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View Full Version : The new (again) revised pork rule for 2014


Slamdunkpro
07-11-2013, 09:55 AM
Here's the latest incarnation of the pork rule as approved by the KCBS BoD last night:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.Discuss

smokeisgood
07-11-2013, 10:04 AM
I guess it depends on what the definition of "cooked" is.....

columbia1
07-11-2013, 10:04 AM
I like it, it will allow us to set our sauce on the MM and chunks without dragging the whole butt back to the pit

roksmith
07-11-2013, 10:17 AM
I suppose I see what they are trying to do with it, but I don't see any way of wording it that will not cause confusion and/or allow for "creative interpretation". Make folks show up with whole butts or shoulders, and cook them how they want... let the judging sort it out.

Podge
07-11-2013, 10:43 AM
I think this rule is clear to me, and nothing wrong with it as far as i'm concerned. Cooked meat to me, is at a temperature that is safe to consume as-is (may not be tender, but safe).. cooked pork as per the USDA is 145. This is what I will use as the definition of cooked.

when does this new rule take effect?

G$
07-11-2013, 10:45 AM
sigh.

Rub'n Wood BBQ
07-11-2013, 10:46 AM
I do not have the rules in front of me, but I would guess it is similar to brisket now?

MAP
07-11-2013, 11:12 AM
They should have done this latest virson but left the 5lb minnium in as well.

With the rule as it is written, I wounder when some online meat source is going to start marketing just the money muscle in a 3 pack cryovac

fnbish
07-11-2013, 11:17 AM
"PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."


So I read this as the money muscle still has to be attached when it starts cooking. Is that correct? If so, it says once cooked stuff can be separated. What defines "cooked"? A specific temp? I thought the big change was that people could just be cooking money muscles completely separate and not have to wait till the whole butt is "cooked".

Either way doesn't really matter to me. Just wanting to know what they mean :-P.

MAP
07-11-2013, 11:20 AM
"PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."


So I read this as the money muscle still has to be attached when it starts cooking. Is that correct? If so, it says once cooked stuff can be separated. What defines "cooked"? A specific temp?
It all comes down to interpretation. "Well Fark after I trimmed this sucker down all I was left with was the MM"

Slamdunkpro
07-11-2013, 11:22 AM
"PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."


So I read this as the money muscle still has to be attached when it starts cooking. Is that correct? If so, it says once cooked stuff can be separated. What defines "cooked"? A specific temp? I thought the big change was that people could just be cooking money muscles completely separate and not have to wait till the whole butt is "cooked".

Either way doesn't really matter to me. Just wanting to know what they mean :-P.

Not really. There is no longer a minimum cook weight. "Hey, I trimmed my butt and all that was left was the money muscle!"

carlyle
07-11-2013, 11:26 AM
As an organizer, the new version seems to add a bit of clarity about what is permitted.

Since some teams were cooking 2 butts, one for the MM one to pull, it will eliminate that extra butt. Unless you were doing 2 anyway.

So I like what I see as another step in the right direction. First new version was the first step, this version seems like just a clarification on intent. IMO.

Scottie
07-11-2013, 11:39 AM
I don't think the problem is the word "cooked". The problem is the word "discretion"...

Personally, I believe it was a waste of time. It opens the door....

fnbish
07-11-2013, 11:39 AM
Not really. There is no longer a minimum cook weight. "Hey, I trimmed my butt and all that was left was the money muscle!"

Yeah and that makes sense, but their is still ambiguity as to what they consider "cooked". If you can get around they "cooked" wording by trimming to just the MM then why have that in there?

Lets say I want to just cook a MM and during the cook I want to separate the MM, then by the rules before I separate any part of that MM and return it to the smoker it must be "cooked". So KCBS still needs to define cooked. Granted that is a devils advocate example, but still would need clarification by KCBS :becky:.

Ford
07-11-2013, 11:40 AM
I think this rule is clear to me, and nothing wrong with it as far as i'm concerned. Cooked meat to me, is at a temperature that is safe to consume as-is (may not be tender, but safe).. cooked pork as per the USDA is 145. This is what I will use as the definition of cooked.

when does this new rule take effect?

Jan 2014. I asked Jeff on Facebook and you can remove the mm when at temp you want and return rest to pit to finish. Then can sauce mm later and put back on. Jut don't let it go below 140 while holding. He said perfectly legal.

roksmith
07-11-2013, 11:53 AM
There are a lot of holes in this rule. Cooking the pork pretty much any way you wish could be considered "by the letter" so why not get rid of the rule entirely.
Pretty sure their intent it so allow you to fully cook your pork whole then return parts of it to your pit to set the sauce, but with this rule, you aren't required to cook the whole butt or fully cook it before separating.

sdbbq1234
07-11-2013, 12:24 PM
As a judge, I am having a hard time thinking about seeing a box with just MM in it. It would almost be like seeing a box with just burnt ends.

I guess it would be "ok", but I think a box with other parts of the item would better represent the overall cook, and their ability to cook it.

The rule seemed fine the way it was. Don't think I'll change, but, time will tell (not that I am a major competitor in any catagory, but I plan on getting there :mrgreen: )

Just my 2 cents...........

wallace

Fat Freddy
07-11-2013, 12:41 PM
As a judge, I am having a hard time thinking about seeing a box with just MM in it. It would almost be like seeing a box with just burnt ends.

wallace

The few times I have judged the last couple of years, I have seen way more boxes with just sliced MM than I have MM and pulled.

sdbbq1234
07-11-2013, 12:44 PM
The few times I have judged the last couple of years, I have seen way more boxes with just sliced MM than I have MM and pulled.


Man, I guess times are a changing..... Bummer.

It has been about 2 years since we judged.

wallace

Ford
07-11-2013, 01:05 PM
When I cook FBA I usually put pulled, mm and tubes in the box. Maybe even chunks. Need to cook 4 butts to get product. In kcbs I usually do mm and pulled or chunks. This rule change only impacts cooking methods not what goes in the box.

Podge
07-11-2013, 01:06 PM
I had been just putting in pulled and have done fine.

BMerrill
07-11-2013, 01:43 PM
As a judge, I am having a hard time thinking about seeing a box with just MM in it. It would almost be like seeing a box with just burnt ends.

I guess it would be "ok", but I think a box with other parts of the item would better represent the overall cook, and their ability to cook it.

The rule seemed fine the way it was. Don't think I'll change, but, time will tell (not that I am a major competitor in any catagory, but I plan on getting there :mrgreen: )

Just my 2 cents...........

wallace

Judges should be judging what is presented and only what is presented and not making assumtions about why something is or isn't in the box and scoring the entry based upon their assumptions.

We have all heard these statements and 100's more like them.
"I marked it down because there weren't any burnt ends."
"Thick sliced brisket, must be over done."
"No skin on the chicken? Guess they can't cook chicken skin"
"No sliced money muscle? a 2 point deduction"

Smokedelic
07-11-2013, 01:57 PM
So we go from pork that must weigh at least 5 lbs. that doesn't have to be cooked whole to pork that has to be cooked whole but doesn't have to weigh at least 5 lbs.?

What the fark Board? :doh:

Bentley
07-11-2013, 02:01 PM
It seems that it all comes down to the MM and whether it is parted, cooked separately, only MM is cooked, blab, blab, blab, etc, etc, etc...I have never understood the issue at all? As long as Any team can do what Any other team can do, it just makes no sense to me. So the MM is some Golden piece of meat that teams win with, great, all have the opportunity to do it!

What am I missing?

Pigs on Fire
07-11-2013, 02:07 PM
I really don't understand all this panty-wadding over this 'new' rule.

If I thought that having the meat from 4 money muscles was going to help me get a top-5 pork call every contest, I wouldn't think twice about spending another $40 in meat to guarantee a call.

I could trim all 4 butts down to where the MM was barely attached, I could be cooking legally (within old rules) and have basically the same thing as all you who are worried about some door being opened think is going to happen.

A person with a creative mind can work within the rules and produce a high quality product while all the whiners are sitting around wondering who's doing what...

Skip
07-11-2013, 02:15 PM
I suppose I see what they are trying to do with it, but I don't see any way of wording it that will not cause confusion and/or allow for "creative interpretation". Make folks show up with whole butts or shoulders, and cook them how they want... let the judging sort it out.


I have to disagree. The skill set in cooking pork shoulder is being able to take the whole piece and cook it well. Lets face it the original intent was a whole shoulder. Unfortunately finding a whole shoulder isn't always the easiest thing so they allowed the two portions but never intended to allow the piece to be trimmed into smaller portions to get the cook you want. By allowing any technique you dumb down the skills needed and make it "easybake" BBQ.

sdbbq1234
07-11-2013, 02:19 PM
Judges should be judging what is presented and only what is presented and not making assumtions about why something is or isn't in the box and scoring the entry based upon their assumptions.

We have all heard these statements and 100's more like them.
"I marked it down because there weren't any burnt ends."
"Thick sliced brisket, must be over done."
"No skin on the chicken? Guess they can't cook chicken skin"
"No sliced money muscle? a 2 point deduction"

Yes, yes, I know. And be rest assured, that is the way we judge/score. We do NOT score up or down based on "missing things", or the like.

We score the way we want to be scored!

You wont hear any of those statements from us.

wallace

ique
07-11-2013, 02:23 PM
They should have done this latest virson but left the 5lb minnium in as well.

With the rule as it is written, I wounder when some online meat source is going to start marketing just the money muscle in a 3 pack cryovac

A money muscle would not pass inspection based on this rule. The rule says "whole" pork butt. No one could consider a money muscle being a whole pork butt. That said, agree that keeping the 5lb rule would make it clearer.

I do like the general direction where cook it whole but its OK to place cooked portions back on the pit.

fnbish
07-11-2013, 02:26 PM
I really don't understand all this panty-wadding over this 'new' rule.

If I thought that having the meat from 4 money muscles was going to help me get a top-5 pork call every contest, I wouldn't think twice about spending another $40 in meat to guarantee a call.

I could trim all 4 butts down to where the MM was barely attached, I could be cooking legally (within old rules) and have basically the same thing as all you who are worried about some door being opened think is going to happen.

A person with a creative mind can work within the rules and produce a high quality product while all the whiners are sitting around wondering who's doing what...

I think part of it is folks who don't like the new rule in general. And as long as the rule is the same for everyone it doesn't really matter to me. Not a big deal.

The other part of the discussion I see is where folks question the new rule because is isn't very clear or modified/changed/updated in such a way that makes more sense than the previous rule.

Skip
07-11-2013, 02:28 PM
A person with a creative mind can work within the rules and produce a high quality product while all the whiners are sitting around wondering who's doing what...

Thats not creativity thats exploitation of a rule in a manner not intended. Butterflying the money muscle down to a single strand attachment is not cooking whole in anyones book. Its not creative and the reason we are in this 4 year battle over the rule.

Alexa RnQ
07-11-2013, 02:42 PM
http://www.divaherself.com/computertragedy.gif

DCFIREMANN
07-11-2013, 02:44 PM
"PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."


So I read this as the money muscle still has to be attached when it starts cooking. Is that correct? If so, it says once cooked stuff can be separated. What defines "cooked"? A specific temp? I thought the big change was that people could just be cooking money muscles completely separate and not have to wait till the whole butt is "cooked".

Either way doesn't really matter to me. Just wanting to know what they mean :-P.

That's how I read it!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Skip
07-11-2013, 02:44 PM
Ok reading this over I realize something quite interesting. This rule seems to be very similar to the BBQ-Brethren rule set which has served its event flawlessly in the past few years. Many cooks like the extra clarity and the fact that the rule is still a guideline rather than a directive. Many of the original KCBS rules as well as the BBQ-Brethren rules were/are written as general guideline which assumes there is integrity among teams/cooks to participate in a fair manner. The previous inceptions of the pork rule seemed to call into question all the team integrity rather then offer them a proper course of action.
I think they took a good direction here, albeit without the 5 lb rule which probably should have remained.
Let me see if I can find the brethren rule set and post a link. I think they are nearly the same.



Pork
Pork is defined as a Whole Shoulder, Butt, or Boston Butt, or Picnic.

Starting weight must be 5.25 lb. minimum. Tenderloins, Loins and pre-trimmed "money muscles" are not permitted. Pork must be cooked whole to 145 degrees Fahrenheit, after which it may be manipulated and finished at the cook’s discretion. For health safety, a temperature of 145 must be maintained until delivery to the judges.

Pork may be submitted as a combination of styles or single style; such as Pulled, Sliced, Chopped or Diced. Bark, the outer layer of the pork, is also acceptable as part of your entry.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/rules.pdf <~~~if anyone wants to see more.

As you can see there is a bit more wording but the intent is the same.

deguerre
07-11-2013, 02:46 PM
...dumb down the skills needed and make it "easybake" BBQ.

Shhhhhhh...we already know you shigged NTHOLE's secret cooking method but you don't have to be broadcastiong it like that...

Skip
07-11-2013, 02:48 PM
http://www.divaherself.com/computertragedy.gif

???

Did we all miss something? Or just me?

Skip
07-11-2013, 02:51 PM
Shhhhhhh...we already know you shigged NTHOLE's secret cooking method but you don't have to be broadcastiong it like that...

I must be so good at shiggin that I can do it without knowing and on people I don't know personally at contests i didn't attend :razz::razz::razz::grin:

Pigs on Fire
07-11-2013, 03:00 PM
Hey Skip.... I ain't in a 4-year battle over the rule. My team cooks pork following the current rules and will continue to do so. From reading stuff here and seeing how many butts many teams cook, we probably don't follow the procedure many to and I'm willing to bet we put similar portions in the box.

We've done fairly well in the pork category over the last 24-30 months, I don't see much changing in our camp....new rule or not.

Carry on, I'll continue to watch the show from the bleachers when I'm bored.

Smokedelic
07-11-2013, 03:07 PM
Pork
Pork is defined as a Whole Shoulder, Butt, or Boston Butt, or Picnic.
Starting weight must be 5.25 lb. minimum. Tenderloins, Loins and pre-trimmed "money muscles" are not permitted. Pork must be cooked whole to 145 degrees Fahrenheit, after which it may be manipulated and finished at the cook’s discretion. For health safety, a temperature of 145 must be maintained until delivery to the judges.
Pork may be submitted as a combination of styles or single style; such as Pulled, Sliced, Chopped or Diced.
Bark, the outer layer of the pork, is also acceptable as part of your entry.

Psssst.....KCBS Board....look how easy this is. :eusa_clap

Nudge....nudge...

Nordy
07-11-2013, 03:10 PM
Basically everyone will interpret the rule as they wish... 90% of the KCBS rules are not enforceable anyway... Cheaters will always cheat.

The rule is straightforward. Cook a WHOLE piece of meat. Once it's cooked do whatever you want with it within food safety guidelines.

TRIMMING does not equal PARTING.

TailGateJoecom
07-11-2013, 04:14 PM
A money muscle would not pass inspection based on this rule. The rule says "whole" pork butt. No one could consider a money muscle being a whole pork butt. That said, agree that keeping the 5lb rule would make it clearer.

I do like the general direction where cook it whole but its OK to place cooked portions back on the pit.

Here's the rule:

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

Now, the rule states it must be cooked "whole" but "after trimming." Now , with no weight limit, it could be argued that trimming the butt down to just the MM would be allowed. There is nothing stating how big the butt needs to be, or that the butt needs to be a whole butt. Heck, if I trim anything edible from a butt, or a brisket, or my spare ribs, am I not cooking a less-than-whole piece of meat? A competitor wanting to not play within the spirit of the rule but instead wanting to play semantics could just say he took the butt and trimmed off the part he didn't want to use, everything except the MM portion, and then cooked the remainder as a whole to 145, and then split the MM in half to get more bark.

So, now what is the definition of trimming? lol

Untraceable
07-11-2013, 04:19 PM
Got to watch that weight rule with the crap farmland has been putting out. Untrimmed 4lb 8.9oz garbage

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b616/supertraining/null_zps51f3e785.jpg

TailGateJoecom
07-11-2013, 04:25 PM
Basically everyone will interpret the rule as they wish... 90% of the KCBS rules are not enforceable anyway... Cheaters will always cheat.

The rule is straightforward. Cook a WHOLE piece of meat. Once it's cooked do whatever you want with it within food safety guidelines.

TRIMMING does not equal PARTING.

True, trimming in my mind is cutting away the excess and parts I don't want to use. Parting is taking a piece I want to use, and separating it into smaller parts.

Now, If i want to just use the MM portion of the butt, wouldn't trimming and tossing the rest of the butt follow my above definition and also the wording of the rules? Keep in mind the rule says "after trimming, pork shall be cooked whole." and that MM is pork butt.

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand the spirit of the rule and I would go with that, but I am just pointing out how the wording of the rule opens up a can of worms.

Skip
07-11-2013, 04:57 PM
Hey Skip.... I ain't in a 4-year battle over the rule. My team cooks pork following the current rules and will continue to do so. From reading stuff here and seeing how many butts many teams cook, we probably don't follow the procedure many to and I'm willing to bet we put similar portions in the box.

We've done fairly well in the pork category over the last 24-30 months, I don't see much changing in our camp....new rule or not.

Carry on, I'll continue to watch the show from the bleachers when I'm bored.

Hey Pigs. I understand you aren't but the original rule was called into question because people were separating after the cook as well as butterflying the whole butt down and doing what you described. That is the reason I made the statement about the 4 year battle. Not saying you started it. :grin:

Skip
07-11-2013, 05:02 PM
Basically everyone will interpret the rule as they wish... 90% of the KCBS rules are not enforceable anyway... Cheaters will always cheat.

The rule is straightforward. Cook a WHOLE piece of meat. Once it's cooked do whatever you want with it within food safety guidelines.

TRIMMING does not equal PARTING.

Many times cheaters are found out soon enough. They act suspicious and the group around them is too competitive to not become suspicious.

That depends on the definition of trimming. If the trim involves removing distinguishable muscle groups in the shoulder, butt or picnic you aren't trimming anymore. You are manipulating the piece of meat. I think this is why the "cooked whole" portion of the definition was reintroduced.

Hawg Father of Seoul
07-11-2013, 05:10 PM
The only part I don't understand is where they define what I can turn in.

WTF

More complicated, not less.

Skip
07-11-2013, 05:17 PM
Here's the rule:

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

Now, the rule states it must be cooked "whole" but "after trimming." Now , with no weight limit, it could be argued that trimming the butt down to just the MM would be allowed. There is nothing stating how big the butt needs to be, or that the butt needs to be a whole butt. Heck, if I trim anything edible from a butt, or a brisket, or my spare ribs, am I not cooking a less-than-whole piece of meat? A competitor wanting to not play within the spirit of the rule but instead wanting to play semantics could just say he took the butt and trimmed off the part he didn't want to use, everything except the MM portion, and then cooked the remainder as a whole to 145, and then split the MM in half to get more bark.

So, now what is the definition of trimming? lol

By changing the cut of meat to accommodate your wishes you aren't trimming. You are butchering. Trimming is removing the untidy or inedible portions of the meat to prepare it for the cook not to create a piece of meat you want. If you were asked to cook a rack of lamb or pork crown roast and trimmed it to chops it would be wrong. If it comes off the pit as a piece if meat that doesn't resemble the one you are supposed to cook no semantics in the world will change that.

Skip
07-11-2013, 05:19 PM
Got to watch that weight rule with the crap farmland has been putting out. Untrimmed 4lb 8.9oz garbage

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b616/supertraining/null_zps51f3e785.jpg

Looks like a decent piece to eat though :)

Skip
07-11-2013, 05:25 PM
The only part I don't understand is where they define what I can turn in.

WTF

More complicated, not less.


Its the last sentence of the rule. Something along the lines "can be turned in as pulled chopped sliced or and combination..."

loco_engr
07-11-2013, 06:08 PM
I'm confused! :doh:

Muzzlebrake
07-11-2013, 08:28 PM
By allowing any technique you dumb down the skills needed and make it "easybake" BBQ.

Like the other 3 categories?

This rule seems to be very similar to the BBQ-Brethren rule set which has served its event flawlessly in the past few years. Many cooks like the extra clarity and the fact that the rule is still a guideline rather than a directive.

So if its a guideline then what are the repercussions for not following it? Isn't a guideline nothing more than a suggestion?

How do you enforce the 145* temperature? If a rep doesn't come and temp each one before they are removed aren't we once again just relying on the integrity of the individual? In this instance the KCBS BoD decided that imposing a minimum temperature would be unenforceable so they left it out.

Hawg Father of Seoul
07-11-2013, 09:01 PM
Its the last sentence of the rule. Something along the lines "can be turned in as pulled chopped sliced or and combination..."

The part I do not understand is why they think this is necessary. They do not pull a Bubba Gump and list all the ways you can turn in chicken.

landarc
07-11-2013, 09:26 PM
I liked the old rule better. I would have preferred they left the pork rule alone.


And change the brisket rule. Muaaahaahaaa ...meh

CBQ
07-11-2013, 09:29 PM
How do you enforce the 145* temperature? If a rep doesn't come and temp each one before they are removed aren't we once again just relying on the integrity of the individual?

Sean is right - we all know reps are not walked around and looking in people's pits. There is no guarantee that what someone shows during meat inspection is even going in the pit.

The rules will never overcome that unless we want an army of auditors roaming the cook sites.

To me, the purpose of the rules is to define an even playing field by which we all compete. It's up to the integrity of the teams to follow those.

The new rule more clearly defines what is intended. The intention is clear - you have to cook a whole cut of meat, but you can glaze, reheat, or cook bits of the whole cut to a different temp after cooking the basic piece whole.

If people want to wiggle out of that based on semantics, they will. They could cheat in a whole host of ways because cooks aren't watched that closely.

The other question is: how much of an advantage is it? If you can't win cooking a pork butt, is just cooking a money muscle really going to help you? I doubt it.

Skip
07-11-2013, 09:51 PM
Like the other 3 categories?

No not at all. Each category is its own animal. It would be comparing apples and oranges.

So if its a guideline then what are the repercussions for not following it? Isn't a guideline nothing more than a suggestion?

How do you enforce the 145* temperature? If a rep doesn't come and temp each one before they are removed aren't we once again just relying on the integrity of the individual? In this instance the KCBS BoD decided that imposing a minimum temperature would be unenforceable so they left it out.

Its all a guideline. The 145 degree was a food safety number to give those who would question the definition of cooked in the rule.
A guideline can also be a standard operating procedure upon which each team is asked to follow. Without constant oversight the rule set is not there to be enforced but rather followed. Once the competitor loses their integrity the rule set falls apart.

BBQchef33
07-11-2013, 10:02 PM
No not at all. Each category is its own animal. It would be comparing apples and oranges.



Its all a guideline. The 145 degree was a food safety number to give those who would question the definition of cooked in the rule.
A guideline can also be a standard operating procedure upon which each team is asked to follow. Without constant oversight the rule set is not there to be enforced but rather followed. Once the competitor loses their integrity the rule set falls apart.


Exactly, the 145 was put in specifically to reinforce the safe serving temperature for those who say 'what does cooked mean'.

Muzzlebrake
07-11-2013, 10:11 PM
No not at all. Each category is its own animal. It would be comparing apples and oranges.

Its all a guideline. The 145 degree was a food safety number to give those who would question the definition of cooked in the rule.
A guideline can also be a standard operating procedure upon which each team is asked to follow. Without constant oversight the rule set is not there to be enforced but rather followed. Once the competitor loses their integrity the rule set falls apart.

You really have me confused now. We're going to have to hash this out over a few Skippy Shakes :rockon:

Being able to part your pork is dumbing down contest to what was it "easy bake BBQ" but cooking store bought pieces of chicken somehow demonstrates a higher level of skill?

I thought you used the Brethren rule as an example of something that gave the cook a course of action that did not rely on their integrity? I still think its going to rely on a competitors integrity and willingness to abide by the rules. There aren't going to be reps verifying your pork is 145* @ the BoTB anymore than there are going to be KCBS reps making sure you don't return separated pork to your cooker at the Royal. Both are almost unenforceable rules that rely on cooks staying within the guidelines.

Like Chris said, cheaters are going to cheat. Myself, like the majority of folks here, don't feel the need to.

Skip
07-11-2013, 10:31 PM
You really have me confused now. We're going to have to hash this out over a few Skippy Shakes :rockon:

Being able to part your pork is dumbing down contest to what was it "easy bake BBQ" but cooking store bought pieces of chicken somehow demonstrates a higher level of skill?

I thought you used the Brethren rule as an example of something that gave the cook a course of action that did not rely on their integrity? I still think its going to rely on a competitors integrity and willingness to abide by the rules. There aren't going to be reps verifying your pork is 145* @ the BoTB anymore than there are going to be KCBS reps making sure you don't return separated pork to your cooker at the Royal. Both are almost unenforceable rules that rely on cooks staying within the guidelines.

Like Chris said, cheaters are going to cheat. Myself, like the majority of folks here, don't feel the need to.


Yeah we are on the same page. Chicken has been shaped by the competitor unfortunately. Thigh nuggets in unnatural shapes that have taught the average judge to have an expectation. I would like to see a light and dark requirement to exhibit more skill. Although when you think about it the use of the chicken thigh is no different then the beef brisket or pork shoulder. Each is a specific portion of a whole animal. Oh and I can't wait for a shake or 4 :rockon:

Skip
07-11-2013, 10:39 PM
The part I do not understand is why they think this is necessary. They do not pull a Bubba Gump and list all the ways you can turn in chicken.

I think the reason for that is the idea of 6 portions. Most everyone slices brisket and chicken parts make 6 easy just like ribs. Slices would be the first idea ofr pork when considering that. As well it may have originally been a tip of the hat to the different regional preps.

Haastyle
07-12-2013, 12:41 AM
Doesn't effect us...

Q-Dat
07-12-2013, 01:10 AM
I wish they'd just change the name of the category to "pulled pork". POOF!!! All confusion gone instantly!

Can I make the precious little medallions? Yes. Do I find it to be silly? Yes, but apparently there are many who get a warm/fuzzy from sliced. To each their own.

Pole D
07-12-2013, 09:50 AM
Doesn't matter. I'll over cook it either way!

Pigs on Fire
07-12-2013, 10:00 AM
The 'idea' of 6 portions is so that each judge gets a sample of their own.

Skip
07-12-2013, 02:56 PM
I wish they'd just change the name of the category to "pulled pork". POOF!!! All confusion gone instantly!

Can I make the precious little medallions? Yes. Do I find it to be silly? Yes, but apparently there are many who get a warm/fuzzy from sliced. To each their own.

Strangely enough the original KCBS participants probably would've considered pulled pork an overdone piece of meat and only given you some in similar fashion to bark pieces. KC prep was generally slices.

Skip
07-12-2013, 02:58 PM
The 'idea' of 6 portions is so that each judge gets a sample of their own.

Correct and for some competitors a bed of pulled or chopped would not fulfill 6 distinguishable portions as dictated by the rules. So a cook may refrain from using pulled or chopped for fear of disqualification. So the clarity offers them an answer.

Bigmista
07-12-2013, 09:08 PM
I am really disappointed that so many of my brethren would go out of their way to find a loophole. You all know what the rule says and what it intended. If not, I have been giving you all way too much credit. I mention the BBQ-Brethren and the BBQ family everyday. I talk about the love, honor, respect and integrity that you all have and then I come here and see this.

"How can I beat the system?"
"Johnny's cheating, Can I cheat too?"
"Why won't everyone do it the way I want to do it?"

For Pete's sake MAN UP!
Buy a Pork Butt. Cook it the right way according to the rules. Turn in your best product and leave it up to the judges.

Don't worry about what the guy next door is doing. Do your best and have fun doing it.

Jeez! Quit whining! We get to BBQ! A lot! Enjoy it and quit looking for reasons to be pissed off.

I'm gonna go outside and cook 2 pork butts. And I don't give a damn about the money muscle. It's gonna be pulled like the rest of the butt and it's going to make a lot of people happy. If that ain't why you are bbqing, you need a new hobby.

TailGateJoecom
07-13-2013, 12:35 AM
I am really disappointed that so many of my brethren would go out of their way to find a loophole. You all know what the rule says and what it intended. If not, I have been giving you all way too much credit. I mention the BBQ-Brethren and the BBQ family everyday. I talk about the love, honor, respect and integrity that you all have and then I come here and see this.


HOLD ON A SEC. Just because someone (like myself earlier in this thread) can look at a rule, see how its poorly written to allow loopholes, and bring up the possibilities for gaming the system within the poorly worded rule doesn't mean:
1) i plan on using such loopholes
2) participate in or condone cheating
3) compete in any way other than in the spirit of true sportsmanship and ideals shared both by the majority of members here and majority of competitors in the BBQ community.

Now, as someone who brought up and discussed loopholes under this rule in this thread, I am one of these people you are talking about here. I think maybe you went a little far in pointing a judgmental finger at some of us. :nono:

Q-Dat
07-13-2013, 02:16 AM
Strangely enough the original KCBS participants probably would've considered pulled pork an overdone piece of meat and only given you some in similar fashion to bark pieces. KC prep was generally slices.

And I see sliced pork butt as meat that came up short of reaching its full potential. Give me pulled and chunked any day. Its amazing how different regional likes can be.

I guess people like what they like, and hey its all good. I certainly don't want to dump on someone for their preferred BBQ style.

Hawg Father of Seoul
07-13-2013, 02:31 AM
And I see sliced pork butt as meat that came up short of reaching its full potential. Give me pulled and chunked any day. Its amazing how different regional likes can be.

I guess people like what they like, and hey its all good. I certainly don't want to dump on someone for their preferred BBQ style.

If we are ever at the same comp, I want you to try my pork turn in. It is not the best, but it may change your mind. When I tried Bubba's pork turn in it changed my life.

Q-Dat
07-13-2013, 02:51 AM
If we are ever at the same comp, I want you to try my pork turn in. It is not the best, but it may change your mind. When I tried Bubba's pork turn in it changed my life.

Would be happy to! Do you cook any LA comps? I can't afford to travel very far to compete so it has kept me from getting to try some things. I am not one whose mind can't be changed.

MikeJ65
07-13-2013, 07:14 AM
I think that the KCBS board has an agreement that if a proposed rule change doesn't generate at least a ten page thread on BBQ Brethren, it's not worth doing.

Pappy Q
07-13-2013, 10:15 AM
They should have done this latest virson but left the 5lb minnium in as well.

With the rule as it is written, I wounder when some online meat source is going to start marketing just the money muscle in a 3 pack cryovac

Look up Pork n Podge Butcher Shop on Facebook. They currently offer a 5lb money muscle.

Rookie'48
07-13-2013, 03:10 PM
I think that the KCBS board has an agreement that if a proposed rule change doesn't generate at least a ten page thread on BBQ Brethren, it's not worth doing.

Awwww shucks! You found us out :doh:.

The above ^^^^^ is pure-D sarcasm for those who didn't catch it at first :mrgreen:.

Jeff_in_KC
07-13-2013, 06:14 PM
HOLD ON A SEC. Just because someone (like myself earlier in this thread) can look at a rule, see how its poorly written to allow loopholes, and bring up the possibilities for gaming the system within the poorly worded rule doesn't mean:
1) i plan on using such loopholes
2) participate in or condone cheating
3) compete in any way other than in the spirit of true sportsmanship and ideals shared both by the majority of members here and majority of competitors in the BBQ community.

Now, as someone who brought up and discussed loopholes under this rule in this thread, I am one of these people you are talking about here. I think maybe you went a little far in pointing a judgmental finger at some of us. :nono:

Poorly written? Seriously? How about YOU join our rules committee that includes with Phil and Neil and let's straighten it out. You have the answers apparently and you're withholding them from all of KCBS.

Smokedelic
07-13-2013, 11:47 PM
Poorly written? Seriously? How about YOU join our rules committee that includes with Phil and Neil and let's straighten it out. You have the answers apparently and you're withholding them from all of KCBS.
Really Jeff? Maybe you could just get it right and be done with it?

I'm not on the rules committee, but I'll give it a shot...

What's wrong with requiring you start out with a 5 lb. minimum piece of pork shoulder, butt, or picnic, and cook it whole, and then allow it to be returned to the cooker after it's parted?

Seriously....how hard is that?

Maybe third time is a charm?

TailGateJoecom
07-14-2013, 12:24 AM
Poorly written? Seriously? How about YOU join our rules committee that includes with Phil and Neil and let's straighten it out. You have the answers apparently and you're withholding them from all of KCBS.

If people can read the rules and come up with some easy and simple ways to circumvent them and go against the spirit of the rule while staying within the letter of the rule, then yeah, I would say it maybe needs to be written a little better. Not trying to make that personal with anyone involved on the board. And not trying to be on any committee, I want to cook and compete, not sit on a board. I do think it would be pretty easy to take what was said in this thread, figure out everyone's issues with the new rule, and then incorporate that into making the rule better.

In the end I am sure everyone here, including you since I guess you are taking the time to create these rules, wants competitve bbq to grow and prosper with competitors who exhibit sportsmanship and a competitive nature while being a fun family friendly atmosphere where everyone plays by the rules. No need to get defensive.

TailGateJoecom
07-14-2013, 12:28 AM
Really Jeff? Maybe you could just get it right and be done with it?

I'm not on the rules committee, but I'll give it a shot...

What's wrong with requiring you start out with a 5 lb. minimum piece of pork shoulder, butt, or picnic, and cook it whole, and then allow it to be returned to the cooker after it's parted?

Seriously....how hard is that?

Maybe third time is a charm?

Exactly, my beef with the new rule is that it is vague where it says "after trimming must be cooked whole." We all trim unwanted parts off of our product, ribs being an excellent example. Who is to say I can't take a but, trim it down to pretty much money muscle, and then cook that whole. Money muscle is pork shoulder. Either define trimming to keep it from being twisted into cutting down the butt in the matter I illustrated, or make there be a weight minimum after trimming.

Is what I am saying crazy??

Jeff_in_KC
07-14-2013, 10:36 AM
Really Jeff? Maybe you could just get it right and be done with it?

I'm not on the rules committee, but I'll give it a shot...

What's wrong with requiring you start out with a 5 lb. minimum piece of pork shoulder, butt, or picnic, and cook it whole, and then allow it to be returned to the cooker after it's parted?

Seriously....how hard is that?

Maybe third time is a charm?

Why do we need a weight limit on pork? Give me one good reason. If you can, maybe we better add weight to all four categories. If so, lets make brisket at about 14 pounds (no separating point and flat!); maybe chicken whole at 3 pounds (no pieces); Ribs? No St Louis spares - full slabs and at least five pounds only!

G$
07-14-2013, 12:43 PM
Why do we need a weight limit on pork? Give me one good reason. If you can, maybe we better add weight to all four categories. If so, lets make brisket at about 14 pounds (no separating point and flat!); maybe chicken whole at 3 pounds (no pieces); Ribs? No St Louis spares - full slabs and at least five pounds only!

Many people feel that part of the fabric of the definition of Barbeque is large cuts, so those folks support using weight as a criteria in certain categories, like pork.

Some people would prefer whole (or half) chickens too for that matter.

Also, the "better add it to all four categories" argument seems specious to me. They are, by definition, different cuts, so they may, by definition, require different rules.

drbbq
07-14-2013, 03:43 PM
Why do we need a weight limit on pork? Give me one good reason. If you can, maybe we better add weight to all four categories. If so, lets make brisket at about 14 pounds (no separating point and flat!); maybe chicken whole at 3 pounds (no pieces); Ribs? No St Louis spares - full slabs and at least five pounds only!

Sounds like real BBQ to me. Let's do it.

Rookie'48
07-14-2013, 04:11 PM
. . . I do think it would be pretty easy to take what was said in this thread, figure out everyone's issues with the new rule, and then incorporate that into making the rule better. . . .

I haven't talked to Jeff about this but it seems that he did just what you mentioned after the huge thread that was posted after the first attempt at changing / fixing the parting rule earlier this year.

It looks like he took a lot of comments and suggestions from that thread into consideration when he wrote the newest version.

By the way - last year I was the Chair of the Rules Committee so I'll take the blame / credit on that version. But remember, whatever the rule is that gets passed (if any) it won't go into effect until the 2014 season. That means that there still is time to tweak it, but it will never satisfy everyone.

Q-Dat
07-14-2013, 05:18 PM
Sounds like real BBQ to me. Let's do it.

I'm in!!!

Scottie
07-14-2013, 06:33 PM
Really Jeff? Maybe you could just get it right and be done with it?

I'm not on the rules committee, but I'll give it a shot...

What's wrong with requiring you start out with a 5 lb. minimum piece of pork shoulder, butt, or picnic, and cook it whole, and then allow it to be returned to the cooker after it's parted?

Seriously....how hard is that?

Maybe third time is a charm?



Just to let you know.... This is how me and Todd decide to nominate people for the BOD. I'll work on a slogan . Mike in 2014!!!!

Smokedelic
07-15-2013, 09:34 AM
Why do we need a weight limit on pork? Give me one good reason. If you can, maybe we better add weight to all four categories. If so, lets make brisket at about 14 pounds (no separating point and flat!); maybe chicken whole at 3 pounds (no pieces); Ribs? No St Louis spares - full slabs and at least five pounds only!
There is no current requirement that the 3 meats other than pork be cooked whole, therefore there is no need for a weight requirement.

By requiring pork to be cooked whole, AFTER trimming, you need a minimum weight requirement in order to define how much can be reasonably trimmed. Without the minimum weight requirement, you potentially remove the "BBQ" aspect from the category.

The Rules committee, and the Board as a whole, approved a 5 lb. weight minimum in February, so I'm curious why there was a change in direction only 5 months later?

Smokedelic
07-15-2013, 09:36 AM
Just to let you know.... This is how me and Todd decide to nominate people for the BOD. I'll work on a slogan . Mike in 2014!!!!
No thanks....I'm good. :wink:

Kit R
07-15-2013, 12:32 PM
Don't worry about what the guy next door is doing. Do your best and have fun doing it.

Jeez! Quit whining! We get to BBQ! A lot! Enjoy it and quit looking for reasons to be pissed off.



I think this will be my new go-to response to every cockamamie thing I read/hear/see. Until I get screwed by a bunch of bad tables, that is.

OK that last sentence was a joke.

Slamdunkpro
07-15-2013, 12:44 PM
I think this will be my new go-to response to every cockamamie thing I read/hear/see. Until I get screwed by a bunch of bad tables, that is.

OK that last sentence was a joke.







or was it????????:behindsofa:

Jeff_in_KC
07-15-2013, 12:56 PM
There is no current requirement that the 3 meats other than pork be cooked whole, therefore there is no need for a weight requirement.

By requiring pork to be cooked whole, AFTER trimming, you need a minimum weight requirement in order to define how much can be reasonably trimmed. Without the minimum weight requirement, you potentially remove the "BBQ" aspect from the category.

The Rules committee, and the Board as a whole, approved a 5 lb. weight minimum in February, so I'm curious why there was a change in direction only 5 months later?

Same could be said about the other categories but it's not and no one is trying to quickly cook slices of brisket or individual rib bones.

Why the change five months later? Because people bitched then and didn't like it so we took suggestions and made changes to fine tune it. What I've learned is that it really doesn't matter what the rules say, that there will ALWAYS be people who are pissed off about it so we're better off just DOING THE BEST JOB WE CAN DO and let everything work out from there. And when my turn on the board is over, I'll let someone else try.

Smokedelic
07-15-2013, 01:22 PM
Same could be said about the other categories but it's not and no one is trying to quickly cook slices of brisket or individual rib bones.

Why the change five months later? Because people bitched then and didn't like it so we took suggestions and made changes to fine tune it. What I've learned is that it really doesn't matter what the rules say, that there will ALWAYS be people who are pissed off about it so we're better off just DOING THE BEST JOB WE CAN DO and let everything work out from there. And when my turn on the board is over, I'll let someone else try.
How can the same be said for the other categories when pork is the only category that has the requirement that it be cooked whole?

Smoke'n Ice
07-15-2013, 03:54 PM
A lot of history and AH's looking for loop holes went into the pork rule that currently exists. The simplest approach would be the defination and add must be cooked whole and untrimmed until an internal FDA serve safe temperature of 145 degree F. After it reaches this temperature you may do as you wish with the meat, to include parting, slicing, chopping, returning to the smoker, putting it in a cooler, etc. Once removed from the smoker the meat or parts of meat must be maintained at an FDA serve safe temperatue of 140 degrees or more prior to turn-in.

Jeff_in_KC
07-16-2013, 02:56 PM
How can the same be said for the other categories when pork is the only category that has the requirement that it be cooked whole?

Precisely! And no one is cooking pre-sliced brisket, individual ribs (best from each slab) or what have you. So why do you think people are going to cook little pieces of butt and if they do, why does it matter? That's probably the best question right there - why does it matter? If it's a part of a butt, does it really matter how small they trim it?

Hawg Father of Seoul
07-16-2013, 10:49 PM
Precisely! And no one is cooking pre-sliced brisket, individual ribs (best from each slab) or what have you. So why do you think people are going to cook little pieces of butt and if they do, why does it matter? That's probably the best question right there - why does it matter? If it's a part of a butt, does it really matter how small they trim it?

As long as every one knows the rules... I think you are doing a good job Jeff.

I'll vote for you again bro.

Scottie
07-16-2013, 11:02 PM
Precisely! And no one is cooking pre-sliced brisket, individual ribs (best from each slab) or what have you. So why do you think people are going to cook little pieces of butt and if they do, why does it matter? That's probably the best question right there - why does it matter? If it's a part of a butt, does it really matter how small they trim it?


OK. Seeing the can or worms is open.... we can do boneless chicken, butt and brisket... Change the stupid rule that ribs have to have bones!!! With your analogy, let's change that rule as well.....

Smokedelic
07-17-2013, 12:50 PM
That's probably the best question right there - why does it matter?

Tradition...which I think is one of the things you are supposedly preserving.

Scottie
07-17-2013, 02:07 PM
Bingo. To preserve and teach. Not roll over cause some folks can't serve warm pulled pork.

I for one appreciate Jeff for coming on here and addressing us. He could hide behind the computer, but he doesn't. Whether we agree on the rule or not. I respect what he does. So thank you Jeff.

Jeff_in_KC
07-20-2013, 02:08 PM
Tradition...which I think is one of the things you are supposedly preserving.

If we're preserving tradition, let's go back to cooking the categories that KCBS started with.

Smokedelic
07-21-2013, 12:38 AM
If we're preserving tradition, let's go back to cooking the categories that KCBS started with.
How is this new rule preserving tradition?

Limp Brisket
07-21-2013, 09:43 AM
It seems that the multiple manipulations of the pork rule was likely considered/started by a scenario such as this: A team is cooking their normal 8-10lb butt, they want to slice the MM but if they take the butt to, say, 195f the MM shreds when trying to slice it. If they temp the MM at 195f and pull the whole butt from the cooker the rest of the butts texture is not where they want it. Cake and eat it and whatnot.

Is it to facilitate (legalize) the MM to now be treated like a burnt end(s)? Or facilitate removal of the MM at a certain “sliceable" temp and return the rest of the butt to cooker to hit its target temp? Likely.

I don't know. What I do know is I hate the term Money Muscle now more than ever.