To inject or not to inject?

[CTSmokehouse]

I've been queing for 10 plus years and am preparing for my first BBQ competition in August. I've been tweeking recipes and trying new techniques. I have an extensive BBQ library and have been reading up on injecting techniques and injecting solutions. I've been lurking in this forum for some time and am looking for some input. Whether it be Fab B, Fab P, Tender Quick and Peach Nectar, BHM-20, Chris Lilly's injection baste and variations thereof... does injecting make that much of a difference vs. adding sauce and rub at the end to the pulled or sliced product? Is there an advantage to injecting Pork Butt, Brisket or even Chicken? Does it change the texture noticably? Is it healthy? Does it deviate greatly from traditional Q? What are the best injectors? Is it the exception or the norm in competition? These are questions that I hope to find answers to...

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

[kcquer]

Cliff, Butts are definitely injection material. I've not had as much success with brisket so far, but I think I haven't tried the right stuff yet.

With chicken, brining is sufficient for my at home cooking tastes.

With both, the big advantage is starting out with more moisture in the meat at the beginning of the process so you end up with a juicier finished product. Both brining of birds and injecting larger cuts, allow for the introduction of additional flavors that surface rubs just can't match.

Both processes are worthy of some experimenting to see what you like, but to me they're definitely worth it. In fact the next time I do ribs, I think I'm going to try brining them, it's been succesful with everything else I've tried, should work for ribs too.

[chad]

I believe it makes a difference.

We've gone from off the chart on our brisket to a second and a fifth in our last two competitions - we believe the injection has made the difference.

I regularly inject pork butts at home and when catering.

[The_Kapn]

I believe it makes a difference.

We've gone from off the chart on our brisket to a second and a fifth in our last two competitions - we believe the injection has made the difference.

I regularly inject pork butts at home and when catering.

Cliff,
Ditto what Dave says :lol:

Take a look at the RoadMap at the top of Q-Talk for some historical info, if you have not done so.
Post #23 = DRBBQ's input
Post #25 = Big Bob Gibson's recipie
Post #33 = Several references and Jim Minion's input on FAB

Guys will add in more thoughts here.

Tradition? Things change and evolve. I do whatever works best and tastes best. Winning helps validate quality for us.

Do competetors use it? I would guess that the majority do inject. Based on unscientific observation.

The only answers that will matter to you are the ones you get from trying it and decideing for yourself.

TIM

[jsmoker]

I'll tack on a question since it's germaine to the topic.... Does injecting speed up the cooking time on butts or briskets? I've heard both 'yes' and 'no'. I'm Qing for the day after my sister's wedding and I'm thinking about injecting my butts (ouch!), but if it's going to change my cook times, I'll need to factor that in.

Muchas grassyass!!!

[Jeff_in_KC]

You mentioned Tender Quick... do not ever inject that stuff unless you want a cured brisket!! I expect some people do use it as an ingredient in their injections but unless you know the stuff well and what it does to meat, I'd avoid it. It is used quite a lot to enhance smoke ring by rubbing it onto the meat surface but if you don't get it rinsed off thoroughly, it could ruin your meat!

As far as injections go, I tried Chris Lilly's pork injection and didn't have much success with it. Try Ray's Big Time Pork Injection. I like it better. The advantage of injecting pork butts is that you're getting another layer of flavor deep into the meat where rubs and smoke will never reach. I try to separate muscles (not completely, just "open it up") as much as possible to allow more contact of rub and smoke.

I use Fab B occasionally but not as it calls for. I agree with HoDeDo that it seems to dry out a brisket a bit. I use less of it and mix with beef broth and a bit of water and then pour that into my regular injection before pumping that sucker full (thanks to Tim and Dave for the "more is better" idea on injections). I have never tried Fab P nor do I ever intend to. As for injecting chicken, I wouldn't bother. Especially at a contest where 90% of the meat cooked is thighs. Dark meat obviously is more moist than white and I even quit brining thighs... no need. I simply marinate them overnight in a ZipLoc XL bag in the cooler then apply rub both on and under the skin before cooking. If your marinade is a good one, injection isn't necessary in the bird.

I know this is getting long but I wanted to touch on a couple other questions you asked...

Is injecting the "norm" at contests? From my limited experience and the people I've talked to, I believe it is. I always do it.

Best injectors? I don't know brands but I know what I have that I don't like. It's just a cheapo plastic bodied injector. When I buy a new one, it will be both larger in capacity AND have a much longer needle. With the short needle, you can't push in far and draw it slowly back out over a good distance on the meat so you end up poking more holes in the meat than you really should.

[CTSmokehouse]

The Tender Quick reference was part of Myron's Grand World Champion Peach Injection from Mike Mills' Peace, Love and Barbeque. On pages 186 and 187 Myron Mixon and Jack's Old south are featured. The recipe is: 1/2 cup Morton Tender Quick, 3 quarts water and 1 quart peach nectar. The picture shows Myron injecting shoulders with some of his "magic potion" using a brine pump. I have experienced Tender Quick and quckly turned pork chops into a salty gelatinous inedible mess. It says that you can't overinject and can add spices or oils. Mike Mills uses something called BHM-20 from Townsend Suppy in Oxford, Arkansas. Has anybody used this? I have Dr. BBQ's book and his Big Pig Pork Injection appears to be a variation of Chris Lilly's Big Bob Gibson's Grand world Championship Pork Shoulder injection baste. I suspect that the pineapple juice has some papain in it and acts as a tenderizer. I really appreciate the input. The roadmap references were expecially interesting and helpful. I will not be lurking any longer. This is a great forum! I know what I'll be doing this weekend.

Thanks.

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

[FatDad]

Not to be a critic but Myron lost in Corpus Christi.
Just watched it tonight on the food channel.
They said it was too sweet.
He injected his brisquet so much that it was flowing
off the table.
He had an apple juice/pinapple juice base and he cooked at
a high temp of 325/375 for a short period and then foiled
it.
On his presentation, he took a few slices he made and basted them with
his injection mix and that screwed him.

Just my opinion....

[Jeff_in_KC]

Myron's brisket must always taste different. At the GAB ,they used a vinegar based sauce on it for turn in and when his partner brought us a slice, I thought it was tender and moist but tasted farkin' whacky. Figured we had him beat but he scored 161.7 points with it and finished 19 places ahead of us in brisket. Farkin' five hour briskets... go figure!

[chad]

For the record, Myron Mixon does not use TQ in his injections or rubs at competition and it wasn't used at the cook school last summer.

He never sweats the brisket...often he'll only do one. He competes in all formats and is always trying "new" things.

He does always inject though! And yes, he injects to the point of juice running everywhere -- that's the point! Saturate the cut of meat. Most times the chicken and the ribs are marinated/brined overnight, too.

As to "losing" in the Challenge - it was TV - we all fight the battle of flavors for the judges, but don't normally get to hear the judges "think out loud"...I kind of liked the "mystery" meat and the "draw your cooker out of a jar" concept. It just shows that those guys and gals can cook with whatever they are given...that's a goal I aspire to! I've heard tales from two of the competitors and one of the judges!! It was good TV and I'm going to record the Challenge Marathon on Monday just to finally see ALL the shows.

I'll conclude with: Actually, the brisket is 4 hours :shock: and then rests for about 5 hours. 4 hour brisket ROCKS!! :-D

Disclaimer: These are just my observations and thoughts...obviously everyone has their own view of what's "correct" and "good" in que.

[Jeff_in_KC]

I take it you've had good experience with it, Dave?

[chad]

I take it you've had good experience with it, Dave?

Well, yeah, pretty good success.

We've managed a 2nd and 5th the last two times out with out brisket. And, the last couple I've done at home were excellent.

I just did a huge load of injected pork and had everything in the coolers in just over 7 hours.

[butt head]

i inject my briskets with buffalo scauce

[kickassbbq]

I am in the process this afternoon of making up my own injection marinade for my 5 hour Butts this weekend.
I am goping to call it Crazy Ed's Old Time Jism Juice!!!!!!
I wonder if it will sell?
Smoke On!!!!!!

[Jeff_in_KC]

You're a sick farker, Ed...

[spicewine]

IMO Pork butt needs a deep flavor boost to round it out, however we do not inject the Brisket. I have injected chicken and done OK .( Hit and Miss) Sometimes 2nd place, sometimes 20th place same product.

[CTSmokehouse]

I am intrigued with the concept of 4 hour Brisket. Could anyone explain the process? I am accustomed to smoking full briskets ala Willingham or Goode.

Thanks.

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

5 hour Butt sounds good too..

[kickassbbq]

Jeff,
Thank You!!! Coming from, that's a compliment!!!!
PARTY
Smoke On!!!!!!!!!!!! Getting me needle ready!!!!!!!!!!

[The_Kapn]

I am intrigued with the concept of 4 hour Brisket. Could anyone explain the process? I am accustomed to smoking full briskets ala Willingham or Goode.

Thanks.

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

5 hour Butt sounds good too..

Cliff--most of us who do it inject heavily. Not saying that is necessary, we just did it before and do it now.
Avoid sugar in rubs, it will shure nuf' burn at these temps.
We cook at 300-350 till the temps/ probe feel are right.
No magic here.
Works fine for us, but not for everyone.
Try it-make up your own mind.
It is just a $15 chunk of meat :lol:

TIM

[CTSmokehouse]

Thanks Tim,

This has been a thought provoking experience. It has given me some ideas of things to try e.g. beef stock or demi glace injection. Has it been tried?

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

[bigabyte]

I was paying close attention to this thread because I did not do good in my first ever KCBS turn in for pork. I have had about a dozen different people try this recipe and they all like it a lot. Now I know that there are a lot of good cooks at contests, but my low score did not mesh up with the reviews I was getting on my pork at all. I even had some people taste it asking them to be very criticval of it. They like it. I injected it with a flavorful inject with a good amount of sweet. I was wondering if anybody thinks that perhaps it was too flavorful perhaps? I dunno. Any advice is appreciated. My inject was based on the Chris Lilly inject (or so I understand), but I added more flavor to it than the orignial suggestion. I figure presentation and tenderness could not be the sole cause of the low score, obviously taste must have been a factor.
Just a little bugged by it I guess. Clay will be chuckling at this post I'm sure!:lol: I think he's been figthing this battle some time now.
How important do the KC folks think it is to include slices? Could that be it?

[Jeff_in_KC]

How important do the KC folks think it is to include slices? Could that be it?

let me just say this... pulled pork... scored horrible in 5 contests in a row. Then we chop and put slices on top the last two and:

29th of 217
5th of 44

That tells me to definitely slice around here.

[BrooklynQ]

let me just say this... pulled pork... scored horrible in 5 contests in a row. Then we chop and put slices on top the last two and:

29th of 217
5th of 44

That tells me to definitely slice around here.

Jeff - i found that if a cook includes both sliced and pulled, one of them sucks. Go with whatever is better. Just my exeperience. Your mileage obviously varies. - Robert

[CTSmokehouse]

I just injected my first Butt. It was a thoroughly interesting (and messy)experience. Thanks to Jeff in KC I'm trying Dr. BBQ's pork injection, rub and sauce. I'm also doing ribs and chicken. Cooking for a crowd. Let you know the outcome of "To inject or not to inject?"

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

[Ron_L]

I injected two picnics last night, Cliff. You're right, it can be messy. My injector has holes in a few spots along the needle, and I always forget about the top hole and pull the needle out too far and send a stream of liquid across the kitchen. Apparently the dog remembers that hole because she always seems to be in the right place to lick up the mess!

I used a mixture of apple juice, cider vinegar, worcestershier sauce, honey and rub. It smelled great. I'll see how it tastes in a few hours!

[kickassbbq]

My injected Butts are on the smoker at 350!!!! Gonna take em' off after 5 hours and see if'n they is good n' done.
PARTY!!!!!!!!!!!
Smoke On!!!!!
http://www.kickassbbq.com/largepic.php?img=350.JPG&category=Quick%20Cook%20Boston%20Butt

[Double D's BBQ]

Cook em to an internal temp of 190 Ed rather than by time. They may be done before or after 5 hours. Then cover with an aluminum foil tent and let them rest for several hours (at least 3).

[bbqpigskin]

I'd like to try injecting some time, but my pulled pork comes out prety damned good without injecting!

[Ron_L]

My injected Butts are on the smoker at 350!!!! Gonna take em' off after 5 hours and see if'n they is good n' done.
PARTY!!!!!!!!!!!
Smoke On!!!!!
http://www.kickassbbq.com/largepic.php?img=350.JPG&category=Quick%20Cook%20Boston%20Butt

I tried almost the same thing, Ed! Great minds think alike :-D

I did mine at 300 (about...) and they hit 190 internal in 6 1/2 hours (each one was 8 1/2 lbs). When I took them out of the cooker to foil they were just dripping with juice. I wrapped them in double foil with some pre-heated apple juice and they are in the holding cooler now. Pictures to follow.

[The_Kapn]

I tried almost the same thing, Ed! Great minds think alike :-D

I did mine at 300 (about...) and they hit 190 internal in 6 1/2 hours (each one was 8 1/2 lbs). When I took them out of the cooker to foil they were just dripping with juice. I wrapped them in double foil with some pre-heated apple juice and they are in the holding cooler now. Pictures to follow.

Ron--Pretty amazing, huh? :lol:

Let us know how they taste.

TIM

[CTSmokehouse]

The answer : To inject or not to inject? is ... Yes! I did a full injected Butt smoked with sticks of aged shag bark hickory and apple wood on the Bandera. The weather really cooperated. It was the first time I injected. It was fall apart moist and tender with a 1/2 inch smoke ring. It took 8 hours. I took it out at 195 degrees . I did not add sauce or rub because it already had alot of flavor. I would have done better if I had allowed more time for the bark to develop. I followed the directions and wrapped at 160. Next time I will go by my instincts rather that by instrument. We had baby backs 3 ways. Two were sauced and one dry. I like ribs dry but don't know if they would win in comp. They were Memphis style and just taste better to me and the crowd. Next weekend is Brisket (Father's Day you know). The BBQ Dr.'s injection, rub and sauce are very good. This has been a great experience.

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

[Ron_L]

Cliff... I'm glad that your butt came out well!

Ron--Pretty amazing, huh? :lol:

Let us know how they taste.

TIM

Yes, it pretty amazing! I saw your post and a coupl eof posts from Chad talking about 7 hour butts, so I decided to try it.

I injected two 8 1/2 lb picnics last night with a mix of AJ, cider vinegar, worcestershire, honey and rub. This morning I took them out of the fridge and rubbed them with John Henry Cherry Chipotle and let them sit while I built the fire and got the cooker ready. I put the picnics into a 300 degree cooker at 8:30 this morning. The temp help very close to 300 for the whole cook (I added a couple of splits of apple and some additional lump about 5 hours into the cook). Since I was trying for a relative short cook, I decided not to foil. I simply left the meat alone until i was about 6 hours into the cook, then I checked the internal temp with my ThermaPen. Both picnics were at 180-ish internal, so I gave them a little longer. I checked the temp again in several spots and they were both at 190, so I pulled them at 3:00pm, after 6 1/2 hours. When I went to lift them off of the grates and put them on a sheet of foil the juices were gushing out. I wrapped them in double HD foil along with 1/2 cup or preheated AJ and then two beach towels and stuck them into a pre-heated cooler for holding until dinner.

I took them out of the cooler at 6:45 and they were still too hot to touch.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/Ron_L/Good-One%20Cooker/IMG_1339.jpg

The bones slipped out cleanly and the meat was extremely moist. I tasted some of the meat without any furhter doctoring and it had a very good flavor. The bark was great! I could really taste the cherry chipotle rub. I pulled both picnics and mixed in some AJ and vinegar-based finishing sauce and we ate pulled pork sammies with slaw and beans. Yum-o!

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/Ron_L/Good-One%20Cooker/IMG_1340.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/Ron_L/Good-One%20Cooker/IMG_1341.jpg

So... inject or not? I say inject, but I also violated one of my cardinal rules about experimenting. I changed two variable at once. I injected, and I cooked hotter and faster. I guess I'll have to do another experiment and change only one variable! :-D

[The_Kapn]

Ron--great report :lol:

Only thing I would add is-----if you are a "foiler", just do it when the color is right. Normally around 160-170, but....

Strictly up to you.

We like to stop the bark color somewhere around there.

TIM

[3970010]

I know this is an old post but what about the streaking that sometimes comes with injecting briskets. I injected at a competition a couple of weekends ago and I really liked the taste but it left brown streaks in my slices. That was the first time I injected. I want to do it some more but I cant have streaks in my turnin slices. Any more thought on this subject?

[MilitantSquatter]

I know this is an old post but what about the streaking that sometimes comes with injecting briskets. I injected at a competition a couple of weekends ago and I really liked the taste but it left brown streaks in my slices. That was the first time I injected. I want to do it some more but I cant have streaks in my turnin slices. Any more thought on this subject?

Consider the following

1) What are you injecting that may cause the streaks ?
2) Does the improved flavor outweigh the potential of some streaks ?
3) How much are you injecting ?
4) What direction(s) are you injecting ?
5) Are you putting to much injection in each spot or distributing evenly as you can ?

[The_Kapn]

I know this is an old post but what about the streaking that sometimes comes with injecting briskets. I injected at a competition a couple of weekends ago and I really liked the taste but it left brown streaks in my slices. That was the first time I injected. I want to do it some more but I cant have streaks in my turnin slices. Any more thought on this subject?

I have never seen any streaking on our injected briskets.
We inject "with the grain" and do it nice and slow so the injection has time to spread out.
Also, our injection is beef color anyway :lol:
Were you using soy or a lot of Whorsey sauce that was darker in color ?

TIM

[3970010]

Yeah, I was injecting some pretty dark stuff that I brought home from Lousianna. A little old lady gave me the stuff and the ingrediants and made me promise not to tell. Her brisket was rubbery and tough but it tasted good. It taste GOOD but I can not live with the streaks. I never considered injecting with the grain. I never considered injecting slowly. Hell, I never considered most of what the two of you mentioned. I guess I need to slow down and figure this out. Thanks for the suggestions.

[The_Kapn]

Thanks for pulling up this older thread.
It is one of the better discussions we have had.

Chad and I actually prepare a full quart of injection for each butt or brisket. We shoot them really full using a brine pump. They blow up like a football :lol:
While in a pan resting, they will leak some injection out. Not a problem. They just sit in it and get "Happy" till time to go to the sauna :lol:
Try to not use "staining" type injection and give it time to spread through the meat while you are injecting.
It is a "labor of love" to get it right.
But, when you do, flavor and moisture throughout.

Keep us posted.

TIM

[3970010]

Thanks

¿Brine Pump? ¿What is that?

[BadBoysBBQ]

Injecting is definitely necessary with any large cut of meat. Pork butts-a must! Briskets also work well but not near as good as pork. I use a mixture of apple juice, soy sauce and worshestershire sauce for pork. It's works wonders.

[The_Kapn]

Thanks

¿Brine Pump? ¿What is that?

Take a look at Post #27 here:
http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13711&highlight=brine+pump

I think it came from "allied kinko" or something like that.
Chad can clarify when he reads this.

It is about a $140 toy. What a tool though!
But, hell, it is just money :oops:
Our team has 2--one for each of us.

When I get a break--I need to update the roadmap on this whole topic.
We have some fantastic historical info as I search back on the subject.

TIM