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EverettBBQ
01-30-2014, 07:26 PM
Ok:drama:
Here goes:shocked:
New rule for 2014:doh:
I can start with a 4 pound butt
I can cook it then separate it and return to smoker
What are your plans?
I am going to give it a try this weekend
Cook to 165
Pull butt
Separate butt from money meat
Wrap them in two packs
Cook pork butt to pull to 195
Cook money meat to 185 and slice
Any suggestions.:mod::mod:
Thanks:blabla::blabla::blabla:

Offthehook
01-30-2014, 07:41 PM
Fine by me, less waste for the MM

Pappy Q
01-30-2014, 07:43 PM
I would expect that to be popular plan

Garrett
01-30-2014, 08:25 PM
Sounds like a plan to me. Be sure to investigate and report back!

Toast
01-30-2014, 08:33 PM
I've got to ask. WTF is a 4# pork butt? A piglet?

EverettBBQ
01-30-2014, 08:44 PM
I've got to ask. WTF is a 4# pork butt? A piglet?

Got me:blabla:
Read the new rule:mmph::mmph::cry:

smoke ninja
01-30-2014, 09:56 PM
Q talk? sorry guys.

sliding_billy
01-31-2014, 02:07 AM
I normally just position my money muscle away from the hot spot and get almost that exact temp difference. I could see how this would be very beneficial to the RF (and other consistent temp cooker temp) guys. Where in the rule sheet is the 4 lb butt thing? I missed that.

Pappy Q
01-31-2014, 04:50 AM
Got me:blabla:
Read the new rule:mmph::mmph::cry:

It's a "minimum" 4lbs, they can be any size you want over the minimum

jeffry1970
01-31-2014, 05:49 AM
Interesting.
I assumed separating the MM and retiring to the cooker was where the original rule came from. Why the change?
This is going to be interesting.

bbqgeekess
01-31-2014, 06:15 AM
I wonder how a 4 pound butt tastes compared to say an 8 pound. Veal tastes much different than beef for example.

SpicemanJames
01-31-2014, 07:21 AM
I've got to ask. WTF is a 4# pork butt? A piglet?

I must say when I LMAO when I saw this:bow:

MikeJ65
01-31-2014, 08:52 AM
To start, I will just pull the MM instead of the whole butt on the butt(s) I was cooking for MM. As we adapt to the new rule, I will probably 'harvest' parts and pieces when I feel they are ideally cooked. For me, the best part is that I don't have underdone butts in the Cambro when I get home.

Candy Sue
01-31-2014, 09:02 AM
IMO, big butts still better butts!

ModelMaker
01-31-2014, 09:11 AM
Candy likes big butts and she can not lie...
Ed

Jason TQ
01-31-2014, 09:40 AM
Probably won't change much/anything for us. The new rule still needs tweaking. My biggest question is the "once cooked" part. They need to very specifically define what is cooked. No assuming "usda 145". KCBS needs to state a temp. Why leave it ambiguous??

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at the time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turn in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

cpw
01-31-2014, 11:25 AM
If I don't change anything else, it'll be to at the very least separate the MM from the rest of the pork. The SCBA allows this, and it makes for much less waste.

I was listening to one of the BBQ radio shows (don't remember which) and the interviewee, I think it was Quau, was talking about testing some real out of the box (or in this case, in the box) things they were testing now that the pork rule had changed.

Jason TQ
01-31-2014, 11:43 AM
If I don't change anything else, it'll be to at the very least separate the MM from the rest of the pork. The SCBA allows this, and it makes for much less waste.

I was listening to one of the BBQ radio shows (don't remember which) and the interviewee, I think it was Quau, was talking about testing some real out of the box (or in this case, in the box) things they were testing now that the pork rule had changed.

Less waste how? My brain isn't functioning right now.

musicmanryann
01-31-2014, 11:49 AM
I was listening to one of the BBQ radio shows (don't remember which) and the interviewee, I think it was Quau, was talking about testing some real out of the box (or in this case, in the box) things they were testing now that the pork rule had changed.

I have talked with Mike about some of his ideas. Now that the rule has come out I am not sure some of those ideas would be legal. If you are going to try something off-the-wall, by all means do so, but my friendly advice would be to ALWAYS check with the contest rep first. All that matters at a contest is their interpretation of the rules that day. No one wants to see anyone get DQ'd--always a major bummer.

rtboswell
01-31-2014, 11:49 AM
Less waste how? My brain isn't functioning right now.

Less waste because people aren't cooking a butt to a lower temp just for the money muscle.

On the other front in relation to "cooked", at Lakeland Pigfest last week, the reps said that they couldn't further define cook for us and left it at that even after being pushed. I'm with you Jason that there needs to be some definition of that word...

cpw
01-31-2014, 11:56 AM
Less waste because people aren't cooking a butt to a lower temp just for the money muscle.


Yes. I'm not good enough to cook 1 butt and be able to get sliced and pulled from the same butt, so if I want slices, the rest of the butt is underdone.

Jorge
01-31-2014, 12:31 PM
Probably won't change much/anything for us. The new rule still needs tweaking. My biggest question is the "once cooked" part. They need to very specifically define what is cooked. No assuming "usda 145". KCBS needs to state a temp. Why leave it ambiguous??

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at the time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turn in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

Policy is that the rule remains unchanged for the duration of the season. If that continues the only way that I'm aware of to address your concern would be with a Rep Advisory, and some may feel that the needed language would be beyond the intended scope of an advisory.

Jason TQ
01-31-2014, 01:03 PM
Less waste because people aren't cooking a butt to a lower temp just for the money muscle.

On the other front in relation to "cooked", at Lakeland Pigfest last week, the reps said that they couldn't further define cook for us and left it at that even after being pushed. I'm with you Jason that there needs to be some definition of that word...

Ah I get it. I ain't so smart :doh:.

And if the reps left it so the cooks could use their discretion then it is fair game. Put a butt on at 7am in the morning, take it off at 7:15 because it is "cooked", cut off the MM, put the MM back and then chuck the rest away :-D. An extreme example yes, but this is a glaring smack you in the face loophole that I can't believe they left open. How hard would it have been to decide on 145 like the usda. Just a few more characters typed.

Granted I don't have time to practice this new method before our first competition so I'll just keep doing what we are doing :becky:.

Jason TQ
01-31-2014, 01:11 PM
Policy is that the rule remains unchanged for the duration of the season. If that continues the only way that I'm aware of to address your concern would be with a Rep Advisory, and some may feel that the needed language would be beyond the intended scope of an advisory.

It will be interesting to see what the recommended advise is from the Reps. I know I will be asking as will a lot of other I'm sure. I wonder if they will all answer the same.........

I might be the only one that thinks this, but it really is a large loophole in the new rules. Though through many previous threads on the topic this horse has been beaten before.

If the reps can't define it because KCBS is being vague then it is open season on when folks want to take their pork off.

Jason TQ
01-31-2014, 01:15 PM
Yes. I'm not good enough to cook 1 butt and be able to get sliced and pulled from the same butt, so if I want slices, the rest of the butt is underdone.

I hear ya. We used to cook 4 and now down to 2, but that was because I could screw up 4 just like 2 :loco:.

MikeJ65
01-31-2014, 01:20 PM
If I don't change anything else, it'll be to at the very least separate the MM from the rest of the pork. The SCBA allows this, and it makes for much less waste.

I was listening to one of the BBQ radio shows (don't remember which) and the interviewee, I think it was Quau, was talking about testing some real out of the box (or in this case, in the box) things they were testing now that the pork rule had changed.

The only things that have really changed is that you can now cook different parts of each 'chunk' (picnic or butt) for differing amounts of time and you can reheat/glaze individual parts. I can't think of anything that you can put in the box now that you couldn't earlier if you cooked enough pork.

Ultimately, this is either a pulled pork category or a 'tasty bits of pork shoulder' category. I think it ceased being pulled pork years ago.

Jorge
01-31-2014, 01:29 PM
I have talked with Mike about some of his ideas. Now that the rule has come out I am not sure some of those ideas would be legal. If you are going to try something off-the-wall, by all means do so, but my friendly advice would be to ALWAYS check with the contest rep first. All that matters at a contest is their interpretation of the rules that day. No one wants to see anyone get DQ'd--always a major bummer.

If I was a judge, I'd be hoping for his pork box just to see what he comes up with.

5string
01-31-2014, 01:33 PM
All that matters at a contest is their interpretation of the rules that day.

Sounds like NASCAR

cpw
01-31-2014, 01:55 PM
If I was a judge, I'd be hoping for his pork box just to see what he comes up with.

It sure got me thinking about new things to try.

BMerrill
01-31-2014, 02:00 PM
The New Pork Rule: What does it really mean?

Disclaimer: The information herein expressed is the opinion of the author and not the opinion of KCBS Board of Directors. The decision and interpretations of the KCBS Rules and Regulations are at the discretion of the KCBS Contest Representatives at the contest. Their decisions and interpretations are final to the extent consistent with the rules. It is your responsibility as the head cook to make sure your cook team is compliant with the rules.

With another BBQ Season is in the books, it’s time to start preparing for next season. On November 26, 2013 the KCBS Board of Directors finalized the rules for 2014. One of the most discussed rules was Rule 10: aka the “Pork” rule. The rule as approved reads as follows:

Rule 10: PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

What does the final Pork rule for 2014 really mean and how will it affect the way we cook pork? We can argue our personal interpretation of the meaning of the words in the pork rule or use a crystal ball to interpret the BOD line of thinking, or can we?

To definitively decipher the rule, you must understand about creating rules and regulations, specifically what some of the words mean. Simply, if a word is to be limited or defined in a manner different than found in commonly available dictionaries or as defined by an industry standard like the National Pork Board, then the definition must be provided.

Starting with the first sentence of the rule, its defines Pork as the Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection.

Since KCBS did not define the “Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder” within the rule, then we should refer to an authority on the subject matter. The National Pork Board defines “Pork shoulder is the top portion of the front leg of the hog. The terminology for pork shoulder can vary widely depending on the region. However, the lower ‘arm’ portion of the shoulder is most commonly called the arm Picnic. The upper part of the shoulder, often called the Boston Blade Roast (also known as Boston- style Butt), comes from the area near the loin and contains the shoulder blade bone.” See www.porkbeinspired.com (http://www.porkbeinspired.com/) under cuts and cooking, shoulder.

Several years ago when a question was ask about a specific pork cut the KCBS Board of Directors adopted the National Pork Board’s definitions on February 11, 2011, which define the standard for cuts of Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403). See Contest Rep’s Advisory 4.11http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2013-contest-rep-advisory.pdf (http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2013-contest-rep-advisory.pdf). A lot of confusion could have been eliminated if the standard food cuts were incorporate within the rule.

A word of caution when shopping the meat case; Names vary widely by region. What is labeled as a "Butt" may not meet the definition per KCBS rules. Make sure the “Butt” which is the cut most often cooked, contains the shoulder blade bone (from the definition above) or if boneless, it must have all of the muscles that were around the bone. The best advice here it to get to know your butcher and learn the standard food service cuts so you are both talking the same terminology. See www.porkfoodservice.org (http://www.porkfoodservice.org/) under ”Menuing Pork”, then “Foodservice Cuts”.

The words with the most discussion and confusion on various BBQ related forums are “trim”, “whole”, and “cooked”. Referring to Merriam Webster:

trim
verb

1) to cut (something) off something else
2) to remove (something) by cutting
3) to make (something) neat by cutting it
4) to remove excess or extraneous matter

Now apply the four (4) definitions to the rule by substituting the meanings for the word “trimming”.

The rule: “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole….”

“After cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After removing (something) by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After making it neat by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After to remove excess or extraneous matter, pork shall be cooked whole….”

So the act of trimming pork is to make it neat (shape) in appearance by cutting to remove excess or extraneous (non relevant) matter. Does this mean pork can be trimmed away as the cooks see fit? No, it doesn’t, trimmed “Pork” still has to meet the definition of “Pork” in the first line of the rule. But this is not the only limiting factor of how you can trim in the rule. Continue…

whole
adjective

1) complete or full
2) not lacking or leaving out any part
3) having all the parts
4) not divided or cut into parts or pieces

Referring to the sentence in the rule, “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole”…... “whole” is an adjective which qualifies a noun or pronoun in the same sentence. Therefore, we can conclude “whole” is referring to “pork”. What is whole pork? Simple substitution: “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (complete, having all of its parts and not divided or cut into parts or pieces)….”

This sheds new light on how you can trim pork. Trimmed pork has to have all of its parts, cannot be divided or cut into pieces and must still meet the definition of pork in the first line of the rule. Undivided is defined as: together as one unit, not separated.

Examples:
Division of a legal butt by cutting parallel to muscle groups such as cutting off the money muscle would be illegal because the end product no longer meets the definition of “Pork”.
Dividing of muscle groups would be illegal because the end product is no longer together as one unit "whole", but once cooked it can be divided, so no more cutting the money muscle nearly off before it is cook. Now being able to part and return to the cooker once it is done; there really isn't a reason to do this anymore.
Trimming the skin and/or the fat cap are legal because no muscle groups are divided and the trimmed pork still meets the definition of “Pork”.

Now for “cooked”.

cooked
verb

1) to prepare for eating by a heating process
2) to go through the process of being cooked

Everyone can agree “cooked” pork has to be edible. So what is edible pork? Referring to an authority on the subject matter, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services has defined 145°F as the minimum safe internal temperature for fresh pork with a 3 minute rest. (www.foodsafety.gov (http://www.foodsafety.gov/)) At 145°F it may be safe to eat, but tender it won’t. Most will cook until the money muscle is tender (180-185°) then continue to cook the remaining until it can be pulled (195-200°).

Putting this all together, when the common and authority meanings are applied to the rule, the rule reads like this:

PORK: Pork is defined as National Pork Board’s standard pork cuts Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403) but no others, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming only to shape or remove excess or extraneous matter, pork, as defined above, shall be cooked whole, having all of its parts and not divided or cut into parts or pieces, to an internal temperature above 145°F (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

Jason TQ
01-31-2014, 02:19 PM
cooked
verb

1) to prepare for eating by a heating process
2) to go through the process of being cooked

Everyone can agree “cooked” pork has to be edible. So what is edible pork? Referring to an authority on the subject matter, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services has defined 145°F as the minimum safe internal temperature for fresh pork with a 3 minute rest. (www.foodsafety.gov (http://www.foodsafety.gov/)) At 145°F it may be safe to eat, but tender it won’t. Most will cook until the money muscle is tender (180-185°) then continue to cook the remaining until it can be pulled (195-200°).

Putting this all together, when the common and authority meanings are applied to the rule, the rule reads like this:

PORK: Pork is defined as National Pork Board’s standard pork cuts Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403) but no others, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming only to shape or remove excess or extraneous matter, pork, as defined above, shall be cooked whole, having all of its parts and not divided or cut into parts or pieces, to an internal temperature above 145°F (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

I think there is still plenty of ambiguity because a team could argue that after separating at a lower temp they will place all meat back on to hit that 145 (which of course they didn't specify). "Hey we cooked it, then cooked it some more" kind of thing. It would have been so easy for them to put in 145, but they didn't and it makes zero sense to me.

Also they indicate that once "cooked" it can be returned to the smoker which indicates it isn't 100% finished to the cooks liking. There are lots of recipes and cooking methods that require something to be removed from the heat source to add another ingredient/complete and additional step and then returned to heat source to finishing cooking. And I get the whole "Let just use common sense here guys" point you are making, but it would have just been so easy for them to put 145 in there and be done with it. Why leave ambiguity in there at all?? USDA says steak is done at 145, but how many people here think it is completely acceptable at 125-135?

But I guess I think it might also be strange because you can take off all your other meats at any temp you want as many times as you want and separate them as much as you want and it doesn't matter.


Edit: I'll also admit that I'm somewhat playing devil's advocate here, but it just boggles the mind :laugh::crazy:.

rtboswell
01-31-2014, 02:37 PM
And if the reps left it so the cooks could use their discretion then it is fair game. Put a butt on at 7am in the morning, take it off at 7:15 because it is "cooked", cut off the MM, put the MM back and then chuck the rest away :-D. An extreme example yes, but this is a glaring smack you in the face loophole that I can't believe they left open.

That scenario was laid out in Lakeland and the reps basically stuck to their guns on not defining "cook" for us. They left it ambiguous just as it reads.

How much leeway do you the reps actually have in interpreting "cook" and/or the rules in general?

Jason TQ
01-31-2014, 02:46 PM
That scenario was laid out in Lakeland and the reps basically stuck to their guns on not defining "cook" for us. They left it ambiguous just as it reads.

How much leeway do you the reps actually have in interpreting "cook" and/or the rules in general?

That is a pretty far cry from "Hey let's just use common sense and cook to 145".

MikeJ65
01-31-2014, 03:01 PM
Anyone ever see a rep with a Thermapen? If they see you cutting up a butt into small chunks before putting it on the cooker, it might be an issue, but I can't imagine any other enforcement.

GrillBillie_D
01-31-2014, 06:53 PM
So for this year, pork is pretty much open to do what you like with...."cook" it for 15 minutes and then separate it. Until KCBS comes out and states that you cannot do that, then it is legal because they didn't and won't define "cooked". Non issue.

Just do whatever you want with it......end of story :drama:

Smoke'n Ice
01-31-2014, 08:43 PM
There was zero enforcement of the old rule and the new rules just legalizes what some cooks had been doing. I don't really think that the new rule will change how most cooks cook the pork.

Just saying that rules are meant to keep honest people, honest and those so inclined will still ignore them.

Q-Dat
02-01-2014, 02:43 AM
The New Pork Rule: What does it really mean?

Disclaimer: The information herein expressed is the opinion of the author and not the opinion of KCBS Board of Directors. The decision and interpretations of the KCBS Rules and Regulations are at the discretion of the KCBS Contest Representatives at the contest. Their decisions and interpretations are final to the extent consistent with the rules. It is your responsibility as the head cook to make sure your cook team is compliant with the rules.

With another BBQ Season is in the books, it’s time to start preparing for next season. On November 26, 2013 the KCBS Board of Directors finalized the rules for 2014. One of the most discussed rules was Rule 10: aka the “Pork” rule. The rule as approved reads as follows:

Rule 10: PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

What does the final Pork rule for 2014 really mean and how will it affect the way we cook pork? We can argue our personal interpretation of the meaning of the words in the pork rule or use a crystal ball to interpret the BOD line of thinking, or can we?

To definitively decipher the rule, you must understand about creating rules and regulations, specifically what some of the words mean. Simply, if a word is to be limited or defined in a manner different than found in commonly available dictionaries or as defined by an industry standard like the National Pork Board, then the definition must be provided.

Starting with the first sentence of the rule, its defines Pork as the Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection.

Since KCBS did not define the “Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder” within the rule, then we should refer to an authority on the subject matter. The National Pork Board defines “Pork shoulder is the top portion of the front leg of the hog. The terminology for pork shoulder can vary widely depending on the region. However, the lower ‘arm’ portion of the shoulder is most commonly called the arm Picnic. The upper part of the shoulder, often called the Boston Blade Roast (also known as Boston- style Butt), comes from the area near the loin and contains the shoulder blade bone.” See www.porkbeinspired.com (http://www.porkbeinspired.com/) under cuts and cooking, shoulder.

Several years ago when a question was ask about a specific pork cut the KCBS Board of Directors adopted the National Pork Board’s definitions on February 11, 2011, which define the standard for cuts of Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403). See Contest Rep’s Advisory 4.11http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2013-contest-rep-advisory.pdf (http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2013-contest-rep-advisory.pdf). A lot of confusion could have been eliminated if the standard food cuts were incorporate within the rule.

A word of caution when shopping the meat case; Names vary widely by region. What is labeled as a "Butt" may not meet the definition per KCBS rules. Make sure the “Butt” which is the cut most often cooked, contains the shoulder blade bone (from the definition above) or if boneless, it must have all of the muscles that were around the bone. The best advice here it to get to know your butcher and learn the standard food service cuts so you are both talking the same terminology. See www.porkfoodservice.org (http://www.porkfoodservice.org/) under ”Menuing Pork”, then “Foodservice Cuts”.

The words with the most discussion and confusion on various BBQ related forums are “trim”, “whole”, and “cooked”. Referring to Merriam Webster:

trim
verb

1) to cut (something) off something else
2) to remove (something) by cutting
3) to make (something) neat by cutting it
4) to remove excess or extraneous matter

Now apply the four (4) definitions to the rule by substituting the meanings for the word “trimming”.

The rule: “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole….”

“After cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After removing (something) by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After making it neat by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After to remove excess or extraneous matter, pork shall be cooked whole….”

So the act of trimming pork is to make it neat (shape) in appearance by cutting to remove excess or extraneous (non relevant) matter. Does this mean pork can be trimmed away as the cooks see fit? No, it doesn’t, trimmed “Pork” still has to meet the definition of “Pork” in the first line of the rule. But this is not the only limiting factor of how you can trim in the rule. Continue…

whole
adjective

1) complete or full
2) not lacking or leaving out any part
3) having all the parts
4) not divided or cut into parts or pieces

Referring to the sentence in the rule, “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole”…... “whole” is an adjective which qualifies a noun or pronoun in the same sentence. Therefore, we can conclude “whole” is referring to “pork”. What is whole pork? Simple substitution: “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (complete, having all of its parts and not divided or cut into parts or pieces)….”

This sheds new light on how you can trim pork. Trimmed pork has to have all of its parts, cannot be divided or cut into pieces and must still meet the definition of pork in the first line of the rule. Undivided is defined as: together as one unit, not separated.

Examples:
Division of a legal butt by cutting parallel to muscle groups such as cutting off the money muscle would be illegal because the end product no longer meets the definition of “Pork”.
Dividing of muscle groups would be illegal because the end product is no longer together as one unit "whole", but once cooked it can be divided, so no more cutting the money muscle nearly off before it is cook. Now being able to part and return to the cooker once it is done; there really isn't a reason to do this anymore.
Trimming the skin and/or the fat cap are legal because no muscle groups are divided and the trimmed pork still meets the definition of “Pork”.

Now for “cooked”.

cooked
verb

1) to prepare for eating by a heating process
2) to go through the process of being cooked

Everyone can agree “cooked” pork has to be edible. So what is edible pork? Referring to an authority on the subject matter, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services has defined 145°F as the minimum safe internal temperature for fresh pork with a 3 minute rest. (www.foodsafety.gov (http://www.foodsafety.gov/)) At 145°F it may be safe to eat, but tender it won’t. Most will cook until the money muscle is tender (180-185°) then continue to cook the remaining until it can be pulled (195-200°).

Putting this all together, when the common and authority meanings are applied to the rule, the rule reads like this:

PORK: Pork is defined as National Pork Board’s standard pork cuts Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403) but no others, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming only to shape or remove excess or extraneous matter, pork, as defined above, shall be cooked whole, having all of its parts and not divided or cut into parts or pieces, to an internal temperature above 145°F (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

I totally agree with you, but unfortunately I doubt we can count on people to put as much thought into it as you have. We have become a country of lazy thinkers. I hope I'm wrong, because the way you explain it, its pretty easy to understand for anyone who really wants to.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Until they sew the wording up so tightly that there is no room for any misinterpretation whatsoever, this debate will continue. The frustrating thing is that after all the time that has been spent discussing this we still dont have an indisputable rule.

Oh and before anyone hits me with "the rule has always been indisputable" it clearly is disputable. There are countless pages of arguments on this forum alone that prove that it is disputable. It needs to be worded so clearly that it will be as undeniable as saying that the sky is blue.




Shut up Q-Dat you cook one or two KCBS events per year. Nobody cares what you think.

Jason TQ
02-01-2014, 07:41 AM
I totally agree with you, but unfortunately I doubt we can count on people to put as much thought into it as you have. We have become a country of lazy thinkers. I hope I'm wrong, because the way you explain it, its pretty easy to understand for anyone who really wants to.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Until they sew the wording up so tightly that there is no room for any misinterpretation whatsoever, this debate will continue. The frustrating thing is that after all the time that has been spent discussing this we still dont have an indisputable rule.

Oh and before anyone hits me with "the rule has always been indisputable" it clearly is disputable. There are countless pages of arguments on this forum alone that prove that it is disputable. It needs to be worded so clearly that it will be as undeniable as saying that the sky is blue.


Shut up Q-Dat you cook one or two KCBS events per year. Nobody cares what you think.

Heck I would even take if the rule was semi sewn up by "insert funny analogy of something that can't sew". For as long as they thought about it this rule it isn't even close to being"buttoned up"at all :loco:. Yes there are times where people should use common sense, but too many glaring loopholes in here not to talk about. And it is even more crazy because it seems so easy to have worded it differently.

MikeJ65
02-01-2014, 07:46 AM
Like I've said before, I would treat pork just like brisket. I don't see anyone having trouble interpreting the 'brisket' rule.

drbbq
02-01-2014, 09:24 AM
So for this year, pork is pretty much open to do what you like with...."cook" it for 15 minutes and then separate it.

This question was pretty directly asked at the Lakeland cook's meeting and the answer was yes you can do that. No minimum time or temp to define cooked. Lay it on the grate and it's now been cooked. Steven Smith did most of the talking and Wayne Lohman jumped in at the end.

Q-Dat
02-01-2014, 11:41 AM
This question was pretty directly asked at the Lakeland cook's meeting and the answer was yes you can do that. No minimum time or temp to define cooked. Lay it on the grate and it's now been cooked. Steven Smith did most of the talking and Wayne Lohman jumped in at the end.

Ya know, its almost as if they're trying to tell everyone to do whatever they want without just coming out and saying it.

JD McGee
02-01-2014, 03:06 PM
Not going to affect our method much...:cool: I like being able to toss whatever back on the smoker though...especially when it's cold out!

jeffry1970
02-01-2014, 06:06 PM
I asked a kcbs rep about this .
Here's my question:


Sooo...as a rep I need clarification with the new pork rule.
I can cook my pork butt, take it off and separate *the money muscle then return the butt to the smoker?
Am I missing something? How do you define until cooked? I have to put it on whole then treat it as I wish like brisket?
Confused

damn new pork rule !!

I like the new rule, but don't like it's wordiness - should have gone back to the old-old rule:

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds. Pork shall be cooked
(bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted. The end.

Put it in whole, and once "cooked" - defined per the Pork Council 145°: http://www.porkbeinspired.com/Basics_PorkCookingTimeChart.aspx
then you may do anything to it.
Good ? Cook away.

Alexa RnQ
02-01-2014, 06:42 PM
So Steven Smith and Wayne Lohman say there is no time or temp defined, and this unnamed other rep has adopted a specific temperature, with no direction to do so (and no stated plan of enforcement). And no specification as to WHERE in the butt this temp is to be measured -- anyone who's cooked one knows that you can have one area in a butt at 145, and another area damn near 70. Who picks?

So, do we all call up our particular rep for an upcoming contest and ask, "How exactly are *you* interpreting the pork rule this week?" Suppose there will be a run on Thermapen and scale purchases by reps?

Cluster, or free-for-all? YOU be the judge!

Big Poppa
02-01-2014, 07:07 PM
and they had two contests that count for 2014 under the old rules. so they changed the rules once the season had already started.

GrillBillie_D
02-01-2014, 10:46 PM
They could never put in a temp rule....exactly where would you measure the temp? I could put my butt on a really hot grill and the exterior of that butt would get to 145 pretty quickly...it's done on that part of the butt. And what if my thermometer is not calibrated? What if I don't have a thermometer? There is no practical way to have a temp rule in competition.

While they haven't quite gone as far as say, "go ahead and cook the MM how you want", they have left that open for you to decide (if you want). Just make sure you "cook" it whole, then you can separate it and return to cooker.

I wonder who is working on their pork burnt ends now? :tape:

Q-Dat
02-01-2014, 11:13 PM
I wonder who is working on their pork burnt ends now? :tape:

Dude.....if I find out I can make pork burnt ends it will be ON!!! Cool2

jeffry1970
02-02-2014, 05:48 AM
They may not be burnt ends by definition but yes there are many things you can do with a pork butt. This new rule change is a game changer.

drbbq
02-02-2014, 07:59 AM
They could never put in a temp rule....exactly where would you measure the temp? I could put my butt on a really hot grill and the exterior of that butt would get to 145 pretty quickly...it's done on that part of the butt. And what if my thermometer is not calibrated? What if I don't have a thermometer? There is no practical way to have a temp rule in competition.

Every health department in the US uses temp as a guideline so it's doable. Every bit of the item has to be up to temp. I'm not saying temp is the solution but it's done every day.

Porcine Perfection
02-02-2014, 08:54 AM
Every health department in the US uses temp as a guideline so it's doable. Every bit of the item has to be up to temp. I'm not saying temp is the solution but it's done every day.

How in the world would one be able to enforce this?

Q-Dat
02-02-2014, 09:37 AM
How in the world would one be able to enforce this?

Truthfully, there is no practical way. For that matter however, there are other rules like this as well. For example, we aren't supposed to season meat in any way before meat inspection, but whats to prevent someone from having a separate ice chest with pre seasoned meat ready to go? Every time I've had the meat inspector check my stuff, they have been in a hurry and didn't seem interested in looking inside the other ice chest. He would only have found Mountain Dew and water if he did, but if I wanted to cheat that rule there would be nothing to stop me.

Having an indisputable rule isn't going to prevent someone from cheating. It just removes the cheater's ability to tell himself that he's not cheating based off of some technicality.

Rich Parker
02-02-2014, 09:56 AM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fp5_e5aPqUY/SVkWA1zJUbI/AAAAAAAAG-4/mKu3y1vyEbY/s400/deadhorse2.jpg

Fat Freddy
02-02-2014, 10:09 AM
Wow, I am starting to think we are over thinking this pork rule :twitch:. Seems as simple to me as Cook it to a reasonable temp(whatever someone thinks is reasonable) Then Separate it IF YOU WANT TO(whether to sauce, reheat, whatever), if you dont want to then dont separate, then box it and send it in.

Then again I have some major stuff going on with a newborn grandson right now, so maybe I am just not worried enough about it and once things get better I will over think the rules myself.

Q-Dat
02-02-2014, 10:21 AM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fp5_e5aPqUY/SVkWA1zJUbI/AAAAAAAAG-4/mKu3y1vyEbY/s400/deadhorse2.jpg

I was waiting for someone to make that joke.

The truth unfortunately is, that this horse is not dead. Its aliive and well and will remain so until KCBS leadership figures out how to write this rule with no room for confusion.

Rich Parker
02-02-2014, 10:31 AM
I was waiting for someone to make that joke.

The truth unfortunately is, that this horse is not dead. Its aliive and well and will remain so until KCBS leadership figures out how to write this rule with no room for confusion.

What you are asking for is not possible. Look at the rest of the rules (laws) in this world. Everyone of them is up for interpretation which is why we have the courts of law. Then we get in to precedence and all of that jazz. It will never be perfect.

Slamdunkpro
02-02-2014, 11:14 AM
The truth unfortunately is, that this horse is not dead. Its aliive and well and will remain so until KCBS leadership is willing to write this rule with no room for confusion and call for on-site enforcement.
Fixed your post

Q-Dat
02-02-2014, 12:24 PM
What you are asking for is not possible. Look at the rest of the rules (laws) in this world. Everyone of them is up for interpretation which is why we have the courts of law. Then we get in to precedence and all of that jazz. It will never be perfect.

OK lets say that this is how the pork rule was worded.

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder with a pre cook weight of at least 4 lbs (bone in or bone out). The minimum 4 lb mass may be parted ONLY after it has been cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degrees throughout the intact mass of pork.

Someone please tell me what part of that is left open to interpretation.

I'm totally willing to have it pointed out if there is any.

Slamdunkpro
02-02-2014, 12:37 PM
OK lets say that this is how the pork rule was worded.

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder with a pre cook weight of at least 4 lbs (bone in or bone out). The minimum 4 lb mass may be parted ONLY after it has been cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degrees throughout the intact mass of pork.

Someone please tell me what part of that is left open to interpretation.

I'm totally willing to have it pointed out if there is any.
You have to cover trimming.

Q-Dat
02-02-2014, 12:53 PM
QUOTE=Slamdunkpro;2790073]You have to cover trimming.[/QUOTE]

Good point. I got in a hurry and forgot to add that.


PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder with a pre cook weight of at least 4 lbs AFTER TRIMMING (bone in or bone out). The minimum 4 lb mass may be parted ONLY after it has been cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degrees throughout the intact mass of pork.

Ok how about now? Anything ambiguous in there?

Know Bull
02-02-2014, 02:10 PM
I agree that enforcement is problematic. Look at the money invested in cookers, trailers, and motor homes. KCBS contests have grown and evolved to the point that the "good old boy" honor system should be reexamined.

Long story to make a short point. I participated in one of the multi-level large prize contests. The team across from me was one of the "elite" KCBS members that consistently is in the running for team of the year. The team was local resident, and was one of the first set up on site, attended the cook's meeting, and spent Friday afternoon socializing with others. Meat inspections were indicated as complete by a ribbon tied to the site. On Friday, the "elite" team did not have a ribbon displayed.
On Saturday, my neighbor still did not have a meat inspection ribbon. When the contest rep came around with the official time, I inquired about the absence of a meat inspection ribbon by my neighbor. The rep told me he would check into it. He returned later to tell me that he now knew that the local team had their meat inspected by another team, late at night, after the rep was gone from the contest.
Really? The rep did not know if the meat had even inspected until I asked. And why would a local team that was around for most of the afternoon need to wait until the rep was gone to have a meat inspection?
Now in this particular situation, given the relatively low ranking of the team in the contest, there was not a problem with the meat inspection. But as the contest money goes up, we should have tighter enforcement of the rules; not less enforcement because the sponsored and well capitalized "good old boys" are the ones competing.

I really do not offer a solution. The nature of these contests will always require a presumption that the unsupervised teams are following the rules. But maybe we should implement a standard where the number of reps at a contest are proportional to the total dollar prize pool. A low prize contest could have one rep; a high prize contest would require additional reps with more on-site inspections. Or we can move toward rules that require less supervision for enforcement.

As someone else stated, the new pork rule probably legalizes what a number of teams were doing anyway. The new rule probably requires less supervision by contest reps, not more. After all, it is a cooking contest. Let the teams cook as they see fit.

ynotfehc
02-03-2014, 08:42 AM
There already is a rule on temperature for cooked meets. Its 140F, which is the same for any health department for holding and maintaining temperature. Does it need to be written in the rule book twice? Instead of trying to re-word how the rules should be written or arguing semantics of what cooked means, maybe we all need to actually read all the rules. If its cooked its over 140, as it says here:
Rule 18.G After cooking, All meat must be held at 140° F or above .

Jason TQ
02-03-2014, 10:19 AM
There already is a rule on temperature for cooked meets. Its 140F, which is the same for any health department for holding and maintaining temperature. Does it need to be written in the rule book twice? Instead of trying to re-word how the rules should be written or arguing semantics of what cooked means, maybe we all need to actually read all the rules. If its cooked its over 140, as it says here:
Rule 18.G After cooking, All meat must be held at 140° F or above .

I think a lot of what we are discussing is not what the final temp is, but what temp is acceptable when a piece of meat is taken off the smoker and put back on.

People take their chicken off the smoker well before it is done to complete an addition flavor step, but of course return it to the cooker to finish cooking and come up to the appropriate final temp. People can also take off brisket and ribs at any temp and of course it is returned to finish cooking. Seems strange that pork is the only problem child here.

YankeeBBQ
02-03-2014, 01:11 PM
What you are asking for is not possible. Look at the rest of the rules (laws) in this world. Everyone of them is up for interpretation which is why we have the courts of law. Then we get in to precedence and all of that jazz. It will never be perfect.


Actually it's pretty easy

10) The Four KCBS Meat Categories
CHICKEN: Chicken includes Cornish Game Hen and Kosher Chicken
PORK RIBS: Ribs shall include the bone. Country style ribs are prohibited
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. Pork Collar is prohibited.
BEEF BRISKET: May be whole brisket, flat or point. Corned beef is not allowed.

BMerrill
02-03-2014, 01:34 PM
The original pork rule's intent was for a butt/shoulder/picnic to be cooked as one piece. Soon cooks looking for a competitive edge starting slicing various muscles groups for presentation and the judges loved it. Cooks were getting walk$ with a specific muscle group, hence it's name. Then everyone started presenting it. As cooks do, always looking for the next competitive edge, they became creativity with their trimming to get the most bark around the MM. This in turn made it cook faster than the remaining portion. Because the rule did not allow for separation and for the under done portion to be returned to the cooker, most teams started cooked 2 butts for the MM slices and 2 for the pulled/chopped/chunks. The latest version of the rule is to allow the MM to be cut off when done and for the remainder to be cooked longer so it can be pulled. This will allow cooks to drop back to 2 butts if they so choose.

So how do you return back to the original intent of the rule? It's certainty not with the present or any past version of the rule and without active enforcement, why have any rule at all. The solution is simple but will not get many votes because it quickly levels the playing field, but enforcement is simplified and would be done at the judging table.

Pork: Pork is defined as the whole shoulder or any part thereof and maybe submitted as pulled, chopped, or chunks; slices are not permitted.

Personally I'm a fan of whole hog BBQ. Not that I want to cook a whole hog at a contest, but at some joint contest where whole hogs are cooked, why not allow whole hog; hence an even shorter rule.

Pork: Maybe submitted as pulled, chopped, or chunks; slices are not permitted.

Going along with what YankeeBBQ posted. Use his version and change Rule 17 to exclude slices for pork.

Q-Dat
02-03-2014, 01:55 PM
QUOTE=Slamdunkpro;2790073]You have to cover trimming.

Good point. I got in a hurry and forgot to add that.


PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder with a pre cook weight of at least 4 lbs AFTER TRIMMING (bone in or bone out). The minimum 4 lb mass may be parted ONLY after it has been cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degrees throughout the intact mass of pork.

Ok how about now? Anything ambiguous in there?[/QUOTE]


Still waiting and willing for anyone to point out how someone could dispute the way that is worded.

Pappy Q
02-03-2014, 05:42 PM
Just cook your pork to your interpretation of the rule and don't worry about what everyone else is doing. That was the intent of the rule.......

BealeStreetWayne
02-03-2014, 05:56 PM
All we know is we are the only Team to get a first place KCBS Pork so far in 2014 (Midnight Burn, Lakeland Pigfest, 69 Teams). We cooked the same way we cooked at the end of 2013. It would be interesting to hear from other teams, who actually competed, if they changed due to the rule change and how they fared.

GrillBillie_D
02-03-2014, 06:00 PM
Every health department in the US uses temp as a guideline so it's doable. Every bit of the item has to be up to temp. I'm not saying temp is the solution but it's done every day.

Your absolutely right. They could have used temp in the rule.



PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder with a pre cook weight of at least 4 lbs AFTER TRIMMING (bone in or bone out). The minimum 4 lb mass may be parted ONLY after it has been cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degrees throughout the intact mass of pork.

Ok how about now? Anything ambiguous in there?

I see nothing wrong with your proposed rule...except I think several people tried to pass just such a rule but it failed to get the votes.

The problem is not the rule...it's the intent of the rule. They won't just come out and say what their intent is. They say it's clear, well it's not :deadhorse:

Smokedelic
02-03-2014, 07:04 PM
Just cook your pork to your interpretation of the rule and don't worry about what everyone else is doing. That was the intent of the rule.......
Unfortunately, I don't think my interpretation of the rule matters. The only interpretation that DOES matter is that of the KCBS reps at the particular contest at which I am competing. It sure would be helpful to know THEIR interpretation.

mobow
02-03-2014, 08:38 PM
The individuals interpretation of the rules and self discipline to follow them is all that has ever been in effect. I have never been checked to see if I am following any rule. The only enforcer has always been my own integrity. I believe we all know the spirit of the rule. And if we follow that we will all be close enough to the point of any differences will not have a major impact on the final product. Keith

Alexa RnQ
02-03-2014, 09:06 PM
^^ Which is exactly what everyone was saying through the years leading up to the Pork Collar Advisory.

Q-Dat
02-03-2014, 09:13 PM
[QUOTif =GrillBillie_D;2791742]I see nothing wrong with your proposed rule...except I think several people tried to pass just such a rule but it failed to get the votes.[/QUOTE]

Well if thats the case then there must be people voting on this that are blatantly in favor of ambiguity remaining in the pork rule. I'd sure like to know who voted against it so that I know who not to vote for.


Edit: I thought about this and I take back what I said about not voting for board members, but I do think its irresponsible if there are people intentionally leaving the rule ambiguous. I just wish I knew th reasoning.

Pappy Q
02-04-2014, 05:00 AM
Unfortunately, I don't think my interpretation of the rule matters. The only interpretation that DOES matter is that of the KCBS reps at the particular contest at which I am competing. It sure would be helpful to know THEIR interpretation.

You are correct but my smart ass comment really means that the Reps aren't going to check or enforce any such rule. They never have and never will. KCBS knows that and wrote the rule that way. All the rules are meant to be self enforced.......but I could be wrong.

BrowncoatsBBQ
02-04-2014, 01:12 PM
That's a good idea. PLease do it and fill us all in on how well it worked/or didn't. I'm interested in seeing the results.

DUBBAGA
03-13-2014, 07:57 PM
The KCBS website (http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=740) has posted the following today:

Pork FAQ

Rule 10)
Pork: Pork is defined at Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at the time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of these.

1. What does 'once cooked' mean?
Answer: The KCBS board of directors considers the FDA guidelines for safe cooking temperatures the definition of cooked. In the case of pork that is 145 degrees F with a 3 minute rest time. Visit USDA.gov for more info.

2. Can a butt be trimmed down to just the money muscle and still be considered a legal entry?
Answer: No. The rule states that pork must be cooked whole. Trimming means to remove unwanted fat or gristle, anything beyond that is considered parting.

3. Once the pork reaches a temp equal to or above 145 degrees, can I remove the money muscle and then return the rest of the butt to the cooker?
Answer: Yes, but the money muscle must be held at a proper temperature as defined by the USDA or cooled by USDA guidelines - See more at: http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=740#sthash.VTzH8G3k.dpu (http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=740#sthash.VTzH8G3k.dpuf)

Q-Dat
03-13-2014, 09:49 PM
Well would ya look at that! They finally did it!!!

Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead - YouTube

Jason TQ
03-13-2014, 10:17 PM
The KCBS website (http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=740) has posted the following today:

1. What does 'once cooked' mean?
Answer: The KCBS board of directors considers the FDA guidelines for safe cooking temperatures the definition of cooked. In the case of pork that is 145 degrees F with a 3 minute rest time. Visit USDA.gov for more info.


Interesting to see what the reps now say at contests. So far in 2014 they said the cooks could determine what cooked meant. So you could literally put the meat on for 1 minute then take it off and separate. I guess they will now reference the USDA temps.

Though folks can still take off and put on raw chicken as many times as they want at any temp during the cooking process and also ribs and brisket for that matter. So still doesn't make sense since they only seem to care about about "safe cooking temps" for pork. But I get the temp specification is just to keep folks from separating earlier. Clearly they want all food to finish above the safe temps, but there is no harm in removing something as long as it is placed back in a safe period of time to finish cooking.

Q-Dat
03-13-2014, 10:49 PM
Anybody gonna miss the 15 page debates about the interpretation of the rule?

cpw
03-14-2014, 07:21 AM
Anybody gonna miss the 15 page debates about the interpretation of the rule?

I just don't know why it took 15 pages of debate to clarify such a simple thing.

Q-Dat
03-14-2014, 10:48 AM
I just don't know why it took 15 pages of debate to clarify such a simple thing.

Agreed. I never really cared a whole lot about what the rule should be. I just wanted it to be stated explicitly what can and cannot be done in regards to parting of pork.

As far as enforcement goes, cheaters are gonna cheat. This is for those of us who actually want to play within the rules.

Rub
03-14-2014, 01:28 PM
What a great idea! :wink:
I'm glad they did it. (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2696347&postcount=17)

YankeeBBQ
03-14-2014, 02:21 PM
What a great idea! :wink:
I'm glad they did it. (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2696347&postcount=17)

I definitely got the idea from this forum. I wasn't sure who posted it but thanks. We just want to make sure all the reps are on the same page. Maybe you should run for the board next year, you have my vote !

Podge
03-14-2014, 02:33 PM
ok.. now here's another thing to think about..

You get your 2 MM's done to the temp you like, then you put them into a big cambro to hold for at least another 2 hours or so before the rest of the butt comes to temp, and you then cambro them. I would think now it will be a issue to keep that meat warm in there. That's a lot of cubic inches of space that the MM's will loose heat into without anything else in there to take up space and to provide heat. So, I think a feller would be smart to add a pan of boiling water into the cambro to pre-heat it, or time it in such a way that maybe briskets will already be in there... Just would make me nervous to want to stick (2) 1 pound, or less, chunks of meat in a cambro and hope they are 150-ish by the time turn in comes.

Podge
03-14-2014, 02:34 PM
What a great idea! :wink:
I'm glad they did it. (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2696347&postcount=17)

I always thought you were a smart sumbuck.

Rub
03-14-2014, 02:46 PM
Maybe you should run for the board next year, you have my vote !
No thanks, did it 5-6 years with the FBA. Sidelines are where I belong now. I don't envy you.