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Pappy Q
11-26-2013, 08:24 PM
How will KCBS decide Team of the Year if ends in a tie?

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 08:53 PM
In order to prevent a tie in the top 20 positions, the following procedures be applied. Look at the place scores of the contests of each tied team. The team with the most 1st place scores is the winner. If this does not break the tie, look to the eleventh contest cooked by the tied teams. This contest score will be factored in with the other ten contest scores. Should this not break the tie, continue with contest 12. Should a team not have cooked more than 10 contests, a zero will be input for the tie breaking contest.

Pappy Q
11-26-2013, 09:00 PM
In order to prevent a tie in the top 20 positions, the following procedures be applied. Look at the place scores of the contests of each tied team. The team with the most 1st place scores is the winner. If this does not break the tie, look to the eleventh contest cooked by the tied teams. This contest score will be factored in with the other ten contest scores. Should this not break the tie, continue with contest 12. Should a team not have cooked more than 10 contests, a zero will be input for the tie breaking contest.

So the whole thing will come down to has won the most GC's? Seems like the point system is irrelevant then. But of course that's just my opinion.

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 09:08 PM
So the whole thing will come down to has won the most GC's? Seems like the point system is irrelevant then. But of course that's just my opinion.

Why is it irrelevant ? Even without a tie GC's play a major role in the point system. A team gets 250 points for a GC. Carrying that through to breaking a tie makes sense to me.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
11-26-2013, 09:24 PM
Why is it irrelevant ? Even without a tie GC's play a major role in the point system. A team gets 250 points for a GC. Carrying that through to breaking a tie makes sense to me.

Head to head match ups seem like a better deciding factor on who the best team is IMO. Most GCs just awards cherry picking small contests.

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 09:28 PM
Head to head match ups seem like a better deciding factor on who the best team is IMO. Most GCs just awards cherry picking small contests.

The bonus points make cherry picking small contests a bad move. A head to head just tells you who was the better cook that day. How about best out of 5?

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
11-26-2013, 09:44 PM
The bonus points make cherry picking small contests a bad move. A head to head just tells you who was the better cook that day. How about best out of 5?

Well right now I believe it's 16 to 9 as far as the GC count but the GC leader is 0 for 2 against the 2nd place team head to head. 0 for 3 if you count the Jack.

Pappy Q
11-27-2013, 09:24 AM
Why is it irrelevant ? Even without a tie GC's play a major role in the point system. A team gets 250 points for a GC. Carrying that through to breaking a tie makes sense to me.

Ties at contests aren't settled by who had the most 1st place finishes in the categories but rather by part of the actual point system. Why would ToY be any different.

jaestar
11-27-2013, 05:34 PM
Well right now I believe it's 16 to 9 as far as the GC count but the GC leader is 0 for 2 against the 2nd place team head to head. 0 for 3 if you count the Jack.

I have no dog in this fight but the big issue with this is you can't say that both teams were judged by the same tables...and we all know that there are good and bad tables at contests with KCBScore. The only way this would work would be to have it on a neutral site and have all their entries judged by the same tables.

Pappy Q
11-27-2013, 06:11 PM
I have no dog in this fight but the big issue with this is you can't say that both teams were judged by the same tables...and we all know that there are good and bad tables at contests with KCBScore. The only way this would work would be to have it on a neutral site and have all their entries judged by the same tables.

The whole KCBS system is about judging against a standard within a point system and specifically not judging entries against each other.....

jaestar
11-27-2013, 07:31 PM
I'm not saying they should be judged against each other. I'm saying that the only way to remove any questions would be to have them judged by the same tables and the judges are instructed to judge them on their own merit, not to compare them. There would be no excuses on hitting a hot or cold table.

Slamdunkpro
11-27-2013, 07:34 PM
Cleaver fight!

Nordy
11-28-2013, 08:21 AM
If both teams cook GA next weekend... there very well could be a "head to head" winner...

Should be an interesting end to the year...

Pappy Q
11-28-2013, 09:13 AM
If both teams cook GA next weekend... there very well could be a "head to head" winner...

Should be an interesting end to the year...

They have cooked at the same contest 3 times this year. Warren County finished ahead of Truebud all 3 times with 2 of them being GC's. But the "rule" says whoever has the most overall GC's wins. Therefore it will be Truebud.

Muzzlebrake
11-28-2013, 10:17 AM
Head to head match ups seem like a better deciding factor on who the best team is IMO. Most GCs just awards cherry picking small contests.

Do you think that either of these teams cherry picked smaller contests?

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
11-28-2013, 11:44 AM
Do you think that either of these teams cherry picked smaller contests?

No. They are both amazing teams that can win on any given weekend.

Nordy
11-28-2013, 12:44 PM
They have cooked at the same contest 3 times this year. Warren County finished ahead of Truebud all 3 times with 2 of them being GC's. But the "rule" says whoever has the most overall GC's wins. Therefore it will be Truebud.

Depending on how many teams... and all the "math"... WCPC or Trubud could win it outright with a GC...

bbq.tom
11-28-2013, 11:45 PM
If both teams cook GA next weekend... there very well could be a "head to head" winner...

Should be an interesting end to the year...

WCPC is scheduled to cook in GA, but doesn't look like Truebud will be there.

Kit R
11-29-2013, 07:55 AM
Cleaver fight!

"Guns or knives, Butch?"

rolfejr
11-29-2013, 09:00 AM
"Guns or knives, Butch?"

Thunderdome, two teams enter, one team leaves!

We could lock them in the judges tent.

Bubba
11-30-2013, 04:16 PM
You cannot have a true form of TOY unless each team competes against each other in a set number of contests where you count all finishes. The way KCBS does it now just rewards teams that cook all the time. There has to be a better way of doing this.

Rich Parker
12-02-2013, 12:26 PM
You cannot have a true form of TOY unless each team competes against each other in a set number of contests where you count all finishes. The way KCBS does it now just rewards teams that cook all the time. There has to be a better way of doing this.

A true ToY program would count all of a teams comps not just the 10 best. Right now the ToY is pretty much of a game of those top 50 - 100 teams so if it was true and counted everything it would be a game of the top 10 teams.

Mike Peters had some numbers in the last meeting that were very interesting.

There are still contests to be competed in but as of this listing,

30+ contests - 10 teams
25-29 contests - 9 teams
20-24 contests - 26 teams
15-19 contests - 51 teams
11-14 contests - 95 teams
10 contests - 26 teams
9 contests - 55 teams
8 contests - 48 teams
7 contests - 58 teams
6 contests - 58 teams
5 contests - 44 teams

Jorge
12-02-2013, 12:37 PM
You cannot have a true form of TOY unless each team competes against each other in a set number of contests where you count all finishes. The way KCBS does it now just rewards teams that cook all the time. There has to be a better way of doing this.

And that would be?

dhuffjr
12-03-2013, 09:10 AM
A true ToY program would count all of a teams comps not just the 10 best. Right now the ToY is pretty much of a game of those top 50 - 100 teams so if it was true and counted everything it would be a game of the top 10 teams.

Mike Peters had some numbers in the last meeting that were very interesting.
Interesting numbers. As team that has cooked 5 contests the last two years I'm in the camp of show us some rankings that have meaning to the majority of KCBS. How do we stack up against 1. Everyone 2. similar teams (rankings for teams that compete in 20+, 10+, 5+, etc).

For the TOY race hypothetically which would be the better team the one that cooked 13 contests and GC'd 10 of them or the team that cooked 32 contests and GC'd 11 times? I think there should be something in the system to account for the ratio of wins.

Rich Parker
12-03-2013, 12:30 PM
Interesting numbers. As team that has cooked 5 contests the last two years I'm in the camp of show us some rankings that have meaning to the majority of KCBS. How do we stack up against 1. Everyone 2. similar teams (rankings for teams that compete in 20+, 10+, 5+, etc).

For the TOY race hypothetically which would be the better team the one that cooked 13 contests and GC'd 10 of them or the team that cooked 32 contests and GC'd 11 times? I think there should be something in the system to account for the ratio of wins.

I agree there needs to be some changes to the program that get more teams involved but have no clue how they will do it. I would like to think that weighting a teams scores by the number of events they do would work but would than just hinder the teams that cook more events. Who knows changing this program will be a difficult task.

dhuffjr
12-04-2013, 09:39 AM
I agree there needs to be some changes to the program that get more teams involved but have no clue how they will do it. I would like to think that weighting a teams scores by the number of events they do would work but would than just hinder the teams that cook more events. Who knows changing this program will be a difficult task.

By limiting the score to 10 contests they are keeping it from completely being a pure endurance challenge of who has the most time/money to compete every weekend. The scenario I posed does leave open an interesting question. Maybe an 11th score that is some sort of formula to account for GC/RGC to competitions competed in ratio.

As far as ranking teams in other groupings, I don't necessarily think their needs to be a separate TOY award schedule for different categories but the ability to rank them so such teams can see how we stack up against similar teams would be great. That they presented the data you quoted shows they have the info and could produce it if they wanted to.

rolfejr
12-04-2013, 05:27 PM
Just a quick review of the top 25 TOY teams according to KCBS and reviewed through COMP BBQ.com looking at the number of contests scored:

Contests / Teams / # of contests
More Than 40 1 team (41)
31-40 6 teams (31,32,33,34,34,39)
25 - 30 10 teams (25,26,26,26,27,27, 27, 27,29,30)
20-24 5 teams ( 22,23,23,24,21 )
less than 20 3 teams (19, 19, 16)

The top team went 41 times.
Only two teams in the top ten went less than 30 times and only one in the top five (26).

The three teams with less than twenty contests were all in the top twenty overall.

Don't know what it means, but it says something.

gettinbasted
12-04-2013, 05:37 PM
Unfortunately, not all contests are created equal. If you have a GC/contests ratio it will just lead to a much more careful selection process and point chasing teams will avoid each other (cherry pick). At least the current system is forcing them all to cook head to head this weekend. What point chasing team would cook the Royal Open? It would almost certainly hurt your ratio.

71-South
12-04-2013, 08:45 PM
Add the results of the team's best 8 finishes. Then, teams that did lots of comps would still have the advantage of trying to up their total after 8 comps by scoring better than their 8th highest, but teams with fewer comps wouldn't be completely eliminated before the season began. Someone posted something similar above.

Bubba
12-05-2013, 06:20 AM
Until you have a competition circuit that has a set number of contests where all teams compete against each other and count all finishes you cannot have a true champion.

Rich Parker
12-05-2013, 12:29 PM
Until you have a competition circuit that has a set number of contests where all teams compete against each other and count all finishes you cannot have a true champion.

I for one would call any of the past ToY winners true champions as they worked their tales off for it and deserve it.

What changes do you think should occur to the ToY program that would increase participation and competitiveness?

Cayman1
12-05-2013, 02:30 PM
Not sure there could ever be a consensus on how to compute ToY. I disagree with the way my USGA handicap is computed, but I have no doubt the USGA has a rational for it the same as the KCBS Board has a rational for the current ToY system. Probably numerous ways to do it, but someone has to decide. I'll bet the board has considered many different methods and has chosen this one, for now.

What about a Pro ToY for say __ (pick a number) and more contests and Semi Pro for less than than that? GC ToY and RGC ToY?

Bubba
12-05-2013, 07:04 PM
I ment no disrespect to any of the past winners they surely deserve everything that they accomplished.

ShencoSmoke
12-05-2013, 08:32 PM
At the very least I would like to see a third column added to the TOY webpage that shows how many comps each team has participated in. For those of us that do less than 10, we could scroll down and see how we stack up against teams that have competed in the same # of comps.

INmitch
12-05-2013, 08:41 PM
At the very least I would like to see a third column added to the TOY webpage that shows how many comps each team has participated in. For those of us that do less than 10, we could scroll down and see how we stack up against teams that have competed in the same # of comps.

I like this idea. That way you could keep track and make sure all your points are accounted for. I took the time last week to add my points and a few didn't match up to KCBS standings. Don't get me wrong because I couldn't give a chit. But there was a bug in the system last summer were it didn't show me (and a few other teams) even competing in a few comps.

ShencoSmoke
12-05-2013, 08:46 PM
I like this idea. That way you could keep track and make sure all your points are accounted for. I took the time last week to add my points and a few didn't match up to KCBS standings. Don't get me wrong because I couldn't give a chit. But there was a bug in the system last summer were it didn't show me (and a few other teams) even competing in a few comps.

Yep, before they started tracking by kcbs # we were listed as 3 separate teams.

Coz
12-08-2013, 01:49 PM
Yep, before they started tracking by kcbs # we were listed as 3 separate teams.

I think we are missing one also . It wont make much of a difference for us either other then some bragging rights here.