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New Pal Frank
10-01-2013, 07:33 AM
Why do some judges come by after awards wanting to look at the teams KCBScore sheets?

I feel like this defeats part of the blind judging is as much as the judge knows what table and seat he was in and knows the people sitting with them.

As a team member, I did this once and the feedback I got from the judge made me cringe. I will never do it again.

Your thoughts PLEASE.

BaggerBill
10-01-2013, 07:43 AM
What kind of feedback did you get?

Ron_L
10-01-2013, 07:46 AM
So far this hasn't happened to us. One judged asked which table had the first place ribs, but that's the only question we have received.

New Pal Frank
10-01-2013, 07:53 AM
They were mentioning names and seat #'s, and coments that were made after the score sheets were passed to the TC.

mobow
10-01-2013, 07:57 AM
I think this is going to be a issue that KCBS is going to have to address quickly. I would like for judges to have a way to see how they scored compared to the rest of their table but all the additional information is not needed by the judges and I think has potential to cause some problems. keith

cds9333
10-01-2013, 08:45 AM
I think this is going to be a issue that KCBS is going to have to address quickly. I would like for judges to have a way to see how they scored compared to the rest of their table but all the additional information is not needed by the judges and I think has potential to cause some problems. keith


As a reletively new judge (10 contests in the last year), this would be the only interest I have in seeing the sheet, and no, I have not seen nor asked for a copy. I would like to see where I sit compared to the others at my table. I could care less to see the team, the team number, or the other tables. My goal as a judge is to be the fairest for all teams.

ITBFQ
10-01-2013, 09:59 AM
I'm a relatively new judge, too, and I would never even consider asking to see a team's score sheet! Sure, I am curious about how the other judges at my table scored some entries, but I can usually get a feel for that when chatting between meats. After judging, I usually hang out at the comp, have a few beers and stick around for the awards... I know a few teams that compete, and I wouldn't even consider asking to see their score sheets. Just doesn't seem right.

Candy Sue
10-01-2013, 10:33 AM
I think this is going to be a issue that KCBS is going to have to address quickly. I would like for judges to have a way to see how they scored compared to the rest of their table but all the additional information is not needed by the judges and I think has potential to cause some problems. keith

Already in the works. There's some tweeking going on right now on KCBScore. As a cook, I love the additional information. But I'd never share my score sheets with any judge after the event, don't care to lose friends!

Please note that none of the info above is secret! This happened as part of the business of the last board meeting. And the opinion stuff is mine alone.

bignburlyman
10-01-2013, 10:57 AM
At the last contest I judged the reps emphasized NOT to tell any teams what table and seat number the judges were at. I myself would love to get the information for my table to see how the scores compared. I would also like to see the overall results sheets, I wish there was a way those could be available online. Just for my reading pleasure of course, lol.

New Pal Frank
10-01-2013, 11:09 AM
When I first started judging, I asked the TC from time to time how my scores compared to the other judges at the table. Usually I was right there with the other judges at the table. I don't see a problem with this, as long as actul scores are not given out.
I don't feel the judges need to see the other judges scores and I don't think the teams need any help identfing any of the judges.
As a cook, I like the additional info that the new sheets give me. What teams were at my table, how I finished at my table and so on.

Podge
10-01-2013, 01:03 PM
Since it's all blind judging, judges seeing the sheets after the fact I do not see a problem with. If a judge has the guts to ask to see a score sheet, then to put himself/herself in a bad position with the team standing before them, and have to explain why they gave them a bad score, so be it.

QN
10-01-2013, 01:37 PM
Since it's all blind judging, judges seeing the sheets after the fact I do not see a problem with. If a judge has the guts to ask to see a score sheet, then to put himself/herself in a bad position with the team standing before them, and have to explain why they gave them a bad score, so be it.

It is quite likely that unless it was very good or very bad the judge would not remember what score they gave every single entry they judged in every category.

TooSaucedToPork
10-01-2013, 01:53 PM
Why is this a problem? By hiding score sheets and information you are just increasing the division between judges and cooks.

In MBN and MIM Judges come back and talk to you about what they saw and how to improve...THIS IS ENCOURAGED. Not prohibited. Get with the program KCBS

Jorge
10-01-2013, 02:28 PM
Why is this a problem? By hiding score sheets and information you are just increasing the division between judges and cooks.

In MBN and MIM Judges come back and talk to you about what they saw and how to improve...THIS IS ENCOURAGED. Not prohibited. Get with the program KCBS

Uhm, no. Thanks.

TooSaucedToPork
10-01-2013, 02:38 PM
Uhm, no. Thanks.

Why?
What is so bad about breaking down the walls? What are people scared of....honesty?

Uomograsso
10-01-2013, 02:50 PM
It is quite likely that unless it was very good or very bad the judge would not remember what score they gave every single entry they judged in every category.


I may not remember every score for every box, but I do remember those that stood out as great and those that were not so great. I also will remember a box if it has an different layout than what is normally seen. At a contest earlier this year I stopped to talk to a team and they showed me a picture of their brisket box and we did have it at my table. I would have no problem giving my opinion of their entry and why I scored it as I did. The last contest I did I recognized the sausage box from a team that I cooked with to get my masters. I gave it high marks as did the rest of the table and it wound up taking 2nd. I also found out after talking to that team my table had judged their pork box as well. This could be an issue if a judge knows what a teams box looks like. I try my best to be impartial and fair to all entries, but some judges may be influenced one way or the other.

Jorge
10-01-2013, 04:10 PM
Why?
What is so bad about breaking down the walls? What are people scared of....honesty?

Two different systems. MIM/MBN has a system that works for what they do. KCBS has a system that is based on blind judging. What you propose threatens the integrity of that system.

Pick one or the other. That doesn't mean that judges can't come out and talk to cooks. It doesn't mean that they can't have dinner on Friday night. It should mean that they shouldn't be studying the score sheet and comparing notes on Sat. afternoon.

Goody bags next?

TooSaucedToPork
10-01-2013, 04:31 PM
Two different systems. MIM/MBN has a system that works for what they do. KCBS has a system that is based on blind judging. What you propose threatens the integrity of that system.

Pick one or the other. That doesn't mean that judges can't come out and talk to cooks. It doesn't mean that they can't have dinner on Friday night. It should mean that they shouldn't be studying the score sheet and comparing notes on Sat. afternoon.

Goody bags next?

Mbn also uses blind judging...

ModelMaker
10-02-2013, 07:54 AM
At a recent contest one of the teams asked which table I sat at and I told them I don't kiss and tell.
While visiting before or after turn ins, when a team starts talking about their box attributes or showing phone pics, I avoid the information. I as a judge don't want to know how you lay out your box or even see a picture of it.
That being said I've always contended that cooks could bring their box to the table and set there and watch and they would get the same score vs normal procedure.
Ed

Jorge
10-02-2013, 10:35 AM
Mbn also uses blind judging...

I understand that.

For KCBS I think it's great for judges to spend time with cooks. I've got no problem if a team wants to give a judge a sample after judging and ask for feedback. As long as that feedback is about that sample, and not judging I think that's a win/win for everyone.

I've got no problem with a judge talking about the overall quality of entries. I can live with a judge characterizing the dominant flavor profile as sweet with some heat, etc... In KCBS I'd prefer that they not come out and describe, in detail the layout/presentation of a killer new idea, etc.

I know that I'm drawing a very fine line and that it may be hypocritical.

TooSaucedToPork
10-02-2013, 12:15 PM
So...hypothetical.

If we were to create a program called "Gamechangers" where at a contest, teams could cook 1 entry and submit it for blind judging, so that it could be picked apart by judges, and comments on improvement could be given. Would this be legal? It could be after turnins, and before awards.

It would help judges openly talk about their tastes, and teams get the comments they want.

????

Podge
10-02-2013, 01:36 PM
I could say what I've posted another way: Cooks got nothing to lose and a lot to gain when a judge knows if they got your stuff or not and get feedback..

judges on the other hand, could either be listened to constructively, or... well.... get a hot-headed cook's opinion on the judge's opinion.

Uncle Buds BBQ
10-02-2013, 01:44 PM
So...hypothetical.

If we were to create a program called "Gamechangers" where at a contest, teams could cook 1 entry and submit it for blind judging, so that it could be picked apart by judges, and comments on improvement could be given. Would this be legal? It could be after turnins, and before awards.

It would help judges openly talk about their tastes, and teams get the comments they want.

????
Wow. That's the best farkin' idea I have heard in awhile!

CivilWarBBQ
10-02-2013, 05:25 PM
MBN and KCBS are fundamentally different in the way entries are judged. Suggesting that one organization is "wrong" and should adopt the methods of the other is just silly.

You might as well start an argument over which is "better", beef or chicken. Answer is neither - they are just different.

bbq.tom
10-02-2013, 06:03 PM
You might as well start an argument over which is "better", beef or chicken. Answer is neither - they are just different.

Everyone knows the answer is PORK!!!

TooSaucedToPork
10-02-2013, 06:18 PM
MBN and KCBS are fundamentally different in the way entries are judged. Suggesting that one organization is "wrong" and should adopt the methods of the other is just silly.

You might as well start an argument over which is "better", beef or chicken. Answer is neither - they are just different.

Never said either was wrong or right...just pointing out the fact that judge/team relationships in Mbn are way different than KCBS. Teams in KCBS want a way to find out straight from a judge's mouth what is wrong with their entry. In MBN a judge comes back and tells you to your face, we have nothing in KCBS to provide that....

That was the explanation behind the bandwagon post. Both KCBS and MBN have their faults and their perks...but one difference right now is MBN is focusing on helping the cooks improve their game. They have held BBQ Bootcamps with real judges, and top teams instructing. These Bootcamps cost $50 a person...They are also evaluating their judges...

If you settle, you're dead.
If it ain't broke...break it

Be proactive and anticipate what your BBQ constituents want and you stay in office...

Jorge
10-03-2013, 10:52 AM
Never said either was wrong or right...just pointing out the fact that judge/team relationships in Mbn are way different than KCBS. Teams in KCBS want a way to find out straight from a judge's mouth what is wrong with their entry. In MBN a judge comes back and tells you to your face, we have nothing in KCBS to provide that....

That was the explanation behind the bandwagon post. Both KCBS and MBN have their faults and their perks...but one difference right now is MBN is focusing on helping the cooks improve their game. They have held BBQ Bootcamps with real judges, and top teams instructing. These Bootcamps cost $50 a person...They are also evaluating their judges...

If you settle, you're dead.
If it ain't broke...break it

Be proactive and anticipate what your BBQ constituents want and you stay in office...

Or focusing on current and core services can work as well.

TooSaucedToPork
10-03-2013, 12:48 PM
Or focusing on current and core services can work as well.

Not to be rude but you are saying to Focus on same old same old and don't rock the boat?

There is absolutely nothing in current or core KCBS services that provides Cooks an intimate look into why their entries are not scoring well. Just a number you have to guess at.

I cook in both KCBS and MBN organizations...I like both organizations, but the MBN challenger series is being proactive and serving their membership and cook teams with new ideas and programs...they are listening to what their teams want and are adding programs that benefit their cook teams to theircurrent and core services

Yes, in KCBS we got a new score sheet...yes it shows how we did on a table, yes it shows average judge scores...but it still does ABSOLUTELY nothing to help a cook better themselves.

KCBS provides a test, but no way to learn from it...its the same as taking a test in school and not being told the correct answers when you fail. You can't learn from your mistakes without the knowledge of why you made them.

CivilWarBBQ
10-03-2013, 05:26 PM
If we are to be honest, MBN is in a position now where they have to try something different because the organization has been losing contests, teams and judges since MIM broke off.

On the flip side of the coin, KCBS is booming, so there is little motivation to meddle with something that is working well, at least at this point in time.

TooSaucedToPork
10-03-2013, 07:38 PM
If we are to be honest, MBN is in a position now where they have to try something different because the organization has been losing contests, teams and judges since MIM broke off.

On the flip side of the coin, KCBS is booming, so there is little motivation to meddle with something that is working well, at least at this point in time.

As any successful entrepreneur will tell you, just because business is booming doesn't mean you sit back and let it ride. The moment you are no longer motivated to change for the better, is the moment you start becoming obsolete. KCBS got where they are with a vision, they are now like the Disney of BBQ.

Disney has stayed on top by developing the next new thing. But did you know they had first crack at the Harry Potter franchise, but wouldn't give the author the rights to approve the park. Universal (who was not doing well) gave that power, and the Multi-billion in profit Wizarding World of Harry Potter was born. Disney handed over billions because it was "booming" and "didn't want to meddle with something that works so well." Disney kicks itself everyday for its mistake.

Don't ever get complacent of where you are...there is always better.

Jorge
10-03-2013, 08:12 PM
Not to be rude but you are saying to Focus on same old same old and don't rock the boat?

There is absolutely nothing in current or core KCBS services that provides Cooks an intimate look into why their entries are not scoring well. Just a number you have to guess at.

I cook in both KCBS and MBN organizations...I like both organizations, but the MBN challenger series is being proactive and serving their membership and cook teams with new ideas and programs...they are listening to what their teams want and are adding programs that benefit their cook teams to their

Yes, in KCBS we got a new score sheet...yes it shows how we did on a table, yes it shows average judge scores...but it still does ABSOLUTELY nothing to help a cook better themselves.

KCBS provides a test, but no way to learn from it...its the same as taking a test in school and not being told the correct answers when you fail. You can't learn from your mistakes without the knowledge of why you made them.

I'm saying that the priority should be on delivering the best service possible as it currently exists, before introducing new programs or practices used elsewhere. Down the road I wouldn't object if there was a clear benefit. Right now I wouldn't want to dedicate resources to emulating an organization that was nearly absorbed by KCBS in recent years.

CivilWarBBQ
10-04-2013, 05:19 PM
As any successful entrepreneur will tell you, just because business is booming doesn't mean you sit back and let it ride. The moment you are no longer motivated to change for the better, is the moment you start becoming obsolete. KCBS got where they are with a vision, they are now like the Disney of BBQ.

Disney has stayed on top by developing the next new thing. But did you know they had first crack at the Harry Potter franchise, but wouldn't give the author the rights to approve the park. Universal (who was not doing well) gave that power, and the Multi-billion in profit Wizarding World of Harry Potter was born. Disney handed over billions because it was "booming" and "didn't want to meddle with something that works so well." Disney kicks itself everyday for its mistake.

Don't ever get complacent of where you are...there is always better.

And then there is the Edsel, Microsoft BOB, the IBM Convertible, Betamax, New Coke, Santa Claus Conquers the Martians and my personal favorite, the DeLorean.

Sometimes the best thing you can do is leave it alone if it is working.

But what do I know? I'm just another entrepreneur down here working in the trenches with everyday people for the last 30 years. If I had billions laying around I'd probably give it away to folks who needed it, so a robber baron I'll never be.

gmholler
10-05-2013, 08:07 AM
This brings to mind something we (judges) were discussing at a recent contest. What are the pros and cons with this new score sheet showing just what judge gave what score? One judge indicated he feared retribution from the cook if someone made the connection between where he sat and that place giving a sample a low score and I can't say I heard anything but "Yeah, that's what's gonna happen!" from the rest of those present...

Lynn H.

Big Mike
10-05-2013, 09:11 AM
I must say, I like the new score sheet. I like that I can see how I did against others at the table and how the judges scored on average. And as far as I am concerned, if I am allowed to see it, I don't see why judges can't be provided the same information.

We as cooks use these scores to guage ourselves against each other and where we need to improve. If a judge sees his/her score is consistently higher or lower than other judges then they can look into why they seem to be off compared to everyone else.

bearnakedbbq
10-05-2013, 09:35 AM
Here is an open invitation to any judges that are judging the JACK. You are welcome to taste and hopefully critique my food AFTER the event.

Bear Naked BBQ from Alaska.

Troy

bearnakedbbq
10-05-2013, 09:37 AM
Would like to add. Any team wishing to taste my BBQ are welcome also. All I ask is for honest feedback and if you want to swap sample for sample that would be great also. I would love to try someone else's BBQ.

Troy