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Bigmista
03-18-2006, 09:22 PM
Well we finished our practice cook today. We had some mishaps but we learned a lot and still got to eat BBQ. All in all a great day. Below are pics of the turnin boxes we made. I'd like your opinions, comments and questions, please?

http://www.thesurvivalgourmet.com/images/dilloeggs1.jpg

http://www.thesurvivalgourmet.com/images/chickenbox1.jpg

http://www.thesurvivalgourmet.com/images/chickenbox2.jpg

http://www.thesurvivalgourmet.com/images/ribbox1.jpg

http://www.thesurvivalgourmet.com/images/ribbox2.jpg

http://www.thesurvivalgourmet.com/images/porkbox1.jpg

http://www.thesurvivalgourmet.com/images/porkbox2.jpg

http://www.thesurvivalgourmet.com/images/brisketbox1.jpg

http://www.thesurvivalgourmet.com/images/brisketbox2.jpg

All comments are welcome!

BrooklynQ
03-18-2006, 09:29 PM
Damn Neil.
I just judged a contest today.
I just ate dinner at the best BBQ restaurant I've ever been to.
And you just made me hungry again.
Bite me.
Let's Discuss.

MrsMista
03-18-2006, 09:34 PM
I got to play judge today. Boy is that a fattening job. I don't think you're supposed to eat as much as I did when you're judging. Hey I just realized I didn't get to sample the fatties. I want a do over.

MilitantSquatter
03-18-2006, 10:50 PM
Big Mista,

I also judged a contest today and ate at the best BBQ restuarant I've ever been to (Smoker too - BrooklynQ to provide details and pics) and I'm hungry too !!!

Here's my feedback on your turn in boxes for appearance

- fatties look real nice - I'd give a solid 8 on those and tempted to give a 9.
-Chicken - boxes look nice, chicken looks real appetizing. The variation of the skin color being much darker is throwing me for a loop. Probably a 7, maybe an 8. Would need to see skin in person to get a better idea.

- Ribs - Like box 1 better, nicer mahogony color. Looks like a 9 to me on box 1. Maybe a 7, possibly 8 on box 2. I'd suggest filling in the garnish a little more.

- Pulled pork - both look the same . Nice job pulling, Hard to tell but look a drop dry. Probably just the picture. May just need a light spray mop as a finisher to look a little moister. Probably a 7-8 from me.

-Brisket - I like box 1 better than box 2. Box 1 has a nicer reddish tint to meat. Box 2 has a greyish appearance and not crazy about the ends stuffed in on the sides like that... Probably a 7-8 on 1 and a 6-7 on # 2.

Take my opinions lightly... I'm just one person (and I've been up since 4:45AM and very overtired from a long day).

Sawdustguy
03-19-2006, 01:23 AM
Mista,

My criticism is constructive. I am looking at it like a judge. I will tell you my mark and tell you why. Here goes.

Fatties: I really like the fatties box. I would give it an 8 to 9. It is very colorful and full looking and the fatties look like I would want to grab one and woof it down. If I had one minor suggestion it would be to trim the sides and front so the are very even across.

Chicken: I would score this one a 6 for two reasons. The way the sking sits on the chicken does not look appetising to me and the garnish looks unkempt and uneven. I have seen cooks sit with a small sissors trimming their garnish straight and even.

Ribs: I would score this one a 6. The reasons for my 7 is that the box looks unfull. There are alot of places that garnish could have been added to make the overall presentation nicer. I would also like to see the sides of the ribs glazed and sprayed to put a nice sheen on the ribs.

Pork: The pulled pork looks delicious but the box looks a little sloppy. I would also give a spritz of apple juice to make the pork glisten. Make sure to buy the best garnish you can.

Brisket: I give the first brisket box an 8. Trim your garnish so it does not hang out of the box. I would also spray or paint a little jus on the briskey to make it shine and glisten.

Take it for what it is worth. I have heard that the reward is in the details. I have seen cooks drag out what looks like a make-up kit with all kinds of brushes and scissors to meticulously trim and fill in the garnish and brush glaze and jus to make their product look wonderful. I hope I have helped. Best of luck.

Sledneck
03-19-2006, 07:04 AM
Mista,


Pork: The pulled pork looks delicious but the box looks a little sloppy. I would also give a spritz of apple juice to make the pork glisten. Make sure to buy the best garnish you can.



What type of garnish would that be?

Bigmista
03-19-2006, 08:14 AM
Big Mista,

I also judged a contest today and ate at the best BBQ restuarant I've ever been to (Smoker too - BrooklynQ to provide details and pics) and I'm hungry too !!!

Here's my feedback on your turn in boxes for appearance

- fatties look real nice - I'd give a solid 8 on those and tempted to give a 9.
-Chicken - boxes look nice, chicken looks real appetizing. The variation of the skin color being much darker is throwing me for a loop. Probably a 7, maybe an 8. Would need to see skin in person to get a better idea.

- Ribs - Like box 1 better, nicer mahogony color. Looks like a 9 to me on box 1. Maybe a 7, possibly 8 on box 2. I'd suggest filling in the garnish a little more.

- Pulled pork - both look the same . Nice job pulling, Hard to tell but look a drop dry. Probably just the picture. May just need a light spray mop as a finisher to look a little moister. Probably a 7-8 from me.

-Brisket - I like box 1 better than box 2. Box 1 has a nicer reddish tint to meat. Box 2 has a greyish appearance and not crazy about the ends stuffed in on the sides like that... Probably a 7-8 on 1 and a 6-7 on # 2.

Take my opinions lightly... I'm just one person (and I've been up since 4:45AM and very overtired from a long day).

Thanks! Color variations are just from whether the flash went off or not, especially on the brisket. THanks again for the opinion. It is greatly appreciated!

Bigmista
03-19-2006, 08:26 AM
Mista,

My criticism is constructive. I am looking at it like a judge. I will tell you my mark and tell you why. Here goes.

Fatties: I really like the fatties box. I would give it an 8 to 9. It is very colorful and full looking and the fatties look like I would want to grab one and woof it down. If I had one minor suggestion it would be to trim the sides and front so the are very even across.

Chicken: I would score this one a 6 for two reasons. The way the sking sits on the chicken does not look appetising to me and the garnish looks unkempt and uneven. I have seen cooks sit with a small sissors trimming their garnish straight and even.

Ribs: I would score this one a 6. The reasons for my 7 is that the box looks unfull. There are alot of places that garnish could have been added to make the overall presentation nicer. I would also like to see the sides of the ribs glazed and sprayed to put a nice sheen on the ribs.

Pork: The pulled pork looks delicious but the box looks a little sloppy. I would also give a spritz of apple juice to make the pork glisten. Make sure to buy the best garnish you can.

Brisket: I give the first brisket box an 8. Trim your garnish so it does not hang out of the box. I would also spray or paint a little jus on the briskey to make it shine and glisten.

Take it for what it is worth. I have heard that the reward is in the details. I have seen cooks drag out what looks like a make-up kit with all kinds of brushes and scissors to meticulously trim and fill in the garnish and brush glaze and jus to make their product look wonderful. I hope I have helped. Best of luck.

Guy,

The brisket and the pork were bothe shinier than the picture shows. Guess I need a better camera. We sprayed the pork and we dipped the brisket in the jus just before placing it in the box.

I suggested skinless thighs to our chicken guy but he is going to try a few more things to get the chicken right. Great flavor though. We had some problems with the ribs. Probably not enough coal in the WSM because they weren't done after five hours. I suggested the 3-2-1 method to our rib guy but he doesn't like to foil his ribs. I'll try to convince him to do it both ways so we can compare. Great rub and sauce on the ribs though. Sweet beginning with an ancho chili finish.

We are really excited about doing this contest and appreciate all the help we are getting from the brethren.

Bigmista
03-19-2006, 09:18 AM
Any other comments?

Sawdustguy
03-19-2006, 10:03 AM
Guy,

The brisket and the pork were bothe shinier than the picture shows. Guess I need a better camera. We sprayed the pork and we dipped the brisket in the jus just before placing it in the box.

I suggested skinless thighs to our chicken guy but he is going to try a few more things to get the chicken right. Great flavor though. We had some problems with the ribs. Probably not enough coal in the WSM because they weren't done after five hours. I suggested the 3-2-1 method to our rib guy but he doesn't like to foil his ribs. I'll try to convince him to do it both ways so we can compare. Great rub and sauce on the ribs though. Sweet beginning with an ancho chili finish.

We are really excited about doing this contest and appreciate all the help we are getting from the brethren.
I had a feeling that was the case about the photo. That being so, my marks would have definetly been higher. Don't think my turn-in boxes are any better. I am not creative at all. This happens to be the one part my team sucks at the most. After all, we are just a bunch of fat Polocks. Let me emphasize that first and foremost all your entries looked absolutely delicious and that is the most important thing. Taste is the highest weighted criteria and from the looks of it thats no worry. What I mean by the best garnish is that my wife goes through heads and heads of lettuce and many boxes of parsley to find the absolutely best she can find at our local market. They cringe when they see her. I know you will do fine.

Sawdustguy
03-19-2006, 10:07 AM
What type of garnish would that be?

My wife is the scourge of our local produce market. My wife goes through every head of lettuce, all the parsley etc. to find the best of what they have. They cringe when they see her.

parrothead
03-19-2006, 11:16 AM
Fatties- They look excellent! Love the color!
Chicken- Needs some improvement on appearance. Don't trim up the skin until you are done cooking. Before that stretch and stretch the skin so that it wraps around and tucks under, then trim any extra hangers before turn in. You can also do some stretching before turn in if it shrinks to much. Give a call to the poobah and get some details from him on this. May be just me, but I would give a five or so based on the broad contrast that has come about from the shrinkage.
Ribs- They look excellent and tasty. The only thing that I don't see is that they are not pulling back from the bone what so ever. But, you said they weren't cooked long enough in the WSM.
Pulled pork- Looks good, but pulled pork is pulled pork
Brisket- Looks to me like your pieces were trimmed on the side to fit in the box better. I personally like to use smaller pieces so as not to trim and show bark on the top and both sides of the piece as well as a nice uniform smoke ring. Sofar I have not had a problem. I try to find whole packers under ten pounds. Kinda hard to do.
Overall garnish- Definately needs a little bit more time taken in placement. I like to get a nice level ring all the way around. Don't skimp! In competition, we use no less than one head per box, averaging about one and a half heads per turn-in box. This doesn't have to consume valuable turn-in time. Lettuce can be washed and seperated the night before or early in the morning. Boxes can also be made up well before turn in and stored in a cooler. Parsley may be a bit over used in some cases. I typically just like to use a sprig or three here and there to accent.

One last point. My mother was a flower arranger at one time. One of the biggest rules to stick to when arranging flowers (I assume that the same holds true to BBQ turn in boxes) is that under ten, odd numbers are more pleasing to the eye. I try to do this when arranging boxes. 3 strategically placed parsley sprigs rather than 2 or 4. 7 ribs rather than the rquired 6, etc., etc..

Just a few thoughts, and just my opinions.

beerguy
03-19-2006, 11:17 AM
Hey Guy, nothing personal, but I think you just spoiled my dream of pursuing being a judge. If you have to fluff and trim the garnish, just to be attacted to the finished product, this sounds more like the management style of corporate America that I detest. A contestant may have the best pork or whatever in a box but because some other guy trims a hangover of lettuce with a pair of eyebrow sissors he wins, doesn't sound fair. I know you are helping Mista and his team with the facts he asked for, but you also just saved me a lot of aggravation and expense by not pursuing a passion that I may have found to be a fraud.

By the way, Mista I thought it all looked great, but I don't count!

Kevin
03-19-2006, 11:36 AM
Hey Guy, nothing personal, but I think you just spoiled my dream of pursuing being a judge. If you have to fluff and trim the garnish, just to be attacted to the finished product, this sounds more like the management style of corporate America that I detest. A contestant may have the best pork or whatever in a box but because some other guy trims a hangover of lettuce with a pair of eyebrow sissors he wins, doesn't sound fair. I know you are helping Mista and his team with the facts he asked for, but you also just saved me a lot of aggravation and expense by not pursuing a passion that I may have found to be a fraud.

By the way, Mista I thought it all looked great, but I don't count!


Beerguy, These responses to Bigmista are regarding appearance only, as that is realy all that you can comment on from a picture, and as pointed out, the lighting can even make a picture deceiving. The importance of appearance is a small part of the final score. Important yes, but small.

Kansas City Barbecue Society Judgeing Procedures:
6. The weighting factors for the point system are as follows:
Appearance 0.5714
Taste 2.2858
Tenderness/Texture 1.1428

I'm trying to say that even though appearance is part of the score, if one team's product tastes superior to another team's but scores less in appearance, the better tasting turn in will win. Just didn't want to see you get turned off by the level of attention appearance is getting in this thread.

JohnMcD348
03-19-2006, 12:28 PM
Guys, I just want to say thanks, really for the insight and knowledge you guys are giving me on this. I've only ever judged one contest and was then only recently after the KCBS class. WOW! The things you guys are saying speaks volumes to me. I think I want to save this post for future reference.

BigMista, as far as I see your turn ins, they all looked really good. For the garnish, I would try to get a more uniform and claener look to the lines along the box. Maybe like was said before to try and make it so the lettuce doesn't stick out of the box when it's closed. Yea, I know it's a meat contest, not a garnish contest, but even though people are told one thing, they still have a tendancy to look at the Whole picture and not just the center peice. Work a little more on the skin to try and get it to stretch over a little more.
I didn't see anything in any of the boxes that looked unappetizing to me. Everything looked good from the photos.

butt head
03-19-2006, 12:38 PM
Beerguy, the compotition is more about having a good time with familiy and friends( at least to me anyway) than winning. the points that a judge gives me are just thier oppinion. you are missing out on a great time if you don't at least try a comp.

beerguy
03-19-2006, 01:08 PM
Thanks everyone, I forgot this was only pictures. Kevin, the scoring makes sense. I feel better now. As I attend more and more events, I think I will pursue this, cause I think being on both sides of the box, the presenter and the judge, and appreciating everyones hard work will make for an excellent judging criteria.

Bigmista
03-19-2006, 04:59 PM
I know I am definitely learning alot. keep the comments coming!!

jgh1204
03-19-2006, 05:40 PM
Beerguy, there are other bbq associations that do not allow garnish or sauce in the turn in box. IBCA is one. They do grade appearance though.

Another thing about IBCA is that they do not allow extra meat in the box. If they call for 9 slices, there had better be 9 slices, not 8, not 10, 11 is right out.

nmayeux
03-19-2006, 05:45 PM
Mista,
The boxes look great, and you have recieved some sage advice. The only thing that I can add, is I noticed that Tim and Dave used toothpicks to keep the skin on the chicken in place. They removed the picks just before turn in, and at least I was very impressed with the results. Good luck, and I hope you win big!

Sawdustguy
03-19-2006, 05:46 PM
Thanks everyone, I forgot this was only pictures. Kevin, the scoring makes sense. I feel better now. As I attend more and more events, I think I will pursue this, cause I think being on both sides of the box, the presenter and the judge, and appreciating everyones hard work will make for an excellent judging criteria.
I wouldn't compete at all if I were you until I took a judging class and judged a few contests. I do this as a hobby and to enjoy a couple days with my brother and his wife. The day I get upset over the presentation marks I get from the judges is the day I quit going to contests. For me and my brother, we do the absolute best we can and hope for the best. We have some beers, invite some friends to our site, shoot the breeze and try to have as much fun as we can. If we do well it is a bonus. As I stated, most of the teams that win usually take out that small pair of sissors and pay attention to those small details in presentation as well as their cooking. I also mentioned that my team is not at that level and we suck at presentation but we are learning. If you are going to get aggrevated at not winning and blame it on some non existant coporate management structure in competition BBQ maybe this is not the sport for you.

The_Kapn
03-19-2006, 05:56 PM
Mista,
The boxes look great, and you have recieved some sage advice. The only thing that I can add, is I noticed that Tim and Dave used toothpicks to keep the skin on the chicken in place. They removed the picks just before turn in, and at least I was very impressed with the results. Good luck, and I hope you win big!

We don't do that anymore--but a lot of teams do.
Whatever helps with the way you cook :lol:

TIM

nmayeux
03-19-2006, 06:12 PM
I try to pick the pieces with the best looking skin, but I still have to use the picks sometimes as a crutch. I hope to see you guys in comp so as to learn some new tricks. ;) I also use Jimmy's method of dunking to get that nice even coat. Anyway, I look forward to getting my @$$ handed to me a couple of times this year.

nmayeux
03-19-2006, 06:14 PM
We don't do that anymore--but a lot of teams do.
Whatever helps with the way you cook :lol:

TIM
If it is not a huge secret, how do you keep your skin in place?

The_Kapn
03-19-2006, 06:39 PM
If it is not a huge secret, how do you keep your skin in place?

Just stretch and wrap the best we can.
Seems to work for us now.

TIM

Bigmista
03-20-2006, 07:36 AM
Toothpicks. I never would have thought of that. I will definitely pass it on.

Solidkick
03-20-2006, 11:53 AM
Toothpicks. I never would have thought of that. I will definitely pass it on.
But leave enough toothpick out so you can find it to pull it out.....you don't want a judge biting into one....I thought I told you this in my PM to you.....musta been someone else....sorry.......

Bigmista
03-20-2006, 11:57 AM
You might have. It's a great idea and I think we will use it!

Bigmista
03-20-2006, 12:58 PM
I just posted pics of the whole cook on my blog. Check it out when you get a chance!

BrooklynQ
03-20-2006, 01:03 PM
Misa - great blog - but blowtorches?

Sawdustguy
03-20-2006, 01:31 PM
Did the KCBS change the rules to wood, charcoal or blowtorches?:wink: :biggrin:

Bigmista
03-20-2006, 01:36 PM
That was a new one on me too. But he wanted to carmelize the sugar on the ribs before he added another layer of sauce. It was a nice balance to the ancho chiles in the rub.

Bigmista
03-20-2006, 01:37 PM
Did the KCBS change the rules to wood, charcoal or blowtorches?:wink: :biggrin:

I don't know if it is legal or not. Anyone want to jump in with a clarification?

The_Kapn
03-20-2006, 01:39 PM
That was a new one on me too. But he wanted to carmelize the sugar on the ribs before he added another layer of sauce. It was a nice balance to the ancho chiles in the rub.

I do not go offsite to follow these things--just me.
But, using a gas fired blowtorch is a technique that really needs to be thought through.
Asking for trouble IMHO.
FWIW

TIM

YankeeBBQ
03-20-2006, 01:46 PM
Where are you competing ? Are you sure stuffing is allowed ? Most KCBS comps stuffing is not allowed and that includes the sausage category.

Chicken
I don't like the postage stamp skin.

Ribs
Need sauce in my opinion. Blowtorches are not allowed. If someone sees you using one, your gonna get dq'd.

Pork
Needs Sauce

Brisket
I suggest you seperate the point and the flat . Put slices of flat in the box and if you want to put point in, chop it up like burnt ends.

Steve

Bigmista
03-20-2006, 03:28 PM
Where are you competing ? Are you sure stuffing is allowed ? Most KCBS comps stuffing is not allowed and that includes the sausage category.

Chicken
I don't like the postage stamp skin.

Ribs
Need sauce in my opinion. Blowtorches are not allowed. If someone sees you using one, your gonna get dq'd.

Pork
Needs Sauce

Brisket
I suggest you seperate the point and the flat . Put slices of flat in the box and if you want to put point in, chop it up like burnt ends.

Steve

The sausage are for a "Southwest Anything butt" category.

I think I will separate the point and flat on the brisket but am I the only one who's flats are only 1/2" to 1" thick?

MrsMista
03-21-2006, 11:59 PM
I'm so glad my husband has all of you for advice and feedback because all I can do most days is smack my lips and rub my belly.

tommykendall
03-22-2006, 05:18 AM
The sausage are for a "Southwest Anything butt" category.

I think I will separate the point and flat on the brisket but am I the only one who's flats are only 1/2" to 1" thick?

You should ask the meat cutter to let you look through whatever cases they have in the back and pick your slab. There's usually ony 1 or 2 per case that I'm interested in.

Bigmista
03-22-2006, 12:01 PM
Do you have a meat cutter that you like in the area?