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Ashmont
07-10-2006, 05:26 PM
I had a question about a Kids'Q Disqualification. If a Kids'Q turned in a box of hamburgers that were cut in half to make the required 4 pieces for the box. Would that be marking?


Ashmont

Solidkick
07-10-2006, 07:14 PM
We've always been told that the cutting will be done by the judges.....so we turn in as a whole..... I know Chick'N'Pig's son has turned in one big burger, so the judges would have to cut it to score it. If it was not spelled out before hand, I'm afraid it would be hard to enforce a DQ.....

Jeff_in_KC
07-10-2006, 07:28 PM
Ash, my opinion is that DQing a child defeats the entire purpose of a Kids Q contest. The point is to get them interested in the "sport" so to ensure the contests continue into the future. These kids ARE the future of the BBQ circuit. In my opinion, it would take a grievous and blatant error to warrant ANY disqualification in a Kids Q. Score 'em down but don't break their hearts by DQing them.

Smoker
07-10-2006, 08:39 PM
I'm not a parent, I don't play one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. That being said, kids need to experience the real world. Sometimes life won't be fair and they might as well learn it. I'm not sure what the rule states but if they consider that marking, then they get DQed.

It's like disciplining a child. My sister does not believe in discipline so her kid keeps doing the same things wrong. He goes into someones house and will pick up anything he wants. He will usually break it. He's not allowed back in many houses. He is 8 years old and is in for a big surprise when the real world hits him in the face. My other sisters kids have been disciplined from day one. They know the difference between right and wrong. They know that making a mistake has consequences. They will have an easier time hitting adulthood. If the kid was DQed, explain why and make a lesson of it. Let them know the rules were accidentally broken and ask them what they learned.

Jeff_in_KC
07-10-2006, 09:02 PM
I'm not a parent, I don't play one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. That being said, kids need to experience the real world. Sometimes life won't be fair and they might as well learn it. I'm not sure what the rule states but if they consider that marking, then they get DQed.

It's like disciplining a child. My sister does not believe in discipline so her kid keeps doing the same things wrong. He goes into someones house and will pick up anything he wants. He will usually break it. He's not allowed back in many houses. He is 8 years old and is in for a big surprise when the real world hits him in the face. My other sisters kids have been disciplined from day one. They know the difference between right and wrong. They know that making a mistake has consequences. They will have an easier time hitting adulthood. If the kid was DQed, explain why and make a lesson of it. Let them know the rules were accidentally broken and ask them what they learned.

In the 11 to 15 year old age group, I'd agree with you. In the 5 to 10 year old group, I strongly disagree. It's like the youth leagues where the younger ones don't have score kept. they're just learning WHAT a contest is all about. By the time they reach age eleven, let them learn how to COMPETE.

Smoker
07-10-2006, 10:20 PM
"It's like the youth leagues where the younger ones don't have score kept". Are those the same kids doing the new math where it doesn't matter that they don't get the right answers? Well I hope those kids are not designing the planes I fly in.

I remember being in Little League and we always kept score. I learned you win some, you lose some. One of the first things I learned when becoming a flight instructor was something called "The law of Primacy".

http://www.laubach-on.ca/Trainingpost/talphand2.htm

"First impressions are the most lasting. This means that those first lessons are all-important."

Thats why the lessons learned in a child's first few years are extremely important. I don't believe in any of this new fangled pc cr@p the school systems are forcing down our throats. It's creating nothing but a new generation of cry babies.

Keeping this on topic, I'm sure the kid that was DQed knows that his cooking was not for nought as he honed his skills, maybe made some new friends and hopefully learned one of lifes lessons.

P.S. I think all this has made me realize I want children. I'm gonna go tell my wife the good news!!!!

Smoker
07-10-2006, 10:22 PM
Off to the hospital to get stiched up. Damn curling irons hurt!!!!!!

HoDeDo
07-10-2006, 10:25 PM
In the 11 to 15 year old age group, I'd agree with you. In the 5 to 10 year old group, I strongly disagree. It's like the youth leagues where the younger ones don't have score kept. they're just learning WHAT a contest is all about. By the time they reach age eleven, let them learn how to COMPETE.

I agree with Jeff - having said that -- these kids ques typically aren't as structured as the adult contests. They can change - even at the last minute: times/ days they are done ( fri vs. sat) etc, they are rarely the same at two contests. In addition, you could be cooking steaks provided by the organizers, or providing your own wings or burgers.... some are kids choice. The point is.... things vary. They usually share the garnish rules, and container rules. Typically it is "anything goes", but some follow KCBS.

TO ANSWER THE ORIGINAL QUESTION ABOUT CUTTING THE MEAT -- KCBS states that kids dont have to cut thier turn-in's unless they choose to. Since knives are sharp, it is parental discression as to if the kids get to cut. It is up to the kids if they want thier turn in cut. Cutting it into portions is not required. Also, since many kids ques are hamburgers, the KCBS reps typically note that cutting up a burger would ruin a presentation of a nicely grillmarked, and expertly seared piece of meat. They do not want to hamper the presentation, or drive parents to have to buy enough meat to make six burgers to keep them "whole" .

As a dad, I told my 5 yr old that cutting her burger up would allow all the yummy juices to run out, and it could be dry - " kinda like how you dont like it after it sits cut up" -- she turned in 3 whole ones, for the judges to split as they see fit.

Hope that helps!

BrooklynQ
07-10-2006, 11:19 PM
I've never seen a Kid's Q event and I don't know what the rules are - but I would imagine that the rules at the 5 year old level are easier and less stringent than at the 11 year old level. As they should be.

Having said that, I think it would be fair to DQ a 5 year old, if the rules are violated and that's the pre-determined result. I agree with Steve, that even a 5 year old needs to know that if you break the rules, you are penalized.

DQ may be too strong a punishment at 5 - but certainly a reduction in score. I know that when my kids were in school, in the lower grades they got points off their homework, reports etc, if the headings weren't right. By the time they were in 4th grade, it was a massive reduction in grade. And by 8th grade the work was rejected whole as incompelete.

Jeff_in_KC
07-10-2006, 11:25 PM
The point of youth leagues at ages 4-6 is not to teach them competitiveness, which you can't teach a person... either they have it or they don't. The point is to teach them HOW to play. Same goes for the Kids Q's... you're teaching them HOW to play... how to cook... how to make a box attractive... how to be safe in doing the whole process... and hopefully to get them to enjoy it and want to continue over the years. Who wants to sit there and see a five year old broken hearted because all the other kids get to go up and get a participant ribbon and they don't get anything? Yeah, they messed up but you know what? In MOST cases, it's actually the PARENT who caused the DQ in the first place. Why punish a kid for that?


"It's like the youth leagues where the younger ones don't have score kept". Are those the same kids doing the new math where it doesn't matter that they don't get the right answers? Well I hope those kids are not designing the planes I fly in.

I remember being in Little League and we always kept score. I learned you win some, you lose some. One of the first things I learned when becoming a flight instructor was something called "The law of Primacy".

http://www.laubach-on.ca/Trainingpost/talphand2.htm

"First impressions are the most lasting. This means that those first lessons are all-important."

Thats why the lessons learned in a child's first few years are extremely important. I don't believe in any of this new fangled pc cr@p the school systems are forcing down our throats. It's creating nothing but a new generation of cry babies.

Keeping this on topic, I'm sure the kid that was DQed knows that his cooking was not for nought as he honed his skills, maybe made some new friends and hopefully learned one of lifes lessons.

P.S. I think all this has made me realize I want children. I'm gonna go tell my wife the good news!!!!

BrooklynQ
07-10-2006, 11:45 PM
Yeah, they messed up but you know what? In MOST cases, it's actually the PARENT who caused the DQ in the first place. Why punish a kid for that?

Jeff - you just rasied one of my largest peeves about parents and kids in contests. It doesn't matter what the contest is. I'd say about 70 - 80 precent of the time the parent does the work.

I don't help my kids in contests. If it's supposed to be a fourth grade science project - let the fourth graders do it. Same with the Kid's Q. With the exception of any dangerous activities, it should be the kid all the way.

If the parent is involved at ALL, the kid should be disqualified.

Jeff_in_KC
07-10-2006, 11:54 PM
Jeff - you just rasied one of my largest peeves about parents and kids in contests. It doesn't matter what the contest is. I'd say about 70 - 80 precent of the time the parent does the work.

I don't help my kids in contests. If it's supposed to be a fourth grade science project - let the fourth graders do it. Same with the Kid's Q. With the exception of any dangerous activities, it should be the kid all the way.

If the parent is involved at ALL, the kid should be disqualified.

You're right, Robert... We make Taylor do everything except for knife work and we're starting to teach her how to handle one with a small, very dull paring knife. She "helps" mom trim garnish while mom is putting together our turn-in boxes. She builds her own turn-in box, seasons the meat, puts on the grill or smoker, turns, removes, picks the ones she wants in the box and puts them in how she thinks looks neat. We have to keep her on task at that age but she does it all. I know andy even lets his daughter invent her own sprays for her meat. That's pretty cool!

At Platte City, we had the contest rep tell a grandfather no less than three times to let the little kid do the work. You're right. it's frustrating and a crock that the parents try to do the work when the rules specifically say they can't. Why not DQ the adult's KCBS team for breaking contest rules? They can DQ you for failing to obey the contest specified quiet hours. Why not this?

BrooklynQ
07-10-2006, 11:56 PM
Why not DQ the adult's KCBS team for breaking contest rules? They can DQ you for failing to obey the contest specified quiet hours. Why not this?

That's a great solution. Smack the parents.

HoDeDo
07-11-2006, 08:56 AM
That's a great solution. Smack the parents.
I think 9 time out of 10 - if the parent is helping the kid, the kid is begging them to back off anyway. I know my daughter would sear my hand if I got close to her food, and she's only 5. My job is to open and shut the grill lid that she can't lift safely. :-D Once she is big enough to do that, I doubt she'll let me in the ring at all. We make a big deal out of the "do it yourself" thing though. She makes her own rub - gets to choose stuff from the cabinet, mix and taste,.... makes her own spray/baste. At Platte - she chose cherry coke and apple juice. Not my first choice, but it worked for her. I offered up my "cider squirt" and she punted it.

I do think that if the parents allow themselves to do too much (pinewood derby dad mod) that they should be disqualified. It isnt fair to the kids to try to insert too much help.

some pics of how I think it should go <doting dad mod>:
2927

2928

2929

HoDeDo
07-11-2006, 09:00 AM
Off to the hospital to get stiched up. Damn curling irons hurt!!!!!!
OUCH LMAO!!!!!

Jeff_in_KC
07-11-2006, 09:22 AM
I think Taylor was happier with the 5th place since the ribbon was pink! :roll:

Smoker
07-11-2006, 10:40 AM
Great pics Jeff. Rob is right, smack the parents.

smokincracker
07-11-2006, 11:59 AM
Kids Qs are a good thing.
This is my little Smokin' Cracker in Plant City, FL
He got a Grand before me.

I think to judge a kids Q right.
You should judge the process and the product.
Give a trophy for the best Kids Q Qer based on cleanliness, safety and overall attitude. This will help the kids learn and want to learn the right way to do things.

Just my two crackers worth.....

Jeff_in_KC
07-11-2006, 12:19 PM
That's awesome, Jimmy! Great photos!

ModelMaker
07-11-2006, 02:36 PM
Andy, what precious children, whos are they by the way. I've met you!!
ModelMaker
See ya down the pike..

Chick'n Pig BBQ
07-11-2006, 05:35 PM
I think the kids Q should be a kids Q and not a Mother/Father Q. What a disappointment for the kids that do this by the rules to see others cheating. I have seen this happen at alot of competitions.

This is my son Samuel 9yrs receiving Reserve Grand Champion at Sedalia MO.
He is proud because he did it all himself.
I bet the kids that don't do the Q by themselves are not nearly as excited as those that do.

HoDeDo
07-11-2006, 06:35 PM
Andy, what precious children, whos are they by the way. I've met you!!
ModelMaker
See ya down the pike..

OUCH! They have more of thier mom's genes, thank God. Although, if they looked like me I wouldnt have to worry about them dating until they were 30 :eusa_clap

Jeff_in_KC
07-11-2006, 09:06 PM
Holy cow, Samuel was excited!!! That was the funniest thing but it also brought a tear to my eye to see a kid so thrilled with what he was doing. He sure earned that, Skip!

BrooklynQ
07-11-2006, 09:57 PM
Great pictures guys! Thanks for posting them.

HoDeDo
07-11-2006, 10:09 PM
Samuel has been doing great this year. Glad he's enjoying it so much. Kaylin sure has been. Until this last weekend, she was on her way to eclipse my winnings! (haha!) It fun to watch them in action.