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View Full Version : A Jack draw discussion......for Hawaii


Crash
09-06-2013, 05:31 AM
This is a sincere and honest question as it pertains to the state of Hawaii regarding a Jack draw. There will be no representative from the state of Hawaii this year, to my knowledge.

For the record, I am going to be f5ing all day hoping to see what friends of ours have made the Jack draw. I seriously have no dog in this fight.....honestly!! I guess I'm just sticking up for the USA's 50th state.

Hawaii teams have a one shot deal at gaining a Jack draw. Hawaii has an auto draw for the 15 team, 3rd year event, IBCA Hilo Bay Cook Off. This year it was won by a TX team.

I know, as most comp teams know, that a 15 team competition, 3rd year event is not a Jack draw. My understanding, and I may be very wrong, is that a 10 team sanctioned event in Hawaii is a Jack draw. This was told to me by the organizer and based on the 2012 Hilo Bay event.

So the real question is, as it pertains to Hawaii, what should allow a Hawaii team to represent their home state? Cook better, yes I agree. But with nothing to gauge competition cooking besides one sanctioned event, what is the answer?

Honestly, this is not sour grapes...just want some info and discussion.

Dustaway
09-06-2013, 05:44 AM
This is a similar matter with Alaska for a few years until their BBQ club was built up in size and held more than one contest a year they didn't stand a chance. And even at that I think they have only had "local" representation twice? It's really no different that some of the states out west for a long time several only had 1 or 2 state championships now they give them out like candy........

Hawg Father of Seoul
09-06-2013, 05:51 AM
If you really want discussion... how do you think those Hawaiian teams would do at the Jack?

People can discuss what the Jack is and is not, but even if you think he is a D-bag for sand bagging he worked harder and spent more money "earning" that spot. Personally I think it is BS that there is one spot for the THOUSANDS of Texas teams while there is one spot for the dozen teams in Hawaii.

However, I do think it is fair.

Now that you mention it... do you have a WSM I can borrow next year? :wink:

Crash
09-06-2013, 06:11 AM
If you really want discussion... how do you think those Hawaiian teams would do at the Jack?

People can discuss what the Jack is and is not, but even if you think he is a D-bag for sand bagging he worked harder and spent more money "earning" that spot. Personally I think it is BS that there is one spot for the THOUSANDS of Texas teams while there is one spot for the dozen teams in Hawaii.

However, I do think it is fair.

Now that you mention it... do you have a WSM I can borrow next year? :wink:
Respectfully, that was kinda of a slap in the face to Hawaii cooks, some of who have competed for years in sanctioned events on the mainland. Would they likely do good, no. Would they support their state with pride, yes. Sorry bro, you missed the point of the discussion. It's a point of pride!!

No one said he was D-Bag. Rules are rules and no team that flew here broke them.

I totally agree that it is a bummer that there is a 1 spot for TX. Travel to LA, travel to NM, travel to AZ...you'll have a better chance.

Is it fair based on the current rules...yes!!

Is it ethical, you be the judge. Hawaii cooks can't drive anywhere.

Like I said...it's a discussion.

Crash
09-06-2013, 06:15 AM
This is a similar matter with Alaska for a few years until their BBQ club was built up in size and held more than one contest a year they didn't stand a chance. And even at that I think they have only had "local" representation twice? It's really no different that some of the states out west for a long time several only had 1 or 2 state championships now they give them out like candy........

I honestly think the point of having more than one sanctioned event for HI and AK is the way to go.

We definitely have a long road ahead.

Crash
09-06-2013, 06:18 AM
Now that you mention it... do you have a WSM I can borrow next year? :wink:

Absolutely!!

Hawg Father of Seoul
09-06-2013, 06:21 AM
I totally agree that it is a bummer that there is a 1 spot for TX. Travel to LA, travel to NM, travel to AZ...you'll have a better chance.

Is it fair based on the current rules...yes!!

Is it ethical, you be the judge. Hawaii cooks can't drive anywhere.

Like I said...it's a discussion.

Hawaii cooks can fly to other states. If I lived in Hawaii, you bet I would (if I was serious about winning). They have the same opportunity that the Texas team had. Meaning- if you can't make it by winning at home... fly somewhere you can. Would he have looked silly if he lost?

The two state championship contests I competed in my home state this year were won by Missouri teams. Both great guys BTW.

Respectfully, I do not think ethics has a damn thing to do with it. I think you mean "sense of fair play".

esselle
09-06-2013, 06:28 AM
It's a shame you don't have the same rules as International teams ie if you came over here and won one of our qualifiers the top placed U.K. team placed below you still goes into the drawaswell as you going into your draw.
On a side note I have tried twice to join the Hawaii bbq forum ...is it still active?

Crash
09-06-2013, 06:41 AM
Hawaii cooks can fly to other states. If I lived in Hawaii, you bet I would (if I was serious about winning). They have the same opportunity that the Texas team had. Meaning- if you can't make it by winning at home... fly somewhere you can. Would he have looked silly if he lost. lol cough SYD cough SYD

The two state championship contests I competed in my home state this year were won by Missouri teams. Both great guys BTW.

Respectfully, I do not think ethics has a damn thing to do with it. I think you mean "sense of fair play".

Can borrow an extra $1800? I wish I had your cash bro. :)

Same opportunity that the TX team did, cooking a ton of IBCA's...nope. 100% Disagree!! HI cooks have one comp/yr, TX Teams have 20+/yr. Cooking competitively 20+ times a year vs cooking 1 time a year are different. Experience dominates inexperience.

Respectfully, you have 100% missed my point amigo.
Hawaii teams would love to rep their state. That is all. HI teams have the opportunity to compete once a year based on geographical location/finances.

There is no secret to why the teams that fly out here are coming here. Is it unethical...no. It's well with in the rules.

Would you do it??

Hawg Father of Seoul
09-06-2013, 06:45 AM
Would you do it??

No, I am not a d-bag......

Ford
09-06-2013, 07:39 AM
Can borrow an extra $1800? I wish I had your cash bro. :)

Same opportunity that the TX team did, cooking a ton of IBCA's...nope. 100% Disagree!! HI cooks have one comp/yr, TX Teams have 20+/yr. Cooking competitively 20+ times a year vs cooking 1 time a year are different. Experience dominates inexperience.

Respectfully, you have 100% missed my point amigo.
Hawaii teams would love to rep their state. That is all. HI teams have the opportunity to compete once a year based on geographical location/finances.

There is no secret to why the teams that fly out here are coming here. Is it unethical...no. It's well with in the rules.

Would you do it??

Get a second contest started and you'll see it change. You can still get a team fly in and vacation as well but they won't just come to compete. Back when I started competing Michigan was an automatic state. With the 2nd contest added we had less out of state teams. Also if a HI team wins one of the 2 contests then they will go to the jack as a home state gc if they do not win the draw.

CBQ
09-06-2013, 07:47 AM
If a contest is the only contest in a state, it's an auto qualifier with only 15 teams. It can even be an auto under other circumstances. In Maine last year, there were 3 contests, but two of those were won by teams that had already auto qualified, so the last contest (a second year event with 24 teams) counted as it was the only remaining event in that state.

Note that if you get more contests in HI, the existing one will require 25 teams to be a qualified event.
If a team from HI flys to the mainland and wins a GC, they will win the "home state" draw. The Jack tries to have a team from every state, so if in a TX team wins in HI, and a HI team wins elsewhere - even in a state with lots of qualfied events - they will still get in.

My wife doesn't like long distance contests, but could probably talk her into doing one there. :becky:

dano
09-06-2013, 08:11 AM
If HI only has one event that gets 15 teams, how many teams do you think would show up if HI had more comps?

Balls Casten
09-06-2013, 08:42 AM
I’m sorry Crash .. I have a hard time finding sympathy for anyone that lives in Hawaii. If you ever get in let me know. I’ll come watch your house while you cook in the mud soaked hollow in the rain. :-)

Podge
09-06-2013, 08:57 AM
Buy me a plane ticket and hotel and I'll be on your team next year ! :)

Big Poppa
09-06-2013, 09:37 AM
Crash you know that Im your pal....but if you only have one contest and its 15 teams and two are from out of state, then there is a total of 13 local teams interested in getting to the Jack? Some may say a one in 15 chance is better odds that all of the thousands of mainland teams get.

If you want this to get airtime you guys need to get more Hawaiian teams involved and the second contest takes the whole automatic away.

Alexa RnQ
09-06-2013, 09:39 AM
Putting the onus on Hawaii-based teams to fly elsewhere to compete is ridiculous. Especially when I often hear whining about having to drive more than four or five hours to a contest.

Cooks often say all they want is a level playing field. How is it remotely level when a team in the contiguous states can put in a little gas money and a few hours and be in another state with additional draw opportunities, but a Hawaii team has to bear the expense of airfare(s) in addition? Not to mention equipment issues.

And even after that issue is addressed, the same hardships apply to that team then actually traveling to Lynchburg. I think it is much more analogous to a foreign team's logistics, not comparable to another state's team driving for an extra day. I can't imagine begrudging that HI team a protected shot because one doesn't like the odds in one's own state.

And whether or not that team is likely to do well there isn't the point either. Each year that we've been lucky enough to be in the Hollow, we've met teams who won one contest somewhere and got drawn. That was our own situation our first year. Those teams may not win anything, they may never go again. Who is going to look them in the eye and tell them they don't deserve to be there??

As suggested, having multiple contests to increase the chances of producing a Hawaii-based GC is one answer. That's a high enough hurdle in a state with extremely limited participation, and significant expense involved in getting personnel and equipment just from one island to another.

I've been of the opinion that HI should be treated like a foreign country due to the points above, perhaps until the state ramps up to a certain number of contests. Once it produces a state rep GC on its own, then it's more like any other win-and-in state (which are not nearly as plentiful as a few years back).

The growing pains of a state on the uphill climb to parity in competition BBQ is something we've worked with since we started, so perhaps it's easier for me to imagine and empathize with the situation of teams there. But given the resources, I'd still love to go there to compete. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

Crash
09-06-2013, 01:04 PM
If HI only has one event that gets 15 teams, how many teams do you think would show up if HI had more comps?

Mainland teams or local teams? The short answer in regards to mainland teams is, probably 0...maybe 1.

Crash
09-06-2013, 01:17 PM
Crash you know that Im your pal....but if you only have one contest and its 15 teams and two are from out of state, then there is a total of 13 local teams interested in getting to the Jack? Some may say a one in 15 chance is better odds that all of the thousands of mainland teams get.

If you want this to get airtime you guys need to get more Hawaiian teams involved and the second contest takes the whole automatic away.
Keep in mind that the 1 sanctioned event is on the Big Island, less than 20% of HI's population. There are 30+ teams that compete (non-sanctioned) on Oahu alone. The multiple island thing is part of our state's hurdle.

The price of plane tickets, floating a car/gear over on a barge and hotel (barges only arrive a few times/week, gotta be there to wait on them) easily climb into the thousands and that's before the low entry fee and associated comp costs.

The short answer on this one is....get more sanctioned comps. Finding an organizer/promoter willing to pay for tickets/lodging/etc. for KCBS/IBCA reps is not so easy when you look at it from a $ standpoint.

Then again, we do live in Hawaii.

Aloha Sterling...hope you hear your name called today.

Crash
09-06-2013, 01:19 PM
Putting the onus on Hawaii-based teams to fly elsewhere to compete is ridiculous. Especially when I often hear whining about having to drive more than four or five hours to a contest.

Cooks often say all they want is a level playing field. How is it remotely level when a team in the contiguous states can put in a little gas money and a few hours and be in another state with additional draw opportunities, but a Hawaii team has to bear the expense of airfare(s) in addition? Not to mention equipment issues.

And even after that issue is addressed, the same hardships apply to that team then actually traveling to Lynchburg. I think it is much more analogous to a foreign team's logistics, not comparable to another state's team driving for an extra day. I can't imagine begrudging that HI team a protected shot because one doesn't like the odds in one's own state.

And whether or not that team is likely to do well there isn't the point either. Each year that we've been lucky enough to be in the Hollow, we've met teams who won one contest somewhere and got drawn. That was our own situation our first year. Those teams may not win anything, they may never go again. Who is going to look them in the eye and tell them they don't deserve to be there??

As suggested, having multiple contests to increase the chances of producing a Hawaii-based GC is one answer. That's a high enough hurdle in a state with extremely limited participation, and significant expense involved in getting personnel and equipment just from one island to another.

I've been of the opinion that HI should be treated like a foreign country due to the points above, perhaps until the state ramps up to a certain number of contests. Once it produces a state rep GC on its own, then it's more like any other win-and-in state (which are not nearly as plentiful as a few years back).

The growing pains of a state on the uphill climb to parity in competition BBQ is something we've worked with since we started, so perhaps it's easier for me to imagine and empathize with the situation of teams there. But given the resources, I'd still love to go there to compete. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

I think you nailed it Alexa! It will definitely be a while before HI gets on an uphill climb in sanctioned events.

Scottie
09-06-2013, 01:36 PM
Wait.... you live in Hawaii and you want us to feel sorry for you? Go surf a wave and get sun burnt..... :grin:

swamprb
09-06-2013, 06:46 PM
Form a BBQ Organization for Hawaii, have a website that includes a calendar of events and inform the fine folks at JD that your organization wishes to be recognized as the 50th State and have 1 or 2 day events and cook Beef, Pork and Chicken. Special exceptions may be granted to the team limits or lack thereof, so start having grilling contests.
Publicly post the results, with # of teams etc, etc, and make sure you keep in contact with the JD organizers. Read their rules and I repeat cook Beef, Pork and Chicken!


I'd like to post this letter submitted by the Secretary to the PNWBA membership, approved by the BOD regarding the Jack rules interpretations and the JD's inclusions of some of our events that cooked Tri-Tip and were considered by them to be Qualifying Events.

While I am not in favor of them, you may be able to use it to your advantage.

Quote:
Topic
MADDOG
Azores
847 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2013 : 07:47:37
In recent and on-going communications between President Jane Biehl and representatives of the Annual Jack Danielís World Championship Invitational Barbecue, (the Jack), an issue about our one day "Lite" competitions was brought up by the Jack, not by the PNWBA leadership. While these started weeks ago, only recently have we come to the absolute conclusion that the Jack considers that their current rules DO make some Lite competitions qualifiers. On-going efforts to get final answers to all related questions, are not yet concluded.


While ďrules are rulesĒ and published rules are reviewable by anyone, such private events do hold the right to interpret their rules and the PNWBA leadership continues to pursue a complete understanding of the current interpretations so as to assist everyoneís efforts relating to our Lite cooks.


Looking forward, our biggest concern is the interpretation of what does or does not qualify in those meat categories. They have spelled out that our Tri-Tip category, for example, qualifies for the beef requirement. The staff of the Jack has been very helpful and cooperative, to date, and the President is awaiting a response to her specific questions about what cuts of meats are qualifying meats.


So, the Association continues pursuing the most complete understanding we can glean on this issue but after all the recent communications, itís still somewhat of an open issue. However, we do now know that an event such as the upcoming Surrey competition certainly can be a qualifier as the organizer has announced.


Briefly looking back, this year's Abbotsford event has been declared a qualifier by the Jack as it met all the requirements and of course needed no proclamation. Other lite events this year were not considered due to factors such as no proclamations, insufficient participation and we simply did not know they could have been eligible


However, the subsequent question becomes, do we want them to be? Members are wrestling with that now and it's not a one-sided issue. Experienced cooks are coming down on both pro and con positions and with sound rationale. So, it seems this will be an on-going issue to some extent but the purpose of this message has been to let you know that your leadership is up to its eyebrows in it. The President, working with the Jack representatives, uncovered the issue and we are all concerned about its potential effect on the Association.

If members want to weigh in with constructive thoughts about WHAT WE SHOULD DO NOW, an email to Secretary@PNWBA.com will make your voice heard. If we discuss it elsewhere, letís remember that we are guests at the Jack, their guests. Letís try to be good guests as we make remarks about the issue.


What we can consider is, do we want to see our Lite cooks as qualifiers earning the same chance for a shot to the Jack as the Grand Champs at the full-blown two-day competitions. We believe we may have some say in that from this end but should we? Or should we take the stand that itís their event and their rules. Itís not up to us to thwart those.


We're sorry we havenít gotten to you with definitive answers sooner but as you can see, despite on-going communications, some questions about this issue are still to be settled. And finally, letís be clear that there are NO new rules from the Jack that make Lite cooks qualifiers. Rather, there is a new and developing interpretation of those rules which have been around for years. We'll keep working it and let you know what we find.
Pat "Maddog" Maddock
PNWBA Secretary 2013-14
PNWBA CBJ#200412
KCBS CBJ#60627
Webers, Traeger, Cookshack and a translucent Thermapen...it's magically delicious!
...MADDOG'S BBQ

Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It will frustrate you, annoy the pig and delay the damned BBQ!
Edited by - MADDOG on 08/26/2013 07:08:38
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just sayin'!

Outnumbered
09-06-2013, 09:16 PM
OK. I'll give. I'm moving to Hawaii. I'll start packing tomorrow.