PDA

View Full Version : Pork question, illegal or not???


Wager
09-23-2013, 01:07 PM
Hey guys, I was at a comp this past weekend and saw a guy pull his pork butt and then stick it in a metal basket and put it back on the smoker for a few minutes with some heavy smoke for additional smoke flavor. I assume this is legal but with the talk about seperating meat and cooking it I wasn't sure. This team actually finished either 1st or 2nd. so definitely something I would like to try if it is ok.

Ron_L
09-23-2013, 01:11 PM
Did he pull it apart or just pull it out of the smoker? We use the same word for both so I want to be sure.

If he pulled it apart and then put it back in I believe that is illegal right now.

Here is the 2013 rule...

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall
be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be
separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the
meat once separated be returned to a cooker

I added the bold. It doesn't say that it can't be cook further, it say it can't be returned to the smoker under any circumstances.

boogiesnap
09-23-2013, 01:14 PM
KCBS, illegal, if the meat was pulled apart.

Ron_L
09-23-2013, 01:16 PM
KCBS, illegal, if the meat was pulled apart.

Uh yeah... I assumed KCBS. Shame on me. :tsk:

BMerrill
09-23-2013, 01:32 PM
What contest?

ShencoSmoke
09-23-2013, 01:48 PM
Here we go again.

DownHomeQue
09-23-2013, 01:58 PM
:whistle:

TooSaucedToPork
09-23-2013, 02:24 PM
Here we go again.

At least it is not gossip...he saw it happen.

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
09-23-2013, 02:33 PM
Why would he need to put it into a metal basket to put it back into the smoke unless he pulled it apart first?

cpw
09-23-2013, 02:55 PM
He never specified if it was KCBS either. It could have been SCBA (Where you can pull and reheat). There was an SCBA event this weekend up near Charlotte.

Wager
09-23-2013, 02:55 PM
well, I'm not going to say which contest and I'm not going to point fingers because I really don't want to cause any issues. I thought it seemed like a really good idea when they did it and I was really considering doing it myself when I saw it since my pork scores are pretty terrible. If it is illegal then I definitely won't do it. Thanks for the info guys.

Sorry some clarifications after re-reading the above posts:
yes, they pulled and chopped the pork and then put it back on the smoker
yes, this was a KCBS contest.

Uncle Buds BBQ
09-23-2013, 03:37 PM
Could those butts may have been for the Peoples Choice entry which usually is not part of the KCBS sanction?

fnbish
09-23-2013, 03:44 PM
well, I'm not going to say which contest and I'm not going to point fingers because I really don't want to cause any issues. I thought it seemed like a really good idea when they did it and I was really considering doing it myself when I saw it since my pork scores are pretty terrible. If it is illegal then I definitely won't do it. Thanks for the info guys.

Sorry some clarifications after re-reading the above posts:
yes, they pulled and chopped the pork and then put it back on the smoker
yes, this was a KCBS contest.

Ah come on now. People are gonna keep prying when you provide additional ambiguous information like this.

deepsouth
09-23-2013, 03:51 PM
figure out the contest and it's one of two teams, per the OP.

John Bowen
09-23-2013, 04:08 PM
I have seen teams - after wrapping - put their butts back on the smoker to firm up the bark some but never to add more smoke to the meat. I wonder what it could actually do since after 145 degrees (roughly) it is not taking on any more smoke.

You think they might have been warming it up some?

Stoke&Smoke
09-23-2013, 04:16 PM
I have seen teams - after wrapping - put their butts back on the smoker to firm up the bark some but never to add more smoke to the meat. I wonder what it could actually do since after 145 degrees (roughly) it is not taking on any more smoke.

You think they might have been warming it up some?

145 is just the approximate temp that a smoke ring stops forming, meat will continue to "take on smoke" often to a bad end, but at the point the chemical reaction that creates a smoke ring is done. But since judges aren't supposed to take a smoke ring into acct. shouldn't matter! You could definitely have too much smoke though!

Wager
09-23-2013, 04:54 PM
Could those butts may have been for the Peoples Choice entry which usually is not part of the KCBS sanction?

Very well could have been. I can't remember the time that they were doing it so I will definitely give them the benefit of the doubt and say that was their peoples choice entry.

Guys, I really didn't want to start this in an effort to try and "out" a team. I just thought it looked like a really good idea and was wondering if it was ok for me to try it.

Rick Hamilton
09-23-2013, 04:55 PM
well, I'm not going to say which contest and I'm not going to point fingers because I really don't want to cause any issues. I thought it seemed like a really good idea when they did it and I was really considering doing it myself when I saw it since my pork scores are pretty terrible. If it is illegal then I definitely won't do it. Thanks for the info guys.

Sorry some clarifications after re-reading the above posts:
yes, they pulled and chopped the pork and then put it back on the smoker
yes, this was a KCBS contest.

Turning in chopped pork got either first or second?

If this really happened, and you aren't just trying to stir something up, you are just as much a piece of work for posting it here and not doing the right thing yourself by reporting it properly.

Wager
09-23-2013, 05:02 PM
Turning in chopped pork got either first or second?

If this really happened, and you aren't just trying to stir something up, you are just as much a piece of work for posting it here and not doing the right thing yourself by reporting it properly.

Again, sorry guys. I wasn't clear on the rules and at the time thought it was a really good idea. I was really asking because I wanted to try it at the next comp. it wasn't until I thought about it the last couple of days that I thought I should check to see if it was allowed or not. I'm fairly new to this game and admittedly haven't really worked to understand the rules as I should have. if that makes me a piece of work then so be it.

didisea
09-23-2013, 05:26 PM
When you get to the next comp, find the head judge, explain in detail the process you want to execute on the pork, and they can tell you if it is OK or not. So then, if another team sees you doing it and tells the judges, you have already cleared your process with the judges.

boogiesnap
09-23-2013, 05:33 PM
When you get to the next comp, find the head judge, explain in detail the process you want to execute on the pork, and they can tell you if it is OK or not. So then, if another team sees you doing it and tells the judges, you have already cleared your process with the judges.



Can't agree with this.

If you practice something over and over and it's illegal, what then do you do comp day?

Know the rules and follow them if you're gonna play the game.

TooSaucedToPork
09-23-2013, 06:00 PM
Dont get all high and mighty y'all...his question truly sounds genuine. If you jump on every single person that sees something at a contest and wants to better themselves and their product, that's not what BBQ Culture is about. He's not outting a team, he wanted to improve his game.

Y'all sound like a bunch of grumpy old fogies.

SOB
09-23-2013, 06:09 PM
^^+1

TooSaucedToPork
09-23-2013, 06:23 PM
Wager, ignore the haters. The only thing you need to know is it illegal to seperate any part of the Pork and return it to the cooker.

Try cooking a butt for your money muscle and one for your pulled/chopped pork if you don't already. You can cook each to a different temp, ensuring your best on both.

If you are getting killed in Pork, what do you feel you are doing wrong? What do your scores look like? What do you put in your box? How do you put it in the box?

Smokin'Butts
09-23-2013, 06:31 PM
He never specified if it was KCBS either. It could have been SCBA (Where you can pull and reheat). There was an SCBA event this weekend up near Charlotte.

Do you mean an SBN event? There was no SCBA event near Charlotte....Mauldin (we were there) and Columbia. There was an SBN cook in Canton, NC I believe.

buttburnersbbq
09-23-2013, 06:45 PM
He never specified if it was KCBS either. It could have been SCBA (Where you can pull and reheat). There was an SCBA event this weekend up near Charlotte.


There was a KCBS event this past weekend in Fort Mill SC just south of Charlotte

bbq.tom
09-23-2013, 08:14 PM
When you get to the next comp, find the head judge, explain in detail the process you want to execute on the pork, and they can tell you if it is OK or not. So then, if another team sees you doing it and tells the judges, you have already cleared your process with the judges.

In the case of KCBS, check with the REPs. They are final authority at the contest.

Market Hunter
09-23-2013, 08:25 PM
I can testify that the man that is in charge of the team that received the highest Pork score at the KCBS contest in Salisbury this weekend might look dumb...but isn't dumb enough to do that to his Pork.

Wager, even if unintended and giving you the benefit of the doubt that you did see what you said you saw, you pretty much threw 3 teams under the troll bus that internet forums can be at times by making ambiguous statements.

Not real cool to us or the 2 other KCBS teams that this trial by internet falls onto that may not read this forum post or have someone inform them about it like someone did me this evening.

I also feel sorry for everyone pulling their pork tonight and putting it back into the smoker for extra smoke. Make sure you have buddy present with you that knows the Heimlich maneuver when you try to eat it :thumb:

TooSaucedToPork
09-23-2013, 10:05 PM
Hey guys, I was at a comp this past weekend and saw a guy pull his pork butt and then stick it in a metal basket and put it back on the smoker for a few minutes with some heavy smoke for additional smoke flavor. I assume this is legal but with the talk about seperating meat and cooking it I wasn't sure. This team actually finished either 1st or 2nd. so definitely something I would like to try if it is ok.




Wager, even if unintended and giving you the benefit of the doubt that you did see what you said you saw, you pretty much threw 3 teams under the troll bus that internet forums can be at times by making ambiguous statements.

Not real cool to us or the 2 other KCBS teams that this trial by internet falls onto that may not read this forum post or have someone inform them about it like someone did me this evening.

To come to this guys defense...y'all need to quit hassling him. As you can see by the quote above, the guy had an honest question, he did not in ANY way throw ANY team under the bus. He mentioned no team names and He explictly states he is new to Comp BBQ...He is a new cook that had questions...that is one of the reasons this forum exists. If people keep hassling these new cooks, then they will not come here, to this place of BBQ BRETHREN. With the popularity of BBQ skyrocketing, some people have forgot its a family. How would you feel if your question was met with people calling you "a piece of work" or telling them they "threw 3 teams under a bus" just for trying to be a better cook...

Y'all need to get off your high horse and realize he saw something going on over in someones camp. Now it might not have been what he thought it was, but he came here to get a simple question answered because he wanted to see if he could improve his game. Shame on y'all.

cpw
09-24-2013, 04:33 AM
Do you mean an SBN event? There was no SCBA event near Charlotte....Mauldin (we were there) and Columbia. There was an SBN cook in Canton, NC I believe.

You're right..I checked the SCBA results and they hadn't been updated yet. The last event was listed when I checked was Clover. What's your team?


And to get back on track, I agree with TooSauced up there. Wager seems to have had a genuine question about what was right and wrong. He's here to find out the answer, not to get harassed.

Wager
09-24-2013, 05:23 AM
I can testify that the man that is in charge of the team that received the highest Pork score at the KCBS contest in Salisbury this weekend might look dumb...but isn't dumb enough to do that to his Pork.

Wager, even if unintended and giving you the benefit of the doubt that you did see what you said you saw, you pretty much threw 3 teams under the troll bus that internet forums can be at times by making ambiguous statements.

Not real cool to us or the 2 other KCBS teams that this trial by internet falls onto that may not read this forum post or have someone inform them about it like someone did me this evening.

I also feel sorry for everyone pulling their pork tonight and putting it back into the smoker for extra smoke. Make sure you have buddy present with you that knows the Heimlich maneuver when you try to eat it :thumb:

Market Hunter, I really do apologize. I can see that I made a mistake in the way that I worded the initial post. I never should have mentioned any sort of result of any team when I posed the question. Again, it was not my intent to try and stir up any trouble, I just thought it might be a good idea and was going to try it but after thinking about it, thought I should find out if it was ok. I'm very sorry. I do want to make it very clear that I have no idea what this team was doing this for and my guess is that, considering most have a much better understanding of the rules, this team was almost certainly doing this for a peoples choice entry and NOT their actual pork entry.

Ron_L
09-24-2013, 06:10 AM
Mod Note:

Wager has explained his intent with his post and has apologized a couple of times. I think it's very clear that his intention was not to throw anyone under the bus. Let's let this one go and move on. We want folks new to competition to feel comfortable asking questions about the rules and other aspects of BBQ competitions.

boogiesnap
09-24-2013, 07:01 AM
ronelle, i agree with you.

however, asking about a rule and announcing you saw someone break one in a public forum are two different animals.

as to the OP, my initial response is still my best advice to you. read the rules, understand them, and practice under them.

oh and of course, ask questions here and you be AOK. :thumb:

John Bowen
09-24-2013, 07:38 AM
After all that I am still curious if blasting pulled or chopped pork with heavy smoke before turn in really helps with smoke flavor. As far as the rules go I don’t see it any different than those who use their smokers to “rest” meat or keep it warm but I just can’t really see getting a full smoke flavor by just blasting it.

boogiesnap
09-24-2013, 07:44 AM
i would guess there was alot of smoke because they had a new fire going and threw the meat on quickly to heat up, and not to give it more flavor.

i would also guess this would in fact be a PC type of move, not KCBS turn in.

Lake Dogs
09-24-2013, 07:47 AM
After all that I am still curious if blasting pulled or chopped pork with heavy smoke before turn in really helps with smoke flavor. As far as the rules go I don’t see it any different than those who use their smokers to “rest” meat or keep it warm but I just can’t really see getting a full smoke flavor by just blasting it.

Most (not all) sauces really absorb smoke flavor. The folks that will sauce a rib and set it back to "set" usually have little or no smoke at all when they do this because it absorbs smoke so dramatically.

I could see someone doing this (above) if they really felt that they didnt get enough smokiness. However, more often than not, they're desensitized to the smoke themselves and will do so to only get trounced in scoring... Generally, outside of being illegal, it's not a great idea. Unsauced, it's not going to get much extra smoke on it, unless you're using billowy white, and does anyone really like that extra coating of creosote? Probably not...

Wager
09-24-2013, 08:17 AM
Ok, everyone. I've asked a couple of the other guys that were cooking around me this weekend and I was incorrect. This took place PRIOR to the Chicken turn in for their PEOPLES CHOICE turn in, which they won. I don't know if they placed in the actual pork event. I'm really sorry about this. I guess being at the awards after getting no sleep the night before I confused what award they got. The team DID NOT break any rules. Again, I really apologize for the confusion. Being a new team I certainly don't want to be "that" guy out there trying to stir things up. I just thought it seemed like a good idea and was wondering if I should try it. I now have a full understanding of the rules and will not do that at an event.

ModelMaker
09-24-2013, 08:52 AM
I know it's a little late in the process and really I'm not trying to bust your chops, but why would anyone spend between $400 and $1000 on an event and not fully understand all the rules attached to it?
Before I ever entered a contest I read then reread the rules did research on the process's and practices. On this site alone there have been lterally dozens of threads on pork parting and how it has lead up to a rule change in 2014.
Knowing and following the rules is 100% the head cooks responsability. Go to the KCBS website and digest the rules until you can answer any question that might arise, then if your still uncertain check with the contest rep to verify. While the members of this site are very knowlegable they hold no sand at a contest.
Good luck in your future cooks.
Ed

Pole D
09-24-2013, 09:39 AM
Ok, everyone. I've asked a couple of the other guys that were cooking around me this weekend and I was incorrect. This took place PRIOR to the Chicken turn in for their PEOPLES CHOICE turn in, which they won. I don't know if they placed in the actual pork event. I'm really sorry about this. I guess being at the awards after getting no sleep the night before I confused what award they got. The team DID NOT break any rules. Again, I really apologize for the confusion. Being a new team I certainly don't want to be "that" guy out there trying to stir things up. I just thought it seemed like a good idea and was wondering if I should try it. I now have a full understanding of the rules and will not do that at an event.

I thought it might be for People's Choice.

Wager - I have only limited comp experience but Salisbury was the first one I've been to where turn in for People's Choice was before chicken (11-12). The other ones I've been to have had People's Choice after brisket (1:30 - 2:30). Not saying good or bad just different from what I've seen.

bruno994
09-24-2013, 11:40 AM
I won't even mention the fact that the OP was doing a serious case of shiggin, of course, shiggin would be actually entering the other teams site, he was doing more spying than shiggin. Just my observation...maybe this explains why all the top teams have trailers.

Ron_L
09-24-2013, 11:50 AM
After all that I am still curious if blasting pulled or chopped pork with heavy smoke before turn in really helps with smoke flavor. As far as the rules go I don’t see it any different than those who use their smokers to “rest” meat or keep it warm but I just can’t really see getting a full smoke flavor by just blasting it.

My guess is that they really put it in there to heat it up after pulling, but, there is a lot of "new" surface area that is opened up once the meat is pulled, and that may be able to take on additional smoke flavor.

Wager
09-24-2013, 11:59 AM
I won't even mention the fact that the OP was doing a serious case of shiggin, of course, shiggin would be actually entering the other teams site, he was doing more spying than shiggin. Just my observation...maybe this explains why all the top teams have trailers.

I was in my site and a member of another team was over in my space and he mentioned it and so I looked over and we talked about how that looked like a good idea. The team did it at the back of their site in plain view of everyone around them. I never left my site. If that is shiggin then I guess I will put up walls on my tent and not look out of my site. that's the only way that I can think I or the other 8 to 10 teams in sight wouldn't have seen this.

Guys, again, I'm sorry. I messed up. Made a poor post, went to a comp without a full understanding of the rules, and without doing some research, posted a question that could easily be taken as a jab at another team. I don't know what else to say. I'm not trying to shig, I just saw something that I thought was a good idea and asked the question, granted, in a VERY poor way.

TooSaucedToPork
09-24-2013, 12:03 PM
I was in my site and a member of another team was over in my space and he mentioned it and so I looked over and we talked about how that looked like a good idea. The team did it at the back of their site in plain view of everyone around them. I never left my site. If that is shiggin then I guess I will put up walls on my tent and not look out of my site. that's the only way that I can think I or the other 8 to 10 teams in sight wouldn't have seen this.

Guys, again, I'm sorry. I messed up. Made a poor post, went to a comp without a full understanding of the rules, and without doing some research, posted a question that could easily be taken as a jab at another team. I don't know what else to say. I'm not trying to shig, I just saw something that I thought was a good idea and asked the question, granted, in a VERY poor way.

Hey, its cool. Shigging is how new people learn in BBQ. You watch what others do around you and see a good idea. You go home and try to repeat it.

Everybody in this sport has done this to some degree. If they say they haven't they are lying and going to BBQ Hell. You have got nothing to be ashamed of. Like I said before, don't listen to the haters.

ITBFQ
09-24-2013, 12:52 PM
I was in my site and a member of another team was over in my space and he mentioned it and so I looked over and we talked about how that looked like a good idea. The team did it at the back of their site in plain view of everyone around them. I never left my site. If that is shiggin then I guess I will put up walls on my tent and not look out of my site. that's the only way that I can think I or the other 8 to 10 teams in sight wouldn't have seen this.

Guys, again, I'm sorry. I messed up. Made a poor post, went to a comp without a full understanding of the rules, and without doing some research, posted a question that could easily be taken as a jab at another team. I don't know what else to say. I'm not trying to shig, I just saw something that I thought was a good idea and asked the question, granted, in a VERY poor way.

Dude, don't feel bad. Most of us knew it wasn't a jab at another team. Live and let shig. I learned how to cook comp ribs by asking questions and, more importantly, being taken "under the wing" of an excellent competitor who has become a friend as well. Welcome to the bbq world where everyone I have met has been very friendly, helpful and fun to hang with!

boogiesnap
09-24-2013, 01:03 PM
that wasn't even close to shigging.

y'all grasping at straws at this point IMHO.

i agree with TSTP and ITBQ, i would even suggest, next time you see someone doing something that interests you, grab a frosty, walk over and ask, watchya doin'? 9 times out of 10 a helpful conversation will follow.

i wouldn'nt necessarily do that between 12 and 1:30P, but i think you get the gist.

akoda
09-24-2013, 01:11 PM
Can I add a question here along the same lines. If I do two butts one for a turn-in MM and one for pulled pork, do I throw away the rest of the butt after the MM has been cut out? Do I throw it back on a smoker just for my lunch/dinner and risk getting questioned on it?

I know I hear the rules change in 2014 but I haven't seen those yet, are they published?

gettinbasted
09-24-2013, 01:13 PM
If you ain't shiggin, you ain't trying!

gettinbasted
09-24-2013, 01:15 PM
Can I add a question here along the same lines. If I do two butts one for a turn-in MM and one for pulled pork, do I throw away the rest of the butt after the MM has been cut out? Do I throw it back on a smoker just for my lunch/dinner and risk getting questioned on it?

I know I hear the rules change in 2014 but I haven't seen those yet, are they published?

I would just put it back in the holding box until well after the final turn in. After that, cook away!

TooSaucedToPork
09-24-2013, 01:18 PM
I would just put it back in the holding box until well after the final turn in. After that, cook away!

yup...or if you are running two smokers, put it back on after you turn in pork...you cant be accused of cheating if your box is already gone :-)

Q-Dat
09-24-2013, 02:19 PM
I hope that the next person to criticize the OP for asking an honest question gets athlete's foot.

Ron_L
09-24-2013, 02:23 PM
Can I add a question here along the same lines. If I do two butts one for a turn-in MM and one for pulled pork, do I throw away the rest of the butt after the MM has been cut out? Do I throw it back on a smoker just for my lunch/dinner and risk getting questioned on it?

I know I hear the rules change in 2014 but I haven't seen those yet, are they published?

I wouldn't take a chance, just in case. I would take it home and finish cooking it when you are going to eat it.

Meat Man
09-24-2013, 03:04 PM
Usually when folks assume something, you know what happens.