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SOB
10-08-2013, 08:24 PM
Table 76 was a hot table with multiple top tens, 1st ribs and a lot of top 100 finishes. I also saw that table 86 had 1st, 2nd, and 8th overall briskets. That's crazy!!!

SOB
10-08-2013, 08:31 PM
Also just saw table 86 had all six pork entries in the top 76 out of 535 teams. Haha

poorolddan
10-08-2013, 10:16 PM
I'd bet table 86 was all non-cbj's and many not even trained judges by the way the seated us. They were scrambling to fill those seats as you can tel byhow many table captains did double duty.

Big Poppa
10-08-2013, 11:25 PM
table 16 was the kiss of death

bbq.tom
10-08-2013, 11:28 PM
table 16 was the kiss of death

Invitational or Open?

TooSaucedToPork
10-09-2013, 07:24 AM
I'd bet table 86 was all non-cbj's and many not even trained judges by the way the seated us. They were scrambling to fill those seats as you can tel byhow many table captains did double duty.

BUT looking at overall scores in all categories:

It was Clark Crew 1st on that table...they did VERY well across the Board and were the Grand Champion
Tippycanoe was 2nd on that table...they also did very well across the board and came in a respectable 9th overall
Weekend Warrior was number 8. They finished in the middle of the pack in everything else...They could have had really good Brisket, or it could be a high judging table...No way to tell

just sayin

So it was kismet...3 great briskets on one table :-)

mjl
10-09-2013, 07:49 AM
I will bite. Where are you finding this table info?

ML

BasicPatrick
10-09-2013, 07:57 AM
BUT looking at overall scores in all categories:Weekend Warrior was number 8. They finished in the middle of the pack in everything else...They could have had really good Brisket, or it could be a high judging table...No way to tell just sayin

FYI...Weekend Warrior won Brisket at the Jack and im pretty sure has won Brisket in more contests than they have not won Brisket. No suprise that Brisket scores high in any comp.

Balls Casten
10-09-2013, 09:09 AM
Results
http://www.americanroyal.com/page.aspx?name=eventResults

jaestar
10-09-2013, 09:33 AM
table 16 was the kiss of death


Table 17 was bad too. Look at the pork results in the Open. Six of the scores on the last page came from them :shock:

Balls Casten
10-09-2013, 10:06 AM
Table 17 was bad too. Look at the pork results in the Open. Six of the scores on the last page came from them :shock:

But they also handed out a 169 and a 170 in chicken, a 178 in ribs, and you a 169 in brisket. So they didnt grade everything down. Their fault maybe was to give a 5 a 5 and not a kind 7.

jaestar
10-09-2013, 10:38 AM
But they also handed out a 169 and a 170 in chicken, a 178 in ribs, and you a 169 in brisket. So they didnt grade everything down. Their fault maybe was to give a 5 a 5 and not a kind 7.


Outside of those four scores, almost all of their scores can be found on the last two or three pages of each category. That being said, I do not recognize quite a few of the team names that hit their table. Just found it really odd that all of their pork entries were on the last page.

TooSaucedToPork
10-09-2013, 10:58 AM
FYI...Weekend Warrior won Brisket at the Jack and im pretty sure has won Brisket in more contests than they have not won Brisket. No suprise that Brisket scores high in any comp.

So it was kismet...3 great briskets on one table :-)

Sauced!
10-09-2013, 11:47 AM
Invitational or Open?

Invitational.... I think highest place for pork was 86 withe the rest of the table worse than 100 including us with a smooth 165....cost us a great overall finish.

Jorge
10-09-2013, 12:10 PM
So it was kismet...3 great briskets on one table :-)

It happens. Maybe it's the food, maybe it's the table, maybe it's a combo.

I turned in chicken and CHOSE to turn it in on a tray with a GREAT cook that had trouble with chicken. He WON and the entry I ran finished 13th. It was the Royal Invitational. Was it a strong table, or was the chicken that good?

Cooks have become so good over the last several years, and I think entries have become very similar so it's hard to separate them even being as objective as possible.

You can have CBJs, you can take the judges off the street, and more often than not the best cook is going to win. There is too much evidence over time to argue.

A table may be off, and that IS unfortunate. Judging is subjective, and as much as we tweak it or the process there will be some randomeness.

Candy Sue
10-09-2013, 01:26 PM
Table 17 was bad too. Look at the pork results in the Open. Six of the scores on the last page came from them :shock:

How did you get the detail sheets from the open? Love to see them myself...

Balls Casten
10-09-2013, 01:34 PM
How did you get the detail sheets from the open? Love to see them myself...

http://www.americanroyal.com/page.aspx?name=eventResults

I've got a sheet that will break down the totals to judges scores if you need it.

Candy Sue
10-09-2013, 01:52 PM
http://www.americanroyal.com/page.aspx?name=eventResults

I've got a sheet that will break down the totals to judges scores if you need it.

Thanks, but at this point, I'll wait for the AR to mail me my detail. Did get on table 66 twice and no team got ranked over 400 in those two categories. I'll not complain because my chicken was bland and my brisket was livery. Got what I deserved.

Even with my worst ever results, I'll go back next year. I LOVE my spot!!! I had a great time. Visited with folks who I don't see very often, came home with orders. I am glad I left right after sausage turn in -- bet I was back in Arkansas before the awards were over!

TooSaucedToPork
10-09-2013, 02:23 PM
It happens. Maybe it's the food, maybe it's the table, maybe it's a combo.

I turned in chicken and CHOSE to turn it in on a tray with a GREAT cook that had trouble with chicken. He WON and the entry I ran finished 13th. It was the Royal Invitational. Was it a strong table, or was the chicken that good?

Cooks have become so good over the last several years, and I think entries have become very similar so it's hard to separate them even being as objective as possible.

You can have CBJs, you can take the judges off the street, and more often than not the best cook is going to win. There is too much evidence over time to argue.

A table may be off, and that IS unfortunate. Judging is subjective, and as much as we tweak it or the process there will be some randomeness.

I'm saying it was destiny that 3 great briskets ended up on one table...Not that it was a judging issue...I WISH I was judging that table, then I could figure out what to do to mine to mimic...hahaha

carlyle
10-09-2013, 04:07 PM
The same element of chance that landed the same cook on the same table that is being lamented, no not strong enough- wailed about on another thread is at work here.

Some good entries clustered - oops - bad word choice- grouped on the same table in multiple categories.

In talking with friends scattered throughout the room, some said they had a bunch of good entries to judge. Others, like my table had very little that was very good. Luck of the draw.

And that is without the variability of judges. And yes that is a factor, but it is not everything.

Outnumbered
10-09-2013, 04:55 PM
I got put on table 13 for both chicken and ribs. TABLE 13! :grin:

I actually feel better about this after reviewing the results. I really like our chicken and we tanked it there. But then I see that we were 3rd at our table behing Pork Pullin' Plowboys and Smokin' Hills. No shame finishing behind those two teams.

Eggspert
10-09-2013, 06:25 PM
I think the AR has to be one of the most difficult contest to compete at. I judged both the open and the invitational and I heard so many judges talk about preferences. "I don't like so much sauce on my ribs or chicken." "I don't like it when the brisket has sauce!" Shame on them! There should be no "I" when you are a judge, you should leave all of your opinions and go in with an open mind. Does it look good? Does it taste good? Is it tender? Objective not subjective!

That being said, it is harder then it sounds. At the AR you get judges from around the world that you are trying to satisfy. I sat by a judge from Australia, I'm from Minnesota? Do we eat even close to the same kind of food in a week? I doubt it! It's very challenging to please everyone. Especially if judges forget the cardinal rule, it's not about what you prefer/like. Does the food taste good, even if it's not what you would make at home or order in a restaurant. Congratulations to teams that did well, to those that did not . . . better luck next year! Nobody said competition BBQ was a fair sport!

Eggspert

djqualls
10-10-2013, 12:01 AM
It's a lottery that requires six pieces of meat to get a chance. Is the royal worth cooking if you're doing it to be a competitor? No! Is it a great venue to visit everyone you have cooked with across the nation all year? Yes!

My second royal and am already qualified for the invitational next year however, I'm in the mood of "been there, done that" and not sure if it's worth the money.

But then again, I've got a year to change my mind!!!:razz:

ModelMaker
10-10-2013, 08:24 AM
table 16 was the kiss of death


Table 16 was NOT the kiss of death, table 16 was unfortunate enough to receive some of the worst BBQ that was offered that day!
2 of the chicken entries were edible, 2 were so salty it hurt, one was unidentifiable.
3 of the 6 ribs had crunchy membrane, one was nothing but bone with a little meat on top.
Pork was the best group, two of them were pure mush.
Brisket, oh my brisket! Two of the samples you could not pull apart, one box was dropped and got a 9 for appearence followed by a 4 and a 5.
I can just see that team beeming about how they will present that way from now on! Two of the others were so full of foul tasting fat that for the 3rd time ever it was spit into a napkin.
Table 16 was a group of well informed judges that gave fair scores for what was judged.
Don't assume from looking at numbers.
Ed

carlyle
10-10-2013, 09:42 AM
Model Maker- your table actually sounds like you got worse product than ours did.

I like your reasoned defense of your scores. Well put !!

Enjoyed meeting you and talking with you.

Outnumbered
10-10-2013, 09:46 AM
Table 16 was NOT the kiss of death, table 16 was unfortunate enough to receive some of the worst BBQ that was offered that day!
2 of the chicken entries were edible, 2 were so salty it hurt, one was unidentifiable.
3 of the 6 ribs had crunchy membrane, one was nothing but bone with a little meat on top.
Pork was the best group, two of them were pure mush.
Brisket, oh my brisket! Two of the samples you could not pull apart, one box was dropped and got a 9 for appearence followed by a 4 and a 5.
I can just see that team beeming about how they will present that way from now on! Two of the others were so full of foul tasting fat that for the 3rd time ever it was spit into a napkin.
Table 16 was a group of well informed judges that gave fair scores for what was judged.
Don't assume from looking at numbers.
Ed

Model Maker- your table actually sounds like you got worse product than ours did.

I like your reasoned defense of your scores. Well put !!

Enjoyed meeting you and talking with you.

I do too. That's why I'd like to see comment cards. As the cook I wouldn't necessarily like the comments, but I'd dang sure like to know what it was that got me scored down if that was the case. I'd also like to know why I was scored higher, if that was the case.

WineMaster
10-10-2013, 10:52 AM
Don't know what to think about the new scores sheets. Im sure during cabin fever time we'll hear a lot of opinions. Id still say that this years Royal both Invite and Open were a fine examples that cream does rise to the top and those that turn in a great product, get rewarded for it.

Candy Sue
10-10-2013, 11:00 AM
I think the AR has to be one of the most difficult contest to compete at. I judged both the open and the invitational and I heard so many judges talk about preferences. "I don't like so much sauce on my ribs or chicken." "I don't like it when the brisket has sauce!" Shame on them! There should be no "I" when you are a judge, you should leave all of your opinions and go in with an open mind. Does it look good? Does it taste good? Is it tender? Objective not subjective!

That being said, it is harder then it sounds. At the AR you get judges from around the world that you are trying to satisfy. I sat by a judge from Australia, I'm from Minnesota? Do we eat even close to the same kind of food in a week? I doubt it! It's very challenging to please everyone. Especially if judges forget the cardinal rule, it's not about what you prefer/like. Does the food taste good, even if it's not what you would make at home or order in a restaurant. Congratulations to teams that did well, to those that did not . . . better luck next year! Nobody said competition BBQ was a fair sport!

Eggspert

I once asked a cook from the Northeast who came to Mobile, AL to cook if he was going to change anything. His answer was, "No, good food is good food everywhere." Went on to take 6th overall that Saturday.

Boogan1
10-10-2013, 12:26 PM
I am a brand new CBJ and the Royal was my first contest. I judged sides and desserts on saturday and I was very nervous. I was kind of unsure what to look for etc. Looking at the stat sheets that show the tables and seats and the judge scores I can see my scores reflected that. As the day went on and more categories were judged I saw that my scores got closer to what everyone else on the table was scoring. On sunday I was much more relaxed, more confident in what I was doing and thought I did a much better job of scoring. However, I was on a table with a guy who was a retired cook and he gave almost everything a 9 and another guy who acted like he really didn't want to be there and I don't think gave anything over an 8 all day and gave lots of 5's and 6's. From a new judge standpoint I really liked seeing those scores and how I related to everyone else on the table who had the same food I did. It was stated in our judging class that the judges scores are going to be tracked and ones that always score high or low might be asked to do some "re-training".

bbq.tom
10-10-2013, 01:08 PM
I am a brand new CBJ and the Royal was my first contest. I judged sides and desserts on saturday and I was very nervous. I was kind of unsure what to look for etc. Looking at the stat sheets that show the tables and seats and the judge scores I can see my scores reflected that. As the day went on and more categories were judged I saw that my scores got closer to what everyone else on the table was scoring. On sunday I was much more relaxed, more confident in what I was doing and thought I did a much better job of scoring. However, I was on a table with a guy who was a retired cook and he gave almost everything a 9 and another guy who acted like he really didn't want to be there and I don't think gave anything over an 8 all day and gave lots of 5's and 6's. From a new judge standpoint I really liked seeing those scores and how I related to everyone else on the table who had the same food I did. It was stated in our judging class that the judges scores are going to be tracked and ones that always score high or low might be asked to do some "re-training".

So how exactly did you see how your scores compared to others?
Judges are not allowed to see the KCBScore sheets.

Boogan1
10-10-2013, 02:53 PM
Well I was looking at the results posted on the AR website that showed table# and seat #. Please let me know if I wasn't supposed to look at those. I have not divulged which table or seat I was at.

TooSaucedToPork
10-10-2013, 03:04 PM
So how exactly did you see how your scores compared to others?
Judges are not allowed to see the KCBScore sheets.

Does it say that in the KCBS Rules?

ModelMaker
10-10-2013, 03:43 PM
Nope, not against any rule...yet!
However it does kinda go against the grain for having the double blind.
Ed

bbq.tom
10-10-2013, 06:50 PM
Does it say that in the KCBS Rules?

Not in the rules YET, but that's what I've been told from three dfferent sets of REPs.

Judges might find out who's entry they judged, and that would end the double blind aspect of KCBS contests. That is what the REPs said.

Outnumbered
10-10-2013, 06:55 PM
I fail to see what is wrong with it, if there is a true double blind. The box numbers get changed, so who the hell cares. If there is a double blind.

The question I have, however, is why one of the reps told one of my teammates that they were not changing numbers on the boxes. I did not hear the conversation since it was in the women's locker room, but that is what she was told. Very clearly.

And really, if the judge looks at the score sheets after the fact to see where the entries from their tables ended up placing, does it really matter? I say no.

TooSaucedToPork
10-10-2013, 07:41 PM
Not in the rules YET, but that's what I've been told from three dfferent sets of REPs.

Great...
Another rule that creates a wall between teams and judges.

Eggspert
10-10-2013, 07:47 PM
I don't think judges should know what team's food they tasted. It would not take much for a judge to pinpoint which team's food is whose. That is dangerous. I did not like knowing that there was no double blind at the AR and the site numbers were the box number. As an impartial judge, I don't want to know whose food I am tasting. I want to taste it on it's own merit.

Eggspert

bbq.tom
10-10-2013, 08:22 PM
As a judge, I'd like to see how my scores compare to the other judges at my table, but not what team was on my table.

musicmanryann
10-10-2013, 08:29 PM
Pretty simple fix--give each table an alternate number just like the teams. You could even rearrange the judge numbers at the tables as well, just to be sure. Reps are the only ones who have the key. Problem solved.