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Bigmista
10-21-2013, 01:56 PM
Should burnt ends have some crispness or bark on the outside or just be tender all over like cubed point?

timzcardz
10-21-2013, 02:06 PM
Mista, I'm not a judge, but I have had a couple of top 5 finishes in brisket turning in nothing but burnt ends.

I would not even consider doing them without a little crispy bark. Bark is flavor.

nucornhusker
10-21-2013, 02:06 PM
As a judge and a cook, I would prefer just tender and no crispness. However, I'm sure you will hear plenty from both sides. I want bark for flavor, but nothing too much to bite through.

5string
10-21-2013, 02:08 PM
I personally prefer a bit of bark on them but would not lower my score if they are tender and have good flavor. I can tell you that seeing burnt ends in a box puts me in a better mood.

Bbq Bubba
10-21-2013, 02:59 PM
Burnt Ends without bark???

Definetly NOT crispy though.

bbq.tom
10-21-2013, 03:19 PM
As a judge we are to judge what is presented - some teams put in true burnt ends and some just put in cubed point. I'll judge each according on how well it is done for Appearance, Taste, & Tenderness. My personal preference (doesn't come into play when I'm judging) is for true burnt ends with a little crispyness to the bark and that awsome flavor, but all too often I just get cubed point. I often wonder if the team really knows what a true burnt end is! Just like many judges don't really know what a true burnt end is. We judge what we get.

CivilWarBBQ
10-21-2013, 03:20 PM
Neil, I'm a master judge and a cook.

I can tell you that here in the Southeast, KCBS judges will kill you on tenderness if you turn in anything in a brisket box that could be described as "chewy" or "crispy". They equate it to "tough" and will likely hit you with a 5-7 score.

I understand it may be different in other regions, but down here these days KCBS judges define a "burnt end" as "soft cube of brisket, not necessarily from the point".

Cayman1
10-21-2013, 03:24 PM
Neil, I'm a master judge and a cook.

I can tell you that here in the Southeast, KCBS judges will kill you on tenderness if you turn in anything in a brisket box that could be described as "chewy" or "crispy". They equate it to "tough" and will likely hit you with a 5-7 score.

I understand it may be different in other regions, but down here these days KCBS judges define a "burnt end" as "soft cube of brisket, not necessarily from the point".

With or without bark?

bbq.tom
10-21-2013, 03:26 PM
Neil, I'm a master judge and a cook.

I can tell you that here in the Southeast, KCBS judges will kill you on tenderness if you turn in anything in a brisket box that could be described as "chewy" or "crispy". They equate it to "tough" and will likely hit you with a 5-7 score.

I understand it may be different in other regions, but down here these days KCBS judges define a "burnt end" as "soft cube of brisket, not necessarily from the point".

Unfortunately, that statement is true, simply because many southeastern judges don't know what a true burnt end is. Brisket is just something that isn't found too much in the southeast and the judges from around here don't know what it is supposed to be like.

DUBBAGA
10-21-2013, 04:56 PM
In Lancaster my table had a brisket entry with some very tender burnt ends included. They were lightly sauced, and possibly returned to the cooker for a very short amount of time to set things up. The table enjoyed the burnt ends, but agreed that they could have used additional time to render out the fat further. If that was done, there would have been more texture on the exterior, which could be described as crispness once the fat rendered even more

Pappy Q
10-21-2013, 04:58 PM
Neil, I'm a master judge and a cook.

I can tell you that here in the Southeast, KCBS judges will kill you on tenderness if you turn in anything in a brisket box that could be described as "chewy" or "crispy". They equate it to "tough" and will likely hit you with a 5-7 score.

I understand it may be different in other regions, but down here these days KCBS judges define a "burnt end" as "soft cube of brisket, not necessarily from the point".

That explains some things as I've been turning in traditional burnt ends that were amazing in my opinon but the judges didn't. I'll remember that at Cummings.

Uomograsso
10-21-2013, 05:36 PM
Very tricky question. If you turn in cubed point and don't cook it long enough to render out the fat you will get scored down by judges that know what a "true" burnt end is. I've sat at a table where a judge expressed that opinion after having burnt ends that still had a lot of fat left in them. If you turn in true burnt ends and have judges that don't know what a "true" burnt end is you could get scored because they are crispy and/or chewy. If there are pieces with bark in the box I don't let them affect my tenderness score unless they are very, very crispy/chewy.

carlyle
10-21-2013, 05:46 PM
I think BBQ Tom said it right - I will judge what is presented.

Does not matter either way to me.

What matters is: does it enhance whatever else is in the box. Or does it detract.

It is all a matter of degrees - too much crispy = tough and dry.

EMTTLC
10-21-2013, 06:42 PM
I've judged boxes with true burnt ends (point pieces seasoned up real good with a great bark and juicy tender insides), cubed point, cubed flat, and variations of all of the above. If it looks appealing, tastes good, and is tender - it's scores well. If it's chewy, has big globs of unrendered fat, or is really dry - it scores poorly. I personally try to put six pieces of cubed point which are identical in my boxes. I cube them, season them and place them in a pan with au jus covered with foil until they are fall apart tender. Not truly burnt ends, just a presentation of brisket. I've done 8 comps this year with 5 top 10's in brisket, my way is getting decent results, still no 1st place.

Porcine Perfection
10-22-2013, 06:51 AM
As a judge we are to judge what is presented - some teams put in true burnt ends and some just put in cubed point. I'll judge each according on how well it is done for Appearance, Taste, & Tenderness. My personal preference (doesn't come into play when I'm judging) is for true burnt ends with a little crispyness to the bark and that awsome flavor, but all too often I just get cubed point. I often wonder if the team really knows what a true burnt end is! Just like many judges don't really know what a true burnt end is. We judge what we get.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I prefer a more crispy burnt end but my lovely wife just likes hers cubed off the point. Which IMO really isn't a burnt end.

Rick Hamilton
10-22-2013, 07:01 AM
I don't turn in "burnt ends". I do turn in both flat and point. I slice the flat and I cube the point. Same as turning in different parts of a pork butt. I hope I am not being judged based on some preconceived notion of what I put in the box. Judge it for what it is.

ModelMaker
10-22-2013, 08:43 AM
Neil, I'm a master judge and a cook.

I can tell you that here in the Southeast, KCBS judges will kill you on tenderness if you turn in anything in a brisket box that could be described as "chewy" or "crispy". They equate it to "tough" and will likely hit you with a 5-7 score.

I understand it may be different in other regions, but down here these days KCBS judges define a "burnt end" as "soft cube of brisket, not necessarily from the point".


Wow, your painting a picture with a brush that does'nt belong to you. How did you become spokesperson for all KCBS judges "there in the southeast" ? Are your statements 100% agreed upon by all Southeast KCBS judges? Was there a class that instructed all Southeast KCBS judges to give a certain score for meat in a certain condition?
Did KCBS rules committiee rewrite the rules and make a definition for "burnt ends" as "soft cubes of brisket, not necessarily from the point".

If you want to present your thoughts as personal opinion, then I can roll with that, but to indicate them as fact from KCBS or "All Southeast judges" then that's not right.
Ed

John Bowen
10-22-2013, 09:08 AM
I understand your point Model Maker but as a judge and a cook myself what he states has a great deal of truth in it. In fact many of the teams that win around the southern area don't even turn in burnt ends - they just cook flats. The last two comps I was in first place brisket went to teams that just cooked flats - they did not even mess with burnt ends.

bbq.tom
10-22-2013, 09:19 AM
Wow, your painting a picture with a brush that does'nt belong to you. How did you become spokesperson for all KCBS judges "there in the southeast" ? Are your statements 100% agreed upon by all Southeast KCBS judges? Was there a class that instructed all Southeast KCBS judges to give a certain score for meat in a certain condition?
Did KCBS rules committiee rewrite the rules and make a definition for "burnt ends" as "soft cubes of brisket, not necessarily from the point".

If you want to present your thoughts as personal opinion, then I can roll with that, but to indicate them as fact from KCBS or "All Southeast judges" then that's not right.
Ed

Come on Ed, that was an opinion and a generalization about the SE area judges - NOT meant to be a hard fact. I agree with his opinion and generalization.

Uncle Buds BBQ
10-22-2013, 09:39 AM
Wow, your painting a picture with a brush that does'nt belong to you. How did you become spokesperson for all KCBS judges "there in the southeast" ? Are your statements 100% agreed upon by all Southeast KCBS judges? Was there a class that instructed all Southeast KCBS judges to give a certain score for meat in a certain condition?
Did KCBS rules committiee rewrite the rules and make a definition for "burnt ends" as "soft cubes of brisket, not necessarily from the point".

If you want to present your thoughts as personal opinion, then I can roll with that, but to indicate them as fact from KCBS or "All Southeast judges" then that's not right.
Ed

Lighten up!

Gowen knows more about cooking, judging, and organizing than most!

5string
10-22-2013, 10:01 AM
I'm a judge in the southeast. I know the difference between a burnt end and cubed point and cubed point that had been re-rubbed, cooked again, and presented as a "burnt end". "Crispy" to me, does not equate to "tough" or "chewy", but simply a little bark. Again, as many here have said, I judge what's in the box, whatever they intended it to be is unimportant. If the sample I'm eating is from the point or flat, it's judged on it's own merrit.

Candy Sue
10-22-2013, 10:37 AM
However you cook burnt ends, put them in the box if they are GOOD!

I messed up in Pensacola in 2012 -- cooked a fabulous 18# brisket. The burnt ends were the best I've ever done. Rendered, melt-in-your-mouth tender with a crispy (but not burnt) crust. I messed up turning in slices with them, but I figured judges wouldn't know what to do with a box of just burnt ends. Got 6th place that day. Have no doubt that those slices drug that score down. I've learned -- put your best in the box regardless of notions of what judges want.

EMTTLC
10-22-2013, 11:08 AM
I've had a few comps that I wanted to just put in some great burnt ends, but I was afraid to step that far out of the box.

cpw
10-22-2013, 11:24 AM
I've had a few comps that I wanted to just put in some great burnt ends, but I was afraid to step that far out of the box.

Same here. 9 times out of 10 our "burnt ends" are far and away better than our slices, but I'd be too afraid to just turn in burnt ends.

Anyone have a pic of a turn in box with just burnt ends?

ModelMaker
10-22-2013, 01:21 PM
Lighten up!

Gowen knows more about cooking, judging, and organizing than most!


Sorry, wasn't attempting to be harsh, but brother Neil was asking a question and the response what was his opinion (and welcome to it) looked to be presented as fact in speaking for a entire group of judges which I don't think is probably so.
Not lookin to rumble, just trying to make his opinion look like an opinion.
Ed

Jacked UP BBQ
10-22-2013, 02:19 PM
Since when is bark crispy? I would never turn in a crispy piece of brisket, all of my burnt ends have bark, none are crispy or hard. I guess the same goes for pork, soft bark.

Podge
10-22-2013, 03:29 PM
This entire thread is enough to convince a guy to never put "burnt ends" in a box anymore.

MikeJ65
10-22-2013, 04:38 PM
Just slice the point and they will think it's a Waygu flat.

CivilWarBBQ
10-23-2013, 03:43 AM
Wow, your painting a picture with a brush that does'nt belong to you. How did you become spokesperson for all KCBS judges "there in the southeast" ? Are your statements 100% agreed upon by all Southeast KCBS judges? Was there a class that instructed all Southeast KCBS judges to give a certain score for meat in a certain condition?
Did KCBS rules committiee rewrite the rules and make a definition for "burnt ends" as "soft cubes of brisket, not necessarily from the point".

If you want to present your thoughts as personal opinion, then I can roll with that, but to indicate them as fact from KCBS or "All Southeast judges" then that's not right.
Ed

Since you asked, let me assist you in understanding how this type of media works: ALL posts on Internet forums are personal opinion.

This forum, and others like it, have never been the place to come to find "Official Statements". Sometimes you will see factual information presented. Sometimes posts are made by Board Members and other office-holding people. Nevertheless, such posts merely represent the personal opinion of the author. But then you really knew that, didn't you? Of course, that's only my opinion. :D

My aim was to pass along my own real-world experience gleaned from the KCBS events I have participated in. From the response of most folks, I think they got that and accepted it in the spirit it was given. </brush returned>

Dragline
10-23-2013, 06:37 AM
Very confusing thread with no real direction kinda got lost in reading,maybe I just need a cup Ron is it hot?

Porcine Perfection
10-23-2013, 06:57 AM
Since when is bark crispy? I would never turn in a crispy piece of brisket, all of my burnt ends have bark, none are crispy or hard. I guess the same goes for pork, soft bark.

Boy are you missing out on something special. There is nothing better than to bite into a perfectly coked crispy burnt end. You get that first little taste of smokey almost bitter followed by the flavor explosion of juicy rendered fat perfection!

:hungry:Now i'm hungry. Time for breakfast! :hungry:

Wampus
10-23-2013, 08:15 AM
This entire thread is enough to convince a guy to never put "burnt ends" in a box anymore.

Exactly what I was thinking.
I'm not sure I even read a consensus on what defines "burnt ends" here.

cpw
10-23-2013, 09:58 AM
Exactly what I was thinking.
I'm not sure I even read a consensus on what defines "burnt ends" here.

I think that's why everyone (including myself) started putting "" around "burnt ends."

What we cook for a contest in my opinion isn't a real burnt end.

Podge
10-23-2013, 10:14 AM
I wouldn't doubt it if there was a trend starting to where people quit putting in burnt ends in the box.. that would be fine by me. I'd rather save them for myself anyway, instead of a judge who may or may not like them.. well, I know I like mine.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-23-2013, 10:17 AM
Boy are you missing out on something special. There is nothing better than to bite into a perfectly coked crispy burnt end. You get that first little taste of smokey almost bitter followed by the flavor explosion of juicy rendered fat perfection!

:hungry:Now i'm hungry. Time for breakfast! :hungry:

Almost bitter means over smoked in my opinion. I have had crispy burnt ends and dont really care for them. I have tried multiple teams that turn in crispy burnt ends and never liked the texture of any of them. I like the melt in your mouth feel of a burnt end all the way through the cut of meat. We also turn in sliced point as well and its tender all the way though, our flat slices are tender from top to bottom as well. At least thats our goal. Thats why I foil to keep a nice soft bark, there would be no other reason. If you are going to turn in burnt ends in my opinion, they better melt in your mouth like butter and have no stringy or grainy texture to them.

dirtydingus
10-23-2013, 11:47 AM
However you cook burnt ends, put them in the box if they are GOOD!

I messed up in Pensacola in 2012 -- cooked a fabulous 18# brisket. The burnt ends were the best I've ever done. Rendered, melt-in-your-mouth tender with a crispy (but not burnt) crust. I messed up turning in slices with them, but I figured judges wouldn't know what to do with a box of just burnt ends. Got 6th place that day. Have no doubt that those slices drug that score down. I've learned -- put your best in the box regardless of notions of what judges want.
I wholeheartedly agree with CAndy, "Put your best in the box" period. Although I haven't seen it the way Candy describes. Many times I have judged the slices and they were taste and tender 9's. Then the cook, I assume, thought that there box needed "Burnt Ends" to satisfy the judges. The unrendered fat brought their score down considerably. Why did they put those fatty burnt ends in the box. The only conclusion I can come up with is, they think the judges will score them down if they don't put them in. This happened quite often in my judging career.

Rich Parker
10-23-2013, 12:37 PM
I have only turned in burnt ends twice this year. I would rather not have the judge to focused on them when the main attraction is the slice.

bbqczar
10-23-2013, 01:00 PM
I have turned in burnt ends several times that I thought were great along with some really good brisket slices and we scored lower when we added the burnt ends and I thinks it's exactly because most judges have no idea what a TRUE burnt end should look or taste like so we rarely do it now.I have a question,are judges,at the judging class, taught what is a good,proper,burnt end ? If judges aren't taught how can they know and I've never seen this question asked nor answered anywhere.

Wampus
10-23-2013, 01:32 PM
I wouldn't doubt it if there was a trend starting to where people quit putting in burnt ends in the box.. that would be fine by me. I'd rather save them for myself anyway, instead of a judge who may or may not like them.. well, I know I like mine.

I'd say this trend has already started. At least around our camp. :wink:



Not that it seems to matter on our brisket scores..... :roll:

DUBBAGA
10-23-2013, 03:18 PM
I thinks it's exactly because most judges have no idea what a TRUE burnt end should look or taste like so we rarely do it now.I have a question,are judges,at the judging class, taught what is a good,proper,burnt end ? If judges aren't taught how can they know and I've never seen this question asked nor answered anywhere.

In our judging class we were not given any direction about burnt ends, as the discussion about brisket concentrated on the pull test and texture. When we were given our samples, there was an example of a burnt end, but there was very little discussion about it's merits (it was a farkin great example though... nicely rendered, only the slightest touch of sauce, and beefy juicy fatty goodness)

ShencoSmoke
10-23-2013, 03:23 PM
Kind of the opposite for us. Our slices are OK, still trying to perfect them. Our cubes have been dead on almost all year except for a few crappy briskets we cooked, and we left them out of the box at those comps. We were top 10 brisket all year and I'm almost sure it was because of our "burnt ends", ie cubes.

Funny side note story: last year (our second comp ever, lincolnton NC), our slices were so bad that were spitting them out as we walked to turn in brisket. We ended up with a top 5 in brisket, 100% sure the BE's were the reason.

Toast
10-23-2013, 08:53 PM
I've read this thread with great interest. I see "Real Burnt End" a lot as in "doesn't know what one is, just cubed point etc.

Can anyone define what a Real Burt End is? There seems to be a large swing on what Folks consider it to be.

ShencoSmoke
10-23-2013, 09:34 PM
I've read this thread with great interest. I see "Real Burnt End" a lot as in "doesn't know what one is, just cubed point etc.

Can anyone define what a Real Burt End is? There seems to be a large swing on what Folks consider it to be.

The cubes that come from the fist sized end of the point. As others have stated, they tend to have a little more bark or "crisp" than the rest of the point and it usually is the first part of the brisket to get probe tender.

Toast
10-23-2013, 09:45 PM
The cubes that come from the fist sized end of the point. As others have stated, they tend to have a little more bark or "crisp" than the rest of the point and it usually is the first part of the brisket to get probe tender.

Thank you SS, that clears it up some.

ModelMaker
10-24-2013, 08:34 AM
Here's an article that I think explains what burnt ends were orignally, leftover scraps and chunks from the brisket as it was cut for serving. They never were square evenly cut pieces of deckle as they are now.

"8) Optional: Burnt ends. Burnt ends (right) are amazingly flavorful bite-size crispy cubes. Originally they were simply edges and ends that were overcooked and trimmed off and munched by the kitchen staff. If there were any leftover, they were given away for free. Then, in 1970, in his marvelous book American Fried, Calvin Trillin wrote the following about Arthur Bryant's restaurant in Kansas City "The main course at Bryant's, as far as I'm concerned, is something that is given away for free -- the burned edges of the brisket. The counterman just pushes them over to the side as he slices the beef, and anyone who wants them helps himself. I dream of those burned edges. Sometimes, when I'm in some awful overpriced restaurant in some strange town -- all of my restaurant-finding techniques having failed, so that I'm left to choke down something that costs seven dollars and tastes like a medium-rare sponge -- a blank look comes over my face: I have just realized that at that very moment someone in Kansas City is being given those burned edges free."

Ed

Tim Aup
10-24-2013, 09:49 PM
So the burnt ends mostly come off the decal or the flat? Or does it matter?