box, it's telling me that the cook was spot on with his pork and was willing to "show off" that expertise with the judges.

Oh, by the way, nice looking ribs.

Smokedelic
06-12-2014, 07:15 PM
Oh, by the way, nice looking ribs.
Thanks....but stock photo. I cant cook ribs that look like that.:wink:

Vince RnQ
06-12-2014, 09:10 PM
Likewise, Vince, always good to catch up!

Using your philosophy, if you were presented a rib box with 2 rows of 4 ribs, and they were obviously from different racks, would you take one from each row?

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Excellent question, Mike! Strict application of that logic would require a "Yes" answer but, since I understand the difference between the two types of entries and, based upon the fact that there are only 8 ribs in that box, I would be inclined to only take one rib. That having been said, I would have no problem taking two ribs if I knew that each of my fellow judges could do the same.

The difference with the pork box we are talking about is that there is clearly enough meat there for each judge to take a sample of everything and so there really isn't any good reason not to take a slice from each MM section and a single chunk. The cook put it in there so it must be good, right?

Eggspert
06-13-2014, 08:59 PM
It is really frustrating as a cook to hear judges post about slices in one group being slightly thicker than the other group. Really???? I was taught that as I judge you should score appearance by the simple question, "does it look like something you want to eat?" Does the slices not being exactly the same really affect how good it looks to eat? As a judge you should be looking at if you think the food looks like you want to eat it. Not . . . Hmmm what can I find wrong with it. That box looks great and you would get 9's all day long from me as a judge and a cook. Judges, do you really want perfect looking food? Is that really what BBQ should be? I don't want you to reward slop in a box, but . . . a good looking box with juicy meat, neatly laid out, and cleanly sliced deserves a 9.

Eggspert

Elancer
06-13-2014, 09:55 PM
A 9 should mean the entry was excellent, but some mistakenly believe it should only get a 9 if it's "perfect"!!

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-13-2014, 09:56 PM
It is really frustrating as a cook to hear judges post about slices in one group being slightly thicker than the other group. Really???? I was taught that as I judge you should score appearance by the simple question, "does it look like something you want to eat?" Does the slices not being exactly the same really affect how good it looks to eat? As a judge you should be looking at if you think the food looks like you want to eat it. Not . . . Hmmm what can I find wrong with it. That box looks great and you would get 9's all day long from me as a judge and a cook. Judges, do you really want perfect looking food? Is that really what BBQ should be? I don't want you to reward slop in a box, but . . . a good looking box with juicy meat, neatly laid out, and cleanly sliced deserves a 9.

Eggspert

Thanks for saying that. some times I get inarticulately pissed off. I'll just +1 what you said.

ModelMaker
06-14-2014, 07:13 AM
Thanks for saying that. some times I get inarticulately pissed off. I'll just +1 what you said.

It is really frustrating as a cook to hear judges post about slices in one group being slightly thicker than the other group. Really???? I was taught that as I judge you should score appearance by the simple question, "does it look like something you want to eat?" Does the slices not being exactly the same really affect how good it looks to eat? As a judge you should be looking at if you think the food looks like you want to eat it. Not . . . Hmmm what can I find wrong with it. That box looks great and you would get 9's all day long from me as a judge and a cook. Judges, do you really want perfect looking food? Is that really what BBQ should be? I don't want you to reward slop in a box, but . . . a good looking box with juicy meat, neatly laid out, and cleanly sliced deserves a 9.

Eggspert


I'm guessing y'all chose to skip over my compliments of "Nice box" and
"I'd love to give it a whirl". I'm pretty sure in the judges tent this entry would have seen a 9 from me. But with all the time in the world to look at it, there are flaws and I was just saying if the 2 judges that called this entry "very good (8)" saw the same things, that "I get it"
As I pointed out each row of sliced pork varies in thickness, the one piece on the left row has a hanger showing a poor cut, the fanning of the back row is inconsistent in placement as well as even cuts.

The catagory we're judging here is appearance. If you as a cook want a score of "excellent (9)" you better provide excellent or you could get a score of just "very good (8)".
Knife skills and box building are indeed part of the appearance score not just great looking meat.

If your of the opinion it's a "meat contest" not a "beauty pageant" then next contest take your 6 perfectly cooked ribs and drop them in the box and see where that goes.
Ed

DR
06-14-2014, 09:12 AM
Well here is my 2 cents worth. Since you cant use fractions you are handcuffed. I am a bbq judge as well as a judge in several other competitive events from rodeo, show horses, and fitness competitions. Judging bbq can be the hardest because there are no fractions used and it's not comparative judging. If you could assign a 8.75 it would be much easier but you can't. With that tight of a scoring range, you have to look for any flaw you can or else you will give out several 9's. After judging other events, I can find a few key flaws in BBQ judging. Taste also needs more standardizations to make it a level playing field but that's a whole other topic.

To the OP. That is an amazing looking box and the number of meats to me is irrelevant. The ONLY thing I could count you down on would be the inconsistent slices in the back row. Don't get me wrong, this is as close to perfection as you can get. I would be torn between an 8 and a 9. Please keep in mind that IN MY OPININ it's an 8.75 but I can't use fractions so I am torn but closer to a 9 than an 8.

Also everyone that is complaining about judging, keep in mind that it's all personal opinion and that is what that judges opinion is. It's not wrong, it's an opinion.

A lot of this could be more consistant if we had a bigger range to judge from and more standardizations but for now this is what we have to go by. DR

Fat Freddy
06-14-2014, 11:57 AM
Don't get me wrong, this is as close to perfection as you can get. I would be torn between an 8 and a 9.

Also everyone that is complaining about judging, keep in mind that it's all personal opinion and that is what that judges opinion is. It's not wrong, it's an opinion.
DR

I understand what you are saying and not wanting to disagree on the little things but in KCBS a 9 is for excellent, not perfect. If excellent and perfect to you is the same thing then I understand your issue between 8-9. To me perfect and excellent are different. I would give a 9 for a perfect entry but would also give a 9 for excellent. Another way of thinking it is a total category score of 180. Every team wants that. You can get a 180 if 5 judges give you all 9's even if the 6th judge gives all 7's= to me that would be excellent...But if all 6 judges give you 9's it is a PERFECT 180. So thats why i say excellent and perfect are not the same but both deserve a 9.

As for some of what Model maker is saying, I know Ed personally and I know he takes judging very seriously. I wont and cant speak for him but I get what he was trying to say. As a judge you get 10-15 seconds(roughly) if even that long, to look at a box as the table captain is showing it and decide an appearance score. Sitting at home on the computer you could stare and look at it indefinitely. Much easier to find the most miniscule details wrong, maybe the judge that gave it an 8 noticed something slightly off(the cut) or while the judge would be wrong, perhaps this presentation was different that the judge just didnt care for it. As for me i would be proud to turn that box in every time and even after looking at it several times can find NOTHING wrong with it. The cuts are much better than mine are on my best day.

As cooks we want better judges and judges to take things more seriously and while I havent always agreed with some of what ModelMaker has posted, I do understand he says what he does because of his love of comp BBQ from a judges perspective. i wish KCBS had more judges like Ed who will hold himself accountable for the way he judges and explain why. Thats ultimately how we all become better cooks.