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Goddahavit
08-11-2013, 06:12 AM
It was great to meet some new people, and we cant thank enough The grand Po ba!! Phil for his help this weekend!!
Congrats to all that competed, walked and that are moving on!

Sam's Club National BBQ Tour

Medford, NY
08/09/2013 - 08/10/2013


Grand Champion: FEEDING FRIENDZ
Reserve Champion: INSANE SWINE BBQ

Overall:
1. FEEDING FRIENDZ - 642.7544
2. INSANE SWINE BBQ - 637.0972
3. FIRE & SPICE - 633.6340
4. THE BASIC BBQ TEAM - 632.5028
5. ZBQ - 629.0744
6. GOTHAM CITY GRILLERS - 622.7316
7. STUBBORN BULL BBQ - 621.1204
8. Q HAVEN - 620.5376
9. SMOKIN HOGGZ BBQ - MA - 619.8624
10. TRANSFORMER BBQ - 610.7772
11. WHITE DOG BBQ - 605.5772
12. EASTERN BEAST BBQ TEAM - 601.0284
13. BLAZIN' BUTTZ BBQ - 600.3772
14. RED NECK CAVIAR - 599.3716
15. GRIM REAPER SMOKERS - 599.2572
16. BBQ MAFIA - 598.7888
17. THAT'S OUR QUE - 593.5884
18. MEAT @ SLIMS - 591.2460
19. DAN'S TBD BBQ - 590.7544
20. MORNIN' WOOD LONG ISLAND - 590.2972
21. HERDING SMOKE - 589.9884
22. LITTLE CREEK BAR B CUE COMPANY - 587.3712
23. TELL YOU WHAT BBQ - 575.8060
24. MR. DIRT'S BBQ - 567.9084
25. MA'S 'QUE CREW - 565.6000
26. PH PITTERS - 564.9600
27. LATHAM HOUSE BBQ - 539.6344



Chicken:
1. FEEDING FRIENDZ - 175.4400
2. THE BASIC BBQ TEAM - 168.5828
3. MR. DIRT'S BBQ - 164.5600
4. FIRE & SPICE - 162.8228
5. BLAZIN' BUTTZ BBQ - 159.4172
6. DAN'S TBD BBQ - 159.4056
7. LITTLE CREEK BAR B CUE COMPANY - 159.3828
8. Q HAVEN - 157.7144
9. ZBQ - 157.7028
10. WHITE DOG BBQ - 157.1084
11. EASTERN BEAST BBQ TEAM - 156.5256
12. MA'S 'QUE CREW - 156.0228
13. GOTHAM CITY GRILLERS - 155.3828
14. INSANE SWINE BBQ - 154.8456
15. LATHAM HOUSE BBQ - 154.2400
16. MEAT @ SLIMS - 154.2284
17. SMOKIN HOGGZ BBQ - MA - 152.5600
18. THAT'S OUR QUE - 150.2628
19. PH PITTERS - 150.2400
20. MORNIN' WOOD LONG ISLAND - 149.7144
21. BBQ MAFIA - 149.0856
22. TELL YOU WHAT BBQ - 146.2288
23. GRIM REAPER SMOKERS - 146.2284
24. RED NECK CAVIAR - 145.0972
25. STUBBORN BULL BBQ - 143.9544
26. TRANSFORMER BBQ - 142.2400
27. HERDING SMOKE - 140.4456


Ribs:
1. GOTHAM CITY GRILLERS - 167.4172
2. TRANSFORMER BBQ - 160.5944
3. SMOKIN HOGGZ BBQ - MA - 155.9772
4. ZBQ - 154.8344
5. BBQ MAFIA - 154.2972
6. FEEDING FRIENDZ - 154.2516
7. RED NECK CAVIAR - 153.1772
8. MR. DIRT'S BBQ - 153.1428
9. INSANE SWINE BBQ - 153.1316
10. THE BASIC BBQ TEAM - 153.0972
11. TELL YOU WHAT BBQ - 153.0972
12. WHITE DOG BBQ - 152.5372
13. EASTERN BEAST BBQ TEAM - 151.9772
14. STUBBORN BULL BBQ - 150.3088
15. FIRE & SPICE - 150.2856
16. HERDING SMOKE - 149.6344
17. Q HAVEN - 149.1544
18. BLAZIN' BUTTZ BBQ - 149.0972
19. MEAT @ SLIMS - 147.3832
20. LITTLE CREEK BAR B CUE COMPANY - 146.8228
21. GRIM REAPER SMOKERS - 145.6572
22. MORNIN' WOOD LONG ISLAND - 145.1544
23. THAT'S OUR QUE - 144.5256
24. DAN'S TBD BBQ - 144.4916
25. MA'S 'QUE CREW - 139.9656
26. LATHAM HOUSE BBQ - 134.8344
27. PH PITTERS - 128.5028


Pork:
1. TRANSFORMER BBQ - 170.8800
2. FIRE & SPICE - 164.5600
3. THE BASIC BBQ TEAM - 163.4056
4. INSANE SWINE BBQ - 162.8456
5. BBQ MAFIA - 159.4744
6. THAT'S OUR QUE - 157.6800
7. STUBBORN BULL BBQ - 157.1200
8. FEEDING FRIENDZ - 155.9884
9. BLAZIN' BUTTZ BBQ - 155.9656
10. HERDING SMOKE - 154.8228
11. ZBQ - 153.1200
12. RED NECK CAVIAR - 153.1200
13. GOTHAM CITY GRILLERS - 152.5144
14. SMOKIN HOGGZ BBQ - MA - 152.5140
15. MEAT @ SLIMS - 151.9544
16. GRIM REAPER SMOKERS - 151.4172
17. DAN'S TBD BBQ - 150.8456
18. EASTERN BEAST BBQ TEAM - 149.1428
19. Q HAVEN - 148.5372
20. WHITE DOG BBQ - 148.0000
21. MORNIN' WOOD LONG ISLAND - 147.4284
22. PH PITTERS - 147.3484
23. LITTLE CREEK BAR B CUE COMPANY - 146.8684
24. TELL YOU WHAT BBQ - 132.5144
25. MA'S 'QUE CREW - 127.3256
26. MR. DIRT'S BBQ - 122.2856
27. LATHAM HOUSE BBQ - 114.0228


Brisket:
1. STUBBORN BULL BBQ - 169.7372
2. INSANE SWINE BBQ - 166.2744
3. Q HAVEN - 165.1316
4. ZBQ - 163.4172
5. SMOKIN HOGGZ BBQ - MA - 158.8112
6. FEEDING FRIENDZ - 157.0744
7. FIRE & SPICE - 155.9656
8. GRIM REAPER SMOKERS - 155.9544
9. MORNIN' WOOD LONG ISLAND - 148.0000
10. RED NECK CAVIAR - 147.9772
11. WHITE DOG BBQ - 147.9316
12. THE BASIC BBQ TEAM - 147.4172
13. GOTHAM CITY GRILLERS - 147.4172
14. HERDING SMOKE - 145.0856
15. TELL YOU WHAT BBQ - 143.9656
16. EASTERN BEAST BBQ TEAM - 143.3828
17. MA'S 'QUE CREW - 142.2860
18. THAT'S OUR QUE - 141.1200
19. PH PITTERS - 138.8688
20. MEAT @ SLIMS - 137.6800
21. TRANSFORMER BBQ - 137.0628
22. LATHAM HOUSE BBQ - 136.5372
23. DAN'S TBD BBQ - 136.0116
24. BBQ MAFIA - 135.9316
25. BLAZIN' BUTTZ BBQ - 135.8972
26. LITTLE CREEK BAR B CUE COMPANY - 134.2972
27. MR. DIRT'S BBQ - 127.9200

BBQ_MAFIA
08-11-2013, 07:46 AM
Congrats to FEEDING FRIENDZ (GC) and INSANE SWINE BBQ (RGC).
We had a great time in Medford. It was fun talking with some old friends and meeting new ones.

Special thanks to GRIM REAPER SMOKERS for the great Prime Rib dinner!
My son asked, if we could always be set up next to you for all future contests :clap: Thanks again.

Now if somebody can can show us how to cook Chicken and Brisket we will be OK:doh:

CBQ
08-11-2013, 07:48 AM
Congrats to everyone that got calls, and those advancing to the regional.

This was crazy scoring. According to Troy Black, it was the second lowest scoring contest in Sam's Club history. We got a 4th place rib call with a 154? Wow. GC of this event was a 642? I know I have talked about low scoring contests in the northeast "We have 4's and we aren't afraid to use them" but this is nuts even for the northeast.

Our 4th place ribs included a "6 5 5" score. Sure, that was the low score that got dropped, but you aren't thinking "top 5!" when you get a 6 5 5 on anything.

Big George's BBQ
08-11-2013, 08:39 AM
Congrats to all who walked

speedrcer1
08-11-2013, 09:24 AM
Yeah, I judged this, and as a cook first, I saw some crazy scoring.
I don't look at what other judges score. But I happened to see a couple.
I saw an okay box, a 7 or 8. The judge next to me scored it a 5. The next box was terrible. (Just a pile of pulled pork that looked grey) The same judge scored that a 6, higher than the first box.

timzcardz
08-12-2013, 07:33 AM
Now if somebody can can show us how to cook Chicken and Brisket we will be OK:doh:

I wouldn't try to read too much into the scores this weekend. There were some crazy ones. Taste/Tenderness can vary from piece to piece, but everyone sees, or at least should see, the exact same thing for appearance. I had one box that ranged from 5 to 9 in appearance with pretty much every score in between! I'm not saying that either one is right, but I know that they can't both be! That's just too much of a spread.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
08-12-2013, 08:54 AM
Congrats to all who walked!

A monster shout out to Fire and Spice, keep it up Eric ,Patrice and Sammy!

BogsBBQ
08-12-2013, 10:24 AM
Definitely some crazy scoring. We got Reserve with a bunch of 6s.

Congrats to everyone who got calls and to the other five teams that are advancing. The Northeast will be well represented.

BasicPatrick
08-12-2013, 10:58 AM
Congratulations to Feeding Friendz & Insane Swine. The Basic BBQ Team had a great time before, during and after the contest. We continue to get closer to putting all four into the top ten and hope we can achieve that goal in Chesapeake.

Yes the scoring reads as very odd. We had some of our worst scores of the season (and some of our best entries) but at least it looks like we were all judged on the same scale, even if that scale wasn't the norm. I have to wonder if the judges view the event as a big one and ramped up their expectations thus being very stingy with scores.

On another note, one team had the following pork box DQ'd for sculpting. As someone who works hard to have symmetry in my presentations this DQ is a bit scary. To be clear this is not my turn in but I have permission to show the pic of the box from the team that was DQ'd.

Cue's Your Daddy
08-12-2013, 11:00 AM
Our 4th place ribs included a "6 5 5" score. Sure, that was the low score that got dropped, but you aren't thinking "top 5!" when you get a 6 5 5 on anything.[/QUOTE]

Our first place ribs recieved a 6,7,5 from one judge, and we were on the same table as you :crazy:.....

Congrats to all who are moving on. We were lucky enough to get 6th place. My dad is so psyched about us going on to Virginia.
And big congrats to the Basic BBQ Team who on the Ferry ride over were told of the birth of a great grand daughter. That and a 4th place finish is pretty cool.

Goddahavit
08-12-2013, 11:07 AM
we had a 775 and 856 lol on 2 categories that we walked in... tough place ny i guess lol

As long as they are shared equally i guess it evens out, see you in va....

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
08-12-2013, 11:08 AM
Congratulations to Feeding Friendz & Insane Swine. The Basic BBQ Team had a great time before, during and after the contest. We continue to get closer to putting all four into the top ten and hope we can achieve that goal in Chesapeake.

Yes the scoring reads as very odd. We had some of our worst scores of the season (and some of our best entries) but at least it looks like we were all judged on the same scale, even if that scale wasn't the norm. I have to wonder if the judges view the event as a big one and ramped up their expectations thus being very stingy with scores.

On another note, one team had the following pork box DQ'd for sculpting. As someone who works hard to have symmetry in my presentations this DQ is a bit scary. To be clear this is not my turn in but I have permission to show the pic of the box from the team that was DQ'd.


why was it DQ'd? its no different from using the old ice cream scoop method that I instructor at the judging class I took mentioned.

Q Haven
08-12-2013, 11:51 AM
There is nothing there for me that would DQ that entry. Unless their team name is "Square Pork BBQ"

speedrcer1
08-12-2013, 12:21 PM
That pork came to my table. (I was not the one who called it out.)
I thought the appearance was a 5 or 6 and scored it before another judge called the table captain on it. Who called the rep over.
Mike Lake looked at it for about 10 seconds and declared it molded.
Technically, maybe yes, but I would have let it be judged on it's own.

BogsBBQ
08-12-2013, 01:03 PM
"All judges will give a one (1) in all criteria for sculptured meat..."

Are we sure this was a DQ? I'm not seeing a DQ score for any team on the pork results sheet.

BasicPatrick
08-12-2013, 01:53 PM
The team was Latham House BBQ and although I in no way want to carry a cross for this issue I do know the Pitmaster a bit and he told me about his experience.

He was informed of the DQ and had a conversation with the KCBS Rep as is the procedure. I assume that the score of 1 is applied to a multiplier thus there is score as shown on the sheet.

I posted the pic here as I use rulers etc to lay out my boxes and one of my focus points is to have a dead even uniform amount of garnish on all sides. This box has that done perfectly.

If I lay pork chunks or pulls in a perfect rectangle is that a DQ?
If I make my chicken thighs exactly the same shape is that a DQ?
If I trim my Brisket slices to be exactly the same sizes will that be a DQ?

This DQ scares the sheet out of me as a competitor.

Sledneck
08-12-2013, 02:01 PM
it's sculpting. very identifiable. besides it looks awful. I think I'd give it a 1or 2 without aruling . nothing about that makes me want to eat it.looks it was microwaved TV dinner that was flipped out on bed of parsley

Jacked UP BBQ
08-12-2013, 02:21 PM
That DQ is BULL**** and the reps should be ashamed of themselves. Are you going to tell me that they could tell what team that was by a square of pork????? I would have smashed the box of pork in the reps face! haha

BogsBBQ
08-12-2013, 02:23 PM
Their scores for pork are as follows...

Judge 1: 21.2000
Judge 2: 21.2000
Judge 3: 21.2000
Judge 4: 23.4972
Judge 5: 22.3428
Judge 6: 25.7828
Total: 114.0228

How is that a DQ when all judges are to score a 1 in all criteria?

Jacked UP BBQ
08-12-2013, 02:23 PM
Our 4th place ribs included a "6 5 5" score. Sure, that was the low score that got dropped, but you aren't thinking "top 5!" when you get a 6 5 5 on anything.

Our first place ribs recieved a 6,7,5 from one judge, and we were on the same table as you :crazy:.....

Congrats to all who are moving on. We were lucky enough to get 6th place. My dad is so psyched about us going on to Virginia.
And big congrats to the Basic BBQ Team who on the Ferry ride over were told of the birth of a great grand daughter. That and a 4th place finish is pretty cool.[/QUOTE]

Tell your Dad, congrats on his trip to Virginia. There will be naked women there welcoming him!

timzcardz
08-12-2013, 02:34 PM
I assume that the score of 1 is applied to a multiplier thus there is score as shown on the sheet.


All 1's would yield a weighted score of 20, not 114.

TheJackal
08-12-2013, 02:40 PM
All 1's would yield a weighted score of 20, not 114.

It's only 1's for appearance. Taste and tenderness are scored as usual.

speedrcer1
08-12-2013, 02:46 PM
Their scores for pork are as follows...

Judge 1: 21.2000
Judge 2: 21.2000
Judge 3: 21.2000
Judge 4: 23.4972
Judge 5: 22.3428
Judge 6: 25.7828
Total: 114.0228

How is that a DQ when all judges are to score a 1 in all criteria?
I was a judge at that table. We were told only to score a 1 for appearance and enter scores for taste, tenderness, by the rep.

BogsBBQ
08-12-2013, 02:49 PM
It's only 1's for appearance. Taste and tenderness are scored as usual.

"A score of one (1) is a disqualification and requires approval by a Contest Rep. Grounds for disqualification:

All judges will give a one (1) in Appearance for unapproved garnish, pooled sauce or less than 6 samples of meat. All judges will give a one (1) in all criteria for sculptured meat, a marked turn-in container, foreign object in the container, incorrect meat. All judges not receiving a sample will give a one (1) in all criteria."

timzcardz
08-12-2013, 02:57 PM
It's only 1's for appearance. Taste and tenderness are scored as usual.

I was a judge at that table. We were told only to score a 1 for appearance and enter scores for taste, tenderness, by the rep.


What am I missing? The rule states 1's for all criteria.

From the rules (bolding by me):

9) Meat shall not be sculptured, branded or presented in a
way to make it identifiable. Rosettes of meat slices are not
allowed. Violations of this rule will be scored a one (1) on all
criteria by all six judges.

speedrcer1
08-12-2013, 03:26 PM
Sounds to me like somebody oops'ed.

Cue's Your Daddy
08-12-2013, 03:45 PM
So speedracer you were at table 1. Judge 3 was a tough judge at that table. Seem to be the lowest scoring judge of the contest. didnt seem like he/she liked any entry.

speedrcer1
08-12-2013, 03:57 PM
So speedracer you were at table 1. Judge 3 was a tough judge at that table. Seem to be the lowest scoring judge of the contest. didnt seem like he/she liked any entry.

Yes, absolutely. I don't normally look at others scores, but at first he scored this box in question higher than a decent looking box with a verity of pork.
Besides the chef's score-sheet, is there anywhere to see the individual judges scores?
He was a nice guy. I don't know his background. He didn't complain too much.

Sledneck
08-12-2013, 04:00 PM
bar-b-drama

TheJackal
08-12-2013, 04:32 PM
What am I missing? The rule states 1's for all criteria.

From the rules (bolding by me):
[/LEFT]


I'm not saying it is right. Just saying that is what it looks like happened.

21.2 would be 1,6,6
23.4972 = 1,7,6
22.3428 = 1,6,7
25.7828 = 1,7,8

Judge 1: 21.2000
Judge 2: 21.2000
Judge 3: 21.2000
Judge 4: 23.4972
Judge 5: 22.3428
Judge 6: 25.7828
Total: 114.0228

blackeyedpig
08-12-2013, 04:32 PM
I am the pitmaster of that sorry a**ed box and thought I'd chime in. First, I'd like to thank Patrick, I wouldn't have posted this myself but don't mind talking about it. Our pork came out over done and we couldn't get any good slices, hence the box of pulled. We decided to make the square shape not knowing that it was against the rules, we certainly didn't want to circumvent the concept of blind judging. After Mike Lake told me that we'd received a DQ for appearance he told me that he knew we weren't trying to tip anyone off and Troy Black told me the same thing. I asked if I could appeal and was told I could take it up with the KCBS Board. I have no intention of doing this, I'm taking my lumps and looking to do better next time.

As to whether I deserved to get 1's for the entire entry I can't speak to this but since I already finished DAL I guess it really can't get any worse.

Still had a great time, met some great folks and plan to be back again.

And as if all this wasn't enough we got pulled over at the entrance to the Queen's Midtown Tunnel and asked to open our van. The let us go pretty quickly but the cops did tell me I was the second team they had stopped coming from Medford, I'm thinking BBQ Mafia but I could be wrong.

TheJackal
08-12-2013, 04:36 PM
And as if all this wasn't enough we got pulled over at the entrance to the Queen's Midtown Tunnel and asked to open our van. The let us go pretty quickly but the cops did tell me I was the second team they had stopped coming from Medford, I'm thinking BBQ Mafia but I could be wrong.

Don't sweat this part. They are just making sure no propane goes into the tunnel.

CBQ
08-12-2013, 04:53 PM
That pork came to my table. (I was not the one who called it out.)
I thought the appearance was a 5 or 6 and scored it before another judge called the table captain on it. Who called the rep over.
Mike Lake looked at it for about 10 seconds and declared it molded.
Technically, maybe yes, but I would have let it be judged on it's own.

There's no doubt it was molded. There is no doubt it makes for kind of an ugly pork box. :becky: (next time blackeyedpig, just pile it in there - but not like I did in the next post :becky: ) I don't get that it would be a DQ though.

My understanding is that the purpose of the rule is to prevent teams from turning in something that would indicate which team submitted it. I mean we couldn't turn in pork that formed a giant "Z" in the box, right?

Mike Lake is a very experienced rep (and a former KCBS president), so I'm sure he knows the ins and outs of this much better than I do, but I'm kind of surprised its a DQ.

CBQ
08-12-2013, 05:14 PM
I almost got a DQ in 2008 for sculpting. The table captain called the rep over for a review. The rep determined it wasn't intentional, so we didn't get the DQ. We were, however, warned later that it was close to it. It is also one ugly ass box, and we did finish DAL in the category anyway.

Even if the rep doesn't DQ it, the fact that someone calls the rep kind of kills your score. (Yes, we also killed it ourselves. It was our 4th contest and we had no idea what we were doing. The 5th contest we cleaned up the box and finished 3rd in pork.)

Behold the DAL pork box:

boogiesnap
08-12-2013, 05:16 PM
that DQ is a joke.

i hope someone in some form of KCBS authority can explain the reasoning.

(unless as written prior, the team name is square pork pile BBQ, which it is not)

blackeyedpig
08-12-2013, 06:32 PM
Mike Lake was adamant that it was molding and that his decision was final unless I wanted to take it to the board which I'm not going to do. Troy Black said to me that if he was going to show someone a picture of what a "molded" box looked like he would use my box.

Sledneck
08-12-2013, 08:11 PM
Im curious for those in this thread that are saying that it was a bad call and questioning mike lake. Have any of you ever turned in an entry like that?

BasicPatrick
08-12-2013, 08:45 PM
Sled, I in no way am challenging the experience or even judgment of Mike Lake..even considering my classic Boston attitude that would be a bit funny (read=insane). I posted this because I obvioulsy do not understand a rule that I thought I understood and as I suspected by this thread I am not the only one.

The beauty of this forum is that we can discuss and share our thoughts and experience....aka LEARN.

I think this box is proof there is a grey area between making an appealing presentation and crossing the line to break the rule in question.

I have never put just pulled in a box so my answer to your question is no.

I have and frequently do place meat in the box where an outside say half inch border garnish conforms to the shape of the box and the rest is pretty much all meat.

This box has inspired the following questions in my rookie mind:

Is cooking chicken in a muffin tin so they are all perfectly uniform sculpting?

Is laying 4 over 4 ribs with the top and bottom edge dead ass even and pretty much covering the exact same square as the pork box in question sculpting?

Is laying a MM on the diagonal and filling in the obvious triangles in each corner of the box with pulls, uniform chunks or even neatly formed piles of chopped molding?

Is trimming brisket slices to all be 8 inches or cutting burnt ends exactly the same shape and laying them out to cover the exact same square as the pork box in question sculpting?

If a perfect square of meat in a square box is sculpting I should be DQ'd on a regular basis.

So the point is where is the line for breaking the rule? Maybe its not the square shape but the seemingly flat shaped plateau or third dimention that crossed the line.

I would just like to understand the rule better so I can not put my thousand dollar investment in a competition weekend in jeapordy.

CBQ
08-12-2013, 09:00 PM
Im curious for those in this thread that are saying that it was a bad call and questioning mike lake. Have any of you ever turned in an entry like that?

The rule, as written, says no sculpting, and it was clearly sculpted. After thinking about it more, I agree Mike made the right call.

I think people generally interpret the rule to mean "you can't do anything in the box that could identify the team", and a square isn't unique enough to do that. People are questioning that, but that isn't what the rule actually says.

Patrick, I think it's like the legal system. When the law has gaps, the courts clarify the law. Common practices and rep advisories provide the clarity. Most of the instances you cite are commonly used. Muffin pan chicken is not going to DQ you, and neither is carefully placed meat. I bet you couldn't make that shape with your ruler and your tweezers...not in the time you have anyway. It was done with a box mold.

blackeyedpig
08-12-2013, 09:44 PM
actually it was done by hand with a spatula, we don't own a box mold.

BasicPatrick
08-13-2013, 01:00 AM
Chris you are making my point....

I could acheive many shapes including a basic square using a mold or a putty knife or a slicing knife or a ruler or many other tools. The tool used can't be the point where the rule is violated, that would not be enforceable nor realistic.

Even if the shape was done with a pan (the pitmaster says it was a spatula) then are you stating that to mold aka sculpt aka manipulate the shape of a chicken thigh with a pan is legal but to mold or sculpt pork post cooking is illegal? If this is what you are stating then are you making the case that the fact it is done after cooking violates the rule?

If that is the case then as I stated earlier; most of us manipulate shape aka sculpt aka mold all meats post cook as in trimming the brisket slice, burnt end, money muscle, horn muscle, slicing ribs to length and thickness etc etc etc.

My point and overall question remains....IS there any direction/experience/language instructing cooks on the point where clearly allowed manipulation of the shape of the meat becomes a violation of the rule? There must be some language somewhere? No?

I get that this a bit like the age old old debate about how to define pornography...I know it when I see it but its hard to define in writing.....(:>)

BBQ_MAFIA
08-13-2013, 07:21 AM
YUP...... We got pulled over too.
I'm OK with it and feel safer knowing that they are on the job.

Stop by and say hello if you see us at another comp. We will be sure to do the same.

Now back to the Pork Box.........


And as if all this wasn't enough we got pulled over at the entrance to the Queen's Midtown Tunnel and asked to open our van. The let us go pretty quickly but the cops did tell me I was the second team they had stopped coming from Medford, I'm thinking BBQ Mafia but I could be wrong.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
08-13-2013, 07:24 AM
I took the KCBS judging class in 2009 and the rep in charged said he liked when a team uses an ice cream scoop to for their pulled pork for a nice appearance. Is this really any different? I the ice cream scoop is a mold, right?

boogiesnap
08-13-2013, 07:45 AM
The rule, as written, says no sculpting, and it was clearly sculpted. After thinking about it more, I agree Mike made the right call.

I think people generally interpret the rule to mean "you can't do anything in the box that could identify the team", and a square isn't unique enough to do that. People are questioning that, but that isn't what the rule actually says.

Patrick, I think it's like the legal system. When the law has gaps, the courts clarify the law. Common practices and rep advisories provide the clarity. Most of the instances you cite are commonly used. Muffin pan chicken is not going to DQ you, and neither is carefully placed meat. I bet you couldn't make that shape with your ruler and your tweezers...not in the time you have anyway. It was done with a box mold.

the rule doers NOT say no sculpting. it reads no SCULPTURING....to make it IDENTIFIABLE. i don't think a square pile is identifiable.

and sled, no, i don't turn in cat food. sorry blackeye. :redface:

even in my KCBS judging class 3 perfect ice cream scoop portions were presented in a box, and not as an example of a DQ.

mike had his reasons, i'm sure, but as the rule is written(there is very little "interpretation" on this one)what were they?

CBQ
08-13-2013, 08:36 AM
the rule doers NOT say no sculpting. it reads no SCULPTURING....to make it identifiable. i don't think a square pile is identifiable

I am not sure how sculpting and sculpturing are any different. It's forming meat. It's identifiable if it's so unique nobody else is doing it.

Even if the shape was done with a pan (the pitmaster says it was a spatula) then are you stating that to mold aka sculpt aka manipulate the shape of a chicken thigh with a pan is legal but to mold or sculpt pork post cooking is illegal?

The rule says:

Meat shall not be sculptured, branded or presented in a
way to make it identifiable.

I thought it was a box mold. I guess blackeyedpig is just damn good with a spatula.

I guess the rep thought it was too unique. I know it's a square, but you don't see many pork turn ins like that. Lots of people turn in round muffin shaped chicken.

It's a judgement call, and therefore subjective. If every team was turning in pork squares, it would be an accepted standard. A neat well organized box will not get you DQ'd, but something that is truly different will. Everyone is looking for an edge, but taste and tenderness rule. If you do someone too far out of the box (or in this case make a box :becky:) it won't work because it's easy for judges to be on the lookout for a specific box.

scm1226
08-13-2013, 08:42 AM
[QUOTE=CBQ;2587088] Lots of people turn in round muffin shaped chicken. QUOTE]
Then the first person to do muffin chicken was DQ'd??
Bad box yes, identifiable? No. The team wanted a uniform turn in. I would be pissed to get a DQ from that. Our first couple of contests when we did only pulled in the box we used small bowls to make six matching piles in our box. Should that have been a DQ?
Obviously we have learned from our limited experience.
Live and learn I guess but still question identifiable part of the sculpting.

boogiesnap
08-13-2013, 09:31 AM
I am not sure how sculpting and sculpturing are any different. It's forming meat. It's identifiable if it's so unique nobody else is doing it.



The rule says:

Meat shall not be sculptured, branded or presented in a
way to make it identifiable.

I thought it was a box mold. I guess blackeyedpig is just damn good with a spatula.

I guess the rep thought it was too unique. I know it's a square, but you don't see many pork turn ins like that. Lots of people turn in round muffin shaped chicken.

It's a judgement call, and therefore subjective. If every team was turning in pork squares, it would be an accepted standard. A neat well organized box will not get you DQ'd, but something that is truly different will. Everyone is looking for an edge, but taste and tenderness rule. If you do someone too far out of the box (or in this case make a box :becky:) it won't work because it's easy for judges to be on the lookout for a specific box.

the difference is all boxes are sculpted:

sculpt (sklpt)
v. sculpt·ed, sculpt·ing, sculpts
v.tr.
1. To sculpture (an object).
2. To shape, mold, or fashion especially with artistry or precision:

to continue on and sculpture the meat in a way that it is identifiable is another matter.

i still do not see how a pile of pork is identifiable to this team at this contest.

CBQ
08-13-2013, 10:04 AM
i still do not see how a pile of pork is identifiable to this team at this contest.

If you knew a judge in the contest, and said "hey, we are going to turn in a big pork square, be on the lookout for it", it is pretty easy to pick out.

To Patrick's point..if you said "hey we are going to turn in a really precise brisket box with all the slices being the same size", I think judges wouldn't be able to pick that out, at least they couldn't be 100% sure whose box it was.

MikeR
08-13-2013, 10:33 AM
I think if you knew a judge you could make it easy enough for them to identify a box. Parsley vs. lettuce/ burnt ends on top/bottom/down the side. Just a couple of examples, where there's a will there's a way. Now how do I make sure the box lands on his table?:wink:

boogiesnap
08-13-2013, 10:50 AM
If you knew a judge in the contest, and said "hey, we are going to turn in a big pork square, be on the lookout for it", it is pretty easy to pick out.

To Patrick's point..if you said "hey we are going to turn in a really precise brisket box with all the slices being the same size", I think judges wouldn't be able to pick that out, at least they couldn't be 100% sure whose box it was.

i'll concede this as true, but still.

timzcardz
08-13-2013, 10:55 AM
If you knew a judge in the contest, and said "hey, we are going to turn in a big pork square, be on the lookout for it", it is pretty easy to pick out.


In two contests now, for brisket I've turned in only burnt ends with green leaf lettuce garnish.

How often does that happen?

Should I have been DQ'd for it?



The bigger concern to me, is that apparently (based on comments from the judges at the table) the same person/rep that subjectively passed judgeement on the box to DQ it, then misapplied the most objective and unambiquous aspect of the rule and had it judged for taste and tenderness. Taking individuals out of it, and looking at it objectively, should the judgement of the person be trusted if they can't follow the most specific part of the rule?

Muzzlebrake
08-13-2013, 11:07 AM
This is definately an interesting topic. Just to be clear and not being a smart ash the rules referenced for this DQ are;

2013 Rules and Regulations paragraph number nine;

"9) Meat shall not be sculptured, branded or presented in a way to make it identifiable. Rosettes of meat slices are not allowed. Violations of this rule will be scored a one (1) on all criteria by all six judges."

JUDGING PROCEDURES, paragraph number five

"5) A score of one (1) is a disqualification and requires approval by a Contest Rep. Grounds for disqualification: All judges will give a one (1) in Appearance for unapproved garnish, pooled sauce or less than 6 samples of meat. All judges will give a one (1) in all criteria for sculptured meat, a marked turn-in container, foreign object in the container, incorrect meat. All judges not receiving a sample will give a one (1) in all criteria."

Have I missed any other reference?

Jacked UP BBQ
08-13-2013, 11:47 AM
Sled I am challenging Mike Lake, I think it was a pathetic DQ, it was not identifiable to any certain team. You have seen my pork presentations, they are more identifiable than that. That is a sorry ass DQ, that is why I steered away from the sams club events. Congrats to all the teams who advanced, but a real shame a team got DQ'd for a square pork box, I guess round is the only shape.

Jacked UP BBQ
08-13-2013, 11:48 AM
So how does muffin pan chicken not get DQ'd?

ShencoSmoke
08-13-2013, 02:17 PM
What about leg quarters, is that in the grey area of "identifiable"? I'm guessing a small percentage of teams compete with them so by nature they are identifiable because they are not common. Even more so if they are all right or left legs quarters.

Sledneck
08-13-2013, 03:26 PM
Sled I am challenging Mike Lake, I think it was a pathetic DQ, it was not identifiable to any certain team. You have seen my pork presentations, they are more identifiable than that. That is a sorry ass DQ, that is why I steered away from the sams club events. Congrats to all the teams who advanced, but a real shame a team got DQ'd for a square pork box, I guess round is the only shape.all the sudden since the 180
on Saturday you want to protect your 6 round piles o finely chopped pork pfffft

boogiesnap
08-13-2013, 08:56 PM
i psh your pffft.

North Is Up
08-13-2013, 10:55 PM
From the 2013 KCBS Contest Rep Advisory:

2.06 Sculpting Meat & Marking Containers
Question: Why do the rules prohibit sculpting the meat and marking the container, and how do I deal with it?
Opinion: The KCBS utilizes a blind judging system to help prevent collusion by a team and judges. The rule is to prevent cooks from making an entry so unique that a judge could easily recognize an entry from certain identifying characteristics. Webster definition of sculpture is “(a) to form an image or representation of from solid material; (b) to carve or otherwise form into a three dimensional “work of art.”
The key words here are UNIQUE and FORM. Simply to arrange the meat in a container doesn’t violate any rule. To arrange the meat in a unique pattern or to form (carve) the meat into a pattern would be a violation of the rule. Entries not complying with the rule will be given a “1” for APPEARANCE, a “1” for TASTE, and a “1” for TENDERNESS/TEXTURE.
This rule calls for a subjective opinion on the part of the KCBS Rep. Any doubt about this rule should be in the favor of the cook. Rule “1” gives the KCBS Rep broad authority to interpret the rules while at any contest. February 17, 2006

2.07 Molding of Pork Entries
Question: For sanitary purposes, cooks are allowed to use an ice cream scoop for their pork presentation. Can they use a plastic cup as the utensil to form their entry for turn in?
Opinion: Yes. This is not considered marking.
Approved by KCBS Board of Directors, May 12, 2009

Then, of course, there's the, "I know it when I see it" rule.

BasicPatrick
08-14-2013, 06:20 AM
Wow...that rep advisory makes i even more grey for me. I definately carve three dimentions of a chicken thigh, pork butt & brisket slices. I only carve 2 dimentions of ribs.

Do most of us at least agree that the DQ was not executed correctly as the taste and tenderness were scored and should not have been.

Hawg Father of Seoul
08-14-2013, 06:47 AM
Sorry if I am wrong, but IF he DQ'd it, isn't he wrong for not having them mark 1's in every category? This is an honest question.

Sorry this is the same question as above me. Still want it answered.

Not to mention that it is no different than 6 scoops of pulled.

timzcardz
08-14-2013, 07:06 AM
From the 2013 KCBS Contest Rep Advisory:

2.07 Molding of Pork Entries
Question: For sanitary purposes, cooks are allowed to use an ice cream scoop for their pork presentation. Can they use a plastic cup as the utensil to form their entry for turn in?
Opinion: Yes. This is not considered marking.
Approved by KCBS Board of Directors, May 12, 2009




More confused than before.

So is the advisory saying that "Molding" is not "Marking", and is permitted?

Sawdustguy
08-14-2013, 08:31 AM
Gents,

This is not the first time a Rep has screwed up and DQ'ed a turn-in unnecessarily. Our world famous in Long Island BBQ chicken was DQ'ed because they said it was fried. Afterwards we got an apology from the Reps but it still costed us. I am surprised that the Reps do not stay current on the rules.

Hawg Father of Seoul
08-14-2013, 09:12 AM
I am way more concerned that they don' t know how to handle a DQ.