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Candy Sue
07-25-2013, 02:06 PM
Help KCBS work out a comment card solution!

All thoughts and <uh> comments welcome

Vince RnQ
07-25-2013, 02:12 PM
Since the goal of teams not knowing their alternate number has been realized with KCBScore, comment cards will have to either be redacted so as to keep the alternate number hidden from the teams or another means of tracking will have to be instituted.

I don't see the process of redacting as being very laboreous once the cards have been attached to the proper score sheet. Total cost = 1 Permanant Black Magic Marker and 5 minutes of the Rep's time.

nucornhusker
07-25-2013, 02:12 PM
If judges used them if they scored you low, it would be fantastic.

Comment cards for good are also very helpful.

jaestar
07-25-2013, 02:18 PM
I can't say that I am 100&#37; up to speed on the issue, but I thought I read that it is because you don't want the cooks to know their secondary/alternate number. Couldn't you make a pad that had a perforated portion on it that the judge could put the secondary number on, Below the perforated area would be the comment card area and a spot for the rep to put the primary team number in. I'm thinking something similar to the order pads that restaurants use (similar to the link below).

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/255466571/GUEST_CHECK_RESTAURANT_DOCKET_BOOK_WAITER.html

Arlin_MacRae
07-25-2013, 02:25 PM
Candy Sue, are you asking this of competitors, judges, or both?

Ron_L
07-25-2013, 02:39 PM
If the comment card has helpful information, then I find it helpful. :-D

What I mean is that most of the comment cards I have received have been either vague or useless. A comment like "The portion was too stingy" is useless. (Yeah, that was an actual comment card received by a friend on his chicken turn in).

Vince RnQ
07-25-2013, 02:48 PM
In 2011, the KCBS Rules Committee suggested that comment cards be modified so that there were check boxes that said things like:

Too Salty
Too Sweet
Too Spicey
Under Seasoned
Off Flavor
Over Cooked
Under Cooked

This idea was never addressed to the best of my knowledge but it sure seemed like a very good improvement to those of us on the committee.

cpw
07-25-2013, 02:53 PM
In 2011, the KCBS Rules Committee suggested that comment cards be modified so that there were check boxes that said things like:

Too Salty
Too Sweet
Too Spicey
Under Seasoned
Off Flavor
Over Cooked
Under Cooked

This idea was never addressed to the best of my knowledge but it sure seemed like a very good improvement to those of us on the committee.

Sounds like a great idea to me.

Podge
07-25-2013, 02:57 PM
I've only had one comment card, and it was extremely helpful!!.. I'd love to see them still used. I don't understand why their use would be (or is) cancelled since they are an option?

Bentley
07-25-2013, 03:03 PM
I guess I would 1st need to know what the existing issues are that are creating the problems?

Help KCBS work out a comment card solution!

bigdogphin
07-25-2013, 03:04 PM
In 2011, the KCBS Rules Committee suggested that comment cards be modified so that there were check boxes that said things like:

Too Salty
Too Sweet
Too Spicey
Under Seasoned
Off Flavor
Over Cooked
Under Cooked

This idea was never addressed to the best of my knowledge but it sure seemed like a very good improvement to those of us on the committee.

All those comments are negative... Is there a worry that a judge will look at those and grade you down based on those comments instead of judging what is actually presented and their actual first impression.

bbq.tom
07-25-2013, 03:15 PM
Hance (Lake Dogs) designed a comment card with pre-populated comments that could be checked off to indicate the situation - both good and bad. Sure would great to see his idea again!

If you listen to the July BOD meeting you will know/understand the concerns over the comment cards and how the REPS efforts would increase to make them work.

deguerre
07-25-2013, 03:22 PM
Candy Sue, are you asking this of competitors, judges, or both?


All thoughts and <uh> comments welcome

Sounds pretty all inclusive to me Arlin. It would even seem to be an invite to some idiot like me.

Personally, as said above, I would appreciate valid commentary. Helpful criticism is useful. Knowing what you did right, according to a judge, would be useful too. Critiques I've been to, and suffered through (Artists can get downright mean when being direct), conducted by the professionals and your peers, were an invaluable learning tool.

Arlin_MacRae
07-25-2013, 03:23 PM
Recommend, again, someone takes a look at the Beer Judging (BJCP) scoresheets for some ideas.

Outnumbered
07-25-2013, 03:29 PM
Candy, first I commend you for asking the question. I'm sure you realize the potential this has for going south in a hurry and I am hopeful people will keep that in mind and keep things respectful as they respond.

I would love to get comment cards, but in my 10 contests I have not received a single card. I would love to get them for the 6s, the 9s and even the 7s and 8s.

The thing that concerns me is it seems the judges are told if they score below a 6, they have to fill out a card. In my limited experience of judging 1 contest, it seems that judges won't score below a 6 because they can't or won't justify why they don't like something or even do.

I like the idea of having pre set comments on the card. That would provide the cooks a little more feedback, but also give the judges something to base their comments on while speeding up the process of commenting. If you could come up with a way to make that workable, they should be mandatory for every entry regardless of the score.

Arlin_MacRae
07-25-2013, 03:33 PM
Candy, first I commend you for asking the question. I'm sure you realize the potential this has for going south in a hurry and I am hopeful people will keep that in mind and keep things respectful as they respond.

Good call Greg.
Blue hat time...

:mod:
All,
Please take this opportunity to help the KCBS better their comment card by offering helpful criticism and advice. This is not to be a dumping ground for your past problems. Candy Sue has asked us for help - let's show her how the Brethren represent.
Thanks,

Arlin
:mod:

Harbormaster
07-25-2013, 03:41 PM
Like Ron_L said, if there is helpful information on the card, then the card is helpful.

The first comment card I received was for my chicken turn in at my first comp. It read "Perfect bite through skin". Normally, that would be very helpful except that we pulled the skin off of the thighs before saucing to make the chicken marginally edible.

gettinbasted
07-25-2013, 03:57 PM
Candy, first I commend you for asking the question. I'm sure you realize the potential this has for going south in a hurry and I am hopeful people will keep that in mind and keep things respectful as they respond.

I would love to get comment cards, but in my 10 contests I have not received a single card. I would love to get them for the 6s, the 9s and even the 7s and 8s.

The thing that concerns me is it seems the judges are told if they score below a 6, they have to fill out a card. In my limited experience of judging 1 contest, it seems that judges won't score below a 6 because they can't or won't justify why they don't like something or even do.

I like the idea of having pre set comments on the card. That would provide the cooks a little more feedback, but also give the judges something to base their comments on while speeding up the process of commenting. If you could come up with a way to make that workable, they should be mandatory for every entry regardless of the score.

Almost like a judging "wizard". Just a few check boxes on a perforated pad.

rolfejr
07-25-2013, 05:03 PM
Yes!
Mandatory on scores below six and the pre-set comments would really help a cook dial in a bit quicker.

Vince RnQ
07-25-2013, 05:41 PM
All those comments are negative... Is there a worry that a judge will look at those and grade you down based on those comments instead of judging what is actually presented and their actual first impression.


I only listed an example of some of the possible constructive criticisms that could be included as checkboxes. We felt it would be necessary to have both critical and complimentary options available in addition to a few blank lines where a judge could add their own handwritten comments.

The majority of complaints regarding comment cards seems to be that the critical comments themselves often do not point out anything specific that a cook could find helpful and focus them toward an improvement.

Very few people complain about complimentary comment cards because, let's face it, when someone writes something like "Best rib I've ever eaten!", who needs more details?!?

Examples of complimentary comments could be things like:

Excellent Texture
Balanced Seasoning
Great Appearance
Brisk-a-Licious
Rib-Tastic

...just to name a few!

Meat Man
07-25-2013, 05:46 PM
I have found the comment cards I have gotten to be helpful, most of the time. I think that what ever would make it simple and quick (check Boxes) for the judges would be ideal.

Rich Parker
07-25-2013, 05:49 PM
I vote YES for comment cards. This is my favorite!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/913910_535344836524904_918882407_o.jpg

scm1226
07-25-2013, 06:02 PM
I would love comment cards , got a 5 in taste a few weeks ago, first 5 ever. No comment card. This judge gave us the only 5 out of the two 8s and two 7s. O well hopeful I won't get a five again.

Smoke'n Ice
07-25-2013, 06:24 PM
Since the goal of teams not knowing their alternate number has been realized with KCBScore, comment cards will have to either be redacted so as to keep the alternate number hidden from the teams or another means of tracking will have to be instituted.

I don't see the process of redacting as being very laboreous once the cards have been attached to the proper score sheet. Total cost = 1 Permanant Black Magic Marker and 5 minutes of the Rep's time.

I am all in favor of the comment cards as is a concensus majority of the BOD. The only problem that I see is, the BOD member who is in charge of finding a solution, is against them in the first place and voted so. His job, as I understand it, is to form a committee and try to effect a solution. I think that ice water, cold day in Phoenix, etc. come to mind. We'll see.

Outnumbered
07-25-2013, 06:55 PM
Almost like a judging "wizard". Just a few check boxes on a perforated pad.

YES! Answers the question of consistency, but allows for personal tastes to enter the equation.

DepChief22
07-25-2013, 08:23 PM
For us being new to competition it is very helpful to us to have the comment card. We have no idea on what to improve on. We have to shoot from the hip.

JD McGee
07-25-2013, 08:55 PM
We find them very helpful over the course of the season sort of a barometer of how our meats are fairing in the long run. The occasional "off the wall" comment is usually worth a laugh or a few cuss words...lol!

Balls Casten
07-25-2013, 09:33 PM
I vote YES for comment cards. This is my favorite!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/913910_535344836524904_918882407_o.jpg

Alright rich ....
U received a 78& .... With a good comment .... Do you change anything

Q-Dat
07-25-2013, 09:44 PM
In 2011, the KCBS Rules Committee suggested that comment cards be modified so that there were check boxes that said things like:

Too Salty
Too Sweet
Too Spicey
Under Seasoned
Off Flavor
Over Cooked
Under Cooked

This idea was never addressed to the best of my knowledge but it sure seemed like a very good improvement to those of us on the committee.



THIS! THIS! THIS! THIS! THIS! THIS! THIS!

If sonething along the lines were put into place and made mandatory for scores 7 and below, I might be moved enough to purchase a LIFETIME KCBS MEMBERSHIP!!!

Muzzlebrake
07-25-2013, 09:52 PM
I like the comment cards, I think :becky:I think that a well written informative card for either a good or bad entry provides the cook with valuable information.

I also think they can be used as a way to provide valuable information about judges and what their thought process may be and provide for more accountability.

Are the cards reviewed by the Table Captains and reps before the teams get them?

Rookie'48
07-26-2013, 12:56 AM
I'm going to say that I'm in favor of the "voluntary" comment cards. If we make it mandatory for a card on any score lower than, say, a 7 then we will end up with a three number scoring system - 7, 8 and 9. Some judges don't want to fill them out, think that it's too much trouble, won't change anything, etc.

Personally if I give you a 6 or lower I want to tell you why. A 6 by itself won't kill you but two of them ruins your day. Shouldn't you know why I felt that I needed to say that your food was "average" or less?

And we all know that "average" food isn't going to win any prizes :shock:.

Slamdunkpro
07-26-2013, 07:29 AM
If sonething along the lines were put into place and made mandatory for scores 7 and below, my score cards would all look like 888 888 888 888 888 888
Fixed your post for ya:mrgreen:

Arlin_MacRae
07-26-2013, 08:25 AM
I'm with Dave: A 6 or under definitely gets a card. And I hate to say it but I agree about judges not wanting to fill them out if they're too "hard". Jean and I would, but the vast majority? I doubt it. Then you have a new system that doesn't work as well as the old...

Big Darb
07-26-2013, 08:35 AM
My team has yet to receive a card (and certainly not because we're so good in all four meats). IMHO, make prepopulated checkbox cards as others have discussed to make them quick and easy and then make them mandatory regardless of score. You can always include a couple lines for optional comment if the judge wants to go into additional detail. If a judge can't describe why they did or didn't like an entry then they probably shouldn't be judging. If the comment cards are well thought out they could even help judges be better judges without resulting in nothing but 8s.

Q-Dat
07-26-2013, 08:47 AM
Fixed your post for ya:mrgreen:

Well then lets make them mandatory no matter the score. If a judge refuses, then they obviously don't take the task of judging seriously.

Slamdunkpro
07-26-2013, 08:51 AM
Well then lets make them mandatory no matter the score. If a judge refuses, then they obviously don't take the task of judging seriously.
I'm with ya on this. Move turn ins to one hour apart (starting at 11) so that judges have time to evaluate and properly comment on each entry.

Arlin_MacRae
07-26-2013, 08:56 AM
I'm with ya on this. Move turn ins to one hour apart (starting at 11) so that judges have time to evaluate and properly comment on each entry.
Now there's a thought!

Q-Dat
07-26-2013, 09:00 AM
I'm with ya on this. Move turn ins to one hour apart (starting at 11) so that judges have time to evaluate and properly comment on each entry.

Now we're talkin! But I have a feeling that the move to one hour betwen turn ins would meet more resistance than mandatory comments.

columbia1
07-26-2013, 09:52 AM
We spend most of our time cooking at PNWBA contests(we have very few KCBS events up here), under PNWBA every judge gives a comment card for all four meats. I have found them extremely valuable in upping my game(note, about 25&#37; of them are useless comments). When cooking at KCBS, you never quite know why you received those bad scores. We also have hour turn-ins so the judges can get those comments put together.(I do like the hour turn-ins)

dhuffjr
07-26-2013, 10:12 AM
I like comment cards, I think they should be encouraged. We had success making changes based on a card. As far as the team number issue. You can read through many permanent markers depending on the print underneath. A better approach is to allow space at the bottom of the card and have the reps cut the bottom of the card off removing the team number.

I don't know if I like spacing out turn in times as much as it could make things easier. If you take the crazy insanity of the small turn in window you remove a lot of what makes this thing we do so much fun.....and insane.

billygbob
07-26-2013, 10:40 AM
I'm with Dave: A 6 or under definitely gets a card. And I hate to say it but I agree about judges not wanting to fill them out if they're too "hard". Jean and I would, but the vast majority? I doubt it. Then you have a new system that doesn't work as well as the old...

What comment would you expect for an average/6? "It was average"? "It could have been better"? Are you looking for the judge to tell you how you should have cooked? Judges are instructed to not do that in comments.

billygbob
07-26-2013, 10:45 AM
I'm with ya on this. Move turn ins to one hour apart (starting at 11) so that judges have time to evaluate and properly comment on each entry.

I see (way too many) judges finish scoring six entries in less than five minutes. I doubt more time between turn ins is going to change things for/from them.

Edited to add: I like that more Reps are requiring all judges to stay at the table until they are all done judging. Unfortunately, I haven't seen that make the "speed judges" take any more time actually judging the entries.

Smitty250
07-26-2013, 11:21 AM
I like comment cards but they are only as good as the judge! Last comp I turned in 8 slices of brisket flat - no burnt ends and all slices from same brisket. I received 2 commet cards. First one said Great flavor but under cooked, Second one said No Flavor and over cooked!

The Judge who said it was under cooked needs some serious re-training! That brisket needed some duck tape to hold it together!!

Rich Parker
07-26-2013, 11:28 AM
Alright rich ....
U received a 78& .... With a good comment .... Do you change anything

No way! If this judge thinks that an excellent rib should be scored an 8 for taste and an 8 for tenderness I am completely ok with that as long as they judge all entries in that manner. Yes, I would have liked an 99 for it but what can you do.

This is my favorite comment because it is the only one I have received that was positive.

Rich Parker
07-26-2013, 11:35 AM
I like comment cards but they are only as good as the judge! Last comp I turned in 8 slices of brisket flat - no burnt ends and all slices from same brisket. I received 2 commet cards. First one said Great flavor but under cooked, Second one said No Flavor and over cooked!

The Judge who said it was under cooked needs some serious re-training! That brisket needed some duck tape to hold it together!!

Problem with that comment is that the judge is trying to tell you how to cook it which no cook likes to hear. Judges should comment on the entry and not try to guess on what the cook did or didn't do.

DawgPhan
07-26-2013, 12:23 PM
I love that most of you are 100&#37; certainly how 1000's of judges would respond to a change in the judging procedure. The reality is that anyone saying that mandatory comment cards would result in judges only giving out score above the cut have no clue how the judges would respond to the change.

Comment cards could be valuable for cooks, but also for KCBS to learn more about how judges score. That information could be used to identify areas where the actual methods used to judge are deviating from the intended method as described by KCBS.

Judges that would respond to the comment card by caring less about the scores they give dont need to be judging. KCBS should be actively working to root out those judges and make sure that they are not damaging the integrity of their contests.

Arlin_MacRae
07-26-2013, 12:35 PM
What comment would you expect for an average/6? "It was average"? "It could have been better"? Are you looking for the judge to tell you how you should have cooked? Judges are instructed to not do that in comments.Well, for one, I don't expect comment cards, I give them. A six is miles from a nine and the team deserves to know why I marked them down. Just telling them their six was "average" or their four was "poor" helps nobody. I tell them exactly what's wrong with it. Undercooked, overcooked, gray in color, etc.

I see (way too many) judges finish scoring six entries in less than five minutes. I doubt more time between turn ins is going to change things for/from them.

Edited to add: I like that more Reps are requiring all judges to stay at the table until they are all done judging. Unfortunately, I haven't seen that make the "speed judges" take any more time actually judging the entries.You say you haven't "seen" the speed judges take any more time judging their samples... I'm curious, are you one of those guys who lines up to watch the judges through a window or tent flap? Those guys creep me out! :laugh: Honestly, you're as likely to get rid of poor judges as you are cooks who cheat. Ain't happening. The good judges (and there are far more of those than poor ones, in my experience) take the newbies under their wings and teach them how to judge right. The poor judges couldn't be bothered to teach anyone anything.

Candy Sue
07-26-2013, 01:20 PM
Candy Sue, are you asking this of competitors, judges, or both?

Anyone who cares to chime in actually.

Candy Sue
07-26-2013, 01:22 PM
I've only had one comment card, and it was extremely helpful!!.. I'd love to see them still used. I don't understand why their use would be (or is) cancelled since they are an option?

Bragger. My opinion, I've never gotten a comment card that told me anything useful...

BMerrill
07-26-2013, 01:23 PM
+1 check boxes for the typical mark up/downs (poll judges as well)
+1 add lines for written comments
+1 Tear sheet idea so the renumber can be removed
+1 required on every entry

Candy Sue
07-26-2013, 01:29 PM
I am all in favor of the comment cards as is a concensus majority of the BOD. The only problem that I see is, the BOD member who is in charge of finding a solution, is against them in the first place and voted so. His job, as I understand it, is to form a committee and try to effect a solution. I think that ice water, cold day in Phoenix, etc. come to mind. We'll see.

I've made no secret that I, personally, think comment cards are a waste of time. I still voted to pursue a plan to make them work.

It is 100% absolutely a bad idea to make comment cards mandatory at any given score. What that does is force scores up to the "no comment card" range. Comment cards can be recommended at a certain score or below, but not required.

Candy Sue
07-26-2013, 01:32 PM
Well then lets make them mandatory no matter the score. If a judge refuses, then they obviously don't take the task of judging seriously.

Are you willing to push the awards back so this can happen? Sorting and attaching comment cards takes beau coup time to do it right.

Candy Sue
07-26-2013, 01:38 PM
I love that most of you are 100% certainly how 1000's of judges would respond to a change in the judging procedure. The reality is that anyone saying that mandatory comment cards would result in judges only giving out score above the cut have no clue how the judges would respond to the change.

Comment cards could be valuable for cooks, but also for KCBS to learn more about how judges score. That information could be used to identify areas where the actual methods used to judge are deviating from the intended method as described by KCBS.

Judges that would respond to the comment card by caring less about the scores they give dont need to be judging. KCBS should be actively working to root out those judges and make sure that they are not damaging the integrity of their contests.

How would KCBS know? In the past the comment card was stapled to the individual team detail sheet. KCBS does not record that info anywhere. There was a suggestion last board meeting to put comments on back of score card -- there'd have to be a spot for 6-8 comments on the back of the card (relating to how many samples the judge gets to judge). That way KCBS would get the comments AND the comment would (hopefully) be identified with the correct team.

Bentley
07-26-2013, 01:44 PM
Is it my responsibility as a judge to make a team better at cooking BBQ? Of course not.

If I judge a teams entry below average, is it my responsibility to articulate to them why...of course it is.

Until a judge has that mentality, making comment cards mandatory or not is pointless.

I am sorry I don't know how to tell you how to get a judge to that point, for me it was many years and competitions, both judging and cooking.

Q-Dat
07-26-2013, 01:45 PM
Are you willing to push the awards back so this can happen? Sorting and attaching comment cards takes beau coup time to do it right.

It wouldn't bother me a bit, but I don't speak for everyone, so I see your point. Why not send the comment cards out via email or traditional snail mail the next day?

CivilWarBBQ
07-26-2013, 01:55 PM
As a cook I value comment cards. Even those I think are ridiculous give me an insight into the thought processes of that judge and help me understand their scores.

As a judge I can't remember a recent contest where I have *not* submitted at least one comment card, usually I average two or three.

I don't have a specific set point where I use them, rather I will fill out a card when I feel my scores may require some explanation. For example I might make a comment on a 9-9-7 score to advise the cook that a rib was excellent with the exception that there was a bit of membrane overlooked that brought down the tenderness score.

bbq.tom
07-26-2013, 02:21 PM
I'm with ya on this. Move turn ins to one hour apart (starting at 11) so that judges have time to evaluate and properly comment on each entry.

I've been saying this for years! Require a comment on EVERY score so that not only does the team know why they got the score they received, but so that KCBS can see how ALL judges score and why. Make the comment part of the scorecard.
This would require an hour between turn-ins, but would improve the judging and the understanding of the teams.
If there are some judges who don't like this, FINE, there are plenty of judges like me who want to improve relations between judges and teams! More are being trained every week.

DawgPhan
07-26-2013, 02:44 PM
How would KCBS know? In the past the comment card was stapled to the individual team detail sheet. KCBS does not record that info anywhere. There was a suggestion last board meeting to put comments on back of score card -- there'd have to be a spot for 6-8 comments on the back of the card (relating to how many samples the judge gets to judge). That way KCBS would get the comments AND the comment would (hopefully) be identified with the correct team.


Obviously they would need to collect the data and then look at it.

KCBS needs to have a clear vision for competition BBQ, they are the gold standard, and they need to support and reinforce that vision at every turn.

Collecting data, analyzing it, and identifying cooks, judges, and organizers who are not supporting that and then course correcting along the way.

MarleyMan
07-26-2013, 02:59 PM
We have only 3 comps under our belt, however we were left scratching our heads after a 7th place chicken call and the following comp a 32nd using the same recipe and technique. Everyone has bad days or there may have been that one bad piece of chicken we were unaware of. However without a comment card, we do not know what the issue was.

So in short yes, I think they are a valuable tool to new and established teams on the circuit.

kenthanson
07-26-2013, 04:07 PM
I'm with ya on this. Move turn ins to one hour apart (starting at 11) so that judges have time to evaluate and properly comment on each entry.

That's what we do up here in the PNWBA, pork at 11, brisket at 12, chicken at 1, ribs at 2, awards at 4. At the comp two weekends ago we received a comment card from just about every judge in every category....but we also received 9,9,9,8,7,4 for brisket tenderness
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/598368_10151743246550350_704810302_n.jpg

bigdogphin
07-26-2013, 04:41 PM
That's what we do up here in the PNWBA, pork at 11, brisket at 12, chicken at 1, ribs at 2, awards at 4. At the comp two weekends ago we received a comment card from just about every judge in every category....but we also received 9,9,9,8,7,4 for brisket tenderness
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/598368_10151743246550350_704810302_n.jpg

Pnwba also has a list of words to choose from to help judges give feedback. This is why you see repeat comments. It provides a theme to how his cook went

Bentley
07-26-2013, 04:52 PM
Salty, plain smoke flavor, peppery...and a 5, wow. Lol...to me that is the definition of Brisket!

Haastyle
07-27-2013, 12:12 AM
I love the comment cards. There is no shortage of judges out there for normal comps so who cares if you make them spend a little more time taking a real interest in what they are doing. If they aren't willing to explain themselves as to why they think or feel that way.... you didn't want them anyways. Then it is clear that the judge thinks the game is about him/her, and not the food. Make it about the food.

I would say for small comps and state qualifiers make them manditory. IF you're winning and moving along further up the ladder, you aren't needing or looking for advice at that big contest. And being one of 400 teams.. a few comments are not what you are looking for. Setting guidelines as to what type of event should get them is a easy way to not complicate dealing with 24 cards per team at large events.
Anything comp under.... 100 teams gets them, whatever. Table captian collects and sorts them for each teams at his table right there. They would then take them to a secondary table for other meat comment cards to join. They can run them to that table inbetween each meat catagory... like a bingo sheet LOL, or a filing drawer(which would be easier). All the organizing is done and done quickly. Takes like 5 minutes, so easy.

I also don't feel KCBS would need to gather this data either. If you get a explaination from 5 people that are similiar and sixth is way off. You can easily dismiss that one as a fool and leave it at that. Chalk it up to bad luck that you got that person. These only need to be personal opinion notes meant solely for the cooker. If the idea would be to use this as a tool to help identify and "retrain" that judge, I am not interested in that just yet. Fix one problem at a time. Deal with retraining that guy later. Nothing like taking two toxic topics and try to resolve them both at once. Like peace in Isreal and the national budget. Doesn't work. Put your pants on one leg at a time. Get the comment cards out there. Once that is in place, then it is time to analize what assets you have infront of you and how best to manage judges within your set rules. First get what and why they think out there, then if you want to, look further into what they are saying. I as a competitor have no need to know who the person it. Just what they think.

If there needs to be more time for the judges....... bump the first turn in up half a hour and then make the turn ins at 45 minute interavals. It would be petty and small if someone couldn't adapt to that. Just stubborn jack***ery. That way the brisket will be turned in only 15mins later than it is already. That also give the judge almost 2 minutes per entry to make comments. That is more than enough time.

Pappy Q
07-27-2013, 01:20 AM
What comment would you expect for an average/6? "It was average"? "It could have been better"? Are you looking for the judge to tell you how you should have cooked? Judges are instructed to not do that in comments.

That 6 may be considered "average" but it and even a 7 is the kiss of death when it comes to finishing towards the top.

bbq.tom
07-27-2013, 07:20 AM
That 6 may be considered "average" but it and even a 7 is the kiss of death when it comes to finishing towards the top.

So what you really want is for the judges to tell you why it wasn't excellent? Why it wasn't the best damn entry they judged? You want the judge to justify as to why they didn't think that your entry should have won.

Pappy Q
07-27-2013, 08:02 AM
So what you really want is for the judges to tell you why it wasn't excellent? Why it wasn't the best damn entry they judged? You want the judge to justify as to why they didn't think that your entry should have won.

Nope, I don't want them to tell me anything. Just give me an honest score that is fair when compared with others. I'm one of the few who don't care for comment cards and have found no benefit in them. But that's just my worthless opinion.

Why would you try to twist my comment? Just stating a fact.

sdbbq1234
07-27-2013, 11:28 AM
Hats off to Candy for posting the poll and asking a simple question. :clap2:

Second, I voted yes. I did not think it was a big deal for me when judging to fill out a comment card. And I fill out a lot!

wallace

LindaM
07-27-2013, 12:08 PM
I am all in favor of the comment cards as is a concensus majority of the BOD. The only problem that I see is, the BOD member who is in charge of finding a solution, is against them in the first place and voted so. His job, as I understand it, is to form a committee and try to effect a solution. I think that ice water, cold day in Phoenix, etc. come to mind. We'll see.

and I would bet that person is also a rep and no comment cards have ever been handed out at a contest he reps

LindaM
07-27-2013, 12:13 PM
It wouldn't bother me a bit, but I don't speak for everyone, so I see your point. Why not send the comment cards out via email or traditional snail mail the next day?

keying those comments after the contest is a long process. Then sending the emails. Reps just don't have that time

HawgPound
07-27-2013, 01:58 PM
If the comment tells me how to cook, it is not helpful. If the comment tells me what they liked or disliked about my turn in, it is very helpful.

Big Mike
07-27-2013, 02:26 PM
In 2011, the KCBS Rules Committee suggested that comment cards be modified so that there were check boxes that said things like:

Too Salty
Too Sweet
Too Spicey
Under Seasoned
Off Flavor
Over Cooked
Under Cooked

This idea was never addressed to the best of my knowledge but it sure seemed like a very good improvement to those of us on the committee.

The above would be useful. Most comment cards I have heard of have not been helpful at all. For example, the one comment card I received said "the sauce got in my mustache".

Q-Dat
07-27-2013, 02:34 PM
keying those comments after the contest is a long process. Then sending the emails. Reps just don't have that time

Well then lets make the comment card and the scorecard one sheet as others have suggested.

If anyone would care to come up with more obstaclea to mandatory comment cards/checklists, I will be happy to continue providing simple easily performed solutions to them.

No sarcasm intended here.

Hawg Father of Seoul
07-27-2013, 04:28 PM
The above would be useful. Most comment cards I have heard of have not been helpful at all. For example, the one comment card I received said "the sauce got in my mustache".

They obviously meant you put too much sauce on, so much it was messy.

HawgPound
07-28-2013, 12:17 AM
The scoresheet on this page could foster some ideas fo comment cards.

http://www.bbqcritic.com/news.html

Arlin_MacRae
07-29-2013, 10:32 AM
Here's what beer judges use for a score sheet on every single entry. It can be tedious, and I'm not sayin' there needs to be this kind of depth for a BBQ entry, but check it out. You'll see what I mean.
http://www.bjcp.org/docs/SCP_BeerScoreSheet.pdf

bignburlyman
07-29-2013, 10:45 AM
I am a judge and I like the comment cards, I think it shows respect to the cook teams if you score them down if you can give them a reason for your score. I once gave a team a comment card for a score of 9 9 8, because it was a great rib but just a little too overdone. A checkbox list of comments would be ok, but might get tiresome if it has too many options to look through to find the comment you want.

As far as the team number on the comment card, this is my idea. I borrowed the card image posted by Rich Parker, (thanks), because I could not find an image online. I understand that just using a marker to black out the alternate number the writing or imprint can still show through so that doesn't work how about this:

The reps would write the team number to the side of the alternate number and just take a simple paper punch and punch out the area of the alternate number, example below. This example uses addition of 111 to the actual team number for the alternate number. This would allow use of the current comment card with no change and obliterate the alternate number. Just a thought.

Smokedelic
07-29-2013, 10:46 AM
That 6 may be considered "average" but it and even a 7 is the kiss of death when it comes to finishing towards the top.
...as it should.

I haven't cooked in any contests lately where I felt like average bbq was going to be good enough to finish near the top.

tnjimbob
07-29-2013, 01:28 PM
Got a comment card on brisket when I was cooking with another team a couple of years ago that was useless. It said, "dry".... and that was all. Would have been nice to have more info to go on besides a one word comment.

Otherwise, yes. IIRC, in my judging class, the instructor said that if you give a team a lower score you should fill out a comment card explaining why you gave them that score. As a competitor, this would be nice to have so you will understand what may have caused you to receive a low score for that turn-in.

Pappy Q
07-29-2013, 02:55 PM
...as it should.

I haven't cooked in any contests lately where I felt like average bbq was going to be good enough to finish near the top.

Agree 100%

bbq.tom
07-29-2013, 03:07 PM
Got a comment card on brisket when I was cooking with another team a couple of years ago that was useless. It said, "dry".... and that was all.

The comment said "dry" and that was useless?????

Last I heard, cooks want judges to state what they found, not how to cook it better. This judge found the brisket "dry". Sounds pretty useful to me.

As a cook I would want this comment (if indeed that was the problem), and NOT call it useless.

boogiesnap
07-29-2013, 05:07 PM
i dunno, i should prolly stay out cuz i'm an ass and what do i know, but here are my simple thoughts....

comment cards aren't that useful...

1)when your cook ain't that great, ya damn well know it already.
2)if you get 999986, we can't call out that judge who gave a 6 publicly to write a card. they'll never score honestly again(re-educated through tracking, maybe). and would YOU change your cook because of it anyway? me? no.
3)seasoned cooks know what they are doing, too salty, dry, too tender, they knew it already before the it hit the judges. unseasoned cooks are still learning and their scores will reflect that OVERALL.

if a rookie cook gets 5 sevens and 1 five, and the comment card on the 5 reads too salty, they may reduce the salt, when the other 5 judges liked the salt level and the one judge was off base.

i dunno, thats just me. when banging food went into the box i knew it. when mediocre food went into the box i knew it too. the scoring directly correlated.

boogiesnap
07-29-2013, 05:22 PM
I am a judge and I like the comment cards, I think it shows respect to the cook teams if you score them down if you can give them a reason for your score. I once gave a team a comment card for a score of 9 9 8, because it was a great rib but just a little too overdone. A checkbox list of comments would be ok, but might get tiresome if it has too many options to look through to find the comment you want.

As far as the team number on the comment card, this is my idea. I borrowed the card image posted by Rich Parker, (thanks), because I could not find an image online. I understand that just using a marker to black out the alternate number the writing or imprint can still show through so that doesn't work how about this:

The reps would write the team number to the side of the alternate number and just take a simple paper punch and punch out the area of the alternate number, example below. This example uses addition of 111 to the actual team number for the alternate number. This would allow use of the current comment card with no change and obliterate the alternate number. Just a thought.

see, now ya got me goin...:twitch:

WTF does ALMOST too tender mean?

Hawg Father of Seoul
07-29-2013, 05:38 PM
i dunno, i should prolly stay out cuz i'm an ass and what do i know, but here are my simple thoughts....

comment cards aren't that useful...

1)when your cook ain't that great, ya damn well know it already.
2)if you get 999986, we can't call out that judge who gave a 6 publicly to write a card. they'll never score honestly again(re-educated through tracking, maybe). and would YOU change your cook because of it anyway? me? no.
3)seasoned cooks know what they are doing, too salty, dry, too tender, they knew it already before the it hit the judges. unseasoned cooks are still learning and their scores will reflect that OVERALL.

if a rookie cook gets 5 sevens and 1 five, and the comment card on the 5 reads too salty, they may reduce the salt, when the other 5 judges liked the salt level and the one judge was off base.

i dunno, thats just me. when banging food went into the box i knew it. when mediocre food went into the box i knew it too. the scoring directly correlated.

Don't worry. Some of us are more than capable of handling data. Let's not do the LCD BS.

spicewine
07-29-2013, 05:39 PM
I think ( As a certified Judge myself ) that if you give someone a 6 or less, that you owe them an explanation and SHOULD be expected to fill out a comment card. It is only fair to them. On the other hand, if you have lazy judges that grade up because they don't want to have to fill out a comment card, it is counter productive. Quite a conundrum.

billygbob
07-29-2013, 05:47 PM
comment cards aren't that useful...if you get 999986, we can't call out that judge who gave a 6 publicly to write a card. they'll never score honestly again(re-educated through tracking, maybe). and would YOU change your cook because of it anyway? me? no.

If I was a competition cook (and I'm not) I would consider a 999 and a 986 a clue that I am not putting consistent quality samples into my box. Change your cook, no; change quality control building the box; perhaps yes? (edit to add: maybe it is not an issue with the judge....)

boogiesnap
07-29-2013, 06:19 PM
Don't worry. Some of us are more than capable of handling data. Let's not do the LCD BS.

i'm not worried. i know when the samples are good and when they're not.

let's say this....if you get ALL 6's and one judge fills out a comment card, really think that is gonna help the cook? um, no their food sucked.

OR, if you get all 9's and one 5 and the judge filled out a comment card, gonna change your cook? um, no.

anything in between is subject to being subjective, a judges privieldge, and you can't change that.

interpret THAT data, fella.

BTW, did you mean LSD? because i have no idea what LCD(liquid crystal diodes)means in relation to competition BBQ.:becky:

scm1226
07-29-2013, 06:21 PM
BTW, did you mean LSD? because i have no idea what LCD(liquid crystal diodes)means in relation to competition BBQ.:becky:[/QUOTE]

How does LSD help your cook?? HAHAHA

boogiesnap
07-29-2013, 06:24 PM
I think ( As a certified Judge myself ) that if you give someone a 6 or less, that you owe them an explanation and SHOULD be expected to fill out a comment card. It is only fair to them. On the other hand, if you have lazy judges that grade up because they don't want to have to fill out a comment card, it is counter productive. Quite a conundrum.

see, THAT is the conundrum. what if EVERY judge gave that sample a six? do you really need a comment card, really? my comment would be "take a class". or read and learn more here. :becky:

but i don't know what the other judges scored, and it doesn't matter.

OR if only one did score a 6, and the rest were nines, would YOU change anything because of what one judge thought? i think not.

Smokedelic
07-29-2013, 07:53 PM
let's say this....if you get ALL 6's and one judge fills out a comment card, really think that is gonna help the cook? um, no their food sucked.
For a newer team, I think comment cards help them figure out how their food "sucked" from a competition perspective.

I know a lot of cooks who got into competition bbq because their friends and family told them they had the best bbq they'd ever tasted. I know when I first started, I thought the stuff I turned in was pretty damn good, but it really sucked, from a competition perspective. It would have been nice to have a little feedback back then on how and why it sucked.

Now, I know when it sucks, but back then, I was king of my driveway, no one had ever told me before that it sucked.

boogiesnap
07-29-2013, 10:20 PM
mike, agreed, but i don't think you're going to get that kind of depth in a comment card.

the 5's and 6's will tell you all you need to know at that point. as hawg so eloquently stated, read the data provided.

change what you're putting in the box.

Smokedelic
07-30-2013, 12:19 AM
mike, agreed, but i don't think you're going to get that kind of depth in a comment card.

the 5's and 6's will tell you all you need to know at that point. as hawg so eloquently stated, read the data provided.

change what you're putting in the box.

Change how?

Dry...tough...falling apart....sloppy....too spicy....those are all comments I could use as a newbie to help me figure out what changes to make. As an experienced cook, I disregard most, if not all, of it.

Comment cards aren't for ALL of us, but they are for SOME of us....especially the SOME of us that we ALL need to help this hobby grow.

boogiesnap
07-30-2013, 06:08 AM
fair enough. i still think it's alot of to do for a somewhat small return.

smokinrack
07-30-2013, 06:29 AM
I think even one word comments can help show what went wrong.

I turned in ribs awhile ago that were great right off the smoker.Taste and appearance were good but I got two 5s in texture.That could have meant they were mushy or it coulda meant they were tough.Thankfully 2 judges wrote "tough" on the cards and it became obvious I had totally screwed up the timing of cutting the ribs, they went in the box way to early and sat way to long before hitting the table, nobodys fault but mine but thanks to those comments you can bet it wont happen again.

boogiesnap
07-30-2013, 06:38 AM
I think even one word comments can help show what went wrong.

I turned in ribs awhile ago that were great right off the smoker.Taste and appearance were good but I got two 5s in texture.That could have meant they were mushy or it coulda meant they were tough.Thankfully 2 judges wrote "tough" on the cards and it became obvious I had totally screwed up the timing of cutting the ribs, they went in the box way to early and sat way to long before hitting the table, nobodys fault but mine but thanks to those comments you can bet it wont happen again.

edit-reread. i get it. good deal. :thumb:

bignburlyman
07-30-2013, 08:13 AM
see, now ya got me goin...:twitch:

WTF does ALMOST too tender mean?

Ok, we will both get goin, lol. WHERE did I say almost too tender? I said it was overdone, it was a little mushy when chewed, otherwise it was a great rib.

Edit to add: I see you were responding to the comment card that I used as an example. That was not MY comment card.

Spydermike72
07-30-2013, 08:23 AM
My only comment about comment cards is that I want to know wtf Judge # 3 was thinking when he gave me 666 and 5 other judges gave me either 999 or 998 or some combination of 9's and 8's...

Lake Dogs
07-30-2013, 08:38 AM
Hance (Lake Dogs) designed a comment card with pre-populated comments that could be checked off to indicate the situation - both good and bad. Sure would great to see his idea again!

If you listen to the July BOD meeting you will know/understand the concerns over the comment cards and how the REPS efforts would increase to make them work.


Candy,

We can search around and find what I'd come up with a while back.

The problem, as I see it, is two fold:

1. Judges perspective: It's time consuming to fill out and frankly a pain in the butt

2. Cooks perspective: Is only useful if it's accurate


What, a comment card be inaccurate? Say it's' not so. Well, I've received both positive and negative comments on my card, but the ones that drive me batty are those that suggest that the meat was undercooked and falling apart, or overcooked and tough, etc. etc.

I'm of the opinion that they should be short, sweet, and to the point. And, this can be done by a check box system, by category:

Tenderness, is too:
_ tough _ dry _ crunchy
_ mushy _ greasy
_ grainy/gristle _ fatty

Taste, is too (or tastes like):
_ bland _ spicy/hot _ smokey
_ salty _ burned _ off-taste
_ sweet _ fuel/petroleum _ saucy


etc. I had a system that was pretty close (much better than above) a while back. Let me see if I cant find it.

I think the check box system would facilitate speed for judges and give the cooks specific feedback without the B.S.

Below is some that I said earlier:
------------------------------------------

For a long time I've been a fan of check-box comments, because knowing some of this could/would be helpful (IMHO). I mean, as a cook, I'd like to know. Probably the easiest would be tenderness:
Mushy Tough Rubbery Crunchy Greasy Dry Fatty

Taste might be:
too salty too sweet bland petroleum too spicy/hot off-taste too smokey too saucy

Appearance, probably not. It's purely subjective as to what the individual finds appetizing. They either do, or dont.

Hawg Father of Seoul
07-30-2013, 09:20 AM
i'm not worried. i know when the samples are good and when they're not.

let's say this....if you get ALL 6's and one judge fills out a comment card, really think that is gonna help the cook? um, no their food sucked.

OR, if you get all 9's and one 5 and the judge filled out a comment card, gonna change your cook? um, no.

anything in between is subject to being subjective, a judges privieldge, and you can't change that.

interpret THAT data, fella.

BTW, did you mean LSD? because i have no idea what LCD(liquid crystal diodes)means in relation to competition BBQ.:becky:

Least common denominator. A common acronym when talking data. Also a way of stating there is no reason to dumb it down for those not capable of digesting the data.

Sure you know everything that the judges are thinking, but I prefer to hear it from them.

Lake Dogs
07-30-2013, 09:41 AM
Boogie, I've had scores come back all over the place and comment cards would've really helped. I've also had helpful cards, and some that were bizarre and showed how little the judge knew and didnt tell me why he/she didnt like it... So, for me, all over the chart.

I think they can be VERY helpful, particularly to the newer cooks or those doing a "test run" if you will. But, they're only as good as they are accurate. Telling someone not to use lighterfluid when they dont use lighterfluid, or telling them how to cook, is goofy and stupid. However, saying something like "it tastes or smells like petroleum" is much better. Who knows, they may not have used any but their smoker may wreak of it...

I like them, I think they can be very helpful, but in their current way they're largely useless...

Outnumbered
07-30-2013, 10:13 AM
If I get a comment card for a 9 that says the taste was just the right amount of sweet and spice, but on the same entry I get a 6 from a different judge saying it's too spicy, should I write that off? I'm going to say no.

In the past if I get 8,8,9,9,8,6 for taste, I'm at a loss for why that 6 got in there. Granted, the 6 will probably not be counted, but I'm looking at the next contest where I may have two judge 6's that don't like spicy.

I can't tell you right now without tasting the product of whether I thought it was too spicy or not that day, but my starting point is a lot narrower window with mandatory comments, regardless of the score.

I can make the decision of changing or not based on what I know the product to be that day, combined with the judges comments and scores.

CBQ
07-31-2013, 04:56 PM
In 2011, the KCBS Rules Committee suggested that comment cards be modified so that there were check boxes that said things like:

Too Salty
Too Sweet
Too Spicey
Under Seasoned
Off Flavor
Over Cooked
Under Cooked

This idea was never addressed to the best of my knowledge but it sure seemed like a very good improvement to those of us on the committee.

And a section for things they put on comment cards but shouldn't :becky:


Meat was too cold
Didn't have more than 6 pieces
Didn't have pulled in the pork box
Didn't have slices in the pork box
Didn't have burnt ends in the brisket box
Was really, really good but I never give 9s (the "new england" option)
Was really, really bad but I never give under a 7 (the "southern state" option)
Portions too small to put in my cooler
I don't eat [check all the apply] chicken, pork, beef
I don't like smoked meat


Seriously, I think the pull tab is a good idea - or just put the team number at the bottom and tear it off. No need for special paper. There aren't a LOT of comment cards, so wouldn't be a lot of work for the reps. I also think check boxes would be helpful, but should include compliments as well as negative things to encourage the judges to use them for things they like too

CBQ
07-31-2013, 05:04 PM
Telling someone not to use lighterfluid when they dont use lighterfluid, or telling them how to cook, is goofy and stupid.

Agreed judges should comment on what they tasted and not what they thought the cook did wrong, though one can translate the lighter fluid comment to mean "it was over smoked and you got creosote on your meat"

DoctorVapor
08-01-2013, 09:52 AM
Some comments are a bit confusing as most judges donít have enough time to write proper notes while judging. Iíve gotten judging notes that say:
Judge 1. Too spicy
Judge 2. Not enough spice
Judge 3. Too much sauce
Judge 4. Not enough sauce.
Judge 5. Overcooked
Judge 6. Undercooked
In other words, in something as subjective as taste, sometimes judgeís notes can be worthless and take you down the wrong path on the next cook if you take them to heart. I try and concentrate more on overall score as compared to the other cookers to make minor adjustments.

Candy Sue
08-01-2013, 10:58 AM
Thanks for all the feedback! One of the committee members came up with a cracker jack version with descriptions contributed by this thread. I truly appreciate every comment on comment cards.

moosesbbq
08-02-2013, 09:27 AM
In my opinion, the comment cards provide value and insight. We tried a sauce that flopped. It was an experiment and without the cards I would not of known what the issue of the ok scores were. And now that sauce is retired :>)

Hozman
08-02-2013, 12:32 PM
I think any score of 7 or lower should be required to have a comment card.

As a cook would love to know why and as a judge I believe I owe it to the cook to tell him why.

musicmanryann
08-05-2013, 10:53 AM
Seems that the results of this poll provide a resounding "YES" to the helpfulness of comment cards. Additionally, several good and simple ideas were provided in the comments as to how to resolve the issue regarding removing the alternate number from the comment cards. Hopefully there can be some resolution to the issue soon. It would be nice to know judges have the option to use them again.

trohrs123
08-05-2013, 11:19 AM
This weekend's Battle Of BBQ Brethren was not KCBS sanctioned and I received 5 comment cards, 4 of which told me my brisket was too salty, and one for ribs, "sauce too sweet and too much"
Worthwhile?
Absolutely! 1 card saying too much salt I could it chalk up to a judge being sensitive to salt, I really didn't think it was too salty when I tasted. But for 4 judges to comment same thing? I need to make a change.
I'm not sure what the instructions to the judges were, but I appreciate the cards and will take their criticism to heart. Wishing I could expect the same at my next KCBS contest.

BBQ_Mayor
08-05-2013, 12:23 PM
I'll post an example of the the scorecards we use for the Frostbuster BBQ when I get home tonight. It's just like what was suggested with check boxes for bad and good flavors and profiles. Also, at the Frostbuster the judges must comment on Good and Bad flavors. What they liked, what they didn't like..things like that and it doesn't take any longer for the judges to fill out these cards.

Uomograsso
08-05-2013, 12:53 PM
Nope, I don't want them to tell me anything. Just give me an honest score that is fair when compared with others. I'm one of the few who don't care for comment cards and have found no benefit in them. But that's just my worthless opinion.

Why would you try to twist my comment? Just stating a fact.


As a KCBS Judge we are trained and told NOT to compare the entries. Each entry is to be judged on its own merits. If you haven't judged a contest you should. 99% of the judges I have sat with do take the time to give a fair and honest score.

BBQ_Mayor
08-05-2013, 08:08 PM
Here it is. This is the card we use for our contest, Frostbuster BBQ.
All the certified judges, included a few master judges, like the card and have no trouble getting it filled out in the half time frame.
The numbers on the right top 1-6 and 7-12 have some general comments. If you notice 1-6 are the bad comments and 7-12 are the good comments and that corresponds to the very right column where the judges are to circle the number. There is also plenty of space to for a comment.

83328

BigBellyBBQ
08-12-2013, 03:33 AM
[QUOTE=Hozman;2574637]I think any score of 7 or lower should be required to have a comment card.

Plus if a score is under 7, they should be thoughtfull and put there phone number down!
In reallity if the table captain sees 999 988 988 998 then a 566, 967 the low scoring judge should have to explain...I can see maybe a tough or dry rib, but how do all give 9 for appearence then a 5??
Then last year I got a comment card that ribs were too juicy? That it squirted when bit into?:crazy: I don't even inject ribs...
but comment cards are usefull, as sometimes direction we travel is down a one way street..

bbq.tom
08-12-2013, 09:52 AM
Here it is. This is the card we use for our contest, Frostbuster BBQ.
All the certified judges, included a few master judges, like the card and have no trouble getting it filled out in the half time frame.
The numbers on the right top 1-6 and 7-12 have some general comments. If you notice 1-6 are the bad comments and 7-12 are the good comments and that corresponds to the very right column where the judges are to circle the number. There is also plenty of space to for a comment.

83328

I LOVE IT!!! GREAT concept to actually let the cooks know WHY they got the scores that they received.

I've stated it MANY times and continue to believe that judging could be greatly improved by going to this type of scorecard (requiring a comment on every entry). Not only does this put the responsibility of "justifying" the score on the judge, but also will weed-out judges that aren't really wanting to improve the overall process (not taking the responsibility serious). There are enough "serious" judges around that losing a few "non-serious" judges will not only be beneficial to the system, but will give the serious judges better opportunities to be confirmed at contests - improving the system even further.

Whatever can be done to improve judges and the overall process is definitely worth the extra time and effort!

Lake Dogs
08-12-2013, 11:35 AM
Here it is. This is the card we use for our contest, Frostbuster BBQ.
All the certified judges, included a few master judges, like the card and have no trouble getting it filled out in the half time frame.
The numbers on the right top 1-6 and 7-12 have some general comments. If you notice 1-6 are the bad comments and 7-12 are the good comments and that corresponds to the very right column where the judges are to circle the number. There is also plenty of space to for a comment.

83328

I LOVE it, particularly the format of the whole card. I think a combination of my negative section and your remainder would probably be the best (I know a lot of judges who think they know when something is undercooked, but frankly are wrong and visa versa), plus there are other negatives to be had...

sdbbq1234
08-12-2013, 01:01 PM
Here it is. This is the card we use for our contest, Frostbuster BBQ.
All the certified judges, included a few master judges, like the card and have no trouble getting it filled out in the half time frame.
The numbers on the right top 1-6 and 7-12 have some general comments. If you notice 1-6 are the bad comments and 7-12 are the good comments and that corresponds to the very right column where the judges are to circle the number. There is also plenty of space to for a comment.

83328


Very nice indeed!!!

Just thinking, would there be any reason to have a # 13 - Other on the numbers/comments side? Or, maybe that would get to confusing?

Just thinking...........

wallace

tigerpaw
08-12-2013, 01:03 PM
Here it is. This is the card we use for our contest, Frostbuster BBQ.
All the certified judges, included a few master judges, like the card and have no trouble getting it filled out in the half time frame.
The numbers on the right top 1-6 and 7-12 have some general comments. If you notice 1-6 are the bad comments and 7-12 are the good comments and that corresponds to the very right column where the judges are to circle the number. There is also plenty of space to for a comment.

83328

Question and if answered before I apologize in advance. Using this form, a entry has several or at least more then one of the scores to the right. Do you circle the most important one or all that apply? I could see circling 7,8,9,10 AND 11 on the same entry as they could ALL apply. Just wondering what is done for this.

bbq.tom
08-12-2013, 01:09 PM
Just thinking, would there be any reason to have a # 13 - Other on the numbers/comments side? Or, maybe that would get to confusing?

Don't need the "# 13 - Other" as you have a place to list (write in) other comments.

sdbbq1234
08-12-2013, 02:05 PM
Don't need the "# 13 - Other" as you have a place to list (write in) other comments.

Perfect! Got it!

Thanks.

wallace

trohrs123
08-13-2013, 10:06 AM
This weekend's Battle Of BBQ Brethren was not KCBS sanctioned and I received 5 comment cards, 4 of which told me my brisket was too salty, and one for ribs, "sauce too sweet and too much"
Worthwhile?
Absolutely! 1 card saying too much salt I could it chalk up to a judge being sensitive to salt, I really didn't think it was too salty when I tasted. But for 4 judges to comment same thing? I need to make a change.
I'm not sure what the instructions to the judges were, but I appreciate the cards and will take their criticism to heart. Wishing I could expect the same at my next KCBS contest.

thanks to those comment cards I dialed back the salt for the sam's club Medford NY contest and took 1st in Brisket!!

BBQ_Mayor
08-13-2013, 12:28 PM
Question and if answered before I apologize in advance. Using this form, a entry has several or at least more then one of the scores to the right. Do you circle the most important one or all that apply? I could see circling 7,8,9,10 AND 11 on the same entry as they could ALL apply. Just wondering what is done for this.

It's intended to help the judge in the judging of thier plate. They could circle what ever applies to that entry. Just one number or all the numbers. They also must provide a comment, good or bad, on the entry.

Fat Freddy
08-13-2013, 12:43 PM
I will use chicken as an example at the Frostbuster contest this year (we did get 1st) The 1st judge circled 7 and 9 and wrote on comment rubbery skin. 2nd judge circled 11 and said a little more salt needed. 3rd judge circled 7,10,11, and 12 and commented skin very easy to bite. 4th judge circled 10 and commented no flavor. 5th judge circled 10 and 11 and said looked great. 6th judge circled 7 and 10 and commented looked good.

What i took from this is different judges want different things, but maybe our taste needs something(needs salt and no flavor comments). One judge had skin come off(when i tasted ours before boxing happened to me too) Our presentation seemed to be good and we seemed to have the right moisture so I need to work on flavor.