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White Dog BBQ
11-15-2013, 06:50 PM
I haven't seen anything on here, but I saw something on Facebook indicating that Mike Peters proposed changing the new pork rule at the 11th hour. Did it pass? Do we know what the pork rule would be next year?

Erik

Rich Parker
11-15-2013, 07:14 PM
I listened to the mp3 and it was changed again by a motion brought up by Mike Peters but there will be another meeting in two weeks where it will probably change again.

Fat Freddy
11-15-2013, 07:44 PM
I listened to the mp3 and it was changed again by a motion brought up by Mike Peters but there will be another meeting in two weeks where it will probably change again.

How did it change this time?:confused::doh:

:frusty::frusty::frusty:

CivilWarBBQ
11-15-2013, 08:54 PM
New rule will allow any type of pork, including McRib. (j/k)

Funtimebbq
11-15-2013, 10:06 PM
On the KCBS website, there are quick notes from the BOD meeting. Looks like two votes for the pork rule were taken and one passed. The Mike Peters rule called for no returning of pork to the smoker once it was parted.

I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out). Once parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, those portions may not be returned to the cooker or grill.
Second Mike Budai
Motion Pass
6 yes, Mike B, Randy B, Kim C, Wayne L, Tana S, Mike P
4 No, Steve F, Don H, Dave C, Jeff S

The second vote called for the returning of parted pork be up to the cook.

Jeff Stith
I make the motion that the set of rules for 2014 be officially finalized. There were only two rules applying to cooks that were passed as motions to be changed during this year.
1. Rule #12 regarding garnish was changed in wording. The last sentence currently says: "Improper garnish shall receive a score of one (1) on appearance. The word "improper" has been changed to "illegal".
2. The pork rule has been changed to read: Pork: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole /9bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."
Second Steve Farrin
3-Yes Steve F, Dave C, Jeff S
7-no Don H, Tana S, Mike B, Randy B, Kim C, Wayne L, Mike P

Motion fails as is.

Funny thing is both of those votes have a note from whoever took the quick notes that states, Consensus of the BOD is to put the 5 lb back in and allow the meat to be put back on the smoker. I personally don't understand how that statement can be made about the Mike Peters' motion if it specifically indicates the pork cannot be returned to the smoker. Regardless, they have set aside both votes for another meeting later this month.

Icekub
11-16-2013, 05:25 AM
New rule will allow any type of pork, including McRib. (j/k)

This will significantly cut down on my box building time! :heh:

Rich Parker
11-16-2013, 07:38 AM
On the KCBS website, there are quick notes from the BOD meeting. Looks like two votes for the pork rule were taken and one passed. The Mike Peters rule called for no returning of pork to the smoker once it was parted.

I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out). Once parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, those portions may not be returned to the cooker or grill.
Second Mike Budai
Motion Pass
6 yes, Mike B, Randy B, Kim C, Wayne L, Tana S, Mike P
4 No, Steve F, Don H, Dave C, Jeff S

The second vote called for the returning of parted pork be up to the cook.

Jeff Stith
I make the motion that the set of rules for 2014 be officially finalized. There were only two rules applying to cooks that were passed as motions to be changed during this year.
1. Rule #12 regarding garnish was changed in wording. The last sentence currently says: "Improper garnish shall receive a score of one (1) on appearance. The word "improper" has been changed to "illegal".
2. The pork rule has been changed to read: Pork: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole /9bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."
Second Steve Farrin
3-Yes Steve F, Dave C, Jeff S
7-no Don H, Tana S, Mike B, Randy B, Kim C, Wayne L, Mike P

Motion fails as is.

Funny thing is both of those votes have a note from whoever took the quick notes that states, Consensus of the BOD is to put the 5 lb back in and allow the meat to be put back on the smoker. I personally don't understand how that statement can be made about the Mike Peters' motion if it specifically indicates the pork cannot be returned to the smoker. Regardless, they have set aside both votes for another meeting later this month.

His motion is once it parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded it can't be returned but that would still let you cook and then separate and return to the cooker as long as it doesn't fall in to the items listed.

rxcellentq
11-16-2013, 08:35 AM
"Once parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, those portions may not be returned to the cooker or grill."

it looks like you may be able to cook two buts cut the MM off when you want the return the rest. is that what they mean by "those portions"?

Funtimebbq
11-16-2013, 09:37 AM
Isn't that just one very large "chunk". If his proposal is as stated by Rich, then the rule needs to be written so there is no question as to its meaning.

Rich Parker
11-16-2013, 10:39 AM
Isn't that just one very large "chunk". If his proposal is as stated by Rich, then the rule needs to be written so there is no question as to its meaning.

This is the same as any law of society there is always a different interpretation of a rule. Do we really want lawyers involved in our cooks?

We will never come up with a new rule that will keep it bbq vs grilling, maintain an advanced skill set, and not be written in a manner that won't be torn apart by one person or another.

Butcher BBQ
11-16-2013, 12:17 PM
His motion is once it parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded it can't be returned but that would still let you cook and then separate and return to the cooker as long as it doesn't fall in to the items listed.

It must weigh 5 pounds minimum.

Rich Parker
11-16-2013, 01:13 PM
It must weigh 5 pounds minimum.

I read it as it must be 5lb minimum before cooking. I don't consider a whole money muscle as a chunk, cutlet, slices, medallions, etc

I think we are looking at the next tax law. :-D

SmokeUSum
11-16-2013, 04:43 PM
I read it as it must be 5lb minimum before cooking. I don't consider a whole money muscle as a chunk, cutlet, slices, medallions, etc

I think we are looking at the next tax law. :-D

How could you not see the MM as a chunk? Reading the proposed change/motion, it would appear that once any part of the meat as a whole was taken, cut, pulled, whatever, that NONE of it could go back... That's the way it reads it me, but I've been reading and writing legal-ez for a few years, so I'm not sure if I'm breaking down the statement too much.

Fishin4bass723
11-16-2013, 04:59 PM
I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out). Once parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, those portions may not be returned to the cooker or grill.
Second Mike Budai
Motion Pass
6 yes, Mike B, Randy B, Kim C, Wayne L, Tana S, Mike P
4 No, Steve F, Don H, Dave C, Jeff S

As I read and reread I keep coming up with the same thing, it depends on what the interpretation of "those portions" is. If that means once I cut the MM out I can put the rest back on for my pulled, I like it less meat I have to buy.

YankeeBBQ
11-16-2013, 05:56 PM
On the KCBS website, there are quick notes from the BOD meeting. Looks like two votes for the pork rule were taken and one passed. The Mike Peters rule called for no returning of pork to the smoker once it was parted.

I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out). Once parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, those portions may not be returned to the cooker or grill.
Second Mike Budai
Motion Pass
6 yes, Mike B, Randy B, Kim C, Wayne L, Tana S, Mike P
4 No, Steve F, Don H, Dave C, Jeff S

The second vote called for the returning of parted pork be up to the cook.

Jeff Stith
I make the motion that the set of rules for 2014 be officially finalized. There were only two rules applying to cooks that were passed as motions to be changed during this year.
1. Rule #12 regarding garnish was changed in wording. The last sentence currently says: "Improper garnish shall receive a score of one (1) on appearance. The word "improper" has been changed to "illegal".
2. The pork rule has been changed to read: Pork: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole /9bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."
Second Steve Farrin
3-Yes Steve F, Dave C, Jeff S
7-no Don H, Tana S, Mike B, Randy B, Kim C, Wayne L, Mike P

Motion fails as is.

Funny thing is both of those votes have a note from whoever took the quick notes that states, Consensus of the BOD is to put the 5 lb back in and allow the meat to be put back on the smoker. I personally don't understand how that statement can be made about the Mike Peters' motion if it specifically indicates the pork cannot be returned to the smoker. Regardless, they have set aside both votes for another meeting later this month.

Actually the quick notes are incomplete. Tana changed her vote on mike peters motion and it was defeated. As it stands now the pork rule is in limbo.

Funtimebbq
11-16-2013, 08:47 PM
Thanks for the clarification Steve. The way I read the quick notes was that Tana asked to change her vote and the vote to allow her to change was defeated, not the prior vote on the actual motion by Mike. Anyway, good luck with the next go around on the pork rule. My suggestion is to not change it from this year's version.

Rub
11-17-2013, 08:54 AM
I propose that to keep it simple and easy to understand they add an official "FAQ" to the rules. Example:

Rules FAQs

Q: The way I interpret the pork rule, I can cut the money muscle off when it's done then return the rest of the butt to the smoker. Is this right?
A: No. You cannot return it to the smoker or continue to cook it in any way.

Q: Can I separate the money muscle from the butt before I cook it?
A: No, they must remain connected.


Easy peasy.

Ford
11-17-2013, 09:21 AM
I read it as it must be 5lb minimum before cooking. I don't consider a whole money muscle as a chunk, cutlet, slices, medallions, etc

I think we are looking at the next tax law. :-D

Rich is right. Listen to the recording. They say mm can be parted out once cooked and rest can go back on

Ford
11-17-2013, 09:24 AM
Unless a new rule is approved prior to the end of November the rule stay the same as today. A motion to accept the 2 rule changes was defeated.

YankeeBBQ
11-17-2013, 11:44 AM
Unless a new rule is approved prior to the end of November the rule stay the same as today. A motion to accept the 2 rule changes was defeated.

I'm not a lawyer but I think I could argue that the pork rule has been changed to:

Pork: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole /9bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

We voted and passed that a while back. Jeff's motion was simply to finalize the rules so there can be no further changes and all appropriate documentation can be published. The fact that it was defeated does not mean the change in pork rule was defeated it just means that we can continue to propose rule changes till the end of the season.

columbia1
11-17-2013, 07:39 PM
I'm not a lawyer but I think I could argue that the pork rule has been changed to:

Pork: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole /9bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

We voted and passed that a while back. Jeff's motion was simply to finalize the rules so there can be no further changes and all appropriate documentation can be published. The fact that it was defeated does not mean the change in pork rule was defeated it just means that we can continue to propose rule changes till the end of the season.
Thanks Steve, I just hope the final rule is easy to decipher, this new stuff just seems to open new questions, to, me, I just want to know if I can separate the money muscle from the butt, and be able to throw the rest of the butt back on the pit to further cook.

Funtimebbq
11-17-2013, 09:28 PM
I think it may be easier to just take a knife to the smoker, cut and remove the money muscle and leave the rest of the butt on the smoker. Saves time and eliminates the chance of dropping the butt while handling.

On second thought, that may be a little difficult if the butt is foiled.

Q-Dat
11-18-2013, 12:28 AM
Ya know.......its a funny thing.

When the proposed rule gets worded simply, then people don't like that the intent of it can be disputed one way or the other.

But then, let someone attempt to tie up all of the loose ends in the wording so tightly that there can be no possibility of anyone twisting it to bend/break the rule, and then that person put it out there as a suggestion, they get told that short and simple is better.

Need proof?
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=166464

chambersuac
11-18-2013, 03:08 AM
Since trimming is allowed prior to cooking, can I trim everything off except the MM and just cook that? It's just a very heavily trimmed butt! :)

NRA4Life
11-18-2013, 05:59 AM
Since trimming is allowed prior to cooking, can I trim everything off except the MM and just cook that? It's just a very heavily trimmed butt! :)

Sure, if it weighs more than 5 lbs after trimming.

chambersuac
11-18-2013, 06:29 AM
Sure, if it weighs more than 5 lbs after trimming.

Pre-trimming is what is weighed at inspection...

BTW, I was kidding, but someone could try it, huh?

New Pal Frank
11-18-2013, 07:06 AM
On the KCBS website, there are quick notes from the BOD meeting. Looks like two votes for the pork rule were taken and one passed. The Mike Peters rule called for no returning of pork to the smoker once it was parted.

I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out). Once parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, those portions may not be returned to the cooker or grill.
Second Mike Budai
Motion Pass
6 yes, Mike B, Randy B, Kim C, Wayne L, Tana S, Mike P
4 No, Steve F, Don H, Dave C, Jeff S

The second vote called for the returning of parted pork be up to the cook.

.



I enlarged the font of the 5# rule Notice the . in there. By this rule, you can trim off thre whole butt except the Money Muscle.

Smokedelic
11-18-2013, 07:31 AM
Sure, if it weighs more than 5 lbs after trimming.
There is no 5 lb. minimum in the new rule, so trimming a pork butt down to just the money muscle, and then cooking that money muscle piece whole, is within the rules.

Just another prime example of why the 5 lb. minimum needs to be reinstated.:thumb:

TooSaucedToPork
11-18-2013, 07:43 AM
I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out). Once parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, those portions may not be returned to the cooker or grill.

PERSONALLY, This is how I would word it...but hell, I just cook.

I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum PRE-TRIMMED Weight of AT LEAST five (5) pounds. After trimming, THE pork BUTT, ROAST, OR SHOULDER shall be cooked IN A whole STATE, WITH ALL MUSCLE GROUPS ATTACHED (bone in or bone out). Once SEPARATED IN ANY WAY FROM A WHOLE STATE, INCUDING into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, NO portion may be returned to the cooker or grill.

Podge
11-18-2013, 07:51 AM
just make it illegal to turn in slices. Just pulled, chunked or chopped pork entries allowed. Besides, I have yet to find a BBQ joint who serves sliced money muscle.

Slamdunkpro
11-18-2013, 09:48 AM
I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out). Once parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, those portions may not be returned to the cooker or grill.

PERSONALLY, This is how I would word it...but hell, I just cook.

I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum PRE-TRIMMED Weight of AT LEAST five (5) pounds. After trimming, THE pork BUTT, ROAST, OR SHOULDER shall be cooked IN A whole STATE, WITH ALL MUSCLE GROUPS ATTACHED (bone in or bone out). Once SEPARATED IN ANY WAY FROM A WHOLE STATE, INCUDING into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, NO portion may be returned to the cooker or grill.

just make it illegal to turn in slices. Just pulled, chunked or chopped pork entries allowed. Besides, I have yet to find a BBQ joint who serves sliced money muscle.

Truth is since there isn't any enforcement, none of this matters. When was the last time you saw a meat inspector with a scale? When was the last time you were spot checked?

markG
11-18-2013, 10:09 AM
just make it illegal to turn in slices. Just pulled, chunked or chopped pork entries allowed. Besides, I have yet to find a BBQ joint who serves sliced money muscle.

"Just pulled, chunked or chopped pork entries allowed." would open up a huge can of worms. We would have judges and reps trying to define a pull that looks sliced or a chunk that looks sliced and then they will have to make a rule for that!

Show me a BBQ joint that serves gloppy sweet sauced Chicken FrankenThighs that we make and that is probably the same joint that serves MM. Why can't they just leave the rule the way it is and it will keep us from having to tote a grill to cook the money muscle on next year! :heh:

Jorge
11-18-2013, 10:23 AM
just make it illegal to turn in slices. Just pulled, chunked or chopped pork entries allowed. Besides, I have yet to find a BBQ joint who serves sliced money muscle.

Study Hall at TGIFridays:wink::boxing:

MAP
11-18-2013, 10:27 AM
"Just pulled, chunked or chopped pork entries allowed." would open up a huge can of worms. We would have judges and reps trying to define a pull that looks sliced or a chunk that looks sliced and then they will have to make a rule for that!

Show me a BBQ joint that serves gloppy sweet sauced Chicken FrankenThighs that we make and that is probably the same joint that serves MM. Why can't they just leave the rule the way it is and it will keep us from having to tote a grill to cook the money muscle on next year! :heh:

That may be the reason my chicken scores suck. I cant stand Sauced chicken I have to force myself to taste it. Just for ****s amd giggles at one contest next year I am going to turn in chicken the way I like it and see what happens.

markG
11-18-2013, 10:45 AM
That may be the reason my chicken scores suck. I cant stand Sauced chicken I have to force myself to taste it. Just for ****s amd giggles at one contest next year I am going to turn in chicken the way I like it and see what happens.


My wife says the same thing to me. She thinks if the judges taste real chicken they may reward it with a good score!

Rich Parker
11-18-2013, 11:41 AM
Truth is since there isn't any enforcement, none of this matters. When was the last time you saw a meat inspector with a scale? When was the last time you were spot checked?

Well there is enforcement if the rep or someone sees it and brings it to the rep they can enforce the rule.

I see it as every other law in society. It is against the law to speed but the only way I am going to get a ticket is if a police office (in our case rep) or another citizen (in our case another team) watches me speed and reports it.

Rules are made for the general society to follow. You will always have someone that will break that rule and if we police ourselves than that pool will be reduced.

Rich Parker
11-18-2013, 11:42 AM
I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out). Once parted into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, those portions may not be returned to the cooker or grill.

PERSONALLY, This is how I would word it...but hell, I just cook.

I propose the following motion for consideration:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum PRE-TRIMMED Weight of AT LEAST five (5) pounds. After trimming, THE pork BUTT, ROAST, OR SHOULDER shall be cooked IN A whole STATE, WITH ALL MUSCLE GROUPS ATTACHED (bone in or bone out). Once SEPARATED IN ANY WAY FROM A WHOLE STATE, INCUDING into slices, medallions, cutlets, chunks, pulled or shredded portions, NO portion may be returned to the cooker or grill.

I definitely think your wording is better when I glanced through it but it seems the gist of it as that you can't return the pork back to the cooker once separated. If that is true why don't we leave the same pork rule on the books and leave it at that since it achieves the same thing?

markG
11-18-2013, 11:50 AM
Well there is enforcement if the rep or someone sees it and brings it to the rep they can enforce the rule.

I see it as every other law in society. It is against the law to speed but the only way I am going to get a ticket is if a police office (in our case rep) or another citizen (in our case another team) watches me speed and reports it.

Rules are made for the general society to follow. You will always have someone that will break that rule and if we police ourselves than that pool will be reduced.

Except in PGA golf. They still play by an honor system where their word means something. I have seen several instances this year where a PGA pro was disqualified after they admitted to making a rule infraction that the marshalls didn't see. I have yet to see a BBQ Pro admit to parting pork or reheating pork (I have seen it this year) after it comes off of the cooker. I just cook my cook and let the chips fall where they may and try to play within whatever rules KCBS sets. I think they do a pretty good job at it and we will figure it out in 2014 I guess.

BMerrill
11-18-2013, 01:29 PM
I propose the following motion for consideration:

PORK:
Pork is defined as the Whole Shoulder or one of the two major portions thereof commonly know as the Boston Butt (upper half), or the Picnic roast (lower half), but no others.
After trimming, pork must have a minimum weight of five (5) pounds and can be bone-in or boneless.
If boneless, the meat must be tied together with butchers twine or similar means to the original rectangular shape before the bone was removed.
Pork must be cooked until done with all muscle groups completely intact or bound together.
Once separated, no portion thereof can be left on or returned to the cooker for any reason, including for reheating.

TooSaucedToPork
11-18-2013, 01:53 PM
I propose the following motion for consideration:

PORK:
Pork is defined as the Whole Shoulder or one of the two major portions thereof commonly know as the Boston Butt (upper half), or the Picnic roast (lower half), but no others.
After trimming, pork must have a minimum weight of five (5) pounds and can be bone-in or boneless.
If boneless, the meat must be tied together with butchers twine or similar means to the original rectangular shape before the bone was removed.
Pork must be cooked until done with all muscle groups completely intact or bound together.
Once separated, no portion thereof can be left on or returned to the cooker for any reason, including for reheating.


You are getting TOO specific and eliminating a fair cooking technique. As long as it is not seperated or returned to the cooker in an unwhole state, I believe it should be fair game. making cooks use Twine and tying up the meat is a little overboard brother :becky:

TooSaucedToPork
11-18-2013, 02:12 PM
The only way to enforce anything in this sport is with the PORK GESTAPO.

I suggest that a rule amendment be added creating the Pork Gestapo. They will be volunteers, made up of overflow judges and the thousands of fans that sign up after watching an advertisement after every episode of BBQ Pitmasters. Their leaders will be crotchety bastards, never happy with anything but the black and white of the rules.

They will be assigned in force to the field of battle...popping their heads into every stroke of your knife, into every opening of your cooker. They will be tireless in pursuit of the rules, making sure each infraction is brought to the reps and organizer. They will find things such as the expiration tag on your fire extinguisher...or possibly the fact that between entries you didn't sanitize your table with bleach solution....

Yes they will find every single infraction you do...

Honor is paramount in BBQ. We used to hold it in high regard, yet the BBQ Explosion has brought glory hounds and honor less fools into our midst, all searching for a piece of plastic with a pig on top. Honor and integrity are alive and well in most of us...yet with popularity comes those that cheat, and they should be identified, vilified and banned, as there is no room for that in BBQ...create an organization to hunt down and root out the Beasts of BBQ

reality check.
There is no answer. You can't enforce every rule without pissing everyone off. You just gotta hope the guy next to you believes in Honor, Integrity, and Fair Play.

Sawdustguy
11-18-2013, 02:52 PM
My wife says the same thing to me. She thinks if the judges taste real chicken they may reward it with a good score!

Where have you been? You should know by now that KCBS contests are BBQ sauce contests, not meat contests.

Slamdunkpro
11-18-2013, 08:03 PM
I see it as every other law in society. It is against the law to speed but the only way I am going to get a ticket is if a police office (in our case rep) or another citizen (in our case another team) watches me speed and reports it.

Everyone uses this analogy but it's more like the speed limit is 60 and the police never ever go out on the highway, so the legislature wants to solve the speeding problem by changing the speed limit to "60 - sometimes".

hogzillas
11-18-2013, 08:18 PM
Maybe we should do what NASCAR does & put an official in each teams tent then if they do something wrong black flag them or dock them points:mod:

White Dog BBQ
11-18-2013, 10:33 PM
To me, the biggest issue is that we are 1.5 months from the start of the 2014 season, and no one seems to have any idea what the pork rule will be next year. With the epic TotY races we've had the last several years, teams will likely be starting earlier than ever in 2014 trying to rack up points. How are they supposed to prepare if they don't even know what rules they will be competing under next year?

KCBS and competition BBQ have experienced incredible growth the last several years, but I have to wonder how long it can continue when we keep seeing things like this. Why should a sponsor commit a significant portion of its advertising budget to a sanctioning body that can't even set its rules in a timely manner?

Alexa RnQ
11-18-2013, 11:20 PM
How are they supposed to prepare if they don't even know what rules they will be competing under next year?
Wellll, I dunno, a team could cook a bone-in butt over 5 pounds and part it out as they were boxing it. You know, like BBQ.

Slamdunkpro
11-18-2013, 11:32 PM
KCBS is better off getting it right vs putting a flawed rule in place. The 2014 rule was/is flawed. The current rule along with enforcement is the best solution at this point and before everyone starts in about pork Nazi's and NASCAR style referees again think about what's really needed; 5 or 10 random spot checks in the morning of turn in's isn't that time consuming. They can but done when the clock is being run around - "Hi clock check and you've been selected for a random pork check - please show me your pork" "Sure, here ya go" - opens cooker or hold box - shows legal whole butt or legal separated butt out of the cooker. "Thanks very much - good luck today"

Takes 2 minutes at most.

White Dog BBQ
11-19-2013, 06:57 AM
Wellll, I dunno, a team could cook a bone-in butt over 5 pounds and part it out as they were boxing it. You know, like BBQ.

Well, I dunno, I would like to know what cooking method I should be practicing for next year. :heh:

I really couldn't care less which rule is in effect for next year, I just want to know what that is. While I have never understood why cooking a phosphate-injected, butter-braised pork butt still qualifies as BBQ, but the second you part it out it becomes something else, whatever, I can work with it. Likewise, if if I can part out to my heart's content, fine, I'll find a way to make it work. But for heaven's sake just tell me what the rule is!

Mike, I agree 100% with your spot check idea. I don't think the rules should be changed to accommodate cheating. While I wouldn't mind having the ability to put my pork back on after it is pulled and sliced to heat up the product, firm up the bark, set the sauce, etc. (and for both cooking and food safety reasons, I think it's silly that we can't do that for the last 20 minutes before turn-in), whatever, I can live with it. Just settle it, try something for a year, and see what happens.

DawgPhan
11-19-2013, 07:19 AM
To me, the biggest issue is that we are 1.5 months from the start of the 2014 season, and no one seems to have any idea what the pork rule will be next year. With the epic TotY races we've had the last several years, teams will likely be starting earlier than ever in 2014 trying to rack up points. How are they supposed to prepare if they don't even know what rules they will be competing under next year?

KCBS and competition BBQ have experienced incredible growth the last several years, but I have to wonder how long it can continue when we keep seeing things like this. Why should a sponsor commit a significant portion of its advertising budget to a sanctioning body that can't even set its rules in a timely manner?


I really doubt that the teams that will compete for Pork ToY in KCBS are fretting over how they are going to cook their pork come January.

Teamfour
11-19-2013, 07:44 AM
They can but done when the clock is being run around - "Hi clock check and you've been selected for a random pork check - please show me your pork" "Sure, here ya go" - opens cooker or hold box - shows legal whole butt or legal separated butt out of the cooker. "Thanks very much - good luck today"

Takes 2 minutes at most.

2 minutes later a portion of the legally separated butt is back in the cooker.:roll:

TooSaucedToPork
11-19-2013, 07:57 AM
The current rule along with enforcement is the best solution at this point and before everyone starts in about pork Nazi's .

I take it you didn't catch the :heh: sarcasm :heh:?

White Dog BBQ
11-19-2013, 08:11 AM
I really doubt that the teams that will compete for Pork ToY in KCBS are fretting over how they are going to cook their pork come January.

Huh. I know several teans that are practicing now for next year, some that will make a push for TotY and some that won't. You don't think this rule will affect their cooking methods?

Jorge
11-19-2013, 08:35 AM
Huh. I know several teans that are practicing now for next year, some that will make a push for TotY and some that won't. You don't think this rule will affect their cooking methods?

Some of those usual contenders have been working on alternate methods for a while, I guarantee it. A rules change may change their method, but I don't expect any dramatic changes. Those cooks that are at the top every year are there because they are great cooks.

If a rules change had any impact, I'd expect the gap between top cooks and the next tier to increase no matter what the change is. The best cooks will adapt more quickly, probably work harder at it, and the results will reflect that.

Jacked UP BBQ
11-19-2013, 09:47 AM
Why does the KCBS have rules anyway, no one polices or enforces them. People are more concerned about a water supply being close to their site than a guy getting his cooker back up to temp in the morning with a propane torch with his meat still on it. I like to part my butt and return to the cooker, we obviously no longer do it and results haven't changed, it was just part of the morning motion. Allow me to part and I will, tell me I cant and my results wont change. But the fighting over all these rules is crazy, because never once have I seen a team DQ'd for "breaking a rule" beside for what was put or not put in the box. Just keep cooking what you cook, nothing will change.

Slamdunkpro
11-19-2013, 10:37 AM
I take it you didn't catch the :heh: sarcasm :heh:?

Why yes I did :butt:
:behindsofa:

:becky:

Sawdustguy
11-19-2013, 10:48 AM
I really doubt that the teams that will compete for Pork ToY in KCBS are fretting over how they are going to cook their pork come January.

+1000 I have a feeling that the give a chit quotient is very low for the better teams.

Rookie'48
11-19-2013, 10:34 PM
The KCBS Board of Directors (bod@kcbs.us) and the Rules Committee (rules@kcbs.us) are willing, even glad, to hear their members' thoughts on rules changes.

Last year at the Open Rules meeting not one person there spoke up in favor of keeping the parting rule. Out of all of the e-mail responses to the Rules Committee regarding the pork rule not one stated that they were in favor of keeping it the way it was. Each and every member who mentioned the pork parting rule said to ditch it.

So - loaded with that information from the members - I proposed, and the BoD passed, a new pork rule. After a little tweaking Jeff re-submitted the proposed rule and it was passed by the Board. Jeff has now asked that the Board give their final approval to the rules changes for the 2014 BBQ season. That motion failed :confused: :confused: :confused:.

MikeJ65
11-19-2013, 10:35 PM
Honestly, is there a difference between cutting off a MM and putting the rest of the butt back in for pulled vs. cooking two butts, one for optimal MM and a second for optimal pulled?

It appears to me that the 'spirit' of the pork rule is to make you cook a whole butt well, but in reality, it just means that teams are cooking multiple butts to different specs. Having to cook it whole means nothing if you can cook 4 butts and pick and choose what parts of each go in the box.

Rich Parker
11-20-2013, 05:36 AM
The KCBS Board of Directors (bod@kcbs.us) and the Rules Committee (rules@kcbs.us) are willing, even glad, to hear their members' thoughts on rules changes.

Last year at the Open Rules meeting not one person there spoke up in favor of keeping the parting rule. Out of all of the e-mail responses to the Rules Committee regarding the pork rule not one stated that they were in favor of keeping it the way it was. Each and every member who mentioned the pork parting rule said to ditch it.

So - loaded with that information from the members - I proposed, and the BoD passed, a new pork rule. After a little tweaking Jeff re-submitted the proposed rule and it was passed by the Board. Jeff has now asked that the Board give their final approval to the rules changes for the 2014 BBQ season. That motion failed :confused: :confused: :confused:.

From what I was told there were under 50 people there. Even if all were cooks that is a very low percentage to our registered team count. Especially to be making assumptions that is how the majority feels.

I do not want to see KCBS change rules just to reduce the skillsets needed to cook pork or any meat.

BMerrill
11-20-2013, 01:26 PM
Last year at the Open Rules meeting not one person there spoke up in favor of keeping the parting rule. Out of all of the e-mail responses to the Rules Committee regarding the pork rule not one stated that they were in favor of keeping it the way it was. Each and every member who mentioned the pork parting rule said to ditch it.



From what you said, the new rule should read like this.

Pork shall come from the shoulder.

Fat Freddy
11-20-2013, 01:53 PM
I really doubt that the teams that will compete for Pork ToY in KCBS are fretting over how they are going to cook their pork come January.

I slightly disagree with this statement. ONLY because yesterday I was on the phone with the main cook from a top team and we were discussing other stuff and our practices cooks and he made the comment he doesnt know how to practice/ change his pork yet so for now he is going to work with the other meats.

And I have another buddy of mine who calls me fairly often and he is an up and coming team. he did well this year and plans on making a serious run next year. At least once a week he asks me if I have heard any updates on the pork rule.

Both these guys can and will go by whatever rule is in place even if it is the same as this season and previous seasons but it sounds like they might want to practice to learn any and all options.

As for me, I am not a good enough cook to worry about it one way or the other. I will mess it up no matter which way I cook it.

BMerrill
11-20-2013, 02:15 PM
The original intent of the pork rule was for the PitMaster to demonstrate their abilities in cooking the whole shoulder or one of the 2 halves typically available (the whole picnic or the whole butt). Trimming into muscle groups was never the intention. The cook became creative and further separated the shoulder into muscle groups making it easier to cook. The rule changed by add minimum weight and no parting. Once again the cook's become very creative in their trimming by using partial parting into separate muscle groups than demonstrating actual cooking skills. The rule has been stretching beyond its flexibility in a sport centered on honesty and integrity than rule watchdogs in every camp.


Proposed rule.

Pork shall be the whole shoulder or one of the two halves (Picnic or Butt) having a minimum weight of 5 pounds after trimming. Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited.

71-South
11-20-2013, 02:52 PM
I just hope when this is settled, someone from KCBS is able to answer definitively what is and isn't legal. I could care less how it ends up. I just don't want to get DQ'd over a misunderstanding.

Scottie
11-20-2013, 02:58 PM
I really doubt that the teams that will compete for Pork ToY in KCBS are fretting over how they are going to cook their pork come January.



I wouldn't count on that.... I know a former pork TOY that is practicing ....

Podge
11-20-2013, 03:19 PM
If I can cook separately, you damn well bet for sure I'll be developing ways to only cook 2 butts instead of 4!!.. All on the smoker, all low and slow, so don't try to kick my a$$ for 'grilling'.. Every time we pull butts after turn in, it's so damn tough on the muscles we don't cook, it's just a waste of not making an entire, good quality pork. If it wasn't for my wife, I'd just throw them shoe soles in the trash.

columbia1
11-20-2013, 04:13 PM
If I can cook separately, you damn well bet for sure I'll be developing ways to only cook 2 butts instead of 4!!.. All on the smoker, all low and slow, so don't try to kick my a$$ for 'grilling'.. Every time we pull butts after turn in, it's so damn tough on the muscles we don't cook, it's just a waste of not making an entire, good quality pork. If it wasn't for my wife, I'd just throw them shoe soles in the trash.
100% agree, we too use an off-set and cook four butts, two trimmed for pulled/chunks, and two trimmed for the MM. It sucks having two butts that are too under cooked to pull left over(the MM butts) to take home or serve for public sampling. It is a total waste. It would be nice, and cheaper for us if we could cook only two butts, separate the MM when it hits 185'ish and put the reminder back on the pit until they tender up enough to pull or chuck.

MikeJ65
11-20-2013, 06:54 PM
The original intent of the pork rule was for the PitMaster to demonstrate their abilities in cooking the whole shoulder or one of the 2 halves typically available (the whole picnic or the whole butt). Trimming into muscle groups was never the intention. The cook became creative and further separated the shoulder into muscle groups making it easier to cook. The rule changed by add minimum weight and no parting. Once again the cook's become very creative in their trimming by using partial parting into separate muscle groups than demonstrating actual cooking skills. The rule has been stretching beyond its flexibility in a sport centered on honesty and integrity than rule watchdogs in every camp.


I'm not sure how turning in select pieces of 4 butts (trimmed and cooked differently) demonstrates the ability to cook a whole butt. The only way to evaluate a cook's ability to cook the whole shoulder/butt would be to limit everyone to one piece and have them turn it in whole.

Honestly, making the rule simply "the pork must come from the shoulder" is good enough for me and would put it in line with the other three meats.

ShencoSmoke
11-20-2013, 09:06 PM
Honestly, making the rule simply "the pork must come from the shoulder" is good enough for me and would put it in line with the other three meats.

The butchers would love that, they could charge as much as they want for the MM by itself and everyone would pay it. Teams would cook 1 whole butt and 6 MM's:wink:

ShencoSmoke
11-20-2013, 09:18 PM
Thinking out loud here....has there been any discussion about limiting teams to only cooking 2 butts (and a simple "5 lb min, has to be from the shoulder rule")? That way everyone is on the same playing field and the MM harvesting issue goes away. You simply cook 2 butts and turn in the best parts, whatever that may be. Only challenge would be how to handle when teams cook extra meat for people choice, there would be no way to separate the KCBS meat from PC meat.

MikeJ65
11-20-2013, 10:38 PM
Thinking out loud here....has there been any discussion about limiting teams to only cooking 2 butts (and a simple "5 lb min, has to be from the shoulder rule")? That way everyone is on the same playing field and the MM harvesting issue goes away. You simply cook 2 butts and turn in the best parts, whatever that may be. Only challenge would be how to handle when teams cook extra meat for people choice, there would be no way to separate the KCBS meat from PC meat.

Everyone would still be cooking one for MM and one for pulled/chunks. If you limit it to one, you would see less MM turned in and it would be lower quality. I'm not sure that is a positive.

The only real difference if parting is allowed is that people will cook fewer butts. For all the talk of grilled MM or pork sausage, all you will see is the same boxes turned in and less pork in the trash.

Icekub
11-20-2013, 11:34 PM
If I can cook separately, you damn well bet for sure I'll be developing ways to only cook 2 butts instead of 4!!.. All on the smoker, all low and slow, so don't try to kick my a$$ for 'grilling'.. Every time we pull butts after turn in, it's so damn tough on the muscles we don't cook, it's just a waste of not making an entire, good quality pork. If it wasn't for my wife, I'd just throw them shoe soles in the trash.


This is how I feel about the rule. Like many, we cook 2 butts for MM (which the rest is trashed) and 2 butts for pulled, chunks, etc. I don't like to waste food but I'm not going to risk being DQ'd just to satisfy my own desire to not waste. It doesn't give me any advantage finishing the rest of the butts so why not allow it?

Hawg Father of Seoul
11-21-2013, 05:27 AM
You guys make me feel dumb. I use the same butts for pulled and for MM.

I must be the only SOB with hot spots on my cooker.

Rich Parker
11-21-2013, 05:30 AM
You guys make me feel dumb. I use the same butts for pulled and for MM.

I must be the only SOB with hot spots on my cooker.

I was just thinking the same thing! I cook 3 butts as that is all the room I have but use them all for MM and pulled.

MAP
11-21-2013, 06:42 AM
You guys make me feel dumb. I use the same butts for pulled and for MM.

I must be the only SOB with hot spots on my cooker.


No I cook 3 butts and the way I do it I can get MM, chunks and Pulled all from the same one. The last contest I did came in 6th out of 43 and everything in the box came from one butt.

gettinbasted
11-21-2013, 07:13 AM
You guys make me feel dumb. I use the same butts for pulled and for MM.

I must be the only SOB with hot spots on my cooker.

Me too. I cook two butts, pick the best one, and turn it in, but what do I know?

bover
11-21-2013, 07:24 AM
I still don't see the harm in eliminating slices as a valid pork turn-in option. Get rid of that and the rules suddenly become very easy to understand and enforce.

White Dog BBQ
11-21-2013, 09:15 AM
I still don't see the harm in eliminating slices as a valid pork turn-in option. Get rid of that and the rules suddenly become very easy to understand and enforce.

I thought you Midwestern guys loved your sliced pork? Wouldn't that cause a riot or something in KC? :becky:

Rookie'48
11-21-2013, 09:32 AM
The KCBS Board of Directors (bod@kcbs.us) and the Rules Committee (rules@kcbs.us) are willing, even glad, to hear their members' thoughts on rules changes.

Last year at the Open Rules meeting not one person there spoke up in favor of keeping the parting rule. Out of all of the e-mail responses to the Rules Committee regarding the pork rule not one stated that they were in favor of keeping it the way it was. Each and every member who mentioned the pork parting rule said to ditch it.

So - loaded with that information from the members - I proposed, and the BoD passed, a new pork rule. After a little tweaking Jeff re-submitted the proposed rule and it was passed by the Board. Jeff has now asked that the Board give their final approval to the rules changes for the 2014 BBQ season. That motion failed :confused: :confused: :confused:.

From what I was told there were under 50 people there. Even if all were cooks that is a very low percentage to our registered team count. Especially to be making assumptions that is how the majority feels.

I do not want to see KCBS change rules just to reduce the skillsets needed to cook pork or any meat.

From what you said, the new rule should read like this.

Pork shall come from the shoulder.

Okay, that's a good START!

The next (and most important) step is to send those thoughts to KCBS. All of the ranting and raving on a forum doesn't get your thoughts to the BoD, contacting the Board or the Rules Committee will.

And as far as how many members were present at the meeting in January: Those were the only ones that we heard from! Where were the concerns/thoughts from anyone else? If every one of the members who responded felt one way how is the Board supposed to know what the rest of the membership thought if they didn't make their views known???

That's why there was the ad in the BullSheet and the e-blast asking for input on rules for the 2014 season. If no one lets the Board know what they think how are the Board members supposed to figure that out?

The same goes for any and all things that come before the Board. Is there a disciplinary issue coming up? Let us know how you feel. Is there a problem with a certain Contest Rep? Let us know how you feel. Do you have some thoughts on a better way to do something? Let us know how you feel. Is there something in the KCBS Rules that you think could be better? Let us know how you feel.

Don't sit there and wonder how the Board is going to handle something - let us know how you feel. It's YOUR organization. We were elected to serve YOU - the members. Let us know how YOU feel! :thumb:

Slamdunkpro
11-21-2013, 10:53 AM
contacting the Board or the Rules Committee will.
List of Rules committee members?

Dex
11-21-2013, 10:53 AM
No need for me to return our pork to the cooker.... I do a good enough job overcooking it in the cambro lol.

Note to self... leave foil open longer before putting in cambro :tsk:

:idea:

Rich Parker
11-21-2013, 11:06 AM
Okay, that's a good START!

The next (and most important) step is to send those thoughts to KCBS. All of the ranting and raving on a forum doesn't get your thoughts to the BoD, contacting the Board or the Rules Committee will.

And as far as how many members were present at the meeting in January: Those were the only ones that we heard from! Where were the concerns/thoughts from anyone else? If every one of the members who responded felt one way how is the Board supposed to know what the rest of the membership thought if they didn't make their views known???

That's why there was the ad in the BullSheet and the e-blast asking for input on rules for the 2014 season. If no one lets the Board know what they think how are the Board members supposed to figure that out?

The same goes for any and all things that come before the Board. Is there a disciplinary issue coming up? Let us know how you feel. Is there a problem with a certain Contest Rep? Let us know how you feel. Do you have some thoughts on a better way to do something? Let us know how you feel. Is there something in the KCBS Rules that you think could be better? Let us know how you feel.

Don't sit there and wonder how the Board is going to handle something - let us know how you feel. It's YOUR organization. We were elected to serve YOU - the members. Let us know how YOU feel! :thumb:

Good point, and I do appreciate your willingness to serve on this board and act as professional as you do. I don't have time to read the bullsheet but can listen the BoD meeting while working. I can only imagine how frustrating it is at times.

I will send an email to the board bod@kcbs.us and rules committee rules@kcbs.us

Scottie
11-21-2013, 12:44 PM
I go to the banquet every year. The times for the meetings are not very doable.. Having it on a Friday requires teams to be there on a Thursday. At over $100 a night for a room, it does get a bit expensive. Let's face it, they have never been well attended. But neither has the banquet. But to run with something because a vocal minority shows up? Not sure if that is right either.

And this is by no means pointing a finfer.These times, have been going on for a long time. It is nothing new or nothing new for this BOD.

Podge
11-21-2013, 12:46 PM
You guys make me feel dumb. I use the same butts for pulled and for MM.

I must be the only SOB with hot spots on my cooker.

I can do the same thing too, but for me and my cooker, it's such a thin line/small margin for error.

Q-Dat
11-21-2013, 01:33 PM
I still don't see the harm in eliminating slices as a valid pork turn-in option. Get rid of that and the rules suddenly become very easy to understand and enforce.

Man would I ever love to see this happen. I understand what the K in KCBS stands for, and that many for some reason that I have yet to figure out love sliced pork butt. However, KCBS obviously wants to be a national sanctioning body and to most(probably nearly all) of the nation BBQ pork means pulled or chopped.

BTW I actually HAVE had MM that was perfectly cooked and seasoned just right before. I wasn't all that impressed. Give me pulled 10 times out of 10.

YankeeBBQ
11-21-2013, 02:25 PM
I go to the banquet every year. The times for the meetings are not very doable.. Having it on a Friday requires teams to be there on a Thursday. At over $100 a night for a room, it does get a bit expensive. Let's face it, they have never been well attended. But neither has the banquet. But to run with something because a vocal minority shows up? Not sure if that is right either.

And this is by no means pointing a finfer.These times, have been going on for a long time. It is nothing new or nothing new for this BOD.

We did not just go by the people at the banquet. I've heard from many many cooks that they would like to see the parting/no returning to the cooker rule go away. We asked for input via the website and the bullsheet. I personally asked for input from facebook and a couple of forums. A large majority of the people I heard from wanted to do away with the parting rule.....Now I admit since we passed the new rule we have heard from people that don't want the rule changed. But I've still heard from more people that want the new rule.

I would bet money that we did more due diligence on this rule then has ever been done for a KCBS rule in the past. We asked and received input from many many cooks. We will never get everybody to agree so we have to go with the majority.

Podge
11-21-2013, 03:44 PM
We did not just go by the people at the banquet. I've heard from many many cooks that they would like to see the parting/no returning to the cooker rule go away. We asked for input via the website and the bullsheet. I personally asked for input from facebook and a couple of forums. A large majority of the people I heard from wanted to do away with the parting rule.....Now I admit since we passed the new rule we have heard from people that don't want the rule changed. But I've still heard from more people that want the new rule.

I would bet money that we did more due diligence on this rule then has ever been done for a KCBS rule in the past. We asked and received input from many many cooks. We will never get everybody to agree so we have to go with the majority.

I could be totally off-base and mis-interpret listening to the last meeting, but to your point about the majority, it almost seemed to me, that even after all the 'votes' they had during the meeting, it seemed almost worthless, because there were still a few there that voted against it (whatever) and didn't like to lose. It seemed to me that the BOD wanted consensus and not let the majority rule.

Vote, and be done with it..

YankeeBBQ
11-21-2013, 04:40 PM
Vote, and be done with it..

Amen

Slamdunkpro
11-21-2013, 07:40 PM
Now I admit since we passed the new rule we have heard from people that don't want the rule changed.
It's not that we don't want the rule changed - we don't want a flawed rule. The new rule in it's current incantation is flawed. It has a huge amount of wiggle room and, as written turns pork into a grilling contest (c'mon, we all know it does). Don't give me this crap about "trimming all the way down to the money muscle and just cooking that would be a DQ because it violates the "spirit of the rule" when butterflying and leaving the money muscle attached by a thread clearly violates the cooked whole spirit of the current rule but is never called or discussed. Doing this just creates a sea of grey interpretation making enforcement that much more difficult.

The "spirit" of the whole shoulder / Boston butt / roast rule is to show skill in cooking the traditional big meat. The new rule as written turns that on it's head. There has been more discussion about cheating / angle shooting in pork than any other meat since I've been around. Clearly pork is a a problem area and as such should a new rule be enacted it needs to be clearly defined so that there is no question as to what is permitted. It also shouldn't "dumb down" the skill required.

Hawg Father of Seoul
11-21-2013, 07:51 PM
BTW I actually HAVE had MM that was perfectly cooked and seasoned just right before. I wasn't all that impressed. Give me pulled 10 times out of 10.


You may have had proper, but it does not sound like you had the good stuff yet.

Why tell me I can't turn it in because you don't like it? Dang communism. ;)

Rookie'48
11-21-2013, 11:42 PM
Keep up the good work, folks! :-D

Let's have some more thoughts on the parting rule, disciplinary actions, Reps, whatever :idea:. The more input y'all give the more info we have to make the decisions.

Remember that its YOUR organization, not the Board's! We are supposed to listen to the members, not dictate our wishes to them. I'm not saying that every question is going to be answered by a public poll or that a simple majority of vocal members is going to rule the day - what I am saying is that hearing from the members is NEVER a bad thing. When only 100 people out of 17,000 give their opinion and they all say the same thing where does our input come from? If we can hear from 2,000 out of 17,000 (yeah right) then we have a better understanding of where the membership wants to go on that subject.

Let's hear from some more of you KCBS members :-D ! I don't care which side of what issue you are on, I just think that you need to make your views known to the Board. At last count we had four members write in today, let's see how many more want to chime in and let their voices be heard. And to those who wrote in - THANX!!!

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
11-22-2013, 07:38 AM
I have a question, why cant you get slices (mm) and pulled from the same butt? the only advantage to parting and putting back on the cooker to me would be to set the sauce a little, I wonder how many people are gonna change their method and over cook the pork in a boiling vat of sauce...

BMerrill
11-22-2013, 08:08 AM
It's not that we don't want the rule changed - we don't want a flawed rule. The new rule in it's current incantation is flawed. It has a huge amount of wiggle room and, as written turns pork into a grilling contest (c'mon, we all know it does). Don't give me this crap about "trimming all the way down to the money muscle and just cooking that would be a DQ because it violates the "spirit of the rule" when butterflying and leaving the money muscle attached by a thread clearly violates the cooked whole spirit of the current rule but is never called or discussed. Doing this just creates a sea of grey interpretation making enforcement that much more difficult.

The "spirit" of the whole shoulder / Boston butt / roast rule is to show skill in cooking the traditional big meat. The new rule as written turns that on it's head. There has been more discussion about cheating / angle shooting in pork than any other meat since I've been around. Clearly pork is a a problem area and as such should a new rule be enacted it needs to be clearly defined so that there is no question as to what is permitted. It also shouldn't "dumb down" the skill required.

You are absolutely correct. Research the pork rule and it various changes. Each change looks like an attempt to refocus the cooks back to the spirit of the rule as cooks became more creative in trimming.

Pork shall be the whole shoulder or one of the two halves (Picnic or Butt), bone-in or deboned, having a minimum weight of 5 pounds after trimming. Deboned pork has to be tied in a manor to resemble the bone in product. Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited.

The above rule returns to the original intent.
Having a minimum weight after trimming would eliminate trimming a 5 pound butt to just the money muscle.
Deboned pork would have to be tied.
Prohibiting any “separation of the muscles before cooking is complete” would eliminate the creative trimming being done were the muscle groups are separated from each other but still attached by a sliver of the fat cap with the MM tied together and tethered to the blade portion. This also prohibits the cook in returning any portion of the pork to the cooker after separation.

Separation is a better word to use than “parting”. Separate means: not touching, not together; not in the same place.

Alexa RnQ
11-22-2013, 08:25 AM
I wonder how many people are gonna change their method and over cook the pork in a boiling vat of sauce...

http://www.divaherself.com/porkrule.jpg

Muzzlebrake
11-22-2013, 08:26 AM
Holy Groundhog Day Batman!

I had to double check the time stamps, I thought I woke up in last January.

YankeeBBQ
11-22-2013, 09:42 AM
You are absolutely correct. Research the pork rule and it various changes. Each change looks like an attempt to refocus the cooks back to the spirit of the rule as cooks became more creative in trimming.

Pork shall be the whole shoulder or one of the two halves (Picnic or Butt), bone-in or deboned, having a minimum weight of 5 pounds after trimming. Deboned pork has to be tied in a manor to resemble the bone in product. Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited.

The above rule returns to the original intent.
Having a minimum weight after trimming would eliminate trimming a 5 pound butt to just the money muscle.
Deboned pork would have to be tied.
Prohibiting any “separation of the muscles before cooking is complete” would eliminate the creative trimming being done were the muscle groups are separated from each other but still attached by a sliver of the fat cap with the MM tied together and tethered to the blade portion. This also prohibits the cook in returning any portion of the pork to the cooker after separation.

Separation is a better word to use than “parting”. Separate means: not touching, not together; not in the same place.

Even this rule could be picked apart. " Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited." Ok so in my opinion as a cook the cooking of my butt is complete. I separate the muscles and pull into chunks or shred it however I want. So now I want to set my sauce or just bring my pork up to temp before turning in. What in this rule prohibits that ? And why would you want to prohibit that ? I can do it with every other category. Am I a bad cook or just one that wants to turn in the best product I possibly can to the judges ? I don't want to grill it, microwave it or boil it in sauce, I just want to turn in nice hot pork to the judges. What's so wrong about that ?

Any bbq restaurant you go to holds their pulled pork in some type of warmer, they don't just pull it and leave it sitting on the counter. If you went to a restaurant and got cold pork I'm sure you wouldn't be very pleased. I've heard people say judges shouldn't mark down if it's cold. Why not ? It shouldn't be cold.

Slamdunkpro
11-22-2013, 10:40 AM
Even this rule could be picked apart. " Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited." Ok so in my opinion as a cook the cooking of my butt is complete. I separate the muscles and pull into chunks or shred it however I want. So now I want to set my sauce or just bring my pork up to temp before turning in. What in this rule prohibits that ? And why would you want to prohibit that ? I can do it with every other category. Am I a bad cook or just one that wants to turn in the best product I possibly can to the judges ? I don't want to grill it, microwave it or boil it in sauce, I just want to turn in nice hot pork to the judges. What's so wrong about that ?
Fine. Here's your no wiggle room pork rule:
Legal pork shall consist of IMPS shoulder #403 and it's derivatives ( 403B, 403C, 404, 406, 406B, 406C, and 407) where the animal has been broken no further rostral than Cervical vertebra C3 and no further caudal than thoracic vertebra T1 (the first rostral rib). Pork must have a minimum raw post trim weight of 5 pounds. Pork must be cooked whole and intact. Butterflying, fileting,or separating (defined at cutting out a specific muscle and leaving a minimal attachment to other muscle groups) muscles prior to or during the cook is prohibited (Caution; while boneless butts / roasts are allowed, they are subject to the same parting and trimming standards as bone in products.) . Once the pork is removed from the cooker and any portion of the pork is cut, sliced, pulled or removed no part of the pork may be returned to the cooker until after the pork turn in window closes.

It preserves the original spirit of pork bbq, is clear and enforceable.


Any bbq restaurant you go to holds their pulled pork in some type of warmer, they don't just pull it and leave it sitting on the counter. If you went to a restaurant and got cold pork I'm sure you wouldn't be very pleased. I've heard people say judges shouldn't mark down if it's cold. Why not ? It shouldn't be cold.
I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.

YankeeBBQ
11-22-2013, 10:54 AM
[QUOTE=Slamdunkpro;2703259

I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.[/QUOTE]

Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??

Slamdunkpro
11-22-2013, 11:03 AM
Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??

I agree - we try to have everything in the box as hot as possible and we use an insulated carrier. When we box our pork it's so hot we have to use insulated gloves to handle it - no reheating or additional cooker time required. It's a cooking skill issue, why are you trying to reduce the skill required?

Jorge
11-22-2013, 11:26 AM
I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.

You can call him a lot of things, but disingenuous isn't one of them.

You may not agree with him. But he's always been straightforward and honest with me, and anybody else I know that is familiar with him.

Slamdunkpro
11-22-2013, 11:53 AM
You can call him a lot of things, but disingenuous isn't one of them.

You may not agree with him. But he's always been straightforward and honest with me, and anybody else I know that is familiar with him.
I don't find Steve disingenuous but I find that particular oft repeated argument so. Specious might be a better word.

Rich Parker
11-22-2013, 12:22 PM
Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??

If a cook has cold pork at turn in they should go home and practice and whatever score they get that day is well deserved. Before you bring it up, I have been there and done that!

Why should the other teams be put at a disadvantage because they were able to put hot pork in their turn in box?

Jorge
11-22-2013, 12:35 PM
I don't find Steve disingenuous but I find that particular oft repeated argument so. Specious might be a better word.

I get it. When I was elected I actually wanted to open the category up to "pork" and turn cooks loose. Then I looked at the ramifications more closely and listened to a couple of people that suggested we needed pork to be a long cook since chicken and ribs were either on short timelines or timelines that were shrinking.

MABA may be different, but when you get elected to the KCBS BoD you need to accept the fact that you are wrong. Nobody calls or emails when you did something right. Nobody calls or emails when you ask for input. If something goes south people will come out of the woodwork when you've made a decisions on something that you've already asked for input on.

I give Steve and Dave all the credit in the world for being willing to step out and listen and take the heat. Heat that isn't necessarily from you.

I added Thanks to Podge's post about just voting the damn thing. I don't agree with the new rule, but it might just get cooks pissed off enough to give a chit. Steve is a cook, and a great cook. He may not agree with the input he's given but I've got no doubt he'd consider it and take the input to the committee and BoD. Being elected to the BoD doesn't invest anyone with ESP to know what the cooks are thinking. Maybe this will be a catalyst to encourage communication from the bottom up. If not, cooks can continue to bitch and whine, which will happen no matter what the BoD does.

Scottie
11-22-2013, 01:21 PM
He just talks funny...

Podge
11-22-2013, 01:50 PM
Just like the US elected government officials, if you don't like what they're doing, then vote on someone you agree with at the next election.

Tell ya what would make for an interesting polling question for potential canidates for next election, is to he how they specifically feel about the potential pork rules and what they believe in and would vote for. Indirectly, the voting membership would then have a vote for the person on what they believe in for the pork rule. (not saying the pork rule is the one and only hot topic of discussion, but damn, I can't remember the last time something like this has dragged on and on and on. Again, this ain't a consensus, it's a vote by our elected board members!)

Slamdunkpro
11-22-2013, 04:56 PM
I get it. When I was elected I actually wanted to open the category up to "pork" and turn cooks loose. Then I looked at the ramifications more closely and listened to a couple of people that suggested we needed pork to be a long cook since chicken and ribs were either on short timelines or timelines that were shrinking.

MABA may be different, but when you get elected to the KCBS BoD you need to accept the fact that you are wrong. Nobody calls or emails when you did something right. Nobody calls or emails when you ask for input. If something goes south people will come out of the woodwork when you've made a decisions on something that you've already asked for input on.

I give Steve and Dave all the credit in the world for being willing to step out and listen and take the heat. Heat that isn't necessarily from you.

I added Thanks to Podge's post about just voting the damn thing. I don't agree with the new rule, but it might just get cooks pissed off enough to give a chit. Steve is a cook, and a great cook. He may not agree with the input he's given but I've got no doubt he'd consider it and take the input to the committee and BoD. Being elected to the BoD doesn't invest anyone with ESP to know what the cooks are thinking. Maybe this will be a catalyst to encourage communication from the bottom up. If not, cooks can continue to bitch and whine, which will happen no matter what the BoD does.

Let's hold on a sec, this isn't personal on my end nor is it whining or sour grapes. As for input to the BOD, I've tried to do that in a constructive way. I had a conversation with Candy about this at Sam's and asked her who was replacing Jeff as head of Competition since he resigned - She said no one is. Now we don't know who is on the competition committee or who if anyone is chairing it and we're coming down to the wire on 2014. I'm not trying to speak for Mike Peters here but it appears that he recognized that the pork rule that is scheduled to take effect next year is flawed and I applaud him for stepping up and taking the heat for that.

It seems to me that this whole thing is boiling down to one vocal group who wants to be able to cut up their pork butt; another group that doesn't, a bunch who don't really care and the last group (which I'm in) doesn't really care except that we want the rule to be clear with little wiggle room and we don't want the category dumbed down.

If the Board changes the pork rule, cut / no cut / whatever, it's going to impact a lot of people and with the spotlight on BBQ the way it is right now the last thing KCBS needs is a new rule with acres of grey open to interpretation and shenanigans.

I also want to apologize to Steve Farrin if I in any way implied that he was dishonest or not dealing above board. I wasn't.

sdbbq1234
11-22-2013, 09:01 PM
You guys make me feel dumb. I use the same butts for pulled and for MM.

I must be the only SOB with hot spots on my cooker.

+1.

wallace

BMerrill
11-24-2013, 06:23 PM
If your product isn't hot enough, rules 17. g & h address this, "holding warm","cooling" and "reheating". This applies to all meats including pork.

SITM BBQ
11-25-2013, 01:04 PM
I agree that we need a rule that is clearly defined eliminating the gray area for creative trimming. It's is simple, you can cut the mm off before cook is complete or you can't and should leave the pork whole with minimal trim. I prefer that we leave pork category whole as it is intended to show skill with large cuts of meat, but either way let's define this rule to make sure it is clear.

CBQ
11-25-2013, 01:54 PM
You guys make me feel dumb. I use the same butts for pulled and for MM.

I must be the only SOB with hot spots on my cooker.

We cook 'em whole.

When Dave introduced the new rule, I was in favor of it because the no parting rule wasn't well worded, and not being able to reheat or glaze pork (something allowed with other meats) didn't make sense.

The more I see of the debate though, the more I think we should just leave it as is. Pork has gone from our worst to our strongest category, and I really don't want to spend the next 3 months reinventing it.

jaestar
11-25-2013, 04:54 PM
When will the rule go into effect and what rule is it going to be? Will it go into effect for contests in December that count towards 2014 TOY points?

musicmanryann
11-26-2013, 08:24 AM
When will the rule go into effect and what rule is it going to be? Will it go into effect for contests in December that count towards 2014 TOY points?

The pork rule is in limbo at the moment. The board is getting together in the near future (week or so?) to bring it up for discussion. If/when a change to the current rule goes in to effect, I am almost certain it would be for the 2014 calendar year.

Podge
11-26-2013, 09:05 AM
I think I'll just cook pork like I always have. I'm sure whatever rule is finalized, it'll have enough grey areas in it (per people's perception and interpretation) that it wouldn't be worth messing with any other way.

musicmanryann
11-26-2013, 09:19 AM
When will the rule go into effect and what rule is it going to be? Will it go into effect for contests in December that count towards 2014 TOY points?

The quick notes (http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=701) give you a rough idea of the discussion that went on and why it is in limbo. Begin reading where it says "Mike Peters" right after the KCBScore Committee Report about 1/3rd the way down. Although I would say I found the recording to be quite interesting.:becky:

Rich Parker
11-26-2013, 12:15 PM
The quick notes (http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=701) give you a rough idea of the discussion that went on and why it is in limbo. Begin reading where it says "Mike Peters" right after the KCBScore Committee Report about 1/3rd the way down. Although I would say I found the recording to be quite interesting.:becky:

They are going to be too busy trying to figure out to how break the ToY tie than to mess around with this pork rule. :clap2:

cpw
11-26-2013, 01:12 PM
They are going to be too busy trying to figure out to how break the ToY tie than to mess around with this pork rule. :clap2:

I'm thinking Thunderdome. Two men enter, one man leaves!

SITM BBQ
11-26-2013, 01:21 PM
Good idea, I think a heads up match would be cool. Though I bet they are going to give it to the team with the most gc's for the year.

Podge
11-26-2013, 02:53 PM
I'm sure the BOD will have a new rule and decision made by 2017 in regards to the TOY tie breaker that will end up Pi$$ing off better than 50% of the membership.

BMerrill
11-26-2013, 03:29 PM
Read the notes and then listened to the recording.
My take on the discussion on the recording.
Retain 5 pounds.
Cook whole until done.
Can be returned back to the cooker to reheat only.

I disgree with the comment, "membership wants to eliminate the parting rule".
From the comments here it is mixed about 50/50.

As for reheating rule 17) h. addresses this.

What are your thoughts?

musicmanryann
11-26-2013, 04:05 PM
Seems like that's where they are at, however they have not voted on it, and if they don't at the next meeting, the old rule would remain in effect for the 2014 season.

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 04:22 PM
I'm sure the BOD will have a new rule and decision made by 2017 in regards to the TOY tie breaker that will end up Pi$$ing off better than 50% of the membership.

Actually there's been a tie breaker in place since 2011
http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/march2011bullsheet.pdf

Rules Committee: Candy Weaver
The following changes to the rules for Team of the Year for the 2011
calendar year, are proposed. These will go into effect immediately.
Candy Weaver made a motion in order to prevent a tie in the top 20
positions, the following procedures be applied. Look at the 11th. place
scores of the contests of each tied team. The team with the most 1st
place scores is the winner. If this does not break the tie, look to the
eleventh contest cooked by the tied teams. This contest score will be
factored in with the other ten contest scores. Should this not break the
tie, continue with contest 12. Should a team not have cooked more than
10 contests, a zero will be input for the tiebreaking contest. Of Jan 1,
2011. The motion was seconded by Merl Whitebook.
Vote:10 yes, 0 no, 0 abstentions

Bubba
11-26-2013, 05:12 PM
My name is Eric (Bubba) Burkhart and I am running for the Board of Directors this year. Although what the Board decides to do this year I unfortunately don't have a say in their decision. Everyone asks me on my opinion on this so here you go. Why are we even having a discussion on this? What I would like is to have a rule that simply says what I have to cook not how i can cook it. If we had a rule that said it must be a Boston Butt, Picnic or Whole Shoulder weighing a minimum of 5 lbs bone in or out. At a competition I don't have time to worry what someone else is doing. I believe that KCBS should only tell you what to cook not how to cook.

Alexa RnQ
11-26-2013, 05:56 PM
I believe that KCBS should only tell you what to cook not how to cook.
This is something that the sous-vide chicken people will be delighted to hear.

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 05:59 PM
This is something that the sous-vide chicken people will be delighted to hear.

You should be in politics your great at twisting peoples words.

fnbish
11-26-2013, 07:21 PM
This is something that the sous-vide chicken people will be delighted to hear.

I clearly don't think he means you can use any type of cooking heat source like you would need electric for a stable sous vide heat. Just use the current charcoal, wood, pellets, etc it then you can manipulate the meat to your choosing after inspection.

Rich Parker
11-26-2013, 07:33 PM
Actually there's been a tiescoreser in place since 2011
http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/march2011bullsheet.pdf

Rules Committee: Candy Weaver
The following changes to the rules for Team of the Year for the 2011
calendar year, are proposed. These will go into effect immediately.
Candy Weaver made a motion in order to prevent a tie in the top 20
positions, the following procedures be applied. Look at the 11th. place
scores of the contests of each tied team. The team with the most 1st
place scores is the winner. If this does not break the tie, look to the
eleventh contest cooked by the tied teams. This contest score will be
factored in with the other ten contest scores. Should this not break the
tie, continue with contest 12. Should a team not have cooked more than
10 contests, a zero will be input for the tiebreaking contest. Of Jan 1,
2011. The motion was seconded by Merl Whitebook.
Vote:10 yes, 0 no, 0 abstentions

This is confusing to understand. Look at 11th place scores of the contests of each tied teams then next sentence the team with the most 1st place scores is the winner. Can you explain what this means or if Candy could explain it would be better since it was her motion.

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 07:39 PM
This is confusing to understand. Look at 11th place scores of the contests of each tied teams then next sentence the team with the most 1st place scores is the winner. Can you explain what this means or if Candy could explain it would be better since it was her motion.

Your right and that was a topic of discussion during a meeting of the board tonight. It has been corrected to read as the original motion was made.

In order to prevent a tie in the top 20 positions, the following procedures be applied. Look at the place scores of the contests of each tied team. The team with the most 1st place scores is the winner. If this does not break the tie, look to the eleventh contest cooked by the tied teams. This contest score will be factored in with the other ten contest scores. Should this not break the tie, continue with contest 12. Should a team not have cooked more than 10 contests, a zero will be input for the tie breaking contest.

Here is a link to the original agenda for that meeting http://kcbs.us/news.php?id=305

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 07:44 PM
Here is the final pork rule for 2014 passed by the board this evening

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

fnbish
11-26-2013, 07:58 PM
Here is the final pork rule for 2014 passed by the board this evening

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

What defines "cooked"? Is it a certain temp?

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 08:02 PM
What defines "cooked"? Is it a certain temp?
According to the FDA the safe minimum cooking temp for pork is 145 degrees F with a 3 minute rest time

http://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/charts/mintemp.html

Smoke'n Ice
11-26-2013, 08:22 PM
Here is the final pork rule for 2014 passed by the board this evening

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

This rule, as written, legalizes the cooking of only the money muscle or any other separate muscle of the pork shoulder. Let the grilling begin.

Fat Freddy
11-26-2013, 08:27 PM
Here is the final pork rule for 2014 passed by the board this evening

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

Thank you for the update on the rule Steve, wont change how I cook my pork but at least we have a rule in place and have a good idea what we can and can not do.

CBQ
11-26-2013, 08:59 PM
This rule, as written, legalizes the cooking of only the money muscle or any other separate muscle of the pork shoulder. Let the grilling begin.

How so? If you have to cook the butt to 145 whole you could maybe finish it on the grill, but you still have to cook it first.

If you really want to get technical about it, the old rule said you can't return the butt to the smoker once you part it. My offset has a shelf that gets to 450. I could have parted the pork IN the smoker and grilled it - technically following the rule. I think KCBS is trying to strike a balance between communicating the intent of the rule vs. writing a 2 page contract for pork cooking. It does that, I think.

Untraceable
11-26-2013, 09:05 PM
The sky is falling! Who cares.

Smoke'n Ice
11-26-2013, 09:23 PM
I sent the following as an email to bod:
Dear KCBS BOD members:

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

The above referenced rule now legalizes the cooking of the money muscle or any other separated muscle of the pork shoulder. This statement is not based on semantics or liberal interpretation of the written rule, it is based on the rule as written. Nothing will prevent me, a cook, from presenting 4 each pork butts, bone in or bone out, weighing 4 pounds or more for inspection. Once the inspection is complete, I can, by rule, trim one or more of the butts so that only the money muscle remains and cook just that muscle. The trimmings can be placed in a cooler for another use in my restaurant or home or just thrown away.

I am free, by the rule as written, to cook one or more of the whole butts for pulled and chunk and grill one or more of the money muscles, as trimmed, for inclusion as sliced pork.

If I were so inclined, I could bring a couple of pork tenderloins in another cooler, and after inspection cook them and pass them as mm. Now this is cheating but it will be difficult to prove as the rule now allows me to cook just one of the muscles. I believe that this is what was happening in the past and was the reason for the old rule.

Is this really what you wanted? The old rule left room for interpretation but this type of interpretation was against the intent of the rule. The new rule has the intent of allowing the cooking of any portion of the butt that the cook desires without misinterpretation or going against the intent of the rule.

Thank you for your efforts but it is becoming more of a grilling and sauce contest and less about the art of BBQ with rule changes like this.

Mack Yarbrough
Smoke’n Ice

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 09:47 PM
I sent the following as an email to bod:
Dear KCBS BOD members:



The above referenced rule now legalizes the cooking of the money muscle or any other separated muscle of the pork shoulder. This statement is not based on semantics or liberal interpretation of the written rule, it is based on the rule as written.
Mack Yarbrough
Smoke’n Ice

I appreciate your input but I wholeheartedly disagree. Your statement is based on a liberal interpretation of the written rule. Trimming a pork butt down to just the money muscle is not trimming. It is parting or separating the muscles. If someone does this they are CHEATING. The rule states the butt must be cooked whole.

In the end people are going to do what people are going to do. The rule is in place for 2014. Maybe it will be a disaster or maybe it will be the best thing since sliced bread. Time will tell.

White Dog BBQ
11-26-2013, 09:56 PM
Here is the final pork rule for 2014 passed by the board this evening

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

Steve,

Where did the 4 lbs come from? I hadn't seen that weight requirement thrown about before.

Erik

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 10:00 PM
Steve,

Where did the 4 lbs come from? I hadn't seen that weight requirement thrown about before.

Erik

I'll let Jeff field this one. That recommendation came from his committee.

Just so you know I voted against this rule because I didn't see the point of having any weight requirement. We passed a rule earlier in the year without it but this was a compromise amongst board members.

Smoke'n Ice
11-26-2013, 10:06 PM
I appreciate your input but I wholeheartedly disagree. Your statement is based on a liberal interpretation of the written rule. Trimming a pork butt down to just the money muscle is not trimming. It is parting or separating the muscles. If someone does this they are CHEATING. The rule states the butt must be cooked whole.

In the end people are going to do what people are going to do. The rule is in place for 2014. Maybe it will be a disaster or maybe it will be the best thing since sliced bread. Time will tell.

I'm sorry Steve but it does not limit the type or amount of trimming allowed, it only states that once trimmed, the "trimmed" pork butt must be cooked whole and cannot be separated. That is not a liberal interpretation, it is cold hard fact! Read the rule as written, not as it was intended or debated or what your personal interpretation was but, what it really says or does not say.

SITM BBQ
11-26-2013, 10:06 PM
Steve,
I agree, to trim down to just a mm would be cheating. As I read the rule I interpret it that once your pork is finished cooking you can separate and put it back on to set glaze etc. I know this will be interpreted differently by those who want to separate mm at an earlier time and I can understand their point as the rule is not exactly clear. (What determines cooked?) at least maybe we will lower the demand for pork butt as several teams will not need more than a couple butts now for each comp.

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 10:13 PM
I'm sorry Steve but it does not limit the type or amount of trimming allowed, it only states that once trimmed, the "trimmed" pork butt must be cooked whole and cannot be separated. That is not a liberal interpretation, it is cold hard fact! Read the rule as written, not as it was intended or debated or what your personal interpretation was but, what it really says or does not say.

Lopping the money muscle off a pork butt is not trimming. Stating that it's a cold hard fact and putting an exclamation point at the end doesn't change reality. If you go to get your hair trimmed and they cut it all off or give you a Mohawk I'm pretty sure you'd have a strong case in court against the barber.

Smoke'n Ice
11-26-2013, 10:24 PM
Lopping the money muscle off a pork butt is not trimming. Stating that it's a cold hard fact and putting an exclamation point at the end doesn't change reality. If you go to get your hair trimmed and they cut it all off or give you a Mohawk I'm pretty sure you'd have a strong case in court against the barber.

That would depend on what trim means to me and the barber. Just saying that it is so open to interpretation that it will happen and I don't really see anything that can be done about it as it is allowed by rule.

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 10:27 PM
That would depend on what trim means to me and the barber. Just saying that it is so open to interpretation that it will happen and I don't really see anything that can be done about it as it is allowed by rule.

Since nobody is policing any of this stuff anyway it's probably happening now. I guess that's an argument for another day.

Brew-B-Q
11-26-2013, 10:28 PM
I find this whole discussion laughable. Tell cooks what they can turn in, for any meat, or award points for creativity. I'd like to see KCBS encouraging cooks to be more creative versus adhering to the standards (perceived or real) of what judges expect. It's becoming way too homogenous in my opinion.

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 10:33 PM
I find this whole discussion laughable. Tell cooks what they can turn in, for any meat, or award points for creativity. I'd like to see KCBS encouraging cooks to be more creative versus adhering to the standards (perceived or real) of what judges expect. It's becoming way too homogenous in my opinion.

Well it is a bbq competition not the Bocuse d'Or. I've seen some of those burger competitions on tv. If I were a judge I'd probably spit half of them across the room.

Brew-B-Q
11-26-2013, 10:38 PM
Well it is a bbq competition not the Bocuse d'Or. I've seen some of those burger competitions on tv. If I were a judge I'd probably spit half of them across the room.

I don't think I suggested that it should be fancy pants. And I don't know what burger competitions have to do with it. Just my thoughts that BBQ could be more than the same old same old.

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 10:44 PM
I don't think I suggested that it should be fancy pants. And I don't know what burger competitions have to do with it. Just my thoughts that BBQ could be more than the same old same old.

Well I guess by point was a burger should be a burger and bbq should be bbq. Nobody is stopping you from turning is Wasabi Glazed ribs, they might taste great but they're certainly not bbq and in reality they shouldn't score well in a bbq competition. Of course that's just my opinion.

Brew-B-Q
11-26-2013, 10:51 PM
Well I guess by point was a burger should be a burger and bbq should be bbq. Nobody is stopping you from turning is Wasabi Glazed ribs, they might taste great but they're certainly not bbq and in reality they shouldn't score well in a bbq competition. Of course that's just my opinion.

But chicken braised in butter is "BBQ." I don't mean to hijack and I respect you for commenting on this forum. I would just like to see some more creativity.

YankeeBBQ
11-26-2013, 10:58 PM
But chicken braised in butter is "BBQ." I don't mean to hijack and I respect you for commenting on this forum. I would just like to see some more creativity.


Well you got me there. I don't really care for butter braised chicken (not to say I don't turn it in). The judges really seem to like it though ???

I'm sure back in the day nobody heard of braising chicken in butter. Somebody's 'creativity' led to today's craze.

BBQchef33
11-26-2013, 11:15 PM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.


This rule, as written, legalizes the cooking of only the money muscle or any other separate muscle of the pork shoulder. Let the grilling begin.

Where can you get a 4lb money muscle? Send me the address. :)

Slamdunkpro
11-26-2013, 11:25 PM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.




Where can you get a 4lb money muscle? Send me the address. :)
Snakeriverfarms.com - ask for a long cut or Euro cut Boston Roast.

Rub
11-27-2013, 12:03 AM
From page 2 of this thread (with a few tweaks to fit the new rule):

I propose that to keep it simple and easy to understand they add an official "FAQ" to the rules. Example:

Rules FAQs

Q: The way I interpret the pork rule, I can cut the money muscle off when it's cooked then return the rest of the butt to the smoker. Is this right?
A: Yes. Pork is considered "cooked" once it reaches 155+ degrees.

Q: Can I trim the butt down to just the money muscle or groups of muscles before I cook it?
A: No, the butt must remain intact except for minor trimming (1 pound or less removed).

Q: Is a Euro cut Boston Roast from SRF legal for competition.
A: No, this isn't Europe, this is America damnit! :thumb:


Easy peasy.

Hawg Father of Seoul
11-27-2013, 12:34 AM
The BOD has spoken. The could have made it 7 lbs, but they did not. The SNF cut is legal.

Time to practice.

BogsBBQ
11-27-2013, 06:23 AM
As I see it, there are two practical applications with the new rule:

1) Separating the MM from the rest of the pork when it reaches a certain temperature and leaving the rest of the pork on the cooker.

2) Reheating parts of the pork (MM or otherwise) prior to the turn in.

If people want to cheat or twist the rules however they see fit, I'm sure they will and I'm sure they have already been doing so.

Icekub
11-27-2013, 06:30 AM
So, with this new rule change for 2014, are the folks who are trimming MM but leaving "in tact" by leaving a sliver of fat cap attached cheating or legal?

Smoke'n Ice
11-27-2013, 06:49 AM
Lopping the money muscle off a pork butt is not trimming. Stating that it's a cold hard fact and putting an exclamation point at the end doesn't change reality. If you go to get your hair trimmed and they cut it all off or give you a Mohawk I'm pretty sure you'd have a strong case in court against the barber.

I have been going to a barber for over 65 years and every time I have asked for a trim (except in the military) there has been a discussion about what the barber understood me to mean and what I actually meant by the term trim. The accepted definition is:

verb
verb: trim; 3rd person present: trims; past tense: trimmed; past participle: trimmed; gerund or present participle: trimming


make (something) neat or of the required size or form by cutting away irregular or unwanted parts.

it comes down to what the cook considers unwanted parts.

I would ask the question that begs an answer, why change the rule that was not enforced to another rule that lessens the likely hood that it needs to be enforced?

drop2d
11-27-2013, 06:57 AM
I have been going to a barber for over 65 years and every time I have asked for a trim (except in the military) there has been a discussion about what the barber understood me to mean and what I actually meant by the term trim. The accepted definition is:

verb
verb: trim; 3rd person present: trims; past tense: trimmed; past participle: trimmed; gerund or present participle: trimming


make (something) neat or of the required size or form by cutting away irregular or unwanted parts.

it comes down to what the cook considers unwanted parts.

I would ask the question that begs an answer, why change the rule that was not enforced to another rule that lessens the likely hood that it needs to be enforced?

This... Teams were already doing it anyway. I guess KCBS just decided to make it legal.

YankeeBBQ
11-27-2013, 09:27 AM
From page 2 of this thread (with a few tweaks to fit the new rule):

Forwarded to the Board, we'll see where it goes.

Steve

columbia1
11-27-2013, 09:32 AM
Thank-you Steve!!

musicmanryann
11-27-2013, 10:05 AM
The BOD has spoken. The could have made it 7 lbs, but they did not. The SNF cut is legal.

Time to practice.

Are you talking about pork collar? If so, there has already been a rep advisory that explicitly states that defines what "Pork" is and pork collar is not a part of that definition. Therefore, illegal meat even with the new rule.

If however you are talking about some other type of pork that would fit the KCBS definition, then I would be curious to know more. :twisted:

YankeeBBQ
11-27-2013, 10:07 AM
The BOD has spoken. The could have made it 7 lbs, but they did not. The SNF cut is legal.

Time to practice.

Don't they teach reading and COMPREHENSION these days ?

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

Says Boston Butt, Boston Roast , Picnic and/or whole shoulder. Where does it say Pork Collar or SNF Euro Cut pork roast ? Cheat if you want, you probably won't get caught but if you do remember somebody got banned for 3 years just for wearing a penis apron.

cpw
11-27-2013, 10:14 AM
From page 2 of this thread (with a few tweaks to fit the new rule):

Forwarded to the Board, we'll see where it goes.

Steve

Makes perfect sense to me, I'll forward Rub's suggestion to the board.

YankeeBBQ
11-27-2013, 10:19 AM
it comes down to what the cook considers unwanted parts.




Actually it doesn't. The fact that you used the word 'parts' in this sentence says it all. Your parting. In the rule it says the pork must be cooked whole. Once you start removing any muscles from the butt it is no longer whole. It is just part of a pork butt.

Trimming is removing unwanted fat and maybe a little meat to get a uniform shape. While your trimming ask yourself...self if I remove this PART of the butt is it still a whole pork butt. Then when it dawns on you that no it will no longer be a whole pork butt leave it on.

dmprantz
11-27-2013, 10:54 AM
Cheat if you want, you probably won't get caught but if you do remember somebody got banned for 3 years just for wearing a penis apron.

I was debating weather or not to "weigh" in here, but after this, I see no reason not to:)

As some one who can read, the part that I find interesting is that the rule specifically says that the cut of meat must weigh 4 lb at the time of inspection, not when being placed in the cooker, and it mentions trimming between inspection/weighing and cooking.

The way it's worded, I think it practically encourages people to start out with a "whole" cut and trim away whatever they don't want, whether it's excess or entire muscle groups. Lots of ways to resolve this including allowing it, changing the pre-cook weight, the max-trim weight, or just saying "cheaters will cheat."

I suppose the other question is, at what point does trimming the cut turn it into an illegal cut? I think I heard that there are seven muscle groups in a Pork Butt? Must all seven remain for the cut to be legal and cookable? You aready allow bonless cuts, which convert a 405 to a 405A, and a 406 to a 406A, but you don't allow a long cut shoulder which would be a 403A rather than a 403. There I go geeking out and losing people again. Even still, people can be load 3 lb pieces of meat into their cookers on January 1 the way I read that.

Okay, I'll go back to my corner now.

dmp

YankeeBBQ
11-27-2013, 11:25 AM
I was debating weather or not to "weigh" in here, but after this, I see no reason not to:)

As some one who can read, the part that I find interesting is that the rule specifically says that the cut of meat must weigh 4 lb at the time of inspection, not when being placed in the cooker, and it mentions trimming between inspection/weighing and cooking.

The way it's worded, I think it practically encourages people to start out with a "whole" cut and trim away whatever they don't want, whether it's excess or entire muscle groups. Lots of ways to resolve this including allowing it, changing the pre-cook weight, the max-trim weight, or just saying "cheaters will cheat."

I suppose the other question is, at what point does trimming the cut turn it into an illegal cut? I think I heard that there are seven muscle groups in a Pork Butt? Must all seven remain for the cut to be legal and cookable? You aready allow bonless cuts, which convert a 405 to a 405A, and a 406 to a 406A, but you don't allow a long cut shoulder which would be a 403A rather than a 403. There I go geeking out and losing people again. Even still, people can be load 3 lb pieces of meat into their cookers on January 1 the way I read that.

Okay, I'll go back to my corner now.

dmp

Perfect ! Your posting will be enough to distract people from the pork rule LOL.

Slamdunkpro
11-27-2013, 11:44 AM
Actually it doesn't. The fact that you used the word 'parts' in this sentence says it all. Your parting. In the rule it says the pork must be cooked whole. Once you start removing any muscles from the butt it is no longer whole. It is just part of a pork butt.

Trimming is removing unwanted fat and maybe a little meat to get a uniform shape. While your trimming ask yourself...self if I remove this PART of the butt is it still a whole pork butt. Then when it dawns on you that no it will no longer be a whole pork butt leave it on.
Perhaps, perhaps not - When you trim a Beef Tenderloin roast you cut the chain and the head wrap off - These are two fairly large chunks of meat - it's still a tenderloin roast when you're done and it might go from 8 lbs in the cryo to 5lbs finished.

Another example - I go to the butcher to get butts and they don't have any, All they have are whole shoulders. I don't have time to trim it before going to the contest. I arrive and get the whole shoulder inspected (12 lbs). I then skin and trim it down to a butt-ish looking chunk - Trimming or butchering/breaking down? By your definition of trimming after inspection this would be illegal.

YankeeBBQ
11-27-2013, 11:52 AM
Perhaps, perhaps not - When you trim a Beef Tenderloin roast you cut the chain and the head wrap off - These are two fairly large chunks of meat - it's still a tenderloin roast when you're done and it might go from 8 lbs in the cryo to 5lbs finished.

Another example - I go to the butcher to get butts and they don't have any, All they have are whole shoulders. I don't have time to trim it before going to the contest. I arrive and get the whole shoulder inspected (12 lbs). I then skin and trim it down to a butt-ish looking chunk - Trimming or butchering/breaking down? By your definition of trimming this would be illegal.

I think your making my point for me. You may end up with a tenderloin roast but it's no longer a whole tenderloin. If we had a tenderloin category and the rules said it must be cooked whole then you would have to leave the chain meat, the tail and that large muscle on there.

I've never trimmed a whole shoulder . Please educate me. Are all the muscles for a commercially trimmed butt included in your butt-ish looking chunk. If so legal. If not then you've created an illegal cut of pork.

Slamdunkpro
11-27-2013, 12:10 PM
I think your making my point for me. You may end up with a tenderloin roast but it's no longer a whole tenderloin. If we had a tenderloin category and the rules said it must be cooked whole then you would have to leave the chain meat, the tail and that large muscle on there.
Grey area, it's no longer a PSMO, but it's still a whole tenderloin. The chain and the head wrap aren't part of the tenderloin muscle.

I've never trimmed a whole shoulder . Please educate me. Are all the muscles for a commercially trimmed butt included in your butt-ish looking chunk. If so legal. If not then you've created an illegal cut of pork.

I'll have to get the wife's porcine anatomy book out to be sure but I believe they remove the digastric muscle when they bone them out. There are 8 muscles in a pork butt btw. 1.Omohyoid muscle
2.Sternothyroid muscle
3.Trapezius muscle
4.Triceps brachii muscle
5.Deltoid
6.Lattissmus dorsi muscle
7.Digastric muscle
8.Mylohoid

YankeeBBQ
11-27-2013, 12:15 PM
I'll have to get the wife's porcine anatomy book out to be sure but I believe they remove the digastric muscle when they bone them out. There are 8 muscles in a pork butt btw. 1.Omohyoid muscle
2.Sternothyroid muscle
3.Trapezius muscle
4.Triceps brachii muscle
5.Deltoid
6.Lattissmus dorsi muscle
7.Digastric muscle
8.Mylohoid



So if I define Tenderloin as: DSMO Cut weighing a minimum of 10 lbs at inspection that takes away any gray area right ? We've defined what cuts are legal in our pork rule.

BMerrill
11-27-2013, 03:58 PM
The new pork rule: What does it really mean?

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

The final pork rule (2014) above may not mean what the BOD intended. We can argue our personal interpretation of the meaning of the words in the pork rule or use a crystal ball to interpret the BOD line of thinking, or can we.

To definitively decipher the rule, we must understand about creating rules and regulation specifically what do words mean. Simply, if a word is to be limited or defined in a manner different than found in commonly available dictionaries then the definition must be provided.

The words with the most discussion or “gray area” in their meanings are “trim” , “whole”, and “cooked”; none of which are defined in the rule(s). Therefore, a dictionary must be consulted.

From Merriam Webster:

Trim
verb

1) to cut (something) off something else
2) to remove (something) by cutting
3) to make (something) neat by cutting it
4) to make the size, amount, or extent of (something) smaller


Now we apply the four (4) definitions to the rule by substituting the meanings for the word “trimming”.

The rule: “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole….”

“After cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After removing (something) by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After making it neat by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After making the size, amount, or extent smaller, pork shall be cooked whole….”


Whole
adjective

1) complete or full

2) not lacking or leaving out any part
2) having all the parts
3) not divided or cut into parts or pieces
4) great or large in size, extent, etc.

Referring to the sentence in the rule, “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole”…... “Whole” is an adjective which qualifies a noun or pronoun in the same sentence. Therefore, we can conclude “whole” is referring to “pork” after the act of trimming.


cook
verb

1) to prepare for eating by a heating process
2) to go through the process of being cooked


The new pork rule when applying common meanings reads like this.

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming (cutting, removing pieces by cutting, making neat by cutting, or making the size, amount, or extent smaller), pork shall be cooked (prepared for eating by heating above *145°) whole (trimmed pork) (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked (prepared for eating by heating above 145°)*, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."


*145° was added to further define “cooked” because 145° is the lowest temperature pork is considered safe to eat.

Much clearer now isn't it. Maybe not?


Is a pork collar legal?

No. Because pork collars are not defined as "Pork" in the rule even if they come from one of the parts of the shoulder. Refering to the
definition from the Pork Council, all parts contain a bone. Pork collars do not contain bones.

The rule.
"Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection"


The Pork Council defines Pork shoulder as the top portion of the front leg of the hog. The terminology for pork shoulder can vary widely depending on the region. However, the lower ‘arm’ portion of the shoulder is most commonly called the arm Picnic. The upper part of the shoulder, often called the Boston Blade Roast (also known as Boston- style Butt), comes from the area near the loin and contains the shoulder blade bone.


Is a 4+ pound boneless Butt legal?


Yes, as long as the muscles around the bone are present.




After inspection can the Butt be trimmed down to the pork collar?


No. The rule allows trimming but after trimming it still has to meet the definition of PORK. Therefore, post trimmed pork should contain all the muscles of the inspected product.

71-South
11-27-2013, 04:41 PM
So, with this new rule change for 2014, are the folks who are trimming MM but leaving "in tact" by leaving a sliver of fat cap attached cheating or legal?

This is also what I want to know. I could care less about the politics of the rule. I just want to know, from someone who can answer on behalf of the board, if this method is legal.

Smoke'n Ice
11-27-2013, 05:12 PM
Another idea for the rule would be as follows:

Current
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

Suggested
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After minimal trimming with all muscle groups left intact with no separation, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

Or simpler yet, eliminate the word "SLICED." Without this word, all of the above conversation is mute.

Slamdunkpro
11-27-2013, 05:54 PM
After inspection can the Butt be trimmed down to the pork collar?

No. The rule allows trimming but after trimming it still has to meet the definition of PORK. Therefore, post trimmed pork should contain all the muscles of the inspected product.
Just to nit it up a bit the answer to this is No because pork collars contain portions of the loin between the first and second or even the third rostral ribs. IMPS Boston butts/roasts are broken at the first rostral rib.

Pappy Q
11-27-2013, 06:15 PM
What the fark was wrong with the rule to start with?

Hawg Father of Seoul
11-27-2013, 09:20 PM
Are you talking about pork collar? If so, there has already been a rep advisory that explicitly states that defines what "Pork" is and pork collar is not a part of that definition. Therefore, illegal meat even with the new rule.

If however you are talking about some other type of pork that would fit the KCBS definition, then I would be curious to know more. :twisted:

So a "rep advisory" that is not part of the printed rules supersedes the NEW rules that competitors actually look at. Bullchit!! If KCBS believes that, double bullchit. You should not have to be a lawyer to BBQ.

If I take a pork shoulder and trim it to 4 pounds I am above reproach. The rule states 4 pounds before trimming.

Hawg Father of Seoul
11-27-2013, 09:32 PM
Don't they teach reading and COMPREHENSION these days ?

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

Says Boston Butt, Boston Roast , Picnic and/or whole shoulder. Where does it say Pork Collar or SNF Euro Cut pork roast ? Cheat if you want, you probably won't get caught but if you do remember somebody got banned for 3 years just for wearing a penis apron.

Sir. Please refrain from such ad hominem attacks . The fact that a board member would bring penisgate back up after upholding such a suspension is admonishable.

Personally I will still cook mine whole BECAUSE I CAN. You passed this flacid rule for those who can't.

My statement was made because I hate all this "your cheating" Nancing about. Too bad it just made more. BTW if it takes two pages of stuff to explain a rule.... it is not good enough. Work on concision.

Bubba
11-28-2013, 07:56 AM
All I want is to know what I can cook not how it can be cooked. It amazes me that something so simple can be so difficult. Kcbs should only specify what cuts of meat are legal not how to cook. I don't care if you separate or not.

Rich Parker
11-28-2013, 08:05 AM
All I want is to know what I can cook not how it can be cooked. It amazes me that something so simple can be so difficult. Kcbs should only specify what cuts of meat are legal not how to cook. I don't care if you separate or not.

Thanks for being upfront and honest how you feel the rules should go as it will make it easier to vote. Good luck in the election.

dirtydingus
11-28-2013, 10:26 AM
What the fark was wrong with the rule to start with?
Bingo!!!!:clap:

MuleTuf
11-28-2013, 05:38 PM
it didn't allow cooking the money muscle by itself.

BMerrill
11-28-2013, 06:23 PM
it didn't allow cooking the money muscle by itself.

The new rule does not allow the money muscle or any muscle to be cooked by it self. Pork must be cooked whole, but does allow for separation after it is done.

First line of the rule defines what pork is.
After trimming it still has to meet the definition of pork.

Smoke'n Ice
11-28-2013, 07:09 PM
The new rule does not allow the money muscle or any muscle to be cooked by it self. Pork must be cooked whole, but does allow for separation after it is done.

First line of the rule defines what pork is.
After trimming it still has to meet the definition of pork.

Exactly where does it state this?

Pappy Q
11-28-2013, 07:11 PM
it didn't allow cooking the money muscle by itself.

So........is it a MM category or a farking pork category?

musicmanryann
11-28-2013, 07:22 PM
Exactly where does it state this?

The first part of the rule defines what 'PORK" is. It then goes on to say, after trimming, "PORK" shall be cooked whole. I'd say it says it right there exactly.

musicmanryann
11-28-2013, 07:23 PM
So........is it a MM category or a farking pork category?

Pork.

musicmanryann
11-28-2013, 07:43 PM
So a "rep advisory" that is not part of the printed rules supersedes the NEW rules that competitors actually look at. Bullchit!! If KCBS believes that, double bullchit. You should not have to be a lawyer to BBQ.

If I take a pork shoulder and trim it to 4 pounds I am above reproach. The rule states 4 pounds before trimming.

The rep advisories are not meant to supersede any rule, but rather articulate and/or clarify how the rep should interpret a rule. This is important as it is always up the the rep as to what is allowed and what is not at any given contest. In this case Rep advisory 4.11 clarifies exactly what the word "pork" is to mean in the pork rule:

4.11 Pork Collar
The board was asked to address the issue, if the cut known as “pork collar” is a legal cut for purposes of entry in a KCBS contest.
Opinion: The Boards answer is no.

Rule 10 states:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker.

The KCBS Board of Directors has adopted the National Pork Board’s definitions which define the standard for cuts of Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403). Pork Collar is not included in these approved “American” definitions of food service cuts of pork. Therefore pork collar is not an acceptable cut to be approved at meat inspection or turned in for the purposes of competition under the rules of KCBS. In the event a pork collar cut is turned in it shall receive a score of 1 by all judges in all criteria as a foreign object being a non-approved cut of meat.


Given that reps are instructed to define "Pork" in this way, I would interpret this to say if at any point prior to "Pork" being "cooked' I must be within this definition. In other words, if, prior to it being cooked, I trim it down to something that is not item 406, 405, or 403, it is an illegal cut.

Smoke'n Ice
11-28-2013, 07:43 PM
The first part of the rule defines what 'PORK" is. It then goes on to say, after trimming, "PORK" shall be cooked whole. I'd say it says it right there exactly.

The money muscle is pork!

musicmanryann
11-28-2013, 07:51 PM
The money muscle is pork!

Not according to the KCBS definition.

Smoke'n Ice
11-28-2013, 07:58 PM
Not according to the KCBS definition.

I believe that the way the rule is written is part of the problem. Each person reads it the way they want to interpret it, not the way that the board meant or the intent of the rule. With a minor amount of clarification by the BOD, there would be no room for this. Write the rule so that it clearly conveys the intent and reasoning with minimal room for interpretation.
If I trim the butt that meets the definition after inspection and only cook that which is left after trimming then I am within the rule. If I try cook some of the trimmings, then I parted the pork and that is illegal.
Who says what constitutes trimming other that removing what is not needed or wanted? If the only thing I want or need is the MM, then so be it, I waste a bunch of money but it is my money.

musicmanryann
11-28-2013, 08:13 PM
The first part of the rule clearly defines what "pork" is and then goes on to say "pork" has to be cooked whole. It seems intentional to me. If you trim it to something that does not meet the definition of "pork" it is illegal.

When it comes down to it, I am merely trying to point out how KCBS may interpret the new rule to keep people from getting in trouble. Personally I will continue cooking my 10 pound pork butts whole.

I am curious if anyone has other substantive issues with the modified rule, beyond it allowing smaller cuts?

Smoke'n Ice
11-28-2013, 08:20 PM
Don't get me wrong. I am from NC and firmly believe that if you can slice it, it aint done. That being said, if you trim it and it weights less than 4 pounds after trimming, it does not meet the definition according to your interpretation whether all the muscles remain intact or not.

musicmanryann
11-28-2013, 08:28 PM
That being said, if you trim it and it weights less than 4 pounds after trimming, it does not meet the definition according to your interpretation whether all the muscles remain intact or not.

Correct

musicmanryann
11-28-2013, 08:37 PM
Don't get me wrong. I am from NC and firmly believe that if you can slice it, it aint done. That being said, if you trim it and it weights less than 4 pounds after trimming, it does not meet the definition according to your interpretation whether all the muscles remain intact or not.

I could be wrong, but I am guessing this is why they wanted to leave the 5 pound minimum rule out to begin with--also why it likely passed with the addition of the 4 lb minimum. It is an arbitrary weight given you can only go so small on a shoulder whilst keeping it within the boundaries of the definition.

Hawg Father of Seoul
11-28-2013, 08:38 PM
The rep advisories are not meant to supersede any rule, but rather articulate and/or clarify how the rep should interpret a rule. This is important as it is always up the the rep as to what is allowed and what is not at any given contest. In this case Rep advisory 4.11 clarifies exactly what the word "pork" is to mean in the pork rule:

4.11 Pork Collar
The board was asked to address the issue, if the cut known as “pork collar” is a legal cut for purposes of entry in a KCBS contest.
Opinion: The Boards answer is no.

Rule 10 states:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker.

The KCBS Board of Directors has adopted the National Pork Board’s definitions which define the standard for cuts of Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403). Pork Collar is not included in these approved “American” definitions of food service cuts of pork. Therefore pork collar is not an acceptable cut to be approved at meat inspection or turned in for the purposes of competition under the rules of KCBS. In the event a pork collar cut is turned in it shall receive a score of 1 by all judges in all criteria as a foreign object being a non-approved cut of meat.


Given that reps are instructed to define "Pork" in this way, I would interpret this to say if at any point prior to "Pork" being "cooked' I must be within this definition. In other words, if, prior to it being cooked, I trim it down to something that is not item 406, 405, or 403, it is an illegal cut.

Yeah, I would have to say that just the part I highlighted is enough to illuminate my point. That rep advisory clarifies the OLD rule, not the new one.

Other than that we will have to agree to disagree and I, as you, will continue to cook the big butts whole.

But come on, who was the DA to throw in 4 pounds? :caked:

dmprantz
11-29-2013, 01:17 PM
The KCBS Board of Directors has adopted the National Pork Board’s definitions which define the standard for cuts of Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403). Pork Collar is not included in these approved “American” definitions of food service cuts of pork.
....
In other words, if, prior to it being cooked, I trim it down to something that is not item 406, 405, or 403, it is an illegal cut.

Good info! One of the things that I wondered a bit is what happens if according to IMPS/NAMP if a 403A (Pork Shoulder, Long Cut) is then further butched as described for 406? Does any one do that? Is it still considered a 406, is it some other cut? Must a 406 come from a 403? If so, what does the above cut become? Something without number?

Before any one says that the above doesn't mention 403A, my question is about what does IMPS/NAMP consider a valid 406? Also, even though it's not described above, KCBS allows a 405A and 406A (boneless versions), so non-listed variants are legal in some situations.

Talk to your rep of course ;-)

dmp

HawgPound
11-30-2013, 01:43 AM
The money muscle is pork!

Trotters are pork. Chitlins are pork. Pork meatballs are pork. Ribs are pork. Should you be able to turn in ribs as your pork entry? I say no. When we say " pork" we should be saying "pork entry as defined by the KCBS rules"

djqualls
11-30-2013, 12:28 PM
Not to hijack but.... This whole rules confusion is the product of teleconference meetings.

No organization can adequately function when their business is conducted via teleconference only. The BoD has too many members as it is. The rules should be written plain and simple with foot notes to the intention. When you write a constitutional essay for each rule you get the KCBS catalog of Pork Rules...

After cooking 36 contests in 11 different states this year, No two were regulated with any consistency. This is a Administrative deficiency in which in turn once again is a BoD responsibility which will never be addressed telephonically.

It would seem from the outside looking in that the whole organization needs an update/overhaul. This whole Pork debacle represents that, but that won't happen until the money runs out I suppose.

Bubba
11-30-2013, 03:03 PM
Amen brother.

Scottie
11-30-2013, 05:05 PM
The Dream in 2015!!!!

djqualls
11-30-2013, 06:03 PM
The Dream in 2015!!!!


Only if we can meet in a Cage..... Now That'd Be Funky!

CBQ
11-30-2013, 08:08 PM
The rules should be written plain and simple with foot notes to the intention. When you write a constitutional essay for each rule you get the KCBS catalog of Pork Rules..

I agree, rules should be simply stated. As written, it's quite clear in it's intent. People are trying to twist it into something it's not by saying stuff like "What does Pork mean anyway?" but that's trying to inject a lot of legalese into a rule that is (rightly) a few sentences.

You have to cook a shoulder, boston butt, or a picnic. You can't cut it up into little pieces until it's cooked. After that, you can. Simply. Easy. We know what it means. The reps know what it means. Trying to wordsmith it into something else is a waste of time.

Scottie
12-01-2013, 06:48 AM
But by not wordsmithing you will get what we had. Folks interpreting it And thinking they can put their pulled, sliced or chunked was not considered parting. Look, the only way this rule will ever be good is to get the BOD to have reps enforce it. The BOD is controlled by reps. Why does anyone think that reps would support this extra work and step? They obviously would rather have teams bending and breaking the rules is what it tells me. Does more cooks on the BOD work? I'm not really sure how this rule clears any confusion, other than people that can't cook can reheat their product after they pull it. This whole crap about serving warm food? BS. I have to wear special gloves to handle my pork and I guess I am in a small percentage of cooks that is good enough to get both pulled and sliced from the same butt. Oh some BOD member will come along and compare what my scores have done recently and maybe I don't really know how to cook pork. Not sure how that adds to any of this mass chaos that has been created and not clearly defined though.....

CBQ
12-01-2013, 10:54 AM
Scottie, some people are always going to try and bend the rule to suit them. Just look at the discussion here. The intent of the rule is crystal clear, but some people are going to try and twist it anyway. Short of having a two page rule, I think that's always going to be the case. I'm OK with the new rule, but the old one was fine too. I doubt I'm changing the way I cook pork.

loco_engr
12-01-2013, 02:56 PM
So whatever the Pork rule is in place in 2014, is it up to the table CBJ's
to look for, or does that happen before?
Thank You!

Smoke'n Ice
12-01-2013, 04:10 PM
Scottie, some people are always going to try and bend the rule to suit them. Just look at the discussion here. The intent of the rule is crystal clear, but some people are going to try and twist it anyway. Short of having a two page rule, I think that's always going to be the case. I'm OK with the new rule, but the old one was fine too. I doubt I'm changing the way I cook pork.

Crystal clear for whom? Reading the thread indicates that there may be confusion over the 4 lbs, before it is inspected or 4 lbs when it hits the cooker or both? What constitutes trimming? Trimming for some may be parting for others. But parting implies that all will be cooked while trimming implies that some will not be used or cooked. Need a few additional words to actually convey the intent of the rule.

I currently cook 2 8-10 pounds butts and get what I need from them once cooked. Others don't. When I am preparing my turn-in tray, I wear heat gloves so I can pull and slice and chunk. At this stage it is going in the box because turn-in time is less than 5 minutes away. Why do I need to put it back on the smoker? Set the sauce?

I pulled the pork at some temp and placed in a cambro prior to the box stage. Most of the time I have already started the cooling cycle for my cookers and starting the packing process.

I question the need for the rule except for clarification of the old rule unless it is for those who can't cook pork. Just being a devils advocate http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-stirthepot.gif

White Dog BBQ
12-01-2013, 05:29 PM
Wow, I never realized the way to see if someone is a great pork cook is to see how hot their pork is while being prepped for the box. Instead of having reps do spot inspections of pork, maybe they should just stick Thermopens into everyone's pork at 12:45 and see whose pork is hottest? Might improve my pork results.

I'm not sure why so much focus is on how a pork butt is cooked, while the other categories have turned into phosphate-laden, butter-braised hunks of meat that bear a passing resemblance to BBQ. Want to accentuate skill in BBQ competitions? Ban the use of phosphates (the only purpose of which is to allow meat to retain moisture if overcooked) and braising in butter (which is not, as far as I understand it, a traditional BBQ cooking method). No, I am not advocating either, but I don't see how we can say a deboned chicken thigh ball injected with phosphates and cooked in a vat of melted Parkay is still a measure of someone's BBQ skill, but allowing someone to reheat their pulled pork is dumbing things down.

Oh, and before anyone asks -- I need to wear thick cotton gloves underneath nitrile gloves when I pull pork. :-)

Alexa RnQ
12-01-2013, 05:38 PM
Scottie, some people are always going to try and bend the rule to suit them. Just look at the discussion here. The intent of the rule is crystal clear, but some people are going to try and twist it anyway. Short of having a two page rule, I think that's always going to be the case. I'm OK with the new rule, but the old one was fine too.
Exactly. The intent of the OLD rule was crystal clear, and yet we ended up with the Pork Collar Advisory being read at every cooks' meeting so that we all could recite it verbatim by the end of the season, and people posting on this very forum that they were damn well going to reheat (or "set sauce" :roll:) whatever they wanted because nobody was going to catch them.

The big push to change the rule to allow returning parted pork to the cooker is just to legalize what was already going on.

butt head
12-01-2013, 06:36 PM
The money muscle is pork!

were can I get a 5lb mm

SITM BBQ
12-01-2013, 06:38 PM
Scottie, some people are always going to try and bend the rule to suit them. Just look at the discussion here. The intent of the rule is crystal clear, but some people are going to try and twist it anyway. Short of having a two page rule, I think that's always going to be the case. I'm OK with the new rule, but the old one was fine too. I doubt I'm changing the way I cook pork.

I completely agree, the rule is what it is and I will not change the way I cook pork as I was within the rules last year. I think it is a simple rule as well as it should be. Those who read the rule with no agenda will interpret it as the BOD intended, to challenge the teams to cook a large piece of meat and make it great, without having to separate it into smaller parts precook.

MuleTuf
12-01-2013, 08:17 PM
[QUOTE=Smoke'n Ice;2710619]Another idea for the rule would be as follows:

Current
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

Suggested
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After minimal trimming with all muscle groups left intact with no separation, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

Great suggestion but "Cooked" needs to be defined as "Above 160 degrees" ?? otherwise rule benders will throw it on the smoker 5 minutes, then part it and throw it on the grill...

CBQ
12-01-2013, 09:09 PM
Crystal clear for whom? Reading the thread indicates that there may be confusion over the 4 lbs, before it is inspected or 4 lbs when it hits the cooker or both?

It's right there in the rule, at the time of inspection.

What constitutes trimming? Trimming for some may be parting for others. But parting implies that all will be cooked while trimming implies that some will not be used or cooked.

Trimming is removing some of the fat and shaping the meat. Cutting off the money muscle and throwing the rest of the butt out is not trimming. How do we know this? If this was not the intent of the rule, there would be no need to refer to cooking the butt whole. The wording of the rule makes the intent clear. Cook it to 145 degrees and then do what you want with it.

You are correct that trimming implies the trimmed material is waste and not cooked. It's no longer part of the "whole" butt.

I currently cook 2 8-10 pounds butts and get what I need from them once cooked. Others don't. When I am preparing my turn-in tray, I wear heat gloves so I can pull and slice and chunk. At this stage it is going in the box because turn-in time is less than 5 minutes away. Why do I need to put it back on the smoker? Set the sauce?

You don't have to return pork to the smoker, but you could if you wanted to under this rule. I cook my pork whole, and pull just before it's boxed - and this rule change won't alter my process. I could see that at some contests (like the freezing weather at The Jack this year) pulling everything earlier and putting the turn in items back on the heat for a short time before boxing might be a benefit.

dmprantz
12-01-2013, 10:30 PM
To all the people who say that the rule was "crystal clear," and only cheaters try to bend it, was the old rule designed to allow people to clean out the connective tissue in a butt, isolating 3-4 distinct muscles, and cook it like a bloomin onion for later cutting? Was the rule intended to allow a person to isolate the money musle, leaving it attached by a 2 mm piece of connective tissue so that it can be sliced later on?

That's what people were doing with the old rule, and it doesn't sound much like real BBQ to me. I'm sure some people will continue to do all that with the new rule. For some reason, every time I ask this, no one defends the practice, even though every one knows it happens. Why don't people talk about that more? Oh yeah, now I remember....

dmp

BMerrill
12-02-2013, 07:38 AM
Don't forget that "Pork" after trimming has to still meet what the BOD defined as "Pork" in the first line. So trimming off the MM and cooking just it is not legal.

Funtimebbq
12-02-2013, 09:23 AM
To all the people who say that the rule was "crystal clear," and only cheaters try to bend it, was the old rule designed to allow people to clean out the connective tissue in a butt, isolating 3-4 distinct muscles, and cook it like a bloomin onion for later cutting? Was the rule intended to allow a person to isolate the money musle, leaving it attached by a 2 mm piece of connective tissue so that it can be sliced later on?

That's what people were doing with the old rule, and it doesn't sound much like real BBQ to me. I'm sure some people will continue to do all that with the new rule. For some reason, every time I ask this, no one defends the practice, even though every one knows it happens. Why don't people talk about that more? Oh yeah, now I remember....

dmp

I don't see where the new rule prohibits that practice as long as the muscles in the butts are attached to each other during the initial cooking process. The words "cooked whole" is not violated. However, if the intent of the BOD was for this practice to be banned, they did not do a good job of defining what "cooked whole" means.

dmprantz
12-02-2013, 10:23 AM
The words "cooked whole" is not violated.

I agree that it's not cheating, and have never meant to imply that it was. Still, isn't the rule crystal clear? Aren't you supposed to buy a butt, perform minimal trimming, and cook it whole? Aren't muscles attached with token strings bent rules?

dmp

INmitch
12-02-2013, 01:09 PM
I agree that it's not cheating, and have never meant to imply that it was. Still, isn't the rule crystal clear? Aren't you supposed to buy a butt, perform minimal trimming, and cook it whole? Aren't muscles attached with token strings bent rules?

dmp

Bent maybe...but not broken.

CBQ
12-02-2013, 01:16 PM
I agree that it's not cheating, and have never meant to imply that it was. Still, isn't the rule crystal clear? Aren't you supposed to buy a butt, perform minimal trimming, and cook it whole? Aren't muscles attached with token strings bent rules?

dmp

You are right, it's not cheating, but maybe against the intent of the rule. The old rule didn't prevent it, and neither does this one. I'm not sure how you would write a clear, concise rule that prevented it.

I would love a Brethen poll on this - how many people really do it? The teams I know don't cook that way. You can cook a hot 'n fast whole butt in under 5 hours - what's the advantage to hanging a MM on a string?

Q-Dat
12-05-2013, 12:34 PM
You are right, it's not cheating, but maybe against the intent of the rule. The old rule didn't prevent it, and neither does this one. I'm not sure how you would write a clear, concise rule that prevented it.

I would love a Brethen poll on this - how many people really do it? The teams I know don't cook that way. You can cook a hot 'n fast whole butt in under 5 hours - what's the advantage to hanging a MM on a string?

Why not just say that only surface trimming is allowed, and that isolation of muscles or muscle groups is prohibited.

Or allow the crazy trimming, but require the butt to be tied into a solid mass with butcher string after trimming.

bbq.tom
12-05-2013, 01:53 PM
So whatever the Pork rule is in place in 2014, is it up to the table CBJ's
to look for, or does that happen before?
Thank You!

NO, it is NOT up to the table (TC or judges) to determine how the team actually cooked the pork - whole, partial, other...

This is a REP issue.

wmaes47
12-05-2013, 03:02 PM
:clap2:The new pork rule: What does it really mean?

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

The final pork rule (2014) above may not mean what the BOD intended. We can argue our personal interpretation of the meaning of the words in the pork rule or use a crystal ball to interpret the BOD line of thinking, or can we.

To definitively decipher the rule, we must understand about creating rules and regulation specifically what do words mean. Simply, if a word is to be limited or defined in a manner different than found in commonly available dictionaries then the definition must be provided.

The words with the most discussion or “gray area” in their meanings are “trim” , “whole”, and “cooked”; none of which are defined in the rule(s). Therefore, a dictionary must be consulted.

From Merriam Webster:

Trim
verb

1) to cut (something) off something else
2) to remove (something) by cutting
3) to make (something) neat by cutting it
4) to make the size, amount, or extent of (something) smaller


Now we apply the four (4) definitions to the rule by substituting the meanings for the word “trimming”.

The rule: “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole….”

“After cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After removing (something) by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After making it neat by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After making the size, amount, or extent smaller, pork shall be cooked whole….”


Whole
adjective

1) complete or full

2) not lacking or leaving out any part
2) having all the parts
3) not divided or cut into parts or pieces
4) great or large in size, extent, etc.

Referring to the sentence in the rule, “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole”…... “Whole” is an adjective which qualifies a noun or pronoun in the same sentence. Therefore, we can conclude “whole” is referring to “pork” after the act of trimming.


cook
verb

1) to prepare for eating by a heating process
2) to go through the process of being cooked


The new pork rule when applying common meanings reads like this.

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming (cutting, removing pieces by cutting, making neat by cutting, or making the size, amount, or extent smaller), pork shall be cooked (prepared for eating by heating above *145°) whole (trimmed pork) (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked (prepared for eating by heating above 145°)*, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."


*145° was added to further define “cooked” because 145° is the lowest temperature pork is considered safe to eat.

Much clearer now isn't it. Maybe not?


Is a pork collar legal?

No. Because pork collars are not defined as "Pork" in the rule even if they come from one of the parts of the shoulder. Refering to the
definition from the Pork Council, all parts contain a bone. Pork collars do not contain bones.

The rule.
"Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection"


The Pork Council defines Pork shoulder as the top portion of the front leg of the hog. The terminology for pork shoulder can vary widely depending on the region. However, the lower ‘arm’ portion of the shoulder is most commonly called the arm Picnic. The upper part of the shoulder, often called the Boston Blade Roast (also known as Boston- style Butt), comes from the area near the loin and contains the shoulder blade bone.


Is a 4+ pound boneless Butt legal?


Yes, as long as the muscles around the bone are present.




After inspection can the Butt be trimmed down to the pork collar?


No. The rule allows trimming but after trimming it still has to meet the definition of PORK. Therefore, post trimmed pork should contain all the muscles of the inspected product.

This is the best explanation that covers word by word an explanation for any question, wordsmith change or rule bending that I have ever seen for anything... Read this and believe the intent of the KCBS BOD of the 2014 rule as intended... :clap2:

I will take the KCBS BOD 2014 Pork Rule as written for each word and apply as a Rep at any contest I am privileged to represent for The Kansas Barbeque Society.

Bill Maes