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View Full Version : First Experience with KCBScore


SaucyWench
08-18-2013, 09:37 PM
Yesterday was the first competition I've judged since KCBScore was implemented, and after hearing some comments from cooks, I have a concern about the fact that table numbers are not changed.
Rumor has it that some competitors are asking judges after awards for their table numbers, and their seat number, and who else was at their table, and what their seat numbers were, in order to find out who scored their entry lower than they thought it should be. While I would hope this isn't common, to me, it totally goes against the blind judging that we expect from KCBS.
I have no problem with KCBS tracking my scoring, or cooks seeing how I and the other 5 judges at my table scored on average in that category on that day. However, I do have a problem with being "outed" if I got a bad piece of chicken or a fatty brisket chunk and scored it as I felt was appropriate. Just as I don't know if I'm sampling a friend's turn-in or if it came from someone I don't know, I don't want cooks to know which judges to love or hate that day!
I seriously feel like this needs to be addressed by KCBS. What do you think, Brethren & Sistren?

fnbish
08-18-2013, 09:47 PM
Do the rumors also say if the judges who get asked the questions answer all of them. Do these judges in fact "out" their fellow judges? I've only judged a few times as I'm normally cooking, but if a cook team asked me where I was sitting, what my seat number was, who else was at the table I would know pretty quickly what they were trying to do and not answer.

Podge
08-18-2013, 09:49 PM
Blind judging is blind judging.. But after the dust settles and we all get our score sheets, some people with bad scores could be more than inclined to ask their judge friends if it was them or not. It might be blind to judges, but it's not totally 100% blind to us cooks once we get our sheets, and can ask judges that happen to be there on Saturday. You are still judging blind at the time.

Podge
08-18-2013, 09:50 PM
I would also have to say, none of my entries this weekend hit the high scoring table, and one of my entries hit one of the low scoring tables. It was very interesting to get to see my new score sheet.

Uncle Buds BBQ
08-18-2013, 10:11 PM
Now, with the details that KCBScore gives I will never reveal what table I sat at! :gossip:

SaucyWench
08-18-2013, 10:14 PM
I do not know if the judges who were asked answered in full, and as I said this was rumor. But in the past, it would not have mattered if you told your table and seat number, as they didn't have that info on their score sheets...it was just judge 1,2,3,4,5,6 at a random table.
I guess it is still blind judging, but there are comps where the judging is out in the open with competitors within hearing distance (think Owensboro). Not hard at all for a cook to at least figure out the table numbers, if not seat numbers.

ThomEmery
08-18-2013, 10:31 PM
K n K had the scoop
If there are 12 tables like at Huntington Ca
You should say table 13 judge 7

dnew
08-18-2013, 10:49 PM
I have judged several KCBS comps under the new scoring system and have been asked by several teams to reveal where I sat. My standard answer is that I have the duty to do my part to maintain the integrity of the scoring system and as such cannot and will not reveal where I or any other judge sat during the judging process. I respect what the teams do to cook for comps and I hope that the cooks have the same respect for the judging process. Also, it is difficult to remember exactly how I scored any sample unless the sample was a standout, good or bad.

Don

Rich Parker
08-19-2013, 07:00 AM
Yesterday was the first competition I've judged since KCBScore was implemented, and after hearing some comments from cooks, I have a concern about the fact that table numbers are not changed.
Rumor has it that some competitors are asking judges after awards for their table numbers, and their seat number, and who else was at their table, and what their seat numbers were, in order to find out who scored their entry lower than they thought it should be. While I would hope this isn't common, to me, it totally goes against the blind judging that we expect from KCBS.
I have no problem with KCBS tracking my scoring, or cooks seeing how I and the other 5 judges at my table scored on average in that category on that day. However, I do have a problem with being "outed" if I got a bad piece of chicken or a fatty brisket chunk and scored it as I felt was appropriate. Just as I don't know if I'm sampling a friend's turn-in or if it came from someone I don't know, I don't want cooks to know which judges to love or hate that day!
I seriously feel like this needs to be addressed by KCBS. What do you think, Brethren & Sistren?

Why does it matter if someone asked you why you scored an entry the way you did like your example of bad chicken or fatty brisket? Just tell them it was bad.

Lake Dogs
08-19-2013, 07:42 AM
Coming from an MIM and MBN background, I'm right there with Rich. Tell them. As a judge, I'm accustomed to talking with teams. As a competitor, I'm accustomed to talking with the judge. I mean it's subjective for goodness sake. Everyone has an opinion.... For that matter, it's normal for an on-site judge to later come back and discuss with the teams (after it's all said and done with)...

sweetracks
08-19-2013, 07:52 AM
I've done 2 contests with the new score sheets and have had bbq friends judging both events. After awards I asked both of them which table they were sitting at..really don't care which seat. My thought is this....if someone does remember my entry, good or bad, I'd like to have some insight. In one case, the judge was able to give me a general over view of his samples (everything looked and tasted almost the same...nothing stood out). In the other case, I had won the table and my entry stood out and was able to get some insight on what made it stand out. Both instances were very helpful. I will continue to ask judges I know which table they were sitting at. I will also respect the judges wishes if they don't want to divulge that info.

ModelMaker
08-19-2013, 08:25 AM
I haven't run into it yet but if asked I'll just tell them I was at the good table, just like when I'm asked how the meat was that day I tell them most were very good with a couple bad ones though.
All true.
Ed

Lake Dogs
08-19-2013, 08:26 AM
We seem to want to think that this is cloak-and-dagger stuff. It's not. The only purpose for the blind is to level the playing field; that's all. Once judging is complete, the game is over. Why not talk? Why not explain. If you dont like someones Q, tell them for goodness sake. If you dont want to, then dont.

CBQ
08-19-2013, 10:11 AM
I would love to hear why judges didn't like my chicken (33rd) or brisket (28th) in Hudson Valley last weekend. They are almost always top 10, and often top 5 entries, and there were no problems with our cook that I could detect. I would love to see comment cards come back.

I do think that judges shouldn't out other judges. If a judge wants to reveal where THEY sat, that's their choice, but they don't have the right expose others.

bignburlyman
08-19-2013, 11:10 AM
I would have to look it up and see if it is actually in the rules but I can remember a few years ago a discussion about judges talking to the teams after judging that if they got detailed enough to specify a certain entry judged that they could be subject to banishment and loosing their CBJ status. When I am asked I try to be pretty non-committal about the entries, I usually respond like "All the rib entries were good, but some of the brisket was only average or worse."

musicmanryann
08-19-2013, 11:11 AM
I would love to hear why judges didn't like my chicken (31st) or brisket (28th) in Hudson Valley last weekend. They are almost always top 10, and often top 5 entries, and there were no problems with our cook that I could detect. I would love to see comment cards come back.

I had a similar experience this weekend. Would love to hear feedback as well, always got something to learn.

Good news though is that according to the minutes of last week's KCBS Board meeting, comment cards are coming back as soon as they can get them printed and to the reps. :clap2:

dhuffjr
08-19-2013, 11:13 AM
CBQ, I liked the comment cards as well. While it may sting to get some serious harsh criticism on the product of your efforts for the weekend. It is the only way you can improve if we can get some reasons for the numbers.

CBQ
08-19-2013, 11:34 AM
CBQ, I liked the comment cards as well. While it may sting to get some serious harsh criticism on the product of your efforts for the weekend. It is the only way you can improve if we can get some reasons for the numbers.

Getting 33 in chicken was already some harsh criticism. :becky:

Either BBQRACE is having a data issue, or they are trying to rub it in LOL:

Chicken
Event Name Rank Points Score
Troy Pig Out 1 175.4172 282
The Lexington Battle-Green BBQ Festival 2 170.8572 255
Monadnock Up In Smoke BBQ Fest 3 173.1428 242
The Harpoon Championships of New England 5 169.6800 181
Smokin @ the Ballpark BBQ Festival 8 169.7142 148
Sam's Club National BBQ Tour 9 157.7028 137
Green Lane Fire CO's 19 159.4284 105
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Roc City Rib Fest 31 160.5716 75
Pork in the Park Barbeque Festival 61 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Wakefield Rotary Campus CookOff & State BBQ 38 151.9772 71

We knew what was wrong with the chicken at Roc City, Pork in Park, and Green Lane. Hudson Valley and Wakefield we have no idea.

dano
08-19-2013, 11:36 AM
I don't think that it is wrong to ask.
I agree with Lake Dogs...once it's over why not?
As long as the judge only discusses their scoring and doesn't out other judges at the table.

CivilWarBBQ
08-19-2013, 09:20 PM
I don't think that it is wrong to ask.
I agree with Lake Dogs...once it's over why not?
As long as the judge only discusses their scoring and doesn't out other judges at the table.

I disagree.

Cooks tend to be defensive when they don't like their scores, and the last thing we need in KCBS is more divisiveness between the judges and cooks. I am always happy to discuss the entries I judged in very general terms: i.e. "brisket was very good, ribs were below average, saw some drumsticks today, etc." but I would rebuke any cook that asked me for my table or judge numbers.

I firmly believe that there is nothing good that comes from breaking the blind in blind box judging. Even in MBN where there is face-to-face judging in the onsite portion, anonymous judging is maintained in the blind box.

If you want feedback from CBJs, organize a test cook with another team or two and invite some judges for a live judging critique. Comment cards are the way to handle critique at a contest, and hopefully they will be coming back soon.

dr pearl
08-19-2013, 09:37 PM
Not only do I want to see comment cards, I think they should be mandatory for every entry. The judges should be held accountable for the scores they give. Hell, they 're eating our food for free. A number does not help me in any way know what was wrong with my dish in the eyes of the judges, however, a good cook should be able to ID that him/herself.

Derussi
08-19-2013, 09:43 PM
Quite honestly, once a catagory is done, I don't remember my scores. I forget it and move on to the next catagory.

big matt
08-19-2013, 09:51 PM
Getting 33 in chicken was already some harsh criticism. :becky:

Either BBQRACE is having a data issue, or they are trying to rub it in LOL:

Chicken
Event Name Rank Points Score
Troy Pig Out 1 175.4172 282
The Lexington Battle-Green BBQ Festival 2 170.8572 255
Monadnock Up In Smoke BBQ Fest 3 173.1428 242
The Harpoon Championships of New England 5 169.6800 181
Smokin @ the Ballpark BBQ Festival 8 169.7142 148
Sam's Club National BBQ Tour 9 157.7028 137
Green Lane Fire CO's 19 159.4284 105
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Roc City Rib Fest 31 160.5716 75
Pork in the Park Barbeque Festival 61 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Hudson Valley Ribfest 33 156.0000 75
Wakefield Rotary Campus CookOff & State BBQ 38 151.9772 71

We knew what was wrong with the chicken at Roc City, Pork in Park, and Green Lane. Hudson Valley and Wakefield we have no idea.Yep BBQ race has been screwy all year long and are behind..BBQ race is a cool site but if they can't keep track what good is it..KCBS is now showing all rankings which was long overdue..sorry for getting a little off topic.

Lake Dogs
08-20-2013, 08:18 AM
I disagree.

Cooks tend to be defensive when they don't like their scores, and the last thing we need in KCBS is more divisiveness between the judges and cooks. I am always happy to discuss the entries I judged in very general terms: i.e. "brisket was very good, ribs were below average, saw some drumsticks today, etc." but I would rebuke any cook that asked me for my table or judge numbers.

I firmly believe that there is nothing good that comes from breaking the blind in blind box judging. Even in MBN where there is face-to-face judging in the onsite portion, anonymous judging is maintained in the blind box.

If you want feedback from CBJs, organize a test cook with another team or two and invite some judges for a live judging critique. Comment cards are the way to handle critique at a contest, and hopefully they will be coming back soon.

Gowan, Respectfully, I'll disagree with you on much of this. I do agree that we certainly dont want anything to contribute to divisiveness between judges and cooks. However, I'm of the opinion that the "cloak and dagger" secrecy tends to add to it rather than just encourage open, honest dialogue.

The blind, in blind, is during the judging process, and I for one have never seen it compromised thankfully in any competition. However, there's nothing blind after the fact. Judging is over.

I'm not saying it cant get touchy; I'm sure it can. People are competing.

musicmanryann
08-20-2013, 09:26 AM
Gowan, Respectfully, I'll disagree with you on much of this. I do agree that we certainly dont want anything to contribute to divisiveness between judges and cooks. However, I'm of the opinion that the "cloak and dagger" secrecy tends to add to it rather than just encourage open, honest dialogue.

The blind, in blind, is during the judging process, and I for one have never seen it compromised thankfully in any competition. However, there's nothing blind after the fact. Judging is over.

I'm not saying it cant get touchy; I'm sure it can. People are competing.

I agree.

One of the more interesting things that happened cooking our first MIM, and the whole judging experience that happens there--one of our on-site judges came back over to our site once the judging was complete and gave us open feedback on why he scored us the way he did. Since all of us had only done KCBS in the past, we were floored he did this and were very thankful for his feedback and respectful of his critique.

You don't have to agree with the feedback, but hey, we are all adults here and hopefully most know how to be respectful towards each other during an open dialogue.

QN
08-20-2013, 10:21 AM
Every time I judge MIM on-site I always go back to each team and tell them what I scored them and why. My opinion is that if I am not willing to go back and look a team in the eye and tell them face to face why I scored their entry the way I did then I should not be judging. I have made a lot of friends and gotten to know a lot of teams by simply doing this. While there have been instances where they were not happy with what I had to say, they still appreciated the fact that I took the time to come back and tell them to their face what I scored their entry and why.
On another note regarding comment cards; a number of years ago NEBS was using comment slips before KCBS ever started. I judged at a KCBS/NEBS event in Vermont and wrote a comment slip on a chicken entry that was terrible. After awards, I was visiting with a team and asked them if they had received any comments. They said yes and handed me the envelope with several comment slips in it. I looked through them and found the one I had written on the terrible chicken entry. I pulled it out and told them that I had written it. The guy said he could not believe that I had the balls to sit there in his cook site and drink his beer and tell him to his face that I had made that comment about his chicken. I told him that he had three more comments that pretty much said the same thing and that if four out of six judges took the time to write it down for him then he should probably make a change to his chicken. I also told him that I had no problem telling him to his face that I wrote one of the negative comments. A couple of weeks later, he entered another contest and finished second in chicken. I sent him an email congratulating him on the chicken finish and asked him what he changed. He emailed me back and asked why I thought he had changed anything. I responded that he must have changed something since he went from DAL to second. In his response he admitted that he did change what he did and he thanked me for the input I had provded.

Lake Dogs
08-20-2013, 10:28 AM
I agree.

One of the more interesting things that happened cooking our first MIM, and the whole judging experience that happens there--one of our on-site judges came back over to our site once the judging was complete and gave us open feedback on why he scored us the way he did. Since all of us had only done KCBS in the past, we were floored he did this and were very thankful for his feedback and respectful of his critique.

You don't have to agree with the feedback, but hey, we are all adults here and hopefully most know how to be respectful towards each other during an open dialogue.

I'd always done this as a judge (go back and talk, with ALL of the teams), and when I competed (which I'd like to do more, money and time allowing) I really, REALLY appreciated the feedback. Last time it was particularly tough to hear because we got glowing reports on the shoulders (which I did) and the reports were honestly brutal on the ribs (which I outsourced to a friend who'd just heard how wonderful the the shoulders are/were). It was tough to hear on many levels. However, I was very thankful of the honesty.

Like you said, we're adults.

Uomograsso
08-20-2013, 04:24 PM
I understand the need to keep the blind judging, but I don't think knowing which judges scored your teams entry will compromise that. There is no way a team could arrange to have all friendly judges sit at one table and then manage to have their box hit that table. The bigger issue would be with bias towards the "top" teams, i.e. those that get a lot of publicity or are at the top of the TOY standings etc.

As for me I have no problem telling a team why I scored them the way I did. I often walk around the cooking area after judging to see if I know any of the teams competing. If you see a judge walking by and have time, invite them in, give them a sample of your product and ask what they think. I would and I hope most judges would give you an honest answer.

rib runners
08-20-2013, 07:20 PM
I hope that KCBS will use the information obtained from the new scoring system to profile judges. Using the obtained scoring numbers from past comps to place equal number; 3 high scoring judges with 3 low ballers. This way in all fairness, table numbers wouldn't really matter. I guess we shall see.

Ron Yater

SaucyWench
08-20-2013, 09:05 PM
As I said, KCBS "profiling" me doesn't bother me at all. And as long as cooks do act like adults and don't get pi$$y if they find out who gave them a score they don't agree with, I demur to all who say this doesn't matter.
However, as a judge who comes to comps on Friday if possible, tries to meet all the cook teams, judges honestly as I was taught to, and always stays for awards to cheer on everyone who gets a call, if KCBS' putting real table numbers and seat numbers on the tally sheets and compromising my anonymity causes me to lose a single cook friend, I have a huge problem with it.

Lake Dogs
08-20-2013, 09:31 PM
Saucy, I'm not saying it's not possible, some people refuse to behave like intelligent adults. However, it has been my experience that almost all do (behave like adults), even if/when they disagree with you.

I had an opportunity to help a competitor that I'd like to think used some of the knowledge to win MiM 2 years back. I had an opportunity to judge him on-site in whole hog. It was fantastic; I mean really extraordinarily top shelf. Later I saw his blind box at the grazing table; I recognized his by his very distinctive sauces. Wow, what a difference. When that hog cooled it wasn't good at all. What was most heavinly fresh and hot, cool frankly sucked and didnt go with the sauces at all. This all apparently came as news to him. Apparently he's used a few of these tips and info; now he doesn't lose many....

I've achieved every goal I set out for when I began competing, except 1. I wanted to beat Buster of Boggy Pond Brigade; I have. I wanted to beat Myron of Jacks Old South; I have. I've yet to beat him (above); Lonnie of Bubba Grills.

My point is: I've judged him, I've competed against him. Somehow we're still friends... I've had his Q on simply amazing days, and I've judged him on days where he wasn't on top of his game... He hasn't shot me yet. :-) FYI: last few years when I've drawn him on-site, I've swapped that draw card. I didnt want to be either overly critical because I've seen him "better", nor did I want to show him favoritism because I know just how ****ed good he is, and I didnt want to ever second-guess myself...
I do still want to beat him some good October day; he knows it. :-)

CivilWarBBQ
08-20-2013, 10:18 PM
The problem is that y'all are assuming all cooks always "act like responsible adults" and all judges are gregarious and comfortable with criticizing a team's product in person.

Unfortunately that is not the case, and I'd be willing to bet you all know at least one cook who has commented that they won't cook MBN because "they're not going to screw with that dog and pony show BS". If you are going to break the blind you might as well not bother with it in the first place and have a live TV feed from the judges tent a la BBQ Pitmasters.

I still don't like the idea of breaking the blind after the fact, but as a compromise to those who think this is A Good Thing why not allow judges to OPTIONALLY put their name on their comment cards if they wish? I would rather see this than have all judges be cross-examined by teams when they take the time to visit after judging is complete.

You won't see any of them posting here, but there are quite a few very good judges who are non-confrontational and rather shy who will avoid post-judging interaction with the teams completely if this sort of thing becomes the norm. And that would be a shame, because thoughtful, introverted folks are often some of the best judges.