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TooSaucedToPork
10-02-2013, 02:13 PM
So...hypothetical.

If we were to create a program called "Gamechangers" where at a contest, teams could cook 1 entry and submit it for blind judging, so that it could be picked apart by judges, and comments on improvement could be given. Would this be legal? It could be after turnins, and before awards.

It would help judges openly talk about their tastes, and teams get the comments on entries they want.

If legal, could this solve a lot of problems?

Lake Dogs
10-02-2013, 02:23 PM
Interesting. A "rules be damned, no holds barred" type of feedback only critique of what they thought.

I haven't competed in a couple of years, but when I did I actually hosted this at my house, and I cooked 2 or 3 different recipes and asked honestly, no B.S, lets talk about them. When I did this, my contest Q went from middle of the pack to top 3 or 4 normally...

For that matter, might I suggest that you do this at a contest. Put up a sign (all judges welcome at 2:00pm) and let 'em tell you. Hopefully they will. If they wont, they weren't worth it anyway. Even then, give them a couple different recipes as I did. Have them contrast them against one another...

cpw
10-02-2013, 02:53 PM
The SCBA has a variation on this for novice judges. They ask a few teams to submit 2 boxes, 1 for the real judges and 1 for the novices (the 2nd box is turned in after the first one, so there's no time pressure on the teams). The novice judges then critique and score the box just as if it was a real turn in. In the SCBA's case it's to help train the judges, but I could see it just as easily working for the teams as well.

I don't see an issue of legality (but I really have no idea), I think it you'd have a harder time getting the teams to turn in extra meat and getting the judges to stick around longer.

TooSaucedToPork
10-02-2013, 03:07 PM
I don't see an issue of legality (but I really have no idea), I think it you'd have a harder time getting the teams to turn in extra meat and getting the judges to stick around longer.

The teams get their box critiqued WITH comments on how to improve and what is wrong with their entry. Any team with a consistent low to mid performing box will line up for the chance to improve it...

Getting judges might be a harder sell...you are right on the money.

McEvoy AZ
10-02-2013, 03:42 PM
I think this would be great to do on the off season if a few judges and a few teams get together and try new recipes, where the judges comment almost like a BBQ Pitmasters format. I know I am lucky to have BBQ Island in Tempe AZ near by, and they did something like this over a year ago for teams interested in competing. It was a mock comp and boy did it get some of us really hooked on competing. Also with the feedback and help from area teams it helped us with a running start. Some of the new teams born out of this doing quite well.

cpw
10-02-2013, 03:51 PM
The teams get their box critiqued WITH comments on how to improve and what is wrong with their entry. Any team with a consistent low to mid performing box will line up for the chance to improve it...

Getting judges might be a harder sell...you are right on the money.

As a new team, I know I'd be all over it. It would be great to know what we're doing right and wrong.

daninnewjersey
10-02-2013, 04:08 PM
The teams get their box critiqued WITH comments on how to improve and what is wrong with their entry. Any team with a consistent low to mid performing box will line up for the chance to improve it...

They'd be in line right behind me....:mrgreen::mrgreen:
Great idea....

landarc
10-02-2013, 04:24 PM
The CBBQA (California BBQ Association) does a training comp from time to time, where real CBJ's judge, but, the format is single blind to the judges. The Competitors get to sit there and listen, as the judges do their thing, then discuss what they tasted after they mark their scores. You end up sitting there, listening to them judge your box, in real time.

It is quite instructional for all involved.

Cast Iron Chef
10-02-2013, 04:36 PM
We did that here in Nevada with the Nevada BBQ Association. Teams could cook any or all 4 meats. We invited judges to talk with teams and then judge. We got to watch them judge and they filled comment cards on every entry. Was a great sucess. It was interesting watching the judges pull the meat, take different bites and get their reactions. We plan to make it at least a yearly event.

CivilWarBBQ
10-02-2013, 05:29 PM
As long as it isn't a sanctioned category, you can do whatever you want.

As others have said, this sort of feedback session has been organized on a local level many times across the county. Last time we did one we brought four teams and a handful of CBJs together and after the boxes were done EVERYONE got together to rate and comment on each entry.

bbq.tom
10-02-2013, 06:17 PM
On the off season this has been done numerous places across the country, but to do it at a KCBS comp, albeit AFTER judging is over would have to be run through the KCBS AND the Organizer.

I would be GLAD to participate as a judge, as I usually stick around for award ceremony anyway.

pigmaker23
10-02-2013, 06:43 PM
It was done at Sayville in either year one or two. After KCBS there was one additional turn in, it was anything allowed and the judges also judged that category. We turned in chicken thigh meat glued to chicken breast meat and then rolled to look like a boneless thigh. Linda and Jerry Mulane were the reps, maybe they will chime in with more details.

motoeric
10-02-2013, 10:39 PM
To follow up on what Eric was saying, this has been done both at the Battle of the BBQ Brethren and at WilliePallooza here on Long Island. I'm going to lobby for it to be done at more BBQ Brethren contests.

Teams turn in a fifth category of whatever they would like, as long as it is legal, and they are evaluated by trained cbj's. They can turn-in chicken salad, kettle fried chicken, all burnt ends, a mayo based white sauce, whatever.

It's gone over well here and I don't see why it wouldn't be successful elsewhere.

Eric

jeffturnerjr
10-02-2013, 11:39 PM
I would love this.

TooSaucedToPork
10-03-2013, 06:36 AM
I understand things have been done OUTSIDE of a contest enviornment, I too have had CBJ friends rate my food at home. I understand there have been 5th catagories at contests where teams turn in whatever they want...

This is not what I am proposing.

It would be totally optional to enter, A team would turn in 1 box, made up exactly as they would for a real turn in, with one of the 4 main categories for critiquing by the judges. The Judges would score it according to the 1-9 system and make comments on each of Appearance, Taste, and Tenderness. This would have specific comment cards attached to it so that comments and reasons for scores are made next to their scores.

This would all be done at a contest, with CBJ's that judged that day. This would allow teams to see what the judges truly see when they open their turn in box.

That is the question...is all of the above legal.

Lake Dogs
10-03-2013, 06:41 AM
I like it.

ITBFQ
10-03-2013, 08:27 AM
I would be GLAD to participate as a judge, as I usually stick around for award ceremony anyway.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

polishdon
10-03-2013, 02:35 PM
I would love to see something like this in our area Neil!!!!

cpw
10-03-2013, 03:11 PM
Why do you think it wouldn't be legal? If it's not for any money or points, I don't see what the issue would be.

TooSaucedToPork
10-03-2013, 03:22 PM
before I put a few hours into developing a scorecard, organizing it, testing it, and begging a local contest to try it out...I want to make sure it is totally legal.

I want it torn apart to find flaws so that it goes off without a hitch. Thats why I asked if any part of it was not legal.

CivilWarBBQ
10-03-2013, 05:18 PM
Running it through KCBScore might be - that would be a gray area you'd have to get the board to rule on. But having CBJs fill out a card with their raw scores and comments just to be collected and handed back to the cook... I don't see where that would have anything to do with KCBS since it is an ancillary not being processed by the KCBS Reps.

I guess the question for you is does it matter if the outcome is actually ranked or not. If the purpose is purely for feedback, then the individual entry's raw scores are all that matter, not how it placed compared to the other entries. Given that scenario, it would be the same as other ancillaries I've seen where the KCBS Reps don't handle the scores and the organizer makes up whatever system they see fit.

TooSaucedToPork
10-03-2013, 07:48 PM
Running it through KCBScore might be - that would be a gray area you'd have to get the board to rule on. But having CBJs fill out a card with their raw scores and comments just to be collected and handed back to the cook... I don't see where that would have anything to do with KCBS since it is an ancillary not being processed by the KCBS Reps.

I guess the question for you is does it matter if the outcome is actually ranked or not. If the purpose is purely for feedback, then the individual entry's raw scores are all that matter, not how it placed compared to the other entries. Given that scenario, it would be the same as other ancillaries I've seen where the KCBS Reps don't handle the scores and the organizer makes up whatever system they see fit.

Do ancillary contests need to be run by the board? It uses KCBS Rules, but just adds comment cards. Which are a part of KCBS anyway.

Yes, as you would want the new scoresheet to compare to future and past turn ins.

BasicPatrick
10-03-2013, 11:24 PM
Wow...Small world and of course there is an obvious need in our community for more interaction between judges and cook teams.

I have actually been doing some footwork with the hope of reviving a KCBS contest here on Cape Cod.

Completely separate from the KCBS contest I have been developing an event plan/format where instead of having a NEBS grilling contest on Saturday (we usually have KCBS on Sunday in these parts), we would have a completely separate event where teams would cook a category/maybe two and submit it for blind judging as is the norm. Immediately after judging, the cook, maybe even two team members would get say 15 minutes in the judging area for a Q&A with the judges.

Before he passed on, I had had mulltiple conversatiosn with KCBS Rep and former NEBS President Ken D about the nuances of how something like this might work out. Multiple conversations with both cook teams and judges has me completley convinced there are many on both sides that would welcome something along these lines.

Jorge
10-04-2013, 08:21 AM
Do ancillary contests need to be run by the board? It uses KCBS Rules, but just adds comment cards. Which are a part of KCBS anyway.

Yes, as you would want the new scoresheet to compare to future and past turn ins.

I'd suggest you contact KCBS as well. I can see a timing issue if Reps are involved. Between judging and awards they are working on results, and other issues.

The board doesn't 'run' ancillary categories, but there are fees associated with them.

CivilWarBBQ
10-04-2013, 05:03 PM
The question I would have is do all KCBS rules apply for an ancillary that is processed thru KCBScore by the Reps? If the answer is no, then there would be no issue with what he wants to do.

The precedent has already been set that an organizer can do whatever they wish when they handle the scoring and ranking outside of the Rep's responsibilities, so the only issue I see is whether there is a problem with purposefully violating the Prime Directive by breaking the blind for such an exercise while it is being supervised by KCBS Reps and judged, scored and ranked using the KCBS system.

Jorge
10-04-2013, 07:01 PM
The question I would have is do all KCBS rules apply for an ancillary that is processed thru KCBScore by the Reps? If the answer is no, then there would be no issue with what he wants to do.

There is precedent for open garnish in ancillary categories. At least I believe those categories, at the events I'm thinking of, were handled by KCBS Reps. But that's not really relevant here.

The precedent has already been set that an organizer can do whatever they wish when they handle the scoring and ranking outside of the Rep's responsibilities, so the only issue I see is whether there is a problem with purposefully violating the Prime Directive by breaking the blind for such an exercise while it is being supervised by KCBS Reps and judged, scored and ranked using the KCBS system.

I'm not smart enough to forecast an outcome.:mrgreen: I'd probably submit a proposal to the Rep and CBJ committees and see what might be possible.

Shiz-Nit
10-04-2013, 08:45 PM
I would like this indeed!!!!!!